JI010
I	Can you share about the aims and objectives of the NGO?
R	This NGO started in 2004. The objectives with which this NGO is started is to preserve the greenery in Burlton Park. In 2004, this (Burlton Park) was barren land. There was only 20-30% of greenery in the area as compared to today. The local residents have decided to develop this into a beautiful green belt.
I	How many localities are there?
R	Approximately 15- 20 localities and 1 -1.5 lakh people live here.
I	So what is your role in the NGO? And what are the tasks and responsibilities?
R	We have adopted approximately 4 acres of land in 2006, which was barren land and developed this into a beautiful park. After that, a lot of people have come forward to develop various areas of Burlton Park.
I	You developed this park with the help of the Municipality? Or on your own?
R	The beautiful part of this development is that most of the work is done in association with the local administration. But in this park, 99% of the work has been done without any support from the government- neither financial nor infrastructural. The local residents are paying from their own pockets and not taking a penny from the Municipal Corporation. So, 1 % that the Municipal corporation in helping is to maintain the street lights and no other help beyond that.
I	Can you speak about the history of Burlton Park area? Was it during the British time or what was this?
R	Basically Burlton was the name of a Britisher. 200 years ago, it was one of the most beautiful parks. So as you are aware, those people were more environment friendly. So, with the passage of time, this park became barren as there was no maintenance. The park is named after Burlton. Under the Land Revenue document, these 62 acres of land is recorded as a park.
I	Did you see the land revenue record?
R	Yes. I have seen that. The land revenue record is also produced in the high court.
I	We will come to that later. So when did you come to know that the Municipality is planning a sporting hub here?
R	In 2006
I	What was your first reaction?
R	In the name of the Sports hub, they came up with a plan to start a commercial project, which consisted of approximately 100 shops, 33 feet road in front of the shops, and entire park would be destroyed because of that. So, our first reaction was to take the map of the area and challenge the map in the high court.
I	When did you go to the court exactly?
R	in 2006.
I	Can you take us through your struggle from 2006 till now? What were the steps including going to NGT? Can you share it chronologically?
R	The journey was somewhat weird/were(Unable to understand this word at 4:37) for the big government project. Moreover, the government was not in a financial position to develop such a luxurious project in the city. That time, the government was striving for necessary projects just like water and sewage. That time, they came forward with a project of 250 crores for the sports hub. in 2006, we moved the petition in the court, it was easier for us to stop them, as the national pollution level was not good. Then they came forward with a commercial project.
I	So what happened in the court? what was the hearing?
R	In 2006, we got a status quo in the court and up to 2015 that the status quo was maintained. In 2015, the regional bench in the High Court, which comprised of the judge (who is the present Chief Justice of India) and Mr. Kaul (currently a Supreme Court Judge), disposed the case with some conditions that were to be fulfilled by the Municipal authorities. I think they are still working on that.
I	When did you go to National Green Tribunal (NGT)?
R	Since the case was disposed of with some condition in the High Court, so we were ready to fire another shot, which was to go to NGT. And the High Court also directed us to move the judgement to NGT. We have not listed our case there, but we are ready. Because they (municipal authorities) have not fulfilled any of the conditions laid down by the high court as far as the information we have.
I	Can you briefly share what are the conditions that have been laid down by the High Court?
R	So there were certain conditions. Most important was that they have to take a clearance from the Environmental Impact Assessment authority of the project. Second, as per their affidavit in the High Court, they will not cut any trees. If any project will start in the future, they will not cut any tree. Their advocate general has given an affidavit in the Hight Court and they must take care of these things.
I	So when did you come to know that this sports hub will be included in the Smart City Mission? And what was your reaction?
R	It was later half of 2017, when the government was going to be changed/ changed. Since the case was disposed of in the High Court in 2015, I have not seen any development on the part. In 2017 or 2018, we came to know about that.
I	Is it about being included in the Smart City?
R	Yes. Our fight is not against any developmental project, we stand for development, but it should not be at the cost of disturbing the ecological balance of any area.
I	Did you meet the Municipality to talk it out or find out how it going to come out, when did you get to know that the sports hub is included in the Smart City project? or are you waiting?
R	We are waiting for their response.
I	So you do not know what is the exact plan of the sports hub?
R	Yes. We are not sure if they have changed their DPR or not.
I	You are still waiting and watching?
R	Yes.
I	Was there any consultation with the citizens here in Burlton Park? Before preparing the proposal for the Sports hub.
R	I think all that was only done on papers. Whatever documentation was done at that time, they were just on papers. They picked up one person here and there and made them fill the forms and go. They have not met any concerned people or concerned parties.
I	Recently, it has appeared in the News that they are going to build the sports hub on 8.3 acres of empty land, which is located in Pathaka ground. Are you aware of this?
R	I do not have the official Municipality documents on that subject. Until and unless, we have not received any official documents on this, I cannot comment on that. We welcome any development that happens without any disturbance to the ecological balance and will support the Municipal authorities on this.
I	What about that empty space, which used for Pathaka? Would you be okay with the Sports hub?
R	Yes definitely. That is empty space and that should be used to the benefit of the community. The fight was basically for the preservation of the green belt. This was our main concern and still is our main concern and will also be our main concern. Our focus is mainly on the green belt.
I	Do you have any idea how many people use the park? Rough estimate?
R	Approximately 2000-3000 people used to come in the morning and evening. Since we have 2-3 parks in the locality, a lot of people turn up here.
I	There is also a nursery here?
R	Yes. A Nursery run by Municipality, is also here. Rose Garden is also here.
I	According to you what is a Smart City?
R	Smart thinking makes a city smart. Smart people. People must be smart enough to understand their duties.
I	If I say the word Smart city, what comes to your mind. What is your understanding of Smart City?
R	My understanding of Smart City as I told you is smart thinking. Without the cooperation of people, nobody can make the city Smart and it will only exist on paper. Cooperation and attitude of the people are foremost (value) for making any city, community or state, “Smart”. First there should be a thought which will be put into action. The administration should also make an effort to make the people aware. If any project like Smart City comes out, they should create awareness. You can go to Namasher here, which is a small town, but is a better place in respect of cleanliness than Jalandhar. The reason why that is because people in the small town are aware and administration has also appreciated the people for maintaining cleanliness and hygiene.
I	Are you aware of the Smart City Project in Burlton Park area? The different Smart City projects like sewage improvement. Is there any talk?
R	I used to read it through newspapers 2-3 years ago.
I	Okay. But nothing is on the ground yet?
R	Yes, nothing is on the ground. I think the lack of will power is also one of the reasons that are responsible for that. There must be some will power, at the executive or political or administrative level, to administer the projects.
I	What do you think of the Jalandhar Municipality? What are their problems?
R	Let it be Jalandhar Municipality, or Amritsar Municipality or Ludhiana Municipality, they are not growing as the way it should be.  I was born in this, Jalandhar, city and we have seen this as a beautiful city. When I moved from Chandigarh to here, it was 2nd or 3rd cleanest city. So, for the last 2-3 years, due to the lack of political will, it is not as it should be.
I	Where do you think the failure is? In what specific aspects?
R	As I told you, the political will and executive will is lost. I think, urban development is a matter of consistent planning. It requires a lot of planning as the population is growing. With growing populations, they face a number of problems. For the last 10- 12 years, the garbage issue has increased. A number of projects are coming in regards to that, and sometimes the local MLAs or people are agitating. And they are not fighting it out. With the growing populations, such kind of projects come and the think tank should have the vision to solve such kind of problems.
I	I also read in the paper that societies/ NGOs wanted to develop Burlton Park in the lines of Neeko Park. can you talk about that proposal?
R	As I mentioned earlier, there are 5 localities, so the question arises: What about children? And what about old people? Children and old people in society demand most care. I just want a place in the park for these two sections. For children, just like Neeko Park. Even though we do not want assistance from the government, we can develop it on our won. But sometimes, they come with their number of projects, this and that and waste a lot of time. So, if they allow us to develop this area in beautiful ways, so we can go ahead. But they must have a positive approach towards this.
I	Do you think the government is engaging the NGOs more? Or what do you think the role of NGOs should be?
R	Right now, just by my observation, the government is trying to involve NGOs. Sometimes they want more involvement of NGOs.
I	Finally, what do you think of is the future of Jalandhar? How do you see the city in the next 10-15 years from now? Like what is the future of Jalandhar as you think? Do you think Jalandhar should become like Delhi, Mumbai?
R	There must be some planning. As I mentioned, there is garbage issue, sewage issue, sanitation issue, water issue and so on. So, there must be planning. In fact, there should be a master plan, for instance, the garbage should be outside the city. For instance, for Burlton Park, they are proposing a cricket stadium here, so what about traffic? If you want to construct a cricket stadium here, there will be long traffic jam. The roads are not able to handle the existing traffic here. There should be infrastructures. We should not be hypothetical in any situation or any project. You must have some radical and practical approach.
I	But there is a master plan for Jalandhar?
R	It is just on papers and not being implemented. Master plans are for MLAs to agitate against the plan. The master plan is drawn only after the site is finalised, and decisions are taken and with consent and critical consultation. I am not blaming anyone, but they should have some consultation, so it could move in a harmonious way. What happened here, they do not make any proper and genuine communication with us. That’s why our fight that started 9 years ago still continues today. They always talk in a high headed approach.
I	The fear of the sports hub was only on environmental question? was there any other fear apart from traffic congestion you spoke about?
R	It was not fear. It was a concern. Have you seen the foundation stone there? I will take you there. I am not talking hypothetically and I have papers. There were roads and shops. Have you ever seen roads and shops in the parks? This question was asked by High Court advocate general Mukul Aggarwal..
I	That were the concerns?
R	The main concern is that parks cannot be used for commercial purposes.
I	Thank you very much.


JI018
I	So for how many years have you been working here?
R	22 years.
I	And how is it like for you working here?
R	To work always feels good. The needs of the household, my spending, everything gets covered due to this work. So working does feel good.
I	So what I meant to ask is that do you like working in this place? In this Jyoti Chowk market.
R	My answer would be the same, I do like my work.
I	Okay.
R	Okay. If there is no other option for a person, then whatever work one gets, one has to be satisfied there.
I	Okay… What is that one thing about this place, or wealth that is most important for you?
R	Of this market?
I	Yes, especially near the Chowk, yes the market.
R	There is this Kali temple we have in this market, which is at least 35 years old. So people do believe a lot and we also have a connection/attachment with it. That is it… and the shop where I work, I have most attachment with my work then.
I	How was this place when you first arrived here? Would you be able to describe?
R	Of course, actually in the beginning when we… actually like I told you it’s been 22-23 years since I have been here now. Before that, my father was also here. So near about 30-35 years have passed by. So whatever he told us when we were kids and as we had seen it. There was an old building, which would fall apart on its own. No one would destroy it but it would break apart. Then gradually, people started settling here and on today’s date, there are around 350-400 shopkeepers here who are carrying on with their business. But in old times, there was a building behind and the front side was empty.
I	Was there a playground?
R	There was a playground and there was an old tehsil, what we could call a kacheri where one would do governmental work.
I	So how did it start changing, like in the ‘80s there were a certain number of people, now in the ‘90s, more people came in…
R	That’s true. You see, with time what happened was, like my father, other people had their fathers and their children, they grew up. There would be two or three children in one family, so that way they would form another family. So with time, it came increasing. Some people are from outside as well, but most people are those who were here before and then their family members increased, that way people started to settle.
I	Okay. What are some of the drawbacks or problems in this place, according to you?
R	Problem wise, there are no provisions for bathrooms or toilets or other basic needs. The market is established on its own. There was no systematic way for the market to come about. But some parts are made really well, some others are that well-developed. More than half area has been developed in a good way, rest of it, roads have been constructed. Cooler, AC, fans are available. But some parts are not that developed.
I	What things need to come about to improve this?
R	If the market comes up in a systematic manner, that is our requirement. If it is systematic, if it is in a proper line, if the roads are made of concrete, provisions for lights should be there and like I already mentioned, we have some basic needs. Like drinking water, so our basic needs should be met. That would be a market area but no one has paid much attention to it.
I	Okay. Would you share any special memory that you have about this place?
R	The special thing is, the place where you spend your childhood is anyway special. So no matter how much the person ages, those memories never fade away. Our father used to work here as well. Now he is no longer with us but our memories with him are still with us – like sitting and working here. So like everybody, we also have that attachment with this place. This place is not just about earning money but some places you really connect with, so this is one such place. So no matter where I am the whole day or if I go out for four days or so, but this place pulls me back. That I want to get back to my shop. So it is not about earning alone but I do get a certain satisfaction here and other people working here would also feel similarly.
I	Okay. How do you deal with the Corporation? Daily basis or when they come for eviction?
R	Of late, people in the Corporation have stopped giving us receipts here. So we have met with the Corporation many times and told them that we want a satisfactory life. By that we mean that the sword that hangs by our neck about our future, so if they systematically give us receipts then we don’t have any complaints. We are also a part of this society, this country. If we are paying our Income Tax and GST papers are with us, so if we are working in tandem with the GST, then if we have to pay the Corporation as well, we don’t have any problem. But it should happen in a legal way. We don’t like illegal ways. Because we are not in 2000s, we are a large number of people and we won’t tolerate injustice at such a large scale. When there are many of us, we prefer the system. If they come to us with a systematic deal, we are ready for it. They will get an income and we shall also have a good life.
I	But when they come for evictions, how do you deal with it?
R	Like I told you, they have not come for us with eviction notices for some time now. Previously, when they used to come, we keep receipts of over a year or more and then we give them together, whatever the rent would be. So they would know better what they are thinking. We are quite clear that if they come today itself, we respectfully… we don’t have any fight with them.
I	Okay, so when was the last eviction done?
R	Around three years back. And it was not for the market properly, only on the main road where there was encroachment issue. So they had come for encroachment issue, so we did not oppose it. We are only saying that there should a system that is followed all over India. This system should not be implemented in a single day. System does not mean that you show once in two months, that is not a system. Regular implementation is system. They give two-three months just to waste time and when the media pressure increases after three months, then you come with your sticks. Isn’t it better to be in touch with people every few months? You let them know what the route plan is, where is one’s space; if one sits in that space then no one would complain. People turn bad when there no one to ask them. If you keep them on check, they will also follow them. If one doesn’t pay them any attention, like if one stops watching a child, then they also become mischievous. So it’s the same with us. If the system pays attention, keeps a check once a week or in ten days to see if the allotted space is being followed or not, then no one has any issue with that. The problem starts because they leave us all on our own in the beginning, and later they tell us to move into a cage. So who would be ready to go to a cage when they had already set us free? If they run in a system, we are also ready. 
I	So how is the implementation of the Street Vendors Act going on?
R	We have also heard that the street vendor policy has come up but there is nothing much at the ground level. Neither effect nor information. At first, authorities from the Corporation came here regarding the policy. They talked about making cards. They only handed over 10 cards out of 300 people. And later on, because of the Corporation elections, which were followed by election of MP and MLA, they are not even looking at it.
I	But does the card give you confidence?
R	Yes, of course. I do get confidence. It comes to mind that we are also valid. If someone asks, where did I come from? Then I can say that it did not happen over a single day. This card got made years back and we are here. That we can tell them. Otherwise, what is this policy what would happen, only time would tell. When it is implemented at the ground level, then we will see. If there is profit, it’s a good thing but if it leads to loss then it will be met with opposition.
I	And how many people are involved with the Sunday market?
R	Around 1000-1200 stalls are there for the Sunday market. So each of that is connected to a family and then there are boys who work there. So it’s quite a huge number at the Sunday market.
I	So is there a plan to shift that into the Municipality parking lot?
R	Yes, first of all, if they have a suitable plan to shift 1200 shopkeepers, then they should implement. They did not have a suitable plan. The space they were providing us was very small. Secondly, the shopkeepers who are set up at the Sunday market, they are the same people who have their shops behind. Then to sell the remaining stock of their shops, they keep some stuff out in the open. Okay? So for that small amount of materials, they will not move to a different place. They will sell it there itself. The people here only benefit from it. If they are buying it for cheap, they also let them enter the main shop and show them around. That is the system. That is how shopkeepers work. So if one says that everyone will be moved to that place, then it won’t happen. Because how will you take the shopkeeper? Because there is a shop and when the shopkeeper puts up a stall, only then it is a market. So which market do they want to take to another place?
I	So, what do you know about the Jalandhar Smart city project?
R	I told you till now it is only at the base level. No one knows about this plan. They have only given us 10 cards. I think in the whole of Jalandhar, they just have given 10 in total. That too they started it here in this market and it got over here itself. After that, I am hearing about it from you.
I	So the plan for the smart city, what do you know about…
R	No, we heard what they are going to do under Smart city, how they will improve the roads, how they will improve greenery. All this system when it gets implemented, only then will we understand properly. Because camps will be put up where they will explain it to people, only then we will know what the system is all about. Lot of people do not have any information about the system. Very less number of people know what ‘smart’ means. On a personal sense, one would know what smart means…
I	What do you think a ‘smart city is?
R	See, smart means an individual’s basic needs should be met. Good air, then there are garbage dumps here and there, that should not happen. And there is another thing, like traffic but the solution should be in such a manner that the India’ system does not get hampered. So they should come up with the policy in such a way that people are not at a loss and most of the world is happy. So what will they make? We will know once it’s in front of us. If one makes 1000-1500 people happy by making 500 people sad, then that would not be a good system. So that is the thing – if the system is good then everyone will like it.
I	So they want to make the traffic smooth in order to improve Jyoti Chowk?
R	Yes.
I	So what do you think the changes will be? What will be the effect?
R	See, whichever part of the city it is, if the traffic is smooth then the people in the city will benefit. Similarly, in Jyoti Chowk as well, like you are asking, if here the system improves, it is a good thing and it should happen.
I	But how do you think it will affect the vendors here?
R	Yes, the vendors will be affected. Life will change but again the same thing comes up that if the system gives a little space and suppose, today instead of 20 feet they provide 5 feet or 7 feet and they make a settlement, then the system might improve.
I	So both can happen?
R	Yes, yes, both.
I	Vendor can also benefit…
R	And the system can also be set up well. Main problem is not in the policy, it is in the motive behind it... If the motive is right, then the policy will be made well. And if their motives are not right, the no matter how good the policy is the end results would not be great. So the first thing is the motive. Is the vendor the only problem or the encroachment that is happening across the city, those who have been served notices but the buildings are still there. So if all these problems get resolved, then at a basic level, they should look after everything. It should not be like the vendor is sent off but a shopkeeper with a stall who is involved in encroachment for 20-22 feet, if they don’t budge then the system is unjust. So that should not happen.
I	Are you all against relocation? What are your views on relocation?
R	Relocation means to shift to a different place?
I	Yes, yes.
R	See, if one person is getting work done here, it does not mean that his clothes are of cheap quality or something. There are multiple reasons. It’s the main chowk of the market where the board is there, so a lot of people enter from that side. There is tikki bazaar ahead, so when people walk out of their homes, they don’t come to eat tikki or golgappa. Someone might be selling clothes. So one does not step out thinking of eating golgappe but if one is going to the market, one eats golgappe and tikki, so that way both are profiting. Are you getting it? So then if both the people are earning, then if you send one to a different place, then someone would walk another dew kilometres just to eat tikki. So this policy would be detrimental to one of them. It’s like killing someone but with glucose. That we have put glucose, now you would neither die nor live. Such a policy will definitely be opposed, no matter how much they claim to have sent someone to one place or another. If someone loses one’s business, it’s quite natural that the person would oppose it.
I	My last question is that in what would be your relation with the smart city? What do you think?
R	By relation, I understand that wherever someone is involved, then the relation is formed. Where there would no involvement, for us there cannot be a strong relation. If we also have a space or position in a smart city, wearing good clothes… in a good system, we are ready to work. They can give us instructions, we are ready to implement it… But if they say that we can do whatever we like but won’t allow us to get involved with the system, then what is smart about it? Then for us, it is the world’s… the policy should be such.
I	So involvement that you mentioned…
R	Involvement/participation is very important to us, without that as you will understand, no relation can be formed or grown. If they want their policy to be successful, then there should be something for us in it. Our population is huge and a lot of people come from the villages, the issue is whether it is about being smart or is it about the increasing gap between rich and poor, there is need to bridge that gap. You have to understand the problem also. What would being smart give us if there is no roti at home, if people don’t get work, there are no work opportunities left… I think if we look at government statistics, more than the government, we are providing jobs to them. What we want is now the government should give us at least the 15 lakhs that Modi promised us. So that we can create jobs for the others. They are studying themselves, taking care of kids, they should look at this whole system. They will get to know. If they do ground level work, they will realize that the scarcity of food and unemployment will rise. If the people do not work in the right direction, the smart city people will only have to suffer, not someone else.
I	Thank you!

JI019
I	How long have you been working here?
R	It’s been 15-20 years since I established my roots here.
I	How does work feel like in this particular place?
R	It feels like home. My father used to work here. My heart is set in this place having lived here for decades.
I	What is the most important thing for you in this place?
R	The most significant part is the centre of our faith, the temple, which is situated here. We earn our daily bread from this place. It is everything we hold dear in our lives. The temples, our shops and our livelihood are important to us.
I	How was this place when you first came here?
R	It hasn’t changed much. Earlier we used to sell sitting down. Slowly people started making sheds. Eventually, the marketplace developed. None of this existed earlier.
I	Earlier you used to sell things sitting on the ground?
R	Yes we laid out our things for sale, sitting on the ground. That is the old practice. We have moved on to a different space now.
I	What do you think are the problems or flaws of this place?
R	If the government wanted, it could have provided us with a lot of convenience. For example, if we had a good water pipeline or better roads or toilets, it would help not only us but also customers who come here.
I	Any memories associated with this place that you would like to share?
R	When my father worked here, I used to be in school. I would wait eagerly for school to be over so that I would rush to this place and play with friends. This is the memory of this place. We went to school, played and grew up here.
I	You used to play here too…
R	Yes. We used to have our playtime here.
I	You remember all of that?
R	Yes. Those memories are still fresh.
I	What is your relationship with the municipal corporation? How do you deal with them?
R	Initially they used to give receipts against fine. Now that has stopped. There is no other dealing with them.
I	Do you know anything about the Jalandhar smart city project? What do you know?
R	I have heard about it. But I don't know the details for sure. I have heard there will be street lighting, improved roads and several other amenities will be provided.
I	Where did you hear this? Newspapers?
R	From newspapers, yes. Also, from television.
I	What according to you is a smart city?
R	A smart city is that where residents get better facilities and services. Basic amenities at the grassroots level like roads, health, electricity and water should be accessible. That would make a city smart.
I	When the smart city initiatives are taken up at Jyoti chowk traffic roundabout, how would that affect you?
R	If initiatives come up at Jyoti chowk, then the vendors should be moved here. They too have to earn their daily bread. If the displaced vendors are given a means of livelihood even as the traffic issue is resolved, then nothing better like it.
I	How do you place yourself in relation to the smart city?
R	If we are provided with basic amenities, then it would be good for us. What else does a common person want? Better healthcare, good roads, accessible utilities. Then the relationship blossom.


JI020
I	First, tell us for how long you have been coming to Burlton park and how do you feel coming here?
R	We have been coming here since last twenty years. We like it here. That's why we come here so often.
I	What aspect of Burlton park is of utmost importance to you?
R	There is greenery all around. We get oxygen.
I	A that’s what is most important to you?
R	Yes. This is the thing we miss living in the city. This is what our cities lack. However, we find the same (oxygen, greenery) in abundance at Burlton park.
I	How would you describe the place when you first came here? What changes have you witnessed over the time?
R	Earlier the place was deserted, there was a stadium and roads. People have developed this place into a park over a period of time. Now it is a popular place.
I	Was there this kind of greenery then?
R	There was no dearth of greenery. That is why people used to visit regularly.
I	So you would say the major change was the project of the stadium…
R	The existing stadium was good enough but now it's been demolished. The stadium, known as Burlton park Stadium, is now gone. Some of its remains have been left behind. Now the park stands in its place. People come here for walks and leisure.
I	What does this place fall short in?
R	Maintenance is a huge headache. There is no support from the government. They keep introducing new projects every now and then. Sometimes they say they want to make this place a sports hub and some other days they come up with some other plan. They are probably hoping that people will leave this place alone if the indecisiveness lingers. But people don't seem to want to let go.
I	What steps should be taken to bring improvement in to this place? What do you think?
R	In my understanding they should maintain the existing structure that is there in place. They should look after the park. Instead of turning the entire place into a sports hub, they could leave the park be and whatever other space remains, could be used to build a stadium. That shouldn't be a problem.
I	Any special memories of the Burlton park you would like to mention? Any significant event you would like to highlight?
R	The most significant memory is the fact that we have made very good friends here. Friendships have developed around the life in the park. We have a good network of friends today. That holds special place for us.
I	You mean friendships have taken shape here?
R	Yes. We have a lot of friends, even amongst the elderly. It is good company. Old friends have started coming together here.
I	When did you first hear about the municipality's sports hub project and what did you think about the prospect?
R	There used to be a stadium about ten to twelve years ago. The government decided to expand on it. It was carried out in an unplanned fashion. They demolished the existing stadium. Now, they are still sitting on it with the decade-long promise of a new stadium. They want to build an international stadium. Sometimes they quote it's 200-crore project and sometimes 300. Teams from outside also come (for survey). Lot of money is being pumped into the whole thing. The corporation has spent so much. But nothing concrete has taken shape even now. No action has been taken. Maybe they don't want to take any action.
I	What do you know about the smart city project in Jalandhar?
R	A smart city should have good roads, efficient waste disposal system, greenery around. A smart city cannot be built on compromising the integrity of the environment. There is no such order in place here. They are trying to destroy the little greenery that's around here. What kind of smart city would that be?
I	To continue with the question, what is a smart city?
R	In my understanding, a smart city should have good network of roads, greenery, waste disposal mechanisms, efficient management of utilities. These things don't take shape in reality. It is the fault of the corporation. First let them take care of basic quality of life, then they can mull over making the city smart. There isn't a decent garbage disposal mechanism in place even now.
I	What changes will come into effect if the sports hub does come up?
R	Sports hub might be beneficial for a few. Some people might have personal gains in it. Maybe it will help some people in their financial development. I don't see much benefit. This is already a hub in its own way. There is work in progress. There is a hockey stadium. There is also a lawn tennis and badminton court. We had a cricket academy here which I believe they have demolished. What more could they build over this?
I	How would you place yourself in relation to the smart city? Where do you see yourself in this scheme of things?
R	It will be a matter of pride that our city is considered smart. I don't see any other benefit. Rather it is going to burn a hole in our pockets.
I	What makes you think so?
R	I believe the corporation tax will increase for the smart city work. That shouldn't be such a huge problem. But the benefits should reach us.
I	What do you think is the future of a city like Jalandhar? How do you envisage Jalandhar in the next twenty to twenty-five years? Do you think about the future? For instance, Mumbai imagines itself to be like Sanghai in the future.  What do you imagine Jalandhar to be like?
R	I hope it becomes a well-developed city. It is the centre of Punjab. It is an industrial centre. It's good for goods production. It's also a media hub. If Punjab is to prosper, Jalandhar has to grow.
I	Now I would like to ask about smartphones. Do you use smartphones?
R	I do.
I	For what purposes?
R	I use it for the usual purposes. Other than that, I use it to get information.
I	What kind of information?
R	Google is useful for any kind of general information. Sometimes when we are bored, we use it to listen to music.
I	Any specific apps you use?
R	Nothing worth mentioning.
I	Do you use any app to pay bills, say municipality bills?
R	No. I don't. We use internet services for such purposes. But we don't do it via smartphones.
I	What’s your data pack like? Do you use more or just 1 GB?
R	No, no. I don't use a lot. I spend 300-400 rupees which runs for good 3-4 months.
I	Do you use WhatsApp?
R	Yes.
I	For what purposes? For communication?
R	It's not so much for communication as it is for listening to nonsensical, fun content people generate. Either way it's a handy medium to communicate with people.
I	Thank you.


JI021
I	How long have you been coming to Burlton park?
R	It’s been almost 26 years.
I	How do you feel about the park and your time here?
R	Great. I feel really good. There is greenery around. The atmosphere is excellent here and the environment is wonderful. It is quite peaceful here. That’s why people come here.
I	What thing or resource in this place is of utmost importance to you?
R	The trees and plants here are the best things about this place. They protect the environment. The entire world is in turmoil when it comes to the natural environment, particularly Punjab is in the danger zone. Especially Jalandhar is at the top of such a crisis...
I	You mean the earthquake?
R	Yes. The earthquake. There is very little greenery in Jalandhar. Even the minimum requirement of 3-4% has not been met.
I	Okay.
R	I like the trees here the most. Their shade is a respite. I like coming here and strolling around the park.
I	What was this place like when you first visited the place?
R	There wasn’t much to this place earlier. There were some trees around, but they were not well-maintained. (You could say) there was zero maintenance.
I	So what kind of changes have come about between then when you first came here and now?
R	The changes came when the then commissioner Mr. Jahaul, I am not quite sure about entire name, started initiating work on the park. Since the municipal officers rarely came to oversee the work, people had started growing sceptical about the commissioner’s initiative. He had tried to develop the place once or twice. But he wasn’t able to keep the maintenance afloat. So we decided to convene a ‘society’.  We then requested him to let the ‘society’ take over the maintenance of the park. It’s been 20 years now, the society has been taking care of the park.
I	What other changes would you say you have witnessed in this big environment of the Burlton Park?
R	Well, in terms of changes, there was this huge international stadium that has come up. World cup matches, India-Pakistan test cricket matches had taken place there. They started demolishing and renovating without proper planning and left it as it was. Children who used to come to the ground for playing have left. There is a cricket academy here. Cricketer Harbhajan Singh is a product of the academy here in Jalandhar. Then you have Rakesh Rathore who was the mayor.
I	Yes. Rathore was the mayor here.
R	Yes. He was also a cricketer. They used to play here. But that was demolished. You can see the remains lying around abandoned. Some of the things are expensive. Sometimes people take them away.
I	Any memories of the Burlton park or significant event you would like to share?
R	There was a time when the government wanted to sell the park with the intent of commercialising the space. The plan was to roll out about seventy shops around the park and a Int: road going through the centre. They wanted to join two roads with commercial establishments on one side of the road. The plan couldn’t take shape. A case was lodged and stay order enforced by the High Court. The case went on for eight to nine years and then eventually the park was rescued. The case is still pending with the National Green Tribunal.
I	So you vividly remember the time when the case was being fought?
R	Right now, say there are around four to five thousand footfalls from morning till the evening. Back then there were lesser visitors, say around seven to eight hundred. But there was no party politics or groupism. Everyone came together and unanimously agreed that the steps taken by the government were wrong and had to be opposed.
I	Did you take part in any public protest in this regard?
R	We protested a lot and that is why we took the matter to the court. Initially we went to the corporators, MLAs, Ministers on several occasions. But they were all hand in glove with each other to sell the park and commercialise it.
I	So all of you used to go to the concerned office-bearers (to plead your case)?
R	Yes. We met all possible officers concerned with the case. We appealed to Mayor Rakesh Rathore. We reminded him how he had started his career in cricket from here and his brother, another Rathore also used to train on the grounds here. The mayor’s brother used to play cricket internationally and has played for Indian (national) team. When we put forth our request, he said the property belonged to them. He didn’t even say it belonged to the municipal corporation or the government. Rather he stated they were the owners of the property, asking us who we were to make a claim. “What is this ‘society’? Who is this ‘people’ you are talking about? This is our property and we can choose to do whatever we want with it”, they said. It was then that we decided we should take the legal course. For eight to nine years no developmental work was done. If we had those eight to nine years in our hands, things would have been different. Currently, the corporation is simply a nominal owner of the park. There are three to four gardeners on their pay-roll. They are paid five to six thousand a month to tend to the park. The rest of the amount, say about twenty-five to thirty thousand rupees a month that is spent on the maintenance of the space, is provided for by the ‘society’. We work together in full cooperation. and have a membership of about one hundred and fifty to two hundred people. There are four different such societies functional and they work in a similar manner. There are at least a thousand to twelve hundred people attached to this cause.
I	What would have been a problem if the park didn’t exist? How would that affect the localities around the park?
R	The problem is, say there is an earthquake or any such natural calamity, then there would be nowhere to go. This is the place, a safe space, where we can assemble. There is no open space for sports or for children to play. We also need some space to stroll, take a walk. A poor person has recourse to no other source (of leisure). There are about fifty to sixty colonies in surrounding areas.
I	This is the only respite for people around…
R	You could say there are about thirty-five to forty thousand people living nearby, but there is no park other than this one.
I	What shortcomings do you see in Burlton park? What aspect you think could be improved upon?
R	We are falling short on account of proper maintenance. There aren’t enough funds. Stray animals find their way into the boundaries. We plant trees and tend to them with a lot of effort. Sometimes it takes two to three years to nurture them. But the animals ram into them or even nibble them. There are stray dogs around. If only there was a boundary wall or a proper gate or a security guard or at least a public toilet! So far it is manageable for men. But women face a lot of problems for lack of toilet. The society could take up construction of a public toilet. That is not a problem. The tough part is keeping it well-maintained. That is the job for the government. We pay taxes for things like this. It is their duty to address the issue. If we invest in basic infrastructure, give space for people to walk and move freely, that would take care of our health. We wouldn’t fall sick and instead save expenditure on that front.
I	What have you heard about the Jalandhar smart city project?
R	I have heard a lot about it. It comes up in the newspaper pretty often.
I	What is it that you have heard?
R	(They say) roads are being built, saplings are being planted, a lot of work is being done on  issues of the environment, but all of that is on paper. Practically, nothing has taken shape till now.
I	Did the municipal authorities consult with you or discuss regarding the project?
R	No, no. No such talk has happened. Public involvement (in the process) is almost zero. There is no public engagement. They simply sit in their office and chalk out a plan. Do you see them consulting with anybody? Not long ago, say around six to seven or maybe seven to eight months back, they came up with a project to introduce garbage disposal machines that would ingest waste and produce compost for agricultural use.  People wanted a demonstration of the functions of the machine before it was implemented. When people protested against the installation of such machines tin their locality, the project was stalled. If we are to believe that such machines are not harmful rather more useful, we could place one machine first and show it to people and then try to convince them that it has no bad effect on the environment. But they (municipal officials) take no such steps. They just sit in their office, ponder over the availability of the machine and then take a snap decision to install it in a locality. Residents protested it thinking their locality would turn into a dumping yard. Once the machines become dysfunctional the locality would be swamped with waste and odour. Is this the way to go? Shouldn’t the public be more involved? There should be demonstration. People should be consulted about their wishes. At the end of the day, it is for them that the project is meant. When we want roads, they say it is a departmental matter. They are unable to obtain permission to work on it. Look at the roads. There are several such instances when there are trees in the middle of the road. There have been accidents resulting in casualties. Why do you need trees in such places? To kill people? We plant trees so that we get a good environment to live. Is that a way to plant more trees? Several vehicles have met with accidents. They are harping about permission. Do they have to seek permission from America or China? The Chief Minister should be the one granting permission, bringing different departments to one table. If it is a matter of removing electric poles, the concerned authorities should be asked how much time they would need to finish the work. What permission do you need for such a thing? I have never been able to understand this business with seeking permission. They talk about permission from the Green Tribunal. Who does the tribunal belong to? It is for the people. Has it been constituted for the benefit of people or to create trouble for them? A project is started with initial estimate of ten rupees. But by the time it is completed, the cost escalates to a thousand. This is how projects fail and become unviable. If we have a requirement now, ten years later that same need could either increase or cease to exist. How can we guarantee the requirements would remain the same after ten years? For instance, since the time the stadium was being developed to now, the population in Jalandhar has increased by fifteen to twenty percent and about twenty colonies have been developed. The population of each colony is around five to six thousand. So sixty-seventy thousand more people have come up in that span. But the roads haven’t changed. The roads are still twenty, twenty-five or thirty feet wide, while population has increased. Now, if there was a match at the stadium and the capacity was to hold sixty to seventy thousand people at a time, these roads wouldn’t be able to accommodate the load of such a huge population. There wouldn’t be any space for parking. The traffic would be jammed. What use is that anymore? We have to build new roads. Why can’t we find a new space (for the stadium)? This place is already highly-priced. One marla (272.25 square feet) land costs five to seven lakhs. Why don’t we look for land that would cost 50000 rupees a marla. We would be able to afford a bigger and more open space and maintain the stadium well. That could be even built for free. Players now-a-days have cars. Even people with motorbikes and scooters can manage to travel ten kilometres to practice. That isn’t a problem at all. And if we wanted to watch a match, it isn’t as if the matches take place every day. There would hardly be five to seven matches every year. Whoever is interested in watching it can do so five to seven kilometres from here. Everyone prefers open spaces. It doesn’t always have to be in the city. The problem is the stubborn attitude of the politicians. They are of no use. They don’t have the funds. We read in the newspapers so often that the corporation doesn’t have money for its employees. There have been strikes. Salaries have been due for months. Four-five months back there were strikes regarding this. The corporation which doesn’t have money to pay for its employees, how does it intend to build a stadium which is a project to the tune of three hundred to five hundred crores. Even if they build it on loan, imagine the burden! How many matches can you hold in a stadium? How many does Mohali stadium hold? Then there is interest on the loan. That has to be paid as well. On top of that they have no income generation. Then the corporation would fall down another notch.
I	What according to you should a smart city be like? What is a smart city?
R	Smart city should be that which provides its residents with basic needs. There should be good roads, street lights, better transportation, better healthcare facilities, good civil hospitals. If we have these basic things, it would automatically qualify as a smart city. Smart city is not a special project. It’s a bare necessity. They have simply tagged it as a smart city. They have only adopted Jalandhar for smart city project. Does that mean the rest of the places could go to hell? Every village, every city needs basic infrastructure. The subsidies on the tax like providing LPG cylinders, that is being without much thought, whose money is it? Does it come from the ancestral properties of these politicians? They claim they built roads etc. None of this invested from their pockets. It is all taxpayer’s money which is not being utilised properly.
I	Given that the smart city project has been given a nod, what changes or impact you think this place will face?
R	If a stadium happens to come up, it would be a welcome change. Nobody is against the stadium. The contention is about losing out on the trees here. There is a huge tract of deserted land around. It must be about 20-22 acres lying unused. They don’t want to develop that part of land, but hell bent on cutting the trees and clearing them to make place for the stadium. In reality, it has nothing to do with encouraging sports but simply a pretext to commercialise the space. These politicians have no interest at all in sports. Sports hub is an excuse to commercialise the area.
I	If the hub is developed on the deserted, vacant land what difference would it make?
R	If they develop it, nobody would protest it. It would be a good thing. People would get a place to pursue sports. There will be developmental work, employment opportunities. Youngsters seeking refuge in substance abuse (drugs) would find indulgence in sports. Drugs are so widely and readily available in Punjab. Right now, the government has curtailed it to some extent. This entire business of drugs has gone down slightly. But there are always chances of relapse. Those who are addicted to drugs won’t be able to stay away for long. We must understand that the youngsters are moving abroad for better, but it destroys the prospects of Punjab. The youth is making a bolt for opportunities outside. The effect of this can be fathomed in the next ten to fifteen years. Then people will realise the mistake.
I	Why is the youth leaving?
R	There are no job prospects. Nobody pays attention to issues here. The problem of employment is a given, but another unforeseeable problem that is lurking and would be emphatic in next 10-15 years is that of the elderly population. Where would they be? Where would their parents be? Who would look after them? They would pass away neglected. Those who are abroad and wish to take their parents, it is no easy job. It (visa) is a lengthy process. It might be easier for younger people to take their parents, but those who are a bit older would face huge problems. The old-age homes can hold and sustain only so much.
I	It is a real problem...
R	Yes, yes. It is slowly becoming evident now. You see the property prices are taking a dip precisely for this reason. This is a bigger problem with bigger repercussions than what has been of demonetisation, in Punjab.
I	Due to migration?
R	Yes, because of migration. College students are choosing to move abroad while seats in colleges here lie vacant. Most of these students go abroad after Intermediate studies. Parents also believe what’s the point of studying here when there is no job for their children. There isn’t much investment that could increase employability. It would cost 40-50 lakh to open a shop here for business. But if parents invested 20-25 lakhs and sent their children to Canada, at least that would take care of basic needs. Whoever has left, roughly 1-2 percent might have faced problems, but 98 percent of the people are happy there. Those from our surrounding who have gone can vouch for it. The colony we live in has around 500 people and more than 300 young people have already migrated.
I	You mean from 500 households?
R	Yes, of 500 households, children belonging to 300 have left.
I	Where do people migrate to the most? Canada or US?
R	Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand and many more such countries where they get employment and opportunities. But these are the main countries. People who have two children and say one of them lives abroad and the other here, they don't want to expand on their property or build a bigger house. All such kinds of work have now stopped. The economy built around it now no longer exists. Usually, properties are divided among siblings. However, those settled abroad who wish to sell their portion meet with no success. Who will buy that? We discussed earlier out of 500 households 300 have left the city. The 200 remaining behind are the only people who are prospective buyers. They insist on underselling. It’s a question of demand and supply. There is no demand but increase in supply.
I	I have another question. Where do you see yourself in a smart city or rather in relation to the smart city?
R	The relationship should be cordial. Who wouldn't want a smart city? Who wouldn’t like to be provided with convenience and basic facilities? That is what all of us have been demanding. Isn’t it? Whatever the party, whichever government it be, this is a unanimous choice. There should be good roads, decent quality of life. Everybody welcomes the move. This is not a personal choice. I wouldn’t be walking the roads alone. It is a public issue. Accidents can be averted for everybody’s benefit. I don’ t think that many people have been killed by terrorist strikes all over the world, compared to death by such neglect, in India. Neither terrorists nor victims of terrorism compare in number to death by road accidents in India. Is there a bigger terror than this? Every day 10-20 people die in Punjab. You check newspapers, there will be ten deaths reported any given day. These are categorised as regional news encompassing 2-3 districts. In Jalandhar, we get news stories of nearby areas. If you take a stock of entire Punjab, 10-20 on average get killed (by road accidents).
I	I would like to ask regarding smartphones. We would like to know how often do use them and for what purposes? Do you use smartphone?
R	Yes, we do.
I	To what end do you use a smartphone?
R	We use it for entertainment.
I	What kind of entertainment?
R	We use YouTube, WhatsApp. We have retired. That (smartphone) is primarily a source of entertainment, but it is a different thing for the children if they choose to use it properly. You have the entire world condensed in it.
I	What do you use WhatsApp for? Conversations?
R	That is the entertainment part for us. We read a message or send one to somebody. What else? What knowledge would we gain out of it? It is a carrier of fake news most of the time. There is nothing to learn from it.
I	Any particular Apps you use? For example, apps for paying bill…
R	No. We just send funny messages to each other. Children use it for other purposes.
I	So you don’t pay bills through smartphones?
R	We don’t but our children use it to pay bills. We don’ t have proper knowledge about using apps, so we don’t. It’ s our shortcoming, otherwise it’s a very handy device.
I	Thank you


JI022
I	First, let’s begin with your name and age?
R	My name is *** ***
I	Okay, age?
R	I am 42 years old.
I	Okay, So how long have you been working here?
R	I have been here for about 30-35 years.
I	How do you feel working here?
R	It’s been fine for me. It’s the usual. Work has been a bit pale, but it’s alright.  Everything is alright in Jalandhar and in Punjab.
I	How was the market area like when you first arrived here?
R	The market area has developed a bit. But our marketplace remains unchanged. Nothing has changed within the market. Rest of the areas have developed.
I	What aspect of this place is of utmost importance to you?
R	As in?
I	In this entire market, the Jyoti Chowk market, what is it you would consider as significant or most important?
R	We have a temple
I	Which one?
I	The one of Goddess Kali. It’s in this marketplace.
I	So that’s what’s important to you? Okay. What shortcomings have you noticed about the marketplace? What improvement would you suggest?
R	There should be better cleanliness here. Develop the marketplace, develop parking lots, do the usual thing.
I	What steps should be taken for parking facilities?
R	The roads here should be cleared. There is already one parking lot in place. That should be put to use. They could clean the existing parking space and render it functional. There is a lot of space behind the marketspace, enough for a parking lot. There is another parking space at the chowk and a few other here. These roads should be cleared (of vehicles) to facilitate free movement here.
I	Any special memories of this place you would like to share? Any particular event you remember since the time you arrived here first?
R	Nothing as such has happened so far.
I	How do you deal with the officials from the (municipal) corporation?
R	Nothing specific. Everything is alright as it is. The corporation does not bother us. They listen to us and comply with our requests. Sometimes we accede to their demands and so do they. The problem is garbage on the roads. Everyone has gathered their waste in a bag and kept it aside here. The sanitation workers should clean the place from time to time.
I	What do you know about the Jalandhar smart city project? Have you heard anything about it?
R	Just that roads will be developed, waste management will be better, there will be more greenery, more trees will be planted and a good marketplace will take shape and colonies will be improved.
I	Have you heard about the proposed improvements upon the Jyoti Chowk area?
R	You see, the chowk or the roundabout is a circular open space without lighting. It okay as it is. It does not need lighting. People just need to go around. If there are street lights installed, there would be a lot of traffic, it will lead to congestion. It would take four times more time than we ordinarily need to go on the roundabout once. It is better off without the lighting.
I	What is the solution to the traffic problem?
R	There should be parking facilities. There are vehicles parked all around. If the roads are cleared, then there would be some change to the traffic problem.
I	What according to you is a smart city like?
R	A smart city should look appealing, it should make us feel happy.
I	What should a smart city be like? What features should it possess?
R	There should be trees around, good waste management in place and better things.
I	Do you use a smartphone or internet service?
R	No, I have a basic phone.
I	Where do you see Jalandhar in the next 10-20 years. How is it going to be?
R	There should be efficient organisation of work, better schools, education should be free, schools should be more organised, there shouldn’t be price on receiving education. There should free food, better employment. In a smart city, the market should be open for everyone, there should be jobs for everyone. Nobody should be spending on education from their pockets.
I	That’s what you wish for…
R	You see there is an organisation for running the temple here, likewise education and social marriages should be brought under the purview of the organisation. Some of these responsibilities should not be left to the government. Our issues should be addressed by ‘societies’ or ‘organisations’ not ministers. We should free the government from any responsibility. That’s how it should be.
I	Okay, then.


JI024
I	First. Please tell your name and then your age.
R	My name is *** ***. I am 64 years old.
I	Where do you live?
R	I live here, near Palta Park, in a colony called BSF colony.
I	Okay. Do you have parks there?
R	Of course there are parks, but they were constructed by the local municipality. The corporation or promoters have not built any park yet.
I	So if you had to visit a park, you would come here?
R	Yes. This park, Palta Park, is the nearest to us. So we come here.
I	Since how long have you been coming to this park?
R	It’ s been at least 35 years since I have been coming to this park.
I	How do you like it here?
R	It’ s all good. We appreciate whatever natural beauty, grasses, greenery this place has to offer. The corporation has not developed any plans or roads here. It’s alright as it is, but there is no government initiative as such.
I	So you were saying how you like this place…
R	Yes, we like coming here. We get oxygen.
I	What do you reckon is the most important thing about Burlton park?
R	At Palta Park, some of us started a club called the Dynamic Laughing Club. That remains the most important aspect of the park for us. All of us who are members of the club contribute money which goes towards maintenance of the park. It gives us satisfaction, makes us happy.
I	How was it when you first came to Burlton park? Could you describe it for us?
R	Earlier it was a jungle, a mess. Then clubs like the Dynamic Laughing club came up. People formed different kinds of clubs. People have invested their own money and developed this place. There has been no help from the government. There is no caretaker here.
I	Since the time you first came here to what it is now, what changes have you noticed? If you could tell us...
R	Earlier there used to be a jungle and a cricket stadium, but there was a dearth of greenery. People came together to make this place green. We planted trees, tended to the grasses. So now it’s a delight. It’s good.
I	What are the shortcomings of this place?
R	There are innumerable flaws here. Palta Park is spread across 64 acres of land. Now, people have started encroaching all around it. For instance, the DAV institutes have made their own parks here, then there are temple authorities who use a portion of the land for waste disposal, then there is a Kabirnath temple which has claimed a portion. Encroachment has started little by little. I feel in no time this park would cease to exist. The government is far removed from the concerns of the park. They neither maintain the park nor do they enquire after it. I am sure there will be complete encroachment.
I	These are the problems you say?
R	Yes, these are the major shortcomings. About the rest I would say, the government has been harping on a sports hub for ten long years. They demolished whatever little was already in place. Now this place is a mess and ridden with smoke. The corporation dumps entire city’s waste here at Palta and then they set the garbage on fire. This place is filled with smoke all day long.
I	What improvements to this place would you suggest?
R	If Palta Park remains an open space, then it has potential for a lot of development. It can be a hub. There is a hockey stadium. That could be improved upon. A lot of good parks can come up. If the corporation desires, it can even put-up equipment for leisure and sports. The roads could be improved. The trees could be taken care of. If the corporation wanted, this place could have developed and been opened to the public for a fee. This could have turned out to be a huge project. Punjab would have benefitted from it. All of this would have been possible if the government had the will to take the steps. But now all we see is encroachment. The government is aware of the problem but they are apathetic.
I	Any noteworthy memories of Burlton Park?
R	Well, Palta park holds a lot of memories. Long back when this mess didn’ t exist, there used to be Dussehra celebrations in the park. It used to be remarkable. It was the largest such event in Punjab. What more memories do I share? In fact the memories we have gathered here, coming together for the cause of the park is what remains. There is no tussle as to who Palta park belong to.
I	Any incident from the time you first came here?
R	Yes, There were incidents. There were lesser trees, less greenery. Now people have come together to maintain the park and take care of it. So it is all good now.
I	When did you first come across the plan for sports hub? What did you think about it?
R	We heard about the sports hub ten years back. There was this plan to invest 700-800 crores to build international stadium. But in the process of renovation they completely demolished the existing structure. We were happy about the fact that an international stadium was going to come up which would be good for Jalandhar. So far the stadium has remained a dream for the people. There is no sign of sports hub except debris. Children now play on the streets. There is a lot of excitement in children to pursue cricket, but there is no stadium to practice or play. Whatever existed has been demolished. 
I	What do you know about the Jalandhar smart city project?
R	I have heard a lot about smart city project here, but I don’t think it is going to materialise. The smart city buzz has been there for five years now, but there is neither a blueprint or any concrete measure that we could find. Smart city is a huge thing in itself. Let the government find solutions to basic needs like water, roads etc. Smart city is a distant dream.
I	Was there any consultation at the municipality’s end?
R	We were not consulted on any occasion. They are all a bunch of crooks. They don’t lay new roads, just do some patchwork on the existing nows. When the traffic increases, they keep adding a few more patches. It’s like splashing paint on a canvas. They don’t give much thought to such things.
I	What according to you is a smart city?
R	A city is smart only when there are good roads, traffic is well-controlled, there are good schools, good hospitals, efficient governance and a properly functioning corporation. If basic necessities of people are taken care of, then the city is smart. Huge buildings don't make a city smart, basic conveniences matter.
I	If the sports hub comes up as part of the smart city project, what effect would it have on your daily life?
R	Jalandhar will receive a huge impetus if the sports hub materialises. Whenever a place gets international acclaim there is an influx of people. Jalandhar is already known for promoting sports. The hub will create several sporting opportunities. An economy will emerge revolving the hub bringing prosperity to Jalandhar. There should be a sports hub. Punjab needs it. Initially it was planned here but then it was moved to Mohali where it’s been functional since fifteen years. Then we have a stadium built in Dharamshala in Himachal and look how it has prospered. Similarly, if a sports hub comes up in Jalandhar, it would bring glory to the city.
I	Finally. I would like to ask, what do you make of Jalandhar’ s future in the next 10-20 years?
R	Jalandhar hasn’t made much progress so far. We have a lot of dreams about its future. We belong to this city. We were born here. It is natural that we love this place. However, there has not been much help or facility in terms of sporting opportunities. We had a huge huge sports industry and rubber industry which isn’ t as big now. That's what is a bit worrying. Opportunities have been falling over time. Since we were born here, we have an attachment to this city and we like it here.
I	Thank you


JI025
I	Please tell me your name and age?
R	My name is *** ***. My age is 64 years.
I	What kind of work/business do you do?
R	I run my own business, where I manufacture rice shellers (used for de-husking the rice from the paddy).
I	How long have you been coming to Burlton park?
R	We have been living in this locality for the last 30 years. So, for the last thirty years, we come here for a jog or walk (saiyar karne). I have also been doing yoga for the last 12-13 years. We have been coming here since we have moved here.
I	How do you feel in this place /about this place?
R	This is our Khurak. We get 24x7 oxygen for free of cost.
I	What does Khurak mean?
R	We feel satisfied coming to this place just like the satisfaction we get when we eat food.
I	What is most memorable or something that is of important value for you in Burlton Park?
R	The greenery in Burlton Park is the biggest asset (he called it property). Today, where ever one goes, there is a lot of pollution everywhere. So due to increase in population, the greenery has gone down drastically, as there are houses being built, roads being made, shops and factories being constructed based on the demands of increasing population. Hence, the greenery is decreasing. So, we need greenery for pollution to come to an end. The NGT and the departments are also saying the same thing, plant as many saplings as possible. So, we should not lose the existing greenery.
I	How was this place when you came here at the beginning? Can you describe it?
R	You see the plain area there was a cricket stadium, but this park came into its existence 12 -13 years ago. Before 12-13 years, this land is not used to be plain (ubad khabad), but yet people used to come for jog/walk. There were no walking tracks, different areas in the park then, but still many people used to come to the park. There were no swings. Gradually, we were interested in and formed societies to take an interest to make this place better. If the government is not doing anything, then we will do as much as we can. Now, see the crowd/ presence of people around us today.
I	Why were the societies former?
R	They were formed because, to form collectives to do thing together, as doing things alone would have been very difficult. Some people may give their time, some people can spend money. We can also take charges. For instance, this track was constructed which costed 5.5 lakh rupees. We, the society members pooled some money and we also requested people for donation and we managed to construct this track.
I	What kind of groups/people comes to Boulton park?
R	People of all ages come to the park. From children to old people, everybody comes here. If you look around, you can see male, female, children and old people.
I	What is lacking in this place?
R	The only thing that is lacking is, you must have seen parks in Chandigarh or Panchkulla that are clean and developed where people visit those parks during the day and night. People who are busy during the day, busy in their shops, businesses, should be able to come to this park in the evenings/night too.
I	Can people use the park at night?
R	Yes, we have put some lights. But we want to make it even better. So, people can come here to take a stroll after dinner. We want society to do the best it can for it.
I	Can you share a few memories you have with this place? any events, good or bad? Something that you have with Burlton Park?
R	Incidents?
I	Some people have shared that they have watched cricket matches here which they reminiscence. Someone shared that there was an army training that happened here during the war. So when I say Burlton park, what memory do you recollect?
R	When I used to study at DAV college, I was interested in cricket, so I have come here to watch matches.  After the hockey playground was constructed here and we enjoy/watched matches there as well. It’s not that games should not be there, it is very important for young people. But I want is the greenery should not be destroyed for that. For building smart cities, all the colonies have built 20 feet streets in front of them but do not have any space to have parks in front of the colonies. The builder has made full use of the space (rather misused), such as way that there is no space for park and if there is any space for park, the contractor then would sell it for money to make a plot. So, the importance of the park is even more with the way things are.
I	here there are many unauthorized colonies. Like the ones that are constructed on the agricultural fields.
R	The corporation has given permissions to those colonies (colonies constructed on the agricultural land) by constructing roads, giving water supply, laying sewage etc. Instead of all these, they are technically called unauthorized.
I	those colonies do not have spaces for parks?
R	No, they do have space. That’s the more of a reason why this is very important. We come here every day, and see so many people come here, spend time here. By seeing this, we are satisfied. People come in the mornings and evenings. We are a 14-member group and come here between 5-6 am in the morning. We first walk and spend time talking with one another. I feel because I like this so much, that’s why I think everyone likes this space too.
I	When did you get to know about sports Hub. and what are your thoughts on that?
R	I got to know about it from the newspaper when I read that the corporation has sanctioned the loan for Rs. 263 crores for an institution (do not remember the name), that’s where they specified that they will completely convert it to a sports hub. So, after that it mentioned what will happen here? They mentioned that there will be a wall built to develop a commercial complex, which will also have a five-star hotel. Because for players who play the matches, will require to stay so the hotel.  When the map was made, according to that these three parks will be turned into parking space for vehicles. We didn’t like this idea or plan, so we opposed it.  We fought the case in court for four-five years. The court gave us the verdict that if NGT (National Green Tribunal) or Forest Department gives no objection certificate, then this can be converted into a sports hub. Then, there were changes in the political sphere like the ruling party in the government has changed. The loans we asked for was cancelled. The government does not have sufficient funds, so they did not give any emphasis on the improvement of the park. So with the grace of god, the park is fine at the moment.
I	Did you speak to the corporation about this?
R	There were adamant as they want to develop this park into a sports hub. And they think that, due to this, the prices of the houses in the colonies around this park will also increase. We are very apprehensive about this space as we will no longer be able to access this park.
I	Were you considering that the nearby localities will get benefited if sports hub come into existence?
R	They were giving us a reason that the real estate price would increase in this area. For instance, we are already living in our own house here, how does it matter or benefit us if the prices of our house go up? If we face hurdles even if the price of the house becomes high, our day-to-day routine gets affected. Then, what is the benefit? It’s all about money after that. There is no use of health or enjoying the quality of life through such spaces/parks.
I	When did you, first, hear about the Jalandhar Smart City Mission?
R	I do not remember the definite time period. Heard about the various cities that are made smart cities in the news and media. Through this, I found that Jalandhar is also part of the smart city mission.
I	How did you feel about it?
R	I felt good about it as they mentioned that they will make Jalandhar a better place as part of the smart city project. They will make it better in terms of cleanliness, greenery. So due to that, I felt good about this project.
I	How should a smart city be according to you?
R	Smart city is smart only when it addresses the basic issues in the city like cleanliness, countering pollution. If the city becomes a place (he said Ghar/house) for breeding diseases, then? I am not sure if you know that Jalandhar is one of the cities in Asia which has the most number of doctors and hospitals. If you do a survey across Asia, you will not find so many hospitals in a city as there is in Jalandhar. Why is this so? Why is there a whole industry of doctors? Because there are disease and sickness in the city. Now the hospitals that are constructed recently, are like visiting five-star hotels. They are investing so much and feel that everyday there will be a queue of patients waiting to be attended and know that they will do good business out of that.
I	When the sports hub will come into being as part of the smart city mission, what kind of changes may happen? what impact will it have? what do you think about it?
R	It depends on their planning. We do not have any problem with it if they do not destroy these existing greeneries and also improve upon it or make it better. They can make that cricket stadium, we do not have any disagreement. But please tell me one thing, IPL games have been organised for a while and they have always had a ground to play. If the stadium becomes a reality, there may be one or two matches that may be played in this stadium. But just for that one game, destroying the park and the entire greenery aches me. Games are essential for children and their development and well-being. There is a saying which goes ‘to silence someone, you have to slap somebody else’ and ‘to make one laugh, you need to make someone else cry.’ This is not right. The planning should be such that everyone is benefitted by it.
I	When the smart city becomes a reality, what would be your space/role/relationship in it? How would you envision your future?
R	I will share this with an example. My grandson lives in Noida. He was first in an Olympiad but now is ranked second. He received a gold medal for it, where he got 116 out of 120 and was ranked 10th in the whole of India. I feel very proud that he is my grandchild, despite the efforts are his, I feel like being very proud of his achievements. The effort is his, and he got it. In a similar way, if my city gets something nice, then I will feel good about it.
I	How do you envision Jalandhar as a city from 30-40 years from now? How do you see the future of small cities?
R	Jalandhar city does not have a good industry. It is a medium city with medium-sized businesses. I do not see the future. For instance, I have three sons, two of them are in Canada and one in Noida. Why they are living outside this city? Because they do not have good opportunity to get employed or to work. If there were opportunities here, then they would have lived with us.
I	You used this word medium very well by saying its a medium city, 
(R was interrupted by someone else for keys)
I	Do you use smartphones?
R	Yes
I	For what purposes?
R	There is a need of it in these times. Children live outside and I speak to them and also get information through this.
I	Do you use apps also?
R	What is required I use.
I	which apps do you use regularly? 
R	To have a conversation with one another I use WhatsApp app and others are based on necessity.
I	Do you use any transportation apps like Ola, Uber app?
R	Ola uber app is not a requirement. We ask young people to do it for us. But we manage to learn as much as it is necessary. We call this cramming, to memorize (ratta lagana).  You get used to the app after doing it a few times. times. I do not know the fundamentals/ basics of it.
I	Do you pay electricity bills online?
R	I have downloaded the electricity department app but I pay manually. No I use the app to get information about the electricity bill. For example, last time, I did not get the bill, so through the app I found out why and then generated the bill.
I	You use the app to an extent
R	I use the app that is necessary…….


JI027
I	Tell us your name and then your age.
R	*** ***. I am 71 years old.
I	Okay. So, where do you live?
R	Rose park, 367.
I	Is there a garden or a park in your locality?
R	No. There isn’t a park there.
I	What do you do if you wanted to go to one?
R	We come here, to Burlton park. It is a part of the lower valley two. This is where we come to spend our time in the mornings or evenings.
I	This is the park for the Rose Garden locality?
R	Yes. This is the one.
I	For how many years have you been visiting Burlton park?
R	I was born here. I have been coming here since…
I	Since your childhood days?
R	Yes. Since I have been coming here since I was a child.
I	How do you feel coming here?
R	I like it very much. It wasn’t this good earlier. A lot has improved. The park has three parts, one of which you are in now. This part of the park has made good improvement, too. It’s been very good.
I	What was this place like when you first came here?
R	Initially it was a forest cover. Now, three societies maintain three different parts of the park. The one you see now is park two. It is quite well-maintained.
I	There has been marked improvement from the previous state of affairs here?
R	Yes. A significant improvement. This park is meant for walkers. The pedestrian pathway was created by the society with its own funds. It is maintained by them as well. They have installed swings as well. There is a gardener on pay-roll to take care of the park.
I	What are the things in Burlton park that are important to you?
R	The greenery is noteworthy. We get a fresh breath of air here.
I	That is what is of utmost importance to you...
R	Yes.
I	What are the shortcomings of this place?
R	The dump yard that the corporation has created beside the park is inappropriate. We come across the garbage dump during our walks. It releases unhealthy gas and a pungent smell. So, we want the dump yard to be removed from here. It shouldn’t have been here in the first place.
I	What other improvements could be brought about in this place?
R	The corporation has no hand in the business of this place. None whatsoever. The Burlton park, which should have been the responsibility of the government is being taken care of by private societies. The government has no role in this.
I	Any special memories of this place you would like to mention? Any eventful incident that stayed with you?
R	There are fests and fairs hosted at the park. The stadium nearby has a gallery of stairs. People used to gather and watch the Dussehra festivities from there.
I	Does that happen even now?
R	Yes. It takes place even now. It has been the biggest event in the entire Jalandhar city. There are visitors from far off places. Huge crowd gather here.
I	Does the event still take place?
R	Yes, it does.
I	The burning of the effigy of Ravana (mythological figure)...
R	Yes. The burning of Ravana’ s effigy (as part of Dussehra festivities) is performed here.
I	What do you know of the sports hub planned by the municipality.
R	It is only a matter on paper. Nothing more.
I	What is your take on Sports hub?
R	If we go by the plan announced by the government regarding the sports hub, I would say let them build one. However, there has been no development to that end till now. We have been hearing about it for the last three to four years, but nothing has been done about it yet.
I	What do you know about the smart city mission in Jalandhar?
R	Everything is on the paper. But nothing tangible has been done so far. Pick a corner in the city and you will find garbage dumped indiscriminately.  Look around, there is garbage dumped even on roads. There is no evidence to support the implementation of the smart city mission.
I	What should a smart city be like?
R	There should be a round-the-clock supply of clean, drinking water. We don't even have access to clean water. The water we are provided with is soiled. Every morning when you open the newspaper there are reports of the water crisis. Water is a basic necessity. A smart city should be able to ensure clean and safe supply of water to the city. The streets should be neat and clean.
I	How would the sports hub affect your daily life?
R	The idea of building a sports hub is good. It would be a fresh change to the city’s environs. It would be cleaner and better.
I	If there wasn’t a Burlton park, how would it have been?
R	It wouldn’t have changed anything as such.
I	Any effect?
R	The obvious effect would have been the fact that people who come for walks and children who play here would have been bereft of a space for their activities. This is the only open space in Jalandhar now. There is no other park bigger than this. On paper it belongs to the government, but the latter has no involvement in it. It is the people who visit regularly. If this park wasn’t here…
I	You would have missed all these activities…
R	We would have missed it.
I	We wanted to understand a bit about digital technologies and its usage among people. Do you use a smartphone? For what purposes do you use it?
R	Frankly speaking, I don’t use it much. I simply make calls using the phone.
I	Do you have internet services in this?
R	Pardon?
I	Do you use the internet?
R	No, I don’t.
I	You use it for basic calling services…
R	Nothing more than that.
I	Not even WhatsApp
R	No.
I	Okay. Where do you see Jalandhar in the next ten to twenty years?
R	We used to think Jalandhar is a pretty decent place to live in, but now it is overpopulated. The traffic is heavier while the roads haven’t changed. The traffic is very high and it poses a big problem. It has led to pollution. The situation has deteriorated by day whether you look at the pollution problem or even the overpopulation issue. There is no sight of new roads while the traffic is overflowing.
I	So you think this is ominous to Jalandhar’ s future?
R	Traffic has increased more than what the roads can hold. If they don’t take care or somehow manage the issue it is going to pose serious problems. Pedestrians are wary of crossing the roads. We have to be very careful.
I	Thank you.

JI029
I	Tell us your name and age.
R	*** ***. I am 59 years old.
I	For how long have you been coming to Burlton park?
R	I have been coming here since I was in school and was about ten years old.
I	That’s a really long time.
R	Yes.
I	How do you like it here?
R	We didn’t live in this locality initially. I used to study at the central school here and visited this place as a schoolgoer. Now, we have had a house nearby for the last fifteen years. Earlier it was an occasional visit but now I come here regularly. There isn’t another park in the entire city as big as this one. People living as far as 20 km away visit the park. There are open spaces, fresh air and a track for walkers. You won’t find such a track for pedestrians in the whole city. The whole city flocks to this place, from 4 in the morning to 9 a.m and then again from five in the evening to 9 p.m. There are more than a thousand footfalls in the park every day.
I	What is that thing in Burlton park which you would accord utmost significance?
R	The atmosphere here is better. It is a good place to meet people and have a chat. The best part of life is being healthy. A daily walk here is rejuvenating.
I	What was Burlton park like when you first came here?
R	Earlier there was wilderness here. With time societies came up. There are two more parks here with two different societies handling it. People came together to raise funds. They developed the park as we see now and still take care of the maintenance. About 25 to 30 million have been spent on the park. The tracks have been renovated. Gardeners and caretakers were hired to look after the plants. The government did not spare a penny for the work here. All the responsibilities have been undertaken by the societies.
I	There have been dramatic improvements to this place…
R	Yes. This place has improved significantly. Now, we have space to take a walk or simply stroll, which did not exist earlier. This place was infested with snakes.
I	It was a jungle?
R	Yes. It was a wild area. There was no maintenance. The park was never as beautiful as it is now. After 15 to 20 years of upkeep, there was some progress to this place.
I	What does Burlton park lack in? What improvements would you suggest?
R	There is a lot of room for improvement if the government was willing to sit and take notice. We have limited funds and we can do only so much. Take the instance of Company Bagh. It is beautiful and well-maintained because the government takes care of the property. Here, we have to plan the work according to our budget.
I	What exactly is lacking in this place?
R	A lot remains to be done. We could plant more saplings and that would be really good for the place. We also wanted a per pool here. We need more lighting. Whatever street lamps you see, have been installed by us.
I	There is no light during the night?
R	We have some, but they are ones we have installed.
I	You need more of that…
R	We have spent 2 to 3 lakhs on the lighting throughout the park. We have also built this room and take care of it. We have rebuilt the track. The government had built the tracks some 20 to 25 years back. The contractors did a shoddy job and the tracks fell apart in a few months. We started the work afresh.
I	Any eventful memories of Burlton park you like to share?
R	There was a fight with the kattar (orthodox) in this place, in which their military prowess is showcased. We were in school then, when we were brought here to spend a night learning about the techniques of the fight. The practice went on here for one to two months.
I	You still remember that…
R	Yes. Children were shown the techniques of warfare.
I	And?
R	Leaders like Atal Vihari Bajpayee visited this place. Even Jag Jivan Ram was here. I think even Indira Gandhi had come. Who else? Let me see... There were several other internationally-known leaders who held rally here. Several religious meetings have also been conducted here in the vacant portions of the park. There are sermons or popular narrations of epics or folklore.
I	When did you first hear about the sports hub?
R	We have been hearing about the sports hub for the last 14 years. They tore down the existing structure and used up the money in dismantling. Then they left the place as it is without rebuilding the hub.
I	It's been 14 years since then?
R	There used to be international cricket matches held here.
I	What do you know about the smart city mission in Jalandhar?
R	What about that?
I	Do you know any one of the projects pertaining to the smart city? Or is it that you haven’t heard of it?
R	What about this smart city? When they couldn’t do anything about a non-smart city, what do we expect of them in a smart city? Nothing is going to change. Money will be pumped in, it will be spent but no work will be done. Their (government officials) apathy and lack of integrity will remain intact. They will launder the money. They are totally untrustworthy.
I	Did you read about the smart city projects in the newspaper?
R	Yes, I did. I have read about a host of projects being planned. But none of this will see the light of day. It will all remain a matter in the papers.
I	What according to you is a smart city?
R	It should be a clean city. There should be a proper sewage system.
I	Okay, clean city…
R	Yes. A clean India. There should be good sewerage. We are yet to have a round-the-clock supply of water.
I	There are water problems…
R	Yes. What smart city will they build when they can’t even provide water. Water pumps get exhausted from being run frequently while there is no sight of water.
I	So that has to be resolved first.
R	No. The corporation is totally incompetent. Even if smart is incorporated into the plans, they are incapable of executing it. They will fail in achieving the parameters set for a smart city. It is not just the case here, it is the case all over India. It is all the same around the country. They are birds of the same feather.
I	How would a sports hub affect the city?
R	Then the city will become famous. People from other cities will come here to watch international matches. The value of this place will rise. It will boost tourist influx.
I	What would your relationship with the smart city be like? I mean how do you see yourself in such a scheme of things?
R	We will be delighted. Provided it does take shape, we will be happy about it. It will be nice to live in a good environment. It is good for the city and the people who live here.
I	We are also studying digital technologies, so I would like to ask you if you use a smartphone. Do you have one?
R	Yes. I do.
I	What do you do with it?
R	There is no life without smartphones these days. The entire world is in your palms. We sit here and follow up on what's happening in America. We are sitting globetrotters. We can visit any country sitting here. You can Google anything and find out about situations in different countries. Google is our granny. In earlier times grannies told us about the world through stories. Now, we Google the stories.
I	Do you use smartphones to pay utility bills?
R	Yes.
I	So you use apps.
R	Yes.
I	What bills do you pay using apps?
R	Water, electricity, housing, all kinds of bills. It saves the commute time we used to spend on paying the bills. All work is done from home.
I	What kind of apps do you use? Like Ola, Uber, WhatsApp...
R	I use all of these whether WhatsApp or Ola or Uber.
I	Okay. Thank you.


JI030
I	Tell us your name and age.
R	My name is Dr. *** ***. I am 69 years old.
I	Where do you live?
R	My house is nearby. I live here near the park, in Gupta colony.
I	Do you have any parks there?
R	No. We don’t have any parks there. None of the adjoining localities like Hardev Nagar, Gupta colony, Rose Park, Shastri Nagar, have even a small park. In Saraswati Vihar there are tiny parks but it does not have provision for walking. Take into account areas like Labh Singh Nagar, Aman Nagar, Mithhu Basti, Bawa Basti, or the areas like Kabir Nagar, Gandhi Nagar. None of these places have a park in them.
I	So you have to come here (Burlton park) if you wanted to visit a park?
R	Yes. We have to come here if we want to visit a park. It applies to the entire city. I have friends who live far off, yet come to this park for walking. They would attest to the fact that there is no other place in the entire city conducive to walking. It is necessary to have a space for people to walk and stroll. People who live far away come on cycle or other vehicles.  There is absolutely no space elsewhere in the city for a walk.
I	For how long have you been coming to Burlton park?
R	I have been coming here since 1996, when I first came to the city from my native village. There used to be a cricket stadium here. Sometimes we used to go inside it. Soon after, the stadium authorities refused entry. So, we started coming to the park. Earlier the roads here were fractured. We used to take a walk on that. Eventually the roads improved. The JIT (Jalandhar Improvement Trust) stadium opened up. Some people created societies here to take care of the maintenance. Since then we come to the park, we go to a few of the smaller parks that have been developed, we walk on the tracks. All of these have been maintained by the people collectively.
I	How do you feel coming here?
R	I really like coming here now. Earlier this place wasn’t that good. Now societies and NGOs have done a good job. The place is enveloped with greenery. It has developed by leaps from its previous state. We cooperate with society in carrying out major functions. There is a good pavement for walking, there are benches to sit and rest, there are smaller stadiums with equipment for exercise, cardio. I come here twice a day. I come every evening. It is such a beautiful place, I don't want to miss coming here even for a day.
I	What do you think is the most important part of Burlton park?
R	The best part of it is the greenery, which you will not find elsewhere. This reminds of a story where a child tells the parents, you provided me with money, a house, with vehicles but what do I do without the trees you got rid of 25 years ago, which give oxygen. So, in that line of thought I would say the best thing about this place is the greenery and the trees which people have planted. It has taken care of the need for fresh air. Also, walking in the open and breathing air that comes from different kinds of trees has a healing effect on health. It is a good feeling to be here. I have not seen such a prolific tree cover in the entire city. You go to Model Town or Surya Enclave or any other localities deemed to be exemplary colonies, you won’t find such greenery. If we don’t have trees, humans would cease to exist. People will have to walk around with masks for lack of oxygen. Physical and mental development will be strained. I feel it is great that we have come together to take care of this place.
I	What was this place like when you first came here?
R	Earlier, around 1996, there was nothing worthwhile here. The roundabout which you see now, which is the ground, didn’t exist then. It was wilderness. People were scared of coming here. There were snakes and other wild animals. It used to be the refuge of vagrants and drug addicts. Not many people came here. Since then, it has been quite an improvement. There weren’t many trees then. There was no one to plant the saplings or take care of it. Some of us who walked regularly and were health conscious, used to flock to this place. Look around now. There are children, women, elderly, the healthy and the sick. All kinds  of people come to the park now. Earlier this place was not safe, there wasn’t a designated space for walking. Now we have a track, and a safe space for people to walk on. Street lamps have been posted everywhere inside the park. People spend time till late in the evenings. I have also seen children from not-so-affluent houses sudy under the street lamps among the trees. In a way it has turned into a facility, a safe haven for them. Smaller localities like Kabir nagar, Gandhi camp or Labh Singh Nagar have tiny houses. Children do not have spaces to sit and study. So they come here.
I	What are the shortcomings of Burlton park?
R	The government has offered no help whatsoever. This is a matter of six to seven acres of land. Festivals like Dussehra and Diwali are held here with great pomp. People fight for space to light up firecrackers. The place is ridden with dumps of waste. There is nobody taking care of the sanitation problem. This is the biggest shortcoming of this place. The government has no facility to take care of the waste disposal. The wind carries the odour from the dump yard into the areas where people walk. That is quite disgusting. People find it difficult to walk amidst the smell. The first and foremost priority should be removing the dump yard from here. Then the space for bursting firecrackers should be developed and put to use. On several occasions I have taken videos of people dumping garbage here and setting it afire and sent them to officials to draw their attention. They keep talking about clean India initiatives when people are dumping waste indiscriminately and lighting it up. I even downloaded the Swachh Bharat (Clean India) app and uploaded the videos on it, but no action has been taken yet. If the government wanted, it could have built lawns in the park, hired a gardener, taken care of water needs and created shelters here. The irony is that the government has built parks in areas where there are few visitors while it offers no support to parks flocked by large numbers of visitors. This is the lacuna on the part of the government. It should have ensured caretakers, undertaken repair work. It is the people who have invested money into the infrastructure of the park. I would like to thank the leaders of the NGOs and the societies who took it upon themselves to create this space for the common people. This should have been done by the government. Look at the dumps and the traffic. They couldn’t even resolve the traffic issue by themselves. We had made several attempts at stopping the traffic through the park as it posed a threat to the walkers but to no avail.  This is the only place for people to walk, exercise and relax. Still, they haven’t taken care of the traffic here. There are people gambling here, smoking up in the corners. I don’t understand what is the use of PCR (police control room) vans if they can’t even put an end to those activities. The government advertises that tobacco is bad for health but people openly indulge in such activities. If you try to talk them out of it, they start fighting. It is the government’s job to stop people who are openly indulging in drug abuse. A lot has changed for the better in this place, yet people try to make hell out of it.
I	What do you know about the sports hub?
R	I am acquainted with the sports hub idea. But I don’t know what exactly their (the government) plan is. There is a hockey stadium here. There is the main stadium and additionally a smaller stadium. The cricket stadium was really good. They tore it down and spent money on dismantling the structure. I don’t know what else they want. There is already a good tennis lawn ground. They could have developed infrastructure and honed a few sporting activities. That could have led to a sports hub eventually. If they intend to commercialise the space in the name of sports hub, open huge hotels, or sell the land off in shady deals for some corporate forces to profit from it, then the sports hub will remain only in name. We had such a good stadium already in place. It was of national importance. Why did they not maintain that?  They could develop the existing stadiums. I think the plan is to build big hotels on the land allocated for the sports hub. Tenders will be allotted to bigger companies for profiteering. I have been hearing about the hub for the past 26 years. Several governments have changed hands. We are at a loss as to whose dream project is this that it has been more than 26 years and yet it has failed to materialise. The leaders do not have the will power to execute such a plan. To begin with they should have consulted with some people who live here and taken their input to see if the plan held water. The plan has not been displayed anywhere for the people to see and form an opinion. If they commercialise the space we will take to the roads. We would not have any space to walk.
I	Did the municipal corporation consult with you regarding the sports hub?
R	Not a single official has consulted us on the sports hub. Whatever we know, we have gathered from the newspapers. Sometimes we have heard the mayor’s statement on the sports hub plans. Then there are some vested groups who claim they are invested with the job of developing sports hub. I am a class I officer. I have been coming here for decades. Yet, I have never actually seen the plan. They should display the blueprint of the hub here for public view. They should consult with the retired people on the plans. They should not sell the land off in the name of sports hub.
I	What do you know about the Jalandhar smart city mission?
R	The Modi government at centre had announced the smart city mission. They took up a few cities as a project and declared them smart cities. A smart city is supposed to be clean, drinking water problems will be resolved, there will be proper sewerage, better transport and communication and better sanitation. We are yet to receive such benefits. Nothing tangible has been done so far. There are dumps everywhere, even those from Haryana lying around here. What kind of smart city will they build? They keep spilling waste on the roads as the waste disposal trucks move along the road. It is the Supreme Court’s directive that the trucks carrying dumps to the dump yard should be closed vehicles. The corporation workers carry the waste in open trucks. As the vehicle moves, the garbage keeps falling onto the roads. The smell it leaves behind is a travail for people walking on the roads. A smart city should have better facilities for the people. Basic amenities like roads and hospitals should be uniformly provided. I think while people here suffer from the need for basic amenities, the smart city will be for the privileged. There are streets which have no lamps, there is the problem of stray dogs, the roads are ridden with potholes. Instead of taking care of that they talk about smart cities. In 75 years of independence, nothing has changed. Every 3 to 4 years, the roads fall apart. What smart city are they talking about? If they had initiated pilot projects earlier, in 75 years a lot could have been achieved. The politicians are simply taking us people on a ride. If you remember, the government had launched a scheme where every member of Parliament was supposed to adopt a village and turn into a model village. They had a huge grant for this. After the elections, no development took place in the adopted villages. Where did the crores of rupees assigned for the purpose vanish? This (smart city mission) is a hogwash meant to fool people. Let us take the simple instance of the roads here. There is a single path which has to bear the burden of two-wheelers, pedestrians and tractors alike. Do you find a single pedestrian path on the roads today? On top of that street vendors take up space on the same road. The corporation washes off its responsibility by charging 100 rupees from the vendors against permission to park their shops on the road. The hawkers throw their garbage on the roads. The smart city is just a lollipop the government has handed down to the people. What will these people (officials) do? They have to prove their worth first. There are dumps everywhere. They have imposed cow cess. But they don’t use the money to take care of the stray cattle. You can’t build a smart city in air. You have to put some work into it first. Let them show some practical work. Everything is in theory.
I	What according to you is a smart city?
R	In a smart city there should be provision for good and accessible education and healthcare facilities for the poor. Private education is unaffordable for the poorer sections. Private hospitals are looting people, while civil hospitals don't have constant access to medicines or doctors. A city will be smart if there are better public amenities. There should be good roads for proper conveyance. This is such a big city, yet there is no provision for an effective public transport system. So many autorickshaws run in the city, but 70% of them don't have legitimate paperwork done. This has aggravated the problem of pollution. There is no one to put a check on it. Only when people get these facilities that a smart city could be built. They want to build a hub. But I can propose a better plan to develop the entire area. If they wanted to create a sports hub, they could simply use the land in the outskirts of the city. Those who want to use the facilities could travel to the outskirts on their vehicle for practice. If people can send their children to Canada or the South (of India) for better education, they can definitely travel a few kilometers outside the city for sports practice. The government knows this is an apt place for commercialisation, which will push the land value further. There used to be an old food market around which there used to be a few schools. The politicians had an eye on the land there. They removed the schools and offices there and now it is a parking lot for cars. These people work only for themselves. A smart city should have distinct rules in place for the benefit of people. Pedestrians should have an exclusive pathway. The police’s job has been reduced to issuing challans. Have they put any thought into traffic maintenance in a smart city?
I	I had missed a question. Do you have any special memory of Burlton park? Any event you might remember?
R	There is no such special memory. There were twice such occasions in life when I suffered from knee pain and back pain. I came to Burlton park for regular walks and that healed me. If there wasn’t such a park it would have been difficult to find a place to walk. Now, I am a frequent visitor. This is good for walking and stretching exercise. Second thing is the chance of interacting with so many people. It provides mental relaxation. At home I would have been sitting alone. But here, there are so many people I could meet and talk to and relieve mental stress. When we sit together and look at the trees, it reminds us of the people we planted the trees with. I remember the saplings I had planted here. The cricket ground had no plants. I work with an environmentalist Babaji. I told people here we need trees at the stadium. Those who come for sports practice can rest under the trees. People agreed to it. The 200-300 plants you see at the cricket ground were planted by me. I requested Babaji to help. He sent people, we dug the ground and planted the seeds about three to four years back. I take pleasure in telling my friends about the plants. If, on my walks, I find some plants drying, I ask the caretakers to water them. I have a deep attachment to this place.
I	I had a few more questions about digital literacy. Do you use smartphones?
R	Yes. I do use a smartphone.
I	To what end?
R	I think the function of calling or receiving calls is the least important one. It has larger benefits. We can access any kind of information from YouTube or Google. I am an educator. I look for methods of teaching and learning on the internet. I learn about how to develop curriculums. There are several sites and apps to look for educational materials.  We can also get medical advice from the internet on what to eat or drink or wear. We can keep a tab on sleeping patterns, the kind of exercise we need etc. We get all kinds of information from smartphones. We can gain general awareness from a smartphone. I had studied in political science that our parliament had 545 seats. So, when I read somewhere that there are 552 seats, I had a doubt.  I searched the government website and read on the phone about the updated information. There is a provision for getting proper information. We can also learn about science, environment and have entertainment. I agree there are problems of addiction. I tell my students in school to use it wisely. Children are getting addicted to smartphones nowadays. I think there will be deaddiction centres to help children with smartphone addiction. Some people have been conditioned such that without putting on headphones they have bowel issues and eating disorders. I use it only for the benefits it offers. We get information from the government or of the world.
I	Do you pay utility bills online?
R	Yes. I pay them online. Whether water or electricity or telephone, all transactions are done online.
I	Okay. Thank you.


JI035
I	Firstly, tell me your name?
R	*** ***.
I	What is your age?
R	I am 55years old.
I	What is your job?
R	I am a businessman. I have my own gift centre.
I	Tell me about the history of Burlton Park.
R	Yes, Burlton Park is in the Jalandhar north area and expands to 62 acres. Englishmen established this park. This is heard from our ancestors that in the British era it was built and expanded in 62 acres.
I	Okay.
R	Plants, greenery, school and open areas were there.
I	Right.
R	At the time of independence, the population was 300000 to 400000 but now it has become populated and become 3000000. And from time to time the Jalandhar becomes modified.
I	Well.
R 	And four constituencies are there and from time-to-time government changes and come with new projects but not practically do it.
I	Okay...
R	Now all those promised projects about smart cities in all India are made by the central government.
I	Good.
R	Yes, we have heard that Jalandhar is also selected that’s good for the development of Jalandhar by the central government.  If projects were made by the government about health, sanitation, greenery and traffic control. It’s good for the development of one society. It is good for the development of the park.
I	Right.
R	As I know that when the government makes new projects five to six societies are present in Burlton park, like Burlton park welfare society, health society, international society and all other societies.
I	Well.
R	All these societies have said to the central government and state government that all these projects are good but greenery should not be demolished. In this case, this park society made a case against the government in court when greenery was demolished. And NGT also supports the case. And the court decided in favour of NGT.
I 	What happened after this?
R	These societies announced that whenever the environmental department and greenery department doesn't give the government NOC still, no other projects will be updated. This result was made by the High Court. If sports or five-star hotels are going to be established we are happy for this but greenery shouldn’t be demolished and smart city news is a good news for us.
I	When did you start to come here?
R	I came for 45 years constantly. I came here for the first time when I was 10 years old.
I	Nice.
R	When we were coming here, there was a school, green plants and a tube well. And now they changed everything, made a cricket stadium, hockey stadium like this and selected it for smart city, and six societies maintain it.
I	How do you feel after visiting this park?
R	We enjoy it a lot. We like to come to this park and about thousands of people come here to walk. We love to see the children, plants and trees. Society made it very modified and there are many swings for children. There are also many trees, about 6000-7000 according to the survey.
I	You people survey it?
R	Exactly, we the people survey and number it ourselves. When the high court requested, we make a video graphic, we made a video graphic and about 7000 trees are there.
I	Done.
R	We have no objection to this advancement but not to demolish the trees.
I	What changes are made in this park?
R	See in this area the traffic control light, clean children swings and many things change in this time.
I	Okay.
R	We see that when the government gives one thing on contract is it university or land the development of this thing stops. The government shouldn’t contract anything but give the responsibility to the state government or central government for any project. If any hospital or education institutions or parks are given to lease, they wouldn’t grow.
I	I understand you. Which thing is important for you in this park?
R	The important thing is greenery for us but the hockey stadium, cricket stadium and other swings are also enjoyable.
I	What shortcomings are in this park?
R	I think that the government should pre-plan the 62-acre area in Jalandhar to establish more parks and open areas for natural incidents like earthquakes, floods and last time the war is going to happen with Pakistan. For these earthquake incidents the open area is required where two to three lacs people come together in one place.
I	Yes.
R	They should make plans for an open area population which is two to three lac greenery, playground, oxygen and water management which is managed and planned by the government.
I	When was the first time you heard about the sports hall and what came to mind about this?
R	At that time, we asked where they got the opinions from to make a decision about this but they said we are the president, mayor, commissioner we don’t need to take opinions from the public to make decisions. But at that time the government itself decides everything.
I	Got it.
R	We oppose the government in such a way, requesting that they need to take decisions from the public opinions but they repeat that we don’t need the public decision. We said that around the 62-lac area in adjacent 25 colonies are established. These colonies also have representatives you need to take decisions from. We don’t like this.
I	Yes.
R	That’s why we came to the High Court in Delhi and Centigrade House. We appeal that whatever they want to make, just get reviews from the public. And establish those projects which the public need.
I	What do you know about Jalandhar smart city?
R	Jalandhar is one of the selected cities in Punjab under the president of a different government where the government made a plan to invest many millions of rupees so a smart city should have a good education system, reduce traffic congestion, good health system, railways track and road construction. This is all we read from newspapers and these visions are seen in that and as you talked about 40% for these areas.
I	Yes.
R	Like all other smart cities such as Bangor and Kenny and all other cities are good so these visions are also good for us. It is only selected for Punjab but it should be for the whole city then more progress is possible.
I	Do the municipality and other local residents have consultation about smart city?
R	As I have said to you, the society president, mayor, commissioner and all other authorities’ corporation officers haven’t consulted with anyone. As they made the smart city in charge of the local commissioner and they don’t survey it. They haven’t taken decisions about the irrigation system from the public.
I	Right.
R	They don’t display the map from where the road will lag and where to lead, they don’t tell anyone about the investment, the nature of the project, the cost of the project. How long it will be? No one knows about anything. They decide everything according to their personal point of view.
I	Well.
R	We just read everything from the newspaper.
I	According to you, how should the smart city be?
R	In developed countries that got freedom a few years ago I can say our independence is many years ago but these developed countries' progress is very advanced to ours.
I	Right.
R	Our President should survey the developed countries and observe their pipeline system and roads.
I	Okay.
R	I give you a common example of Sher Shah Suri in 1850 made five grand trunk roads in all India Muslim league.
I	Well.
R	Before 50 years he was not an architect he didn't make a map but he knew after 50 years how large the population will be so he made one 20 feet wide roads.
I	Right.
R	He expected at that time after 200 years how large the population will be and the rush of traffic also. At that time, he thought about the well and plantation
I	Good.
R	Our today and other high-level officers should think about the smart cities facilities like today our population is three million after 100 years our population become 200 million will our smart city handle the new generations’ needs?
I	Okay. If a smart city is established, how will it impact your daily life?
R	People say whatever will happen we don’t care our property will increase.
I	Right.
R	People you know are selfish, they think about their personality at their little level.
I	Nice.
R	But development is with greenery, water systems and all other things everyone should think at a higher level and also the future.
I	Okay.
R	But people think of building large houses, educate children. This is not good but everyone should think about the country's development and everyone should play a role in country development.
I	Are you expecting a brilliant future?
R	Yes, every change will be positive.
I	Okay
I	As you said 40 projects for our country.
I	Yes.
R	Then after building a smart city the changes can easily happen as the education and health system of our country will improve, then unemployment should also be eliminated then will move the whole country to development.
I	What do you expect in the next ten to two years in Jalandhar?
R	The politicians of Punjab should change themselves and think about the high level of media, industry, sports in Jalandhar then it becomes good.
I	Okay.
R	But in the past Punjab was number one state but now is at eight or ten.
I	Right
R	It means its progress has stopped. The government should think our state has every source like agriculture, sports and all other also. Then why does our state decline? And west is developed including UP Bihar also.
I	Nice.
R	Every government should think about how our state can move forward and they should work on it.


JI038
I:	First of all, tell me your name and age?
R	I am 79 years old, and my name is *** ***.
I	Okay, so where do you stay?
R	By Uprose Park.
I	Okay. Are there any parks in the locality?
R	This is the only park in the 56-acre plan.
I	Okay, when do residents come here to use the park?
R	I cannot tell, my wife is not feeling well now. She is not well; she is from the valley. We used to come before.
I	Well.
R	I have a son; he has to go to the bank. That's why he can't come. He goes to the gym.
I	Okay.
R	Most residents come to this park. 
I	How do you feel about coming here?
R	It seems great, there is greenery. I think it could be better if there is proper management because maniple don’t give us any help. This park as well is maintained by ourselves.
I	Okay.
R	We continued over the year. The plant was closed and 500 per annum. All of us that came here for picnics contributed
I	Well.
R	We hired gardeners. 	
I	Well.
R	We feel good because there are lots of greenery.
I	Well. How long have you been coming here?
R	I have been coming here since 2000.
I	Okay.
R	It's 2019. I have been coming here for around 18 or 19 years.
I	Okay, how was this space when you first came?
R	This was plain ground with soil only.
I	Well.
R	There was no greenery at all.
I	Well.
R	There was one municipal commissioner whose name was Sajed, he came here.
I	Well.
R	He was the one who started this effective greenery of the whole of this city.
I	Hmm.
R	He started making parks everywhere and from there about 10 of 15 years ago, this was also created. You can see there are many trees, greenery.
I	Well.
R	There was just soil before.
I	Well
R	Kids used to play here in the soil. This was the one tree and the other all was unfertile land.
I	Well, so what are the things most important to you in Burlton park?
R	There is greenery in Burlton Park.
I	Hmm.
R	If there is a park, there must be greenery there.
I	Hmm.
R	If other things as well come here, like hockey ground, it would be better. They intended to make a swimming pool and hockey ground; a cricket ground is already there. Let's see. If it becomes a sports complex, greenery is already there; it will look good.
I	Hmm, can you share some of your memories of Burlton Park? Any specific memories.
R	Special memories are... I became Polytechnique's manager in 1962
I	Okay.
R	Way back from 69 to 72, I studied here in this college for 3 years.
I	Okay.
R	We used to play cricket.
I	Hmm.
R	Roundabout we called this area.
I	Hmm.
R	As there is this saying that the world is round, so I am back here after 50 years. I am back there
I	Hmm.
R	We sit right there and drink tea.
I	Hmm.
R	These are the same memories. There on that ground, cricket matches used to be held.
I	Hmm.
R	Now they have demolished that ground and remade that. They said that they would do this and that but they didn’t.
I	Well.
R	There was a cricket ground and we used to play cricket there when we were young in school and college.
I	What do you seem lacking here?
R	Lacking... that area is open and there is no cleanliness. There is no cooperation in tourism.
I	Hmm.
R	There should be cleanliness.
I	Hmm.
R	If you go to any European country, you will see that the parks are really good and clean, there is not even a single wrapper on the ground.
I	Hmm.
R	Don't go foreign, go to Haryana, the parks there are very well maintained. Those are bigger than these.
I	Hmm.
R	This is the only park in Jalandhar. That's why I am giving attention to these things that there should be many parks so that people can come there, kids can come there. They can sit there. There is no such system. There should be more greenery in my opinion. This could be more beautiful.
I	Well, what do you think, what else can be made here?
R	Greenery, I think there could become sports complex,
I	Hmm.
R	There is a hockey ground, it should be repaired.
I	Hmm.
R	There is a cricket ground, there should be a stadium. Their space is empty. They can make anything there. As about 10 to 15 years ago it was suggested that there should be a golf ground.
I	Hmm.
R	I started creating golf clubs but that project was shut down, I started again but then politicians came, they said that they won't let that happen. Then opposition came and that project was totally stopped otherwise there would have been greenery and so on.
I	Hmm, when did you hear about sports clubs before and what did you think about it?
R	I heard about 5 to 7 years ago that there a man called Mr. ***
I	Hmm.
R	He came about 10 years ago.
I	Hmm.
R	He had this dream project that could be turned into a beautiful sports complex having a parking area, club, and swimming pool.
I	Hmm.
R	The idea was pretty good but he had an idea to make a market here in this place. If a market will come here then the beauty will vanish.
I	Hmm.
R	That's why local residents approached them and that project didn't start.
I	Well, what do you know about Jalandhar smart city?
R	I have heard and seen it in newspapers but don't know in detail. I heard that they are going to make a project, they have to cover this whole area, this Burlton Park area as well. But you know in India, these things come in newspapers but nothing happens in reality. Sometimes opposition comes and sometimes their funds misplaced. I mean there is no proper planning.
I	Well, was there any proper consultation with residents about the smart city?
R	Yes, they asked for the suggestion in the paper, that what should happen here.
I	Hmm
R	What should be there in our smart city? What do you prefer?
I	Hmm, hmm.
R	They made a form on the paper and gave it to me.
I	Hmm, hmm.
R	About 20 percent of the opinion paper was asking what do you want.
I	Hmm.
R	Everyone gave their opinion.
I	Hmm.
R	In the paper. That's all I know.
I	Okay, according to you what is a smart city?
R	There should be a good path in a smart city, good roads, there should be basic facilities available to all citizens as there are in European cities, you may have seen if you ever had a chance to go and visit abroad.
I	Hmm.
R	Those things are not available there. It should be well organized and there should be lights on roads and the city should be lightened properly. As their lights are damaged, then those do not get fixed for many years. There are no garbagemen to pick up the trash regularly. There is garbage everywhere. If you can see, many of the places are unhealthy to live.
I	Hmm.
R	There is no cleanliness.
I	Hmm,
R	There should be cleanliness and greenery. There should be properly managed and well-planned roads.
I	Hmm.
R	So that people can follow those rules and regulations. Lights should be fixed.
I	Hmm.
R	As a good city.
I	Hmm.
R	There should be proper planning, there is a lack of planning.
I	Well, what do you think about the future of Jalandhar? How will it be in 10 or 20 years?
R	See; if we go back to 1950 when my father came to Pakistan, we went to Firozpur, and then he was transferred in the 50s to Jalandhar. I see minor developments, not any big development. I have been seeing the same road for 50 years. There are 4 cars in each home but the roads are the same.
I	Hmm.
R	There is no proper system, like fly over or anything like that to improve traffic.
I	Hmm.
R	All in a mess.
I	Hmm.
R	In my opinion, there is no proper development.
I	You are not hopeful.
R	I don’t think so. Yes, if there is any good government then it could happen but there is too much corruption in us, including me all are corrupt.
I	Hmm.
R	If they serve only 70 percent of the given budget on this, this city can become heaven. This could become a paradise.
I	Hmm.
R	But they don’t spend that money. What will be the future if you will spend 20 percent out of 100? I don’t see any future.
I	Hmm.
R	It will keep on going in this way, some will become and some not.
I	Hmm, thank you.


JI040
I	Please tell your name and age first?
R	My age is 32 and my name is *** ***.
I	Okay, what do you do here?
R	I have a clothing shop here.
I	Okay.
R	It's kid's variety here. All the kids clothing variety, the cheap one. Where kids suit come for 50 to 100 Rs range. The normal variety for common, poor people that's there of affordable range. Running items for regular use.
I	How long have you been working here?
R	It's 35-40 years old shop. Initially my grandfather used to work here, then my father worked here, it's our third generation here, now I am sitting here.
I	How brought your grandfather here?
R	It's an old history. Now my grandfather is no more. Earlier it was one of relatives’ place who started making my grandfather sit here, then my father worked here and now it's my turn.
I	So, can you tell us some history about this market?
R	About history…this is a very old market. Rest, there are so many shops doing business here, each shop has couple of workers who earn their bread and butter.
I	Right, so how do you feel about working here.
R	There is work so it’s good. Rest is good, work is good. The survival is taken care of. It is taken care of well.
I	No, so this placed Jyoti chowk where you work, how do you like this place?
R	No, the place is alright, it's good. There is nothing wrong in working, if it's a small business or big. Street vendors are better these days than the showrooms. Only those who are rich, who have a lot of money will go to the showrooms, where will the poor folks go? They will come to us to buy clothes, right? A rickshaw puller who has to buy something of 50 to 100, he will come to us, he will get vests for 25-30, if he goes to showroom the same thing will cost him 80 Rs. It's good for the poor folks, it's good for us too, we also get our 5-10 Rs margin.
I	Okay, in the Jyoti Chowk market what is it that has a great importance for you?
R	Important is this, that the market is joint here, there is vegetable market, fruit market, clothing market and then sports market, everything is close to each other, one can buy everything after coming to Jyoti Chowk. If the government builds a project here, or builds a mall here, one will have to go to different places for different things. If one has come to buy clothes, they take vegetables along. If they have come for vegetables, they buy clothes also. That's how the things go. 
I	So, you get everything here?
R	You get everything.
I	When you came here initially how was the market?
R	Market was the same, it is alright. Since the beginning the market here has been like this, and 2 years back during Diwali there was a fire here, so there has been a little repair work done here. So, have been sitting like this…
I	What changes have happened in the market that you see?
R	There has not been any change. It's alright, the things have been going fine.
I	Okay, and, here, what are the shortcomings in the market?
R	Shortcoming are…like there is some issue with the cleanliness or there is no water, there are no toilets or bathrooms nearby. If any customer asks about toilet, what do we tell him…no, there is no toilet here. If we have to go to the toilet or latrine we have to go to the civil hospital, it's so far away, if a customer comes and asks about toilet, we feel ashamed that there is no toilet in the market, there is nothing here. The government has not built a toilet for us here. There is some empty government space in the backside, there was stand earlier which was vacated. They should get toilets or something built there, if a customer comes and asks about it at least we will be in a position to say that yes there is a toilet there. Over there in Shekhan bazaar the toilets have been built but they are a little far away from the market. That's the thing.
I	And what kind of interaction you have with the corporation?
R	Corporation…earlier like we are sitting here so there was a charge for it earlier, they used to take rent, that's all it is so there is not much interaction with them.
I	So, do you get to meet them regularly; like do they come to the market?
R	No, they don’t come that much. Nobody comes…
I	So, the smart city that is being built in smart city, what do you know about it?
R	They definitely must build smart city, but the earlier projects that they planned they must be finished first, right? It should be like one should keep taking the new projects and keep leaving the old ones. The water problem gets so big that they are not able to deal with it, where are they going to build the smart city. During the rainy season Rainak bazaar gets completely logged with so much water, first the outlet for water should be there only then the smart city will be built. First these smaller issues must be...there is no electricity here, look, there is no lighting in our market. First these things should be fulfilled, then talk about smart city. If the smart city is built then our poor folks will completely be unemployed.
I	Why do you think so?
R	They will become unemployed. Every shop has around 10 people working…if they shift it…either they first do something about us, like, they say that yes you work here, or build shops here or do your business here we have to make smart city here, then it's a different thing. There should be some project here. Many years back there was a project here, the colleague here told you about that...
I	Which project?
R	I don’t know the name of the project and who made it. Project was built, it was Meh…*** *** who made the project and created a map of this place and it was said that we will shift you, a mall will be built here. He made the complete map of it. We agreed to him at that time. But after that he also became slow on it in the midway. There is Fish market there, they had to build a mall there, they also got the space vacated, and then the people who worked there all became unemployed, and yet nothing was built there. That place is still empty. There is no use of that empty place now. It's just useless right and those who were working there got uprooted for no reason, that was a wrong thing.
I	What is a smart city in your opinion?	
R	Smart city is one which has good water outlet, the lighting arrangement is good, there are toilets at certain intervals, main things… if the main things are not fulfilled then... There should be greenery, there is no greenery here in the market, park…park is so far away. Look it's so hot here in the city and where is greenery, there is no greenery here.
I	And, did anyone come from the corporation to speak about smart city?
R	Nobody came to me. Rest I don’t know, not to me but may to the head or to someone else they might have gone but nobody came to me. Only you have come to me now.
I	What do you think about the future of Jalandhar, in 20 years?
R	Jalandhar is like that… the roads are in bad shape and they will get worse, this is the future of it. The roads have not been built yet. Look at the roads here… coming from home till here, on the way the vehicle goes into the potholes 50 times…bang, bang...what's the solution in that? The roads should be built first.


JI041
I	First, please tell me your age and name.
R	My age is 50 years.
I	What is your name.
R	*** ***.
I	Okay, so what's that you do?
R	I am vendor, I sell old clothes.
I	How long have you been doing this work?
R	30 years, 30-32 years.
I	How did you come here?
R	Just that, after 12th class came here for work, did a job in this bazaar.
I	Okay.
R	The shop is there for 30 years.
I	Okay, so you came here for work and you …
R	Yes, a small one.
I	Okay, here at the Jyoti chowk market, how do you feel to work here?
R	It's okay. I get my bread and butter. Nothing happens with that. We sustain our family. There is no hope. I don’t save lakhs of rupees. The earning is half of the household expenses, half goes in interest, committees, other transactions, even that is not fulfilled. I come at 9:30 in the morning and it get 9 or 10 at night here. Customer is not there. The business is in deep slumps. You know it's very hot here. There is business only for 2 months here, December and January. The rest is in front of you. The market is empty.
I	Okay, so your work is mainly in winters?
R	Yes, that's right.
I	Alright, here in this market, what is it that is the most important for you?
R	It's obviously one's work. Like, in the morning, it's our shop that's here. If the shop is here, we come here to work, if the shop were not here, how would we come for work? Ours is a cheap market, old Guru Nanak market, there is old Guru Nanak market in Jalandhar. We come here; we know we have a shop here. If smart city is built, we won’t be here. You are yourself intelligent. If there are big buildings here, everything is built in the bottom on the top, all the rich men of the city will but that, where will we go? We don’t have an issue with the construction of smart city, it should be built. First of all, it must be thought about the poor that these men are working and sustaining their families. If our shops are not there, where will we go? Sunday bazaar takes place, the condition is bad in Sunday bazaar. The shopkeepers make trouble, policemen create trouble, the public (00:02:24-00:02:25 Unintelligible). The policemen are also fine, poor guys carry out their duty. Policemen are also fine, if they make us move, they also do their duty. There is heavy rush here, because of the crowd the traffic gets jammed.
I	Okay.
R	That's the thing. Say it…
I	When you came here first, how was this place?
R	When I came here first the market was like this only.
I	Okay
R	Yes
I	I mean what changes have come here since you came?
R	There is no change, it's the same as it was. The work was same earlier, it is the same now.
I	Okay
R	Here poor people come. The rich do not come here at all. Rich does not come here only the poor come here.
I	Has there been any new thing in the market in 10-20 years, any change…
R	Change is that the business has reduced.
I	Okay
R	The change has indeed come. The business has slowed down.
I	Okay, the business here has come down…
R	There is a slump since 8th of November…
I	Alright Why?
R	Since the note ban…
I	Okay
R	Since then, the business is half of half…
I	Because of note-ban…
R	Because of note-ban…
I	Okay, alright, what are the shortcomings here in the market?
R	There are shortcomings everywhere.
I	If you have to bring somethings, what changes can be brought in to this market?
R	What shall I tell you about this…we bring our own stuff. And get is all collected here.
I	No, like, some people said that the toilets can be built here…
R	Right, right…
I	In that way, I mean, for the improvement of the market.
R	Yes, the bathroom should be there, it's not here. The ladies… where the poor ladies are there…those our Gujarati people are there behind there who deal in old cloths and utensils for household and bring clothes here by selling those…their females are there...there is no bathroom here. 
I	Okay, so it's that. Do you have memories connected with your shop or the market that you would like to share with us?
R	Yes, earlier the business was very good initially. Now it's just for the survival. Like the bail which was 5000 Rs. earlier now comes for 15000 Rs. Rate is the same, for example say earlier it used to sell for 50 not it sells for 100.
I	Okay. Was there any incident in this market that you still remember?
R	Yes. There was fire twice in the market. Our market got destroyed. Once it happened 15 years back then a year back, everything got burnt into ashes.
I	All the material…got burnt.
R	Yes, yes. The government gave nothing.
I	Okay, alright. Okay, so when do the corporation folks come here?
R	No, they don’t come here.
I	Okay. So, how do you deal, I mean, what kind of relations you have with them?
R	The relations are very good. They are good people.
I	Okay. The smart city that's going on in Jalandhar, what do you know about it?
R	What's there to know. There is no time. We come here in the morning and go back at night. Someone who is a millionaire or a billionaire will think about it.
I	Okay
R	We have so many of our own troubles…fees for children, school fees, tuition fees for the kids, gym fees for the kids. We get up and come to the shop at 7:30-8 in the morning and work quickly and go back in the evening. That's all…survival is carried out...
I	You must have read something in the newspaper that the smart city is being built…
R	Yes, yes, it's being built. It was written. I also heard about it. It's good that it's being built, smart city should be built. We should first of all think about the poor, right, like for example our market is there, this should be built better.
I	Did someone from municipality come to talk about smart city?
R	No one came.
I	For consultation?
R	(00:06:44-00:06:53) Unintelligible
I	What is a smart city in your opinion?
R	The rush (traffic) should be reduced for example it gets crowded during the festivals, those who are street vendors like us, what to do, there is no other choice, our goods are sold on GT road only, the cheap things you know, they sell on GT road, this won’t be sold in the showrooms, things for 20, 50, 30 ...
I	Okay, so what should be there in a smart city?
R	In a smart city…you are intelligent
I	I mean according to you…
R	According to me there should be a lot of things, we should have good shops here, (00:07:28-00:07:32 Unintelligible)
I	Okay, so right now, on Jyoti Chowk they have set up a project for traffic congestion, do you know anything about it? That they will develop the chowk…
R	No, I don’t know about it. You know, *** ***, *** ***, *** *** talk to them, they know better than us. You know *** ***, ***, he has gone for a month, talk to *** ***(00:07:59-00:08:03 Unintelligible).
R	The clothing market in our Guru Nanak market, it is very good for the people, because poor people come here, the goods are very cheap. Someone comes and buys a shirt for 200 and pants for 200, for 400 Rs. he buys almost new clothes that too imported. Where would he be able to buy shirt for 200, pant for 200? There is vegetable market, fruits market, clothing market, poor ladies come here, you have seen it, suit for 100, pyjama for 100, capri for 100 Rs. and that too imported. There is benefit to the people from our market. Common people have a lot of benefit from it.
I	I mean, in Jalandhar, people have a lot of benefits from this market.
R	To the poor.  
R2	People from the poor class.
R	You are intelligent.
R3	80% people are poor, that 80%...


JI073
I:	First of all, tell me your name?
R	Okay.
I2	Tell me, do you have any issues with recording?
R	I don’t have any problem. It is good for all, not only for me. Everybody came for his health. 
I	Okay.
R	And health is wealth.
I	Okay.
R	If a person has good health, then he has a good heart and a good soul.
I	Hu-huh.
R	If he doesn’t have good health, then definitely he cannot do anything.
I	Uh-huh.
R	So, everyone comes here for his good health. And health is good, that means if a person comes for one time, he must come for the second time. Then he comes again and again.
I	How long have you been coming to Burlton Park?
R	I have been visiting Burlton Park for three years.
I	Three years?
R	Yes.
I	So where do you visit before that?
R	I don’t go anywhere. I stay at home.
I	What made you decide to visit?
R	I used to walk on the roof of my house.
I	Well.
R	We do not think about visiting, I have a lawn where I used to visit. But after that somebody told us about yoga.
I	Well.
R	So, I go for yoga in Burlton park. It has a good environment.
I	Yes.
R	And secondly, there is greenery. It is very amazing. It is good to take a breath in the fresh air.
I	Uh-huh.
R	Breathing is the most important thing. You cannot see it anywhere. It was given by God.
I	Uh-huh.
R	So, we get everything here. You cannot get it at home. When we laugh here, we have amazing feelings.
I	Well.
R	All the veins are open when people are laughing here. People who come here don't suffer from cold, cough or fever. Other people suffer rapidly from this. 
I	Uh-Huh.
R	….by bacteria. So, we get these things for free, so tell me why we shouldn't visit here. That’s why we visit here and meet people. We used to talk with others which made us happy.
I	Uh-huh.
R	You get bored at home. How can you live alone? Kids are on their jobs. When we talk to kids, we will do it via cell phone and here we can talk personally.
I	Uh-huh.
R	We share our experiences on anything.
I	Do you know more people after visiting here?
R	Yes, it is natural. My social network has increased. We know about strangers.
I	Well.
R	It is a good thing. Social life is good as well as family life.
I	Yes.
R	And it makes our souls happy. It is the biggest deal, that is the happiness of heart that we get here.
I	When did you move to Jalandhar?
R	After marriage, approximately 40 years ago.
I	From where did you migrate to Jalandhar?
R	From Delhi.
I	From Delhi?
R	Yes.
I	We are from Delhi.
R	Oh, well, from which place in Delhi?
I	GK I, South Delhi.
R	Well. I am Jangpura.
I	Yes, it is very near.
R	We are from Jamtara.
I	Well.
R	And my son lives there.
I	Where do you live in Jalandhar, and where were you for 40 years?
R	Here in Jalandhar?
I	How far is your house from here?
R	It is near, you can go on foot.
I	So, in the last 40 years, have you given interviews like this?
R	No, in any function or event otherwise I didn’t attend.
I	Well.
R	Like, we are seeing now, we didn’t see before.
I	Did you visit Burlton Park 40 years ago?
R	Yes, we did visit occasionally. If there is any function or ceremony.
I	Well.
R	But we didn’t see it like this.
I	Okay.
R	Is Burlton Park very different now?
I	What are the changes?
R	They planted many trees.
I	So, it means there were not many trees before?
R	They maintain it perfectly now.
I	Okay.
R	It was not like this before.
I	When did they start focusing on maintenance?
R	When I started visiting here.
I	For three to four years?
R	Yes, maybe or more than.
I	Uh-huh.
R	How was it before, I didn’t know too much. But they used to celebrate Dussehra in Burlton Park and we came with kids to watch this.
I	Well.
I2	Do you have any memories of Burlton Park?
R	It is the best memory about the Burlton Park, that many Gurus used to guide their followers in this park.
I2	Well.
R	He did come once.
I	Where he used to sit, do they make any stage or in the open air?
R	He used to sit in the open space. In the open air. It has a large area.
I2	Did they celebrate Satsang?
R	Yes, for Guru Mata. We used to say Guru Mata.
I	Okay.
R	So, she gives lectures occasionally. I could remember once.
I	Okay.
R	Then, someone asks, let's watch. But I did not like it.
I	Well.
R	Otherwise, many kids used to play in this park. They made new toys for kids two years ago.
I	This means, these are the recent changes. How was it before that?
R	We collect money from pensions and also collect from people for the development of this park. Now we have collected some funds to make a water tank and to make many other things for exercise.
I	Well.
R	We made this track recently. It was not good before. We made it a year ago.
I	Well.
R	We contributed by ourselves and made this track for people.
I	Okay.
R	Because people fear unpaved roads. We have many plans.
I	What are the plans?
R	We have many difficulties in rainy times, like yesterday it was raining so we did half.
I	So, if you make a shed, then it will cover all trees?
R	No, we will make it as high as possible.
I	Just for yoga?
R	Yes, just for yoga. We will make a floor and will make some benches for sitting.
I	Okay.
R	And we will have new equipment for exercises.
I	Oh, well, well.
I2	Respected Radha, have you heard about the sports hub?
R	Yes, they are making the sports hub.
I2	What do you think about that?
R	Yes, it is great. It is great for Kids. It is also good for older people but it is very good for kids. There is business and many shops, and everything. They are making it in the light of their vision.
I2	But, some people are saying it will affect greenery, what do you think about that?
R	It will affect naturally. It will affect the health of the people. But it is better as compared to a sports hub. They used to say, “Kashmir is paradise”, like this, “Burlton Park is a paradise Jalandhar.”
I2	Burlton Park?
R	Yes.
I2	Do you like this place as Kashmir?
R	Yes. As they used to say, “Kashmir is paradise.”
I2	I am feeling like I am in Kashmir.
R	We feel the atmosphere as we are in Kashmir. It is the paradise of our area.
I2	Well.
R	Paradise is here. There is no greenery in the city. There is some greenery in Adarsh Nagar but it is not very good.
I2	It is not good.
R	Yes, as compared to this. It is near to us.
I2	Do you have any parks in your town?
R	No.
I	So, you have to come here. How far is your house?
R2	It is not far.
I	So how do you come here?
R	By walking.
I	Or by auto?
R	No, no.
I	You used to come here on foot.
R	Yes.
I	You walk 3 km daily to come here.
R	Yes.
I	Do you visit daily?
R	Yes, we come here daily. We did not take leave. We try our best to come daily. Because it makes us healthy. And it took an hour and half. Then he has to go to work and I have to work in houses.
I	Well.
R	When we visited here, that day we didn’t get bored. We realized at night that we have to sleep and, in the morning, we started this routine.
I	When do you usually visit mostly, in the morning or evening?
R	No, we go only one time in the morning.
R2	Because we don’t have time. We also go to Mandir for worship. There is a man who has too much knowledge about this.
I	We talked to him, that’s why he asked us to come.
I2	Thank you, Radha.
I	Thank you.
R2	All the best for your project.
I	Thank you.



JI077
I	Can you tell us your name?
R	*** ***.
I	How long have you been working here?
R	About 60 years
I	How was the chowk and Bazaar before?
R	Earlier the chowk was big. Now it is smaller.
I	Why did they reduce the chowk?
R	In 1947 when we got independence, people had just cycles. Now everyone has 4 to 6 cars, not just small ones. People have huge cars.
I	It was mainly because of the increase in traffic then…How did you come here?
R	We got it through inheritance. This fruit business is our khandani/pushtani (ancestral/familial) profession. Earlier we used to trade from thela (cart). Later we purchased this shop.
I	Can you talk about the volume of trade going on at Jyothi chowk?
R	Around 20 Lakh rupees worth of rugs (old) clothes are sold here daily, 50 lakh rupees worth of new clothes are sold, 40 lakhs rupees worth of Mithai (sweets) are sold, 20 lakh rupees worth of groceries, 10 lakh rupees worth of ice cream, 20 lakh rupees worth of fruits.
I	So this is the main market of Jalandhar then. What is the most important thing for you in the chowk?
R	There is a lot of pollution. The three wheelers (autos) are a lot here. Cars are also a lot but the roads are the same (as before). People who did not have cycle now have 4 to 5 vehicles. 
I	How has your shop changed over the years?
R	If the trade continues like this then it is doom for India. All the kids are heading abroad. Only old people will be left. There won’t be any engineers or doctors. There is a slowdown in property prices also.
I	Why is it happening?
R	All the young blood are heading out. There is a craze for immigration. We also feel like migrating.
I	What difficulties do you face in the bazaar?
R	We do not have any difficulties. Everyone here is good. Time is good. They eat well and live well.
I	Have you heard about the Smart City that is happening in Jalandhar? What have you heard about it?
R	If it happens then the burden on people (bojh) will reduce.
I	Why do you think that the burden will reduce?
R	Every day a new law is passed in this country.
I	Do you think you will face any troubles due to the Smart City projects?
R	The problem is only of traffic. There is no other difficulty.
I	What are your expectations of Smart city? How will it be?
R	Smart city should definitely happen. People should get free insurance. Taxation should not be there.  Everyone should have same tax. One tax, one nation. It is a good thing that smart city is happening. There are no two opinions about it. We will also live well. Discipline should be there. In fact, discipline is the solution.
I	what do you think of the chowk beatification project which has been announced as part of the Smart City Mission?   
R	It is happening, it should be done soon. The administration has started work. Around 4 to 5 crores per chowk they have set apart. Ahead on Workshop chowk it has started.
I	Do you think it will have any affect?
R	No, there won’t be any change.
I	Then why are they doing it?
R	First of all we should have the sense to keep our surroundings clean. We lack this sense. When we go abroad we do this, but here we do not do it. We ourselves serve good quality juice to others here, but at our own home we neglect the quality.
I	When you came here first how was the bazaar? 
R	There was not so much pollution and population. The state should give free insurance and medical to reduce the population and move towards one child policy legally. For people with additional kid tax should be different. Like 10 lakh or 20 lakhs (Audio not clear).
I	What changes would you like to see in the bazaar? Some people told us that a parking complex is necessary here.
R	Yeah, this land (pointing to old tehsil one) is lying empty. It would be great if a parking complex is built there on it. All the parking woes of bazaar would be solved. PUDA’s (Punjab Urban Development Authority’s) land is lying empty there. It is a big space.
I	What else do you need here?
R	There are no public toilets. As a result, people go in the open dump behind the bazaar to relieve themselves. The existing ones are 200 meters away. We need them to be located at the chowk. We need at least 4 here. A lot of people visit the chowk daily.
I	what do you think about the street vendors at the chowk? Some people say there is traffic congestion because of them.
R	They have to get their spaces. They have to earn their livelihood. If they are unable to put their carts they will indulge in crime. They will have to do some work at least don’t they? A lot of highly educated people are not getting jobs, they are turning criminal.
I	How was Jalandhar 40 years ago? What has changed?
R	All things considered, Jalandhar is still good.
I	What do think is going to be Jalandhar’s future?
R	It will be good. What the government does, will be good. It will do good for all of us.
I	What is a Smart City according to you?
R	There has to be rules in a smart city. Everyone should have one kid. Everyone should pay taxes properly. Double tax should be imposed for people having 2 kids.  The insurance, medical and education of one kid should be free. Everything should be free.
I	Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.



JI078
I	We are conducting this interview to get an understanding of Jalandhar’s development. First of all, can you tell us how old this shop is?
R	It is over 45 years
I	Did your dad set it up?
R	Yes
I	When he came here first, how was this space?
R	He used to tell us that it was an empty land. There was not much rush. Everything here used to close down by 4 or 5 pm. Market used to be closed by 6 pm when this shop was set up.
I	Was this building there at that time?
R	Yes, it was there.
I	How long have you been in this shop?
R	I have been working here from the past 25-30 years now.
I	How was Jyothi Chowk that time?
R	It was almost like this only, except a little bigger. Now they have shortened it, it was quite big until here (to the shop).
I	Why did they shorten the Chowk?
R	There was a lot of rush, so they had to do it. It did face opposition as many were against the move. Even though it has been shortened, the rush has only increased.
I	We heard a lot about traffic congestion problem here.
R	There is a problem. It’s not just here, anywhere you go in Jalandhar there are problems (of congestion).
I	What do you think is the solution?
R	Maybe over bridge (flyover). Every city has many over bridges though in Jalandhar we have very few 2 or 3. If we had flyovers then it would be easy to go directly to a place. Even the situation of the roads are very bad; it is full of big potholes. Especially the road leading to the railway station is in terrible condition. If anyone comes from there, they will not think this as a smart city. He or she will get stuck in the pothole. No one is caring for the upkeep of the roads. Once upon a time Jalandhar was a good city but now it has become a third-class city.
I	Why do you think like that? Is it just the roads?
R	The city does not have any good roads at all. I can’t see any aspect about the city that is smart.
I	How was the business in earlier times at the (watch) shop? How is it now?
R	In our trade the business is down, especially after the whole mobile trade thing (e-commerce). It has affected all trades, not just us. Now it is hand to mouth existence really.
I	You did not think about changing the trade?
R	A shift to any new trade requires investment and experience. We do not have the time. Where will we get the money for investment?
I	What is the most important thing for you at Jyothi Chowk market?
R	This is the heart of the city. Everyone knows about Jyothi Chowk. People may not know any other areas in the city but they definitely know this. This is a central place of the city. You can come from anywhere in the city here. The bazaar is near, so is the railway and bus station.
I	Have you heard about the proposed improvement of Jyothi Chowk under the smart city?
R	No I have not heard, what will happen?
I	They have selected 11 chowks in the city including this one. They will beautify it and re-design it to tackle the traffic congestion.
R	How is that going to happen?
I	They will put in traffic lights.
R	It can happen. But there are many Chowks where it will be difficult to do so (decongest). Like Ambedkar chowk, Nakodar Chowk and Ravidas Chowk. Even where lights are already installed there too the system is not too great either. Either they are not working or people are not following them. You come here at Jyothi chowk and see at night, there are no lights at all. And this is the main chowk of the city. The heart of the city.  There is no sense of smart city at all here. All the Mayors who are elected in the past years are not developing the city. They just sit on their seats, doing nothing and leave.
I	What are the changes you have seen in the bazaar?
R	The rush has definitely increased. Earlier not many people used to come here in the evening at all. The Old Court was functioning from here. That had a lot of visitors. There was rush from the cinema houses nearby also. Now they are all closed. Things have changed a lot.
I	Why did the cinemas shut down?
R	People anyway watch less of it nowadays. They also have opened new ones. Otherwise in Jyothi chowk area only, there were 5 to 6 cinema halls.
I	Was this mainly a textile market?
R	Rainak bazaar was one. You get all different kinds of goods here. You also get all types of textiles there.
I	What are the difficulties faced by shopkeepers here?
R	Parking is the main problem. We do not have parking here. Otherwise, if rush is a little less, it would be good.
I	We heard there was a plan for a parking complex. What happened to that?
R	None of the plans succeeded. They make plans but they end up staying in paper only. We don’t see any development. You see this Jyothi Chowk how big is this and Modi sahib is saying there should be toilets everywhere, but there is no such arrangement at all here. We face lot of difficulties because of that. They even have a mission, Swatch Bharat Abhiyan but no one has cared to do anything here. Even lot of customers also come, they too need toilet facilities.
I	What do you think of the Sunday bazaar which gets to crowded due to lot of vendors? Should it happen or not?
R	Everything should be in control then it is good. Anything should be tackled in the beginning itself. Now that many people make their livelihood off the bazaar, how can we tell them to leave? Many people started trading under the flyovers when they were made. Now you tell them to leave, where will they go? How will the get their livelihood? They should not have allowed them to trade from the beginning. Public are facing congestion and difficultly, that I understand. But for many people weekly market is their livelihood. Their business (vendors) happens mostly during Sundays only. They need a proper place to trade. One hand the government says we will not allow Sunday bazaar and at the same time they are taking money and allowing the bazaar. What do you say to that hypocrisy? Is this right? They guy who puts the cart is already paying the shopkeeper and labour help he is employing.  And now he has to pay the government too? Government should either stop the bazaar and give him a proper place to trade or not take fine.
I	How should a Smart City be according to you?
R	Smart City will only remain as a wish/dream here. I cannot say any trace of it coming. Smart city is Chandigarh. Our wish is that our city becomes like Chandigarh. I don’t think there is any city here like Chandigarh.
I	Can we make the old city with Mohallas Smart?
R	How can we make them smart? You only tell me. Mohallas will become smart only if there is cleanliness there, roads are good. There should not be any potholes. If it rains for half hour it starts to flood here. Wherever you go in the city this thing happens.  There won’t be any area where it does not flood here. Even in government colonies like Adarsh Nagar and Model Town this happens.
I	Do you use a smartphone? What do you use it for? For business?
R	I use it only for personal service and not for business.
I2	Is this online ticket service still on? (On the board was Rail/air bookings)
R	It is closed now.
I2	Any website?
R	No
I	Any apps?
R	No
I	Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We got a good overview of how the market evolved.


JI079
I	Can you first tell us your name?
R	*** ***. 
I	Since when are you trading here at this place?
R	Since 1970. Before that our shop was inside the bazaar. Earlier they used to call it Jyothi Chowk. Later they changed the name and now they call it Bhagwan Valmiki Chowk.
I	When did this happen?
R	Around 20 years or more, I guess. There was Jyothi cinemas here. That ended and it has now become a mall. There were so many old stores, hotels and dhabas here but as business boomed at this place, the owners sold off and left, because they got good value for their property. Earlier the Chowk was big and now it is smaller. Because population increased, they shortened it.
I	So more vehicles could pass…
R	Yes. 
I	Are the shops here all private properties?
R	Yeah, it’s all private.
I	No municipal owned shops?
R	Not here. The city used to start from here. Everything was considered as outskirt area from here. Lal cinema was nearby and behind it everything was agricultural fields. Now there are colonies there. Agriculture has stopped. The old mohallas have remained same though. Some have demolished them and built good houses.  This is Nakodhar road here. It is also as it is. Earlier there was no business here, only houses. When business started increasing, people converted part of their houses into shops. This gave rise to many bazaars.
I	So many of these shops were earlier houses?
R	Not here (Rainik Bazaar) this was a bazaar, before 1960’s also.
I	Before the partition also it was a bazaar?
R	We do not know about that. I was born in 1953. We went to school nearby, studied here only. We were four brothers. The business inside the bazaar declined so we came to the edge of the bazaar. We took shop on rent here in 1970. Business improved here. In 1990 we purchased the building itself. We were two brothers and in 1996 we split the existing business into two shops. Brother took the original shop towards the bazaar. In this space we had a small chai shop where you used to get chai for Rs 1 or 2. I emptied this space and started my business.
I	What are the changes you have seen in Jyothi Chowk in these past 40 years?
R	Population has increased of humans and thus of cars, business has increased a lot. Money started flowing in and people started building new houses demolishing the old ones. Otherwise, it is as it is.
I	Was these shops, like in Sudama market there?
R	No, there was nothing earlier. It was a wasteland. This is encroachment by these people. It is municipal land. There was supposed to be parking complex here earlier. But in connivance with the officers, they made this into bazaar. 
I	When was the parking supposed to be done?
R	Parking was to start since 1980. But people have encroached.  The corporation comes once in a while to remove the encroachment but it does not take any drastic step.
I	Why are they not taking back their land?
R	Don’t know who will act on it; whether the Punjab government or the corporation. There is also the Civil Hospital; it used to be outside the city now it is bang in the centre. Behind it is full of colonies. No one used to walk ahead from this Chowk as it was all jungle. Only Model town was there that side. It was made in 1950. In 1960, I had gone there for the first time with my father to attend a wedding. That too on a cycle. It was a wasteland. It almost felt like we were going from one city to another city. 
I	When did the problem of traffic congestion start at the Chowk?
R	After 1990’s it started. Before that there was no problem.
I	What is the reason for the increase in the congestion here?
R	Population increased. People got cars, cycles and scooters. When population increases naturally the rush also increases. The fields nearby became colonies and lakhs of people stay here.
I	What do you think is the solution for all this congestion then?
R	Traffic is there but it is not yet so problematic still. Vehicles are able to pass through. They don’t have to wait too much. Even if there is a traffic jam it clears up by 2 to 4 minutes.
I	The smart city is doing some project on improving the Chowk here…
R	They are doing it, but no officials have come here as such. This is all in the news. Though here nothing is happening still.
I	Have you heard something is going to happen?
R	We have heard it. But if something starts, we will all know it.
I	What are the main problems faced by you guys in the Bazaar?
R	There is not much problem. Rush has increased because of increased population. It is not too much of a problem. Anyway, vehicles are not allowed into the bazaar. People use cycle, scooter and autos to go into the bazaar.
I	What facilities do you think need to be provided here?
R	First thing needed is parking. If that is provided then the rush will come down. The police here do not do anything to stop congestion. They just stand and watch. In the evening the police are busy taking bribes from the street cart vendors.
I	So you have a problem of cart vendors?
R	Yeah a little bit.
I	Can they be given a proper place to trade else-where?
R	This issue, the corporation has to think about. When the smart city project comes then only they will think about them. They should have thought about this problem much earlier. If they had gone ahead with the parking project then this encroachment would not have happened.
I	What are your thoughts on the Sunday market here?
R	On Sunday the Industry in Jalandhar is shut. So most people come on Sundays to buy stuff in the bazaar. That’s why the bazaar started to grow more.
I	So it is a good thing according to you?
R	The bazaar should be there but government should still give some proper place to them. There is a lot of rise in crime especially theft and harassment of women due to the coming of the bazaar.
I	So what should be done of the Sunday market?
R	Where there is empty plot of government, they should run it there. Then only the shoppers will go there reducing the congestion. This is the heart of the city. (Due to the congestion) the ordinary people are inconvenienced. It is difficult to get out. If it is elsewhere then it is good. There is enough land in the city outskirts.
I	What according to you makes a city Smart? What is a smart city?
R	Everything should be there in a smart city. Good roads, washrooms, parking place, service lines, greenery.
I	Do you use smart phones for your business?
I2	Do you have a website?
R	We are old fashioned. Our kids use them. New generation uses them. I use my phone for just calling and sending messages. I have not tried to learn (how to use a smartphone) nor do I require to learn to use it.
I	Do you have website? Do you have online selling of goods?
R	No. Only counter sale.
I	Did you ever think of going online?
R	The kids think about it. But I am not interested; we get our livelihood from this. I am happy with my business. We are honest in our trade practices.
I	You have a lot of old customers?
R	We have a lot of old customers. Our family has been in this (grocery) line from 1860’s. We are the seventh generation. My son is eighth generation. We have just shifted from inside to this place.
I	Do you think that old mohallas can become smart?
R	Why not? Everything can become smart. If we change the façade of the old pre 1940 houses, improve the roads, bring in improvement in sewerage, there will be a revival. There has not been much of (improvement) work in these mohallas. 
I	Corporation people do not work there?
R	They do not. There are facilities for tube well. But they are all very old pre-1990’s or 1960’s. They are still running. No new infrastructure has come.
I	Do you guys have a union?
R	Yes we do. They just look after when shops close, the chowkidar (watchman) facility. If someone has a problem then there is meeting to find a solution. The bazaar is so open. We do not have much (security) problems.
I	What if there are difficulties? Apart from parking?
R	It is parking only. Customers will come only if there is free flowing traffic. Traffic should not stop.
I	How do you manage the inventory? How do you know that this much of stocks are required?
R	We are not very educated. I have learnt everything observing my grandfather and my father. We do not keep much stock anyways. Everything sells here fast. Stock comes in once a week or 10 days.  We do not have a godown.
I	Do you enter these (grocery) items in the computer?
R	It is all kept in the mind. We do calculations in the mind only! We do not use any calculators, only our kids do. I am still doing the old style.
I	Thank you. 


JI085
I	Your name will not appear anywhere. The recording is to help me remember the details. Even in our reports your name will not be used. We will write what people in general from the market want. Can we record then?
R	Yes
I	Can you tell us your age?
R	It is two years less than 60.
I	Name?
R	When I started sitting here (to trade) I was still a young unmarried woman. From that time, I am still here.
I	So you were born in Jalandhar then?
R	Yes.
I	Who set up the market and gave you place to trade?
R	The pradhan (leader) here who we helped to win (the election) settled us down here.
I	What is his name?
R	He was (***) *** Dad. I don’t know the exact name. He settled us down here.
I	So your biradari (caste/kinship group) helped him win and he helped you guys with this.
R	Yes. We said to him that we need a space (of our own) to feed our children. We used to be scattered, someone used to trade from this road, someone other one. So he settled us here.
I	So you know him from the founding of the market then. How was this space in the beginning?
R	That time there was nothing. We used to sit on the ground. Slowly we started improving and now we are sitting like this (on a platform in a shack like structure). Otherwise, we were on the ground. There was not much customers. Two, three years we did not earn almost anything. Now things have improved. We have enough for food. Inside you can see Punjabis have occupied rest of the space and are selling new maal (clothes). 
I	Was their shops there that time?
R	It was not there. They slowly occupied the spaces on their own.
I	It was totally empty then?
R	Yes he (*** ***) had only given us Gujaratis the land and for no one else. When we came, we were allotted just one shop per person. The new ones (Punjabis) have taken almost 10 shops per person. They have influence. How can we fight them? We are sitting here scared. And it is also not that we have any money to invest (unlike them). This tin cover is old one, even it cost me 5 to 10 grand rupees. Earlier we used to put clothes tent here. I have been here from 35 years at least. I was 18 then. Even my kids have become granddads, that old I am! When I started there were just around 20 shops here. Now it is so full, I don’t even know from where all of them have come. No one cares about us old timers.
I	When you first sat here then how many people were here?
R	It was just 20 people. All of this area was empty. Our pradhan (leader) told us to just stay put in this space only. There was a jail nearby and there were quarters of officials here. They slowly dismantled it and expanded the area.
I	So you remember seeing the Jail?
R	I remember seeing the quarters. There was not much population that time here. I don’t know from where all these people came. We don’t have many shops among ourselves at all. One shop here is shared by four families who trade at different times/days. This is my daughter-in-law; she is trading from some-one else’s shop. My own daughters are paying rent in these shops to trade. When it is empty, we rent out our own shop for 20 or 30 Rupees.
I	How long has it been since you guys started doing pheri (barter exchange-based trade)?
R	It’s been a long while. Our parents used to do this too. But the new members do not do it. They get nave maal (new clothes) from outside and sell it here.  The richer ones are selling (well) and we are just able to earn enough for our livelihood. 
I	Can you explain to us a bit how the pheri trade takes place?
R	We take cooking vessels and roam in the alleys (to exchange for old clothes). We take 500-to-1000-rupee worth usually. Till now we have not really earned much money from this trade. The newcomers (Punjabis) have managed to earn well. We are doing honest trade and they are doing it by other means.
I	When did you build this platform?
R	It took me 5 to 10 years. It’s all like this only. Who don’t have money have not been able to improve the shops and are like this only. We have gathered our resources painstakingly and built this.
I	Do you think your shop will get regularised?
R	We don’t know. It has been 40 years. It should get regularised by now. 
I	Do you have to give municipality, the teh bazaar (Bazaar wing), like 10 rupees every day to trade?
R	No we do not give that. When bade sir (*** ***) has settled us down here, no one can tell us to leave.
I	Was there any talk of making identity cards and settling you down elsewhere?
R	I have not heard such thing. Earlier they did say we will evict you guys and give a different space. We said we will not shift. We have a good familial atmosphere here and our daughters can sit safely and trade. How can we shift to some unknown strange place? Here even if a 10-year-old girl comes no one will misbehave with her as this is like our home environment. Everyone looks after each other like a kin. They promised a lot but we decided not to vacate.
I	Did they tell you which place was on offer? Did they consult with you?
R	They said they will give us any place we want. We still said no. We will sit here only as all our lives we have done. Anyway only a few years are left for me on this earth. Lot of people came to evict us. But none of them had the guts to do it. Builder had come. Someone had even purchased this land.
I	Who?
R	We don’t know that. We took out a Juloos (protest march) and lied down in front of Company Bagh (the Municipal Corporation office).  How will we survive if they evicted us? We did not have any other means of livelihood.
I	When was this?
R	15 or 20 years ago.  After than no one could dare to evict us. We had got everyone from our homes at the protest. We went to Bade sir’s house (*** ***) also.
I	Do they still trouble you sometimes now?
R	They don’t do it now. They let us be. We do not know what is going to happen. We wish they give us proper shops with shutter and legal titles for them. Our children also can spend their lives here.
I	If the municipality constructs the complex and offers you shops on rent how would you feel? Will that be expensive for you?
R	The person with the influence will take the shop. We won’t be able to take them. They should only allocate the shops to the old timers. The transition should be done slowly one by one. A lot of people have occupied the market recently. 
I	Do you have a list with you on who are the old ones? Who came here first? How will you able to distinguish between old and new occupants?
R	Our Gujarati people came here first. They are 10 to 15 families. That we can easily tell. The new ones are all over the market. They are taking advantage. We cannot speak against them as we are afraid. (Whispering) They can come to our homes and hit us. We have many women in our homes. I have one boy and he is also helpless, disabled from the waist. His wife earns for him. I can’t even employ my girls here as they are young.
I	It is a lot of hard work…
R	Yes it is. We have to wander in streets. The clothes we get, we have to clean, iron and stitch properly. If we get 500 from a sale, we would have spent 200 already on it. There is really not much earnings in this trade.
I	The clothes you have hung here, how much time does it take to clean and stitch them?
R	Almost a week, a lot of time.
I	In a week how many days do you go on pheri and how many days you get to stay here?
R	In a week, usually, 2 days of pheri, 2 days to prepare the clothes and 2 days we put up the stall.
I	Where do you get the most clothes usually?
R	That is a matter of luck. Sometimes we return empty handed. Even though, we may have spent 50 to 100 rupees on transport.
I	Have you guys divided the areas each one visits?
R	Yes we have. I have regular old clients. They are our main means of earning.
I	So you can’t go beyond them?
R	We can, but it is of not much use. We already have old ties and the old clients recognise us and give us clothes. First we used get clothes from villages, now we don’t as village clothes do not sell here. Even silk suits from there no one buys. Not even for 5 Rs. Here people come to buy fancy clothes. You must have seen inside the bazaar.
I	Did you ever think of getting clothes from elsewhere?
R	We don’t have that much courage to do that.
I	Like clothes coming from Delhi…
R	It comes from a lot of places, Delhi, Panipat. People who have capital are getting them and selling them. We don’t have money. We are doing our trade in only this. What we have here is atleast better than begging from others.
I	Does your daughter also sit here?
R	I have daughters yes, three I have gotten off married and one is left. I am sitting here also to save for that expense. They also do the same job. All our Gujaratis we do this only.
I	Have you heard about the plan to make Smart City in Jalandhar?
R	I have not heard. Those (Punjabis) traders who sit inside may know as they often go around everywhere and meet big people. I have not even talked to them; you are the only one I have talked. I am always in the background. I do not know how to speak (politically like those big men).
I	But you went to Juloos?
R	That I had to do. It was a matter of my shop and livelihood. We sat in hot sunlight for days. That’s why they allowed us to stay here. Nowadays, who pays money they get to have their way.  Honesty is not rewarded.  So you will take all the suggestions and go?
I	Yeah, we will take it to Delhi. 
R	Yeah please take up our case.
R	Do write that our daughters are sitting here and we need facilities. We don’t get water or chai (tea), there are no services. We are just grateful that they are allowing us to sit here. In other places the guys harass a lot of women but here no one will dare to do so. Through this trade only I was able to bring up all my children well. My mind does not agree to shift to a strange place. Even if a troublemaker comes here from outside, we can handle it as all of us gather and help. Everyone is good here. Frankly I feel much better here at market than at home.
I	Where do you stay? Is it all Gujarati?
R	Baba Khel basti. Yes, there is a Gujarati Mohalla there. The shopkeepers there have evicted all the vendors there and thrown out the carts, especially those who sit by the canal.
I	Where did they sit earlier?
R	Wherever they got space they used to sit. At Chowk or anywhere. The government is now removing them. We are a bit inside from the main road; that is why they are not evicting us.
I	Do you still have any connections with Gujarat? Do you visit it often?
R	If we don’t go there, we will die. After all it is our homeland. During Navaratri and Charitra month we go home. We can never forget our home. We are here just to earn the livelihood.
I	Who stays there from your family?
R	It is mostly the older relatives, who have stayed back there only. We have to go to take care of them. I also give our earnings to my mother.
I	Which village are you from?
R	A bit ahead of Ahmedabad, in Kathiawad area. Near town Mehsana. We go every Navaratri, except when we don’t earn enough for that year. All our main shrines are there. The ones here are dikhawa (less important). We go there to ask for wishes. We believe in goddess a lot. We do not eat at Valmiki or other halki (lightweight) castes households.
I	What caste are you?
R	We are Thakurs. We don’t eat at their places. We don’t even pick up clothes of their castes.
I	So all the suppliers of your goods are from your own Biradari (caste group)?
R	Not from our Biradari, we get our goods from big kothis (Bungalows), Like bungalows of Sardar. If chamars (Backward caste group traditionally dealing in leather work) call us we do not go.  If we start picking up goods from everywhere, there is untouchability there in Gujarat, the villages will not allow us inside to trade.
I	Do you have a house in the village there? Where do you put up?
R	Yes, our ancestral houses are still there. It is made up of mud. That is our land. Even if people offer Crores of rupees, we can never put it up for sale. It is our identity. 
I	Do you guys practice agriculture there still?
R	We don’t do it. Nowadays no one does it. Though, everyone has land. 
I	Can’t you guys give the land on rent?
R	We give among our relatives only. We ask them to come and take care of the land.
I	Do you have anyone taking care of your land?
R	Yeah that’s why we go there frequently. To meet them. If we let the land just be like that, someone may encroach it. That’s why we visit. We are also able to do darshan of our goddess.
I	So here everyone is from Gujarat but from different Biradari?
R	Yeah, everybody is from different kin groups. Some people even eat from the Chamar households. We do not. One can say that everyone here is Gujarati, but it is not so simple. We were born there; we were here at market from the beginning.
I	Were you born in Gujarat?
R	No, in Punjab only. We just take our kids there to show our relatives and our homeland. Remind them not to forget their homeland. We won’t forget our culture ever.
I	Do you use phone to conduct your business? Does it help? Or is it not required at all?
R	It is not essential.


NI015
R	I have been opposing the development of the smart city on behalf of my organization as well as on a personal level. The reason behind that is to first decide the priorities for our developing country, our developing nation. The current situation of our country is such that under the socio-economic position we should first give employment to the people.
I	Yes, it’s true.
R	The work of smart city is going on in Nashik as well as in other parts of our country. There has been no place where the rehabilitation of these poor and small people was mentioned, nor do they give them any place in the proposed plans. This would be the example from Nashik that the ongoing work of the tar-road construction from Ashok Stambh to Tryambk Naka, was supposed to be completed by March ending. But, today in May and June, the work has no signs to be considered as close to completion. I can say that it would again take them a year to complete only this work. Who will pay the cost of the delay in the work? Has the Corporation paid attention to it? Is it collected from the contractors or not? This question should be asked first. To me, all these things are done collectively; there has been no penalty on the contractors till now!
R	I agree that a smart city will have a Wi-Fi system, mobile systems, email services, other services, drainage systems, it should have a permanent system that should not face any problem anytime later. I agree that this is needed, but not now. This means we are a developing country and not a developed country. There are three types: underdeveloped, developing, and developed. So, we are in the developing zone and not developed. In the smart city, we are spending as per developed countries; while there is a situation in the country that people are starving, and we are spending the money here instead of prioritizing it to provide employment for people. If they say that this share of the fund will be from the corporation, this much will be from the state government and a certain share of the central government, but still, it won’t separate the city-state-country and I would say that it is the money of common people.
R	If I need to talk about street vendors, during the governance of Manmohan Singh (Congress party), the street vendors policy was developed in 2009. But, by the amendment, the 2009’s street vendors policy was accepted to be introduced in the state on 9th august 2014. There may be some mistake in the dates, please pardon me for that.
R	But still, if we consider it as 2014’s policy, but now, it's 2019; and there, it is mentioned that there should be 2.5% of the population as street vendors. In 2014, the Municipal Corporation formed a street vendors committee but the committee was never consulted. During the implementation of the street vendors policy which was formed without doing the full and proper survey of the city and by totally neglecting the suggestions given by street vendor’s association/unions; the street vendors policy is implemented one-handedly. In 2014, there were some areas in Nashik which have been mentioned as Hawker zones and some as non-hawker zones. For example, if you go to see behind the hotel Greenwich, you will notice the area mentioned as the hawker zone in 2014, today no one can do business there. There is garbage everywhere. There are no basic arrangements done.
R	During the implementation of the street vendors policy, these areas needed to be surveyed but it was not done. There should have been biometric authentication of it but this contract was outsourced and the reports by those outsourcing are corrupted. They had considered and favoured the Nagar sevaks, mafias for the survey and done it very wrongly. Our Nashik district hawker’s union, which is aligned with the Hind Majdur Sena, which was founded by J. R. Fadnavis, has time to question this. There have been various cases against us; we have opposed them by various marches and movements, we have given a detailed view of this situation. But the municipal corporation never paid their attention to it. Our ex-commissioner ‘Tukaram Munde’, before him ‘Gedam’ was the commissioner, before him ‘Sanjay’, each one was proposed with this but still there is no improvement. We had studied the things in detail and then from the hawkers and no-hawkers zone suggested by them, we had accepted 80% of the no-hawkers zone. And we had rejected the 20% hawker’s zone. But we had also suggested to them the alternate places for that 20%. Not even 1 percent of it was accepted by the municipal corporation.
R	In the fundamental street vendors policy, it is nowhere mentioned that hawker’s zone should be there in the remote areas only; but there should also be arrangements for them in the market and on the footpath. You may be fooled into thinking that there should not be any vendors on the footpath, there should not be any food-cooking vendors on the footpath. But there, it is mentioned that there should be permission for the readymade food vendors on the footpath, but none of this has been considered.
R	We are demanding that the by-lanes on the main road be declared as no-vehicle zone and they should be given permission as hawkers zones. For example, in the area of ‘Ravivar-Karanja’, there is a large number of hawkers during festival seasons. We are emphasizing that if that is a chowk (square), after doing the barricading, they should be allowed; and we have proposed the plans/blueprints for it, to show that this is possible. The municipal corporation may say that it is not possible, but then, why have they introduced the smart city thing? After that, they have then forcibly removed the vendors from the region which was under the smart city project.
R	In doing so, they had not even taken into consideration the judgment of the Supreme Court. The Supreme court has given the judgment regarding the street vendors policy that before removing the street vendors from that street, there should be rehabilitation arrangements for them. There should be a pre-announcement for the hawker's zone. Nothing from this was implemented. No encroachment removal action should be taken without giving them notice in the Supreme court’s verdict. Even if this is not done, their perishable goods that have been confiscated should be returned within 24 hours be returned within 24 hours.
R	While returning it, the fine taken from them should not be greater than the value of the returning goods. This is a very simple verdict given by the supreme court that can be understood by anyone, non-perishable goods such as stools, weights, utensils, should be returned within 2 days, and here also the fine taken from them should not be greater than the value of the returning goods. But every commissioner and his system finds out a shameful way from it and never implements it.
R	I request the NGOs, the members of opposition parties, the members of social welfare organizations, the people representing the forward thoughts, and the state ministers, I request you all that after the street vendors policy is being implemented, if there is any action done, the commissioner will conveniently say that street vendor policy is approved and not fully implemented; and so, we have done this action under the commissioners’ guidelines of the road obstruction. This leads to the fine as big as 10,000 rupees while they should be fined max-to-max 200 rupees. But they do their business while surviving all this injustice & pain, and you may have seen how frightened they are when they see any encroachment removal van. This was all on our side.
R	Now, citizens should also be given the facilities, for example, the selling of rubber bush for table and metal cots, and many such items are mostly done by vendors. People will also suffer and won’t go if vendors are asked to sell their goods in the ‘Sharanpur’ market.
R	If vegetable vendors are given space along the riverside, which is not suitable, that will also negatively affect them. No one pays attention to this.
R	Our organization supports the poor, weak, rural people, vegetable vendors, illiterate people, the unemployed people who have suffered due to the caste system, who came here to make a new living, people who came here for food, and all such needy people. The bigger complexes in Mumbai and Pune have illegal things going on. Four-wheeler washing activities are being done by Nepali people, engaging in extortion, all live here. All these illegal activities keep on going in Mumbai, Pune, Thane, Navi Mumbai.
R	There are Nagar Sevaks in Pune, Mumbai, Thane who decide the people who can work and cannot work in their area. They consistently take the illegal commission from them and keep them bound. You seem to be young; I don’t know where you have been but I think you should pay attention to it and observe this. You don’t trust my words but observe this yourself.
R	Our organization is a strong and sincere organization that never fears any opposition. But the Nagar Sevaks whether they are from BJP or Shivsena or Congress, think that democracy, secularism, sociality are just constitutional things and they don’t believe in it. They only believe in money-power and muscle-power. 
R	The old stallholder or vendors started this business with the support from Nagar sevaks that they take charges varying from 100 to 3000 rupees per day from the outsiders who are needy and they need to do business, and only after taking charges they allow them to do their vendor business. And the outsiders are so needy that even if they need to pay 200 rupees daily, they have to do the business. So, when we do any march or agitation or opposing action, that time we don’t get support from these outside vendors as they keep changing places and the local vendors don’t support because they are getting benefited from these illegal acts. This is everywhere. It is in Mumbai, Pune, Thane, Delhi ... it is everywhere.
R	But we are not loosening on it and we will always be firm on the street vendors policy. A smart city should consider this and I agree that they can reduce the number of vendors from some areas but they should keep some and also, they should arrange the rehabilitation for those who are being removed.
I	At the time when the ‘Smart city concept' was introduced in the city, the Municipal Corporation are said to have asked the people and have considered their opinions. Have they asked you or listened to you?
R	That time’s situation was that they were in a hurry for the implementation of the smart city project. That was why they arranged a time-bound program. They did film shows, slideshows, seminars, presentations, 3-3 hours of lectures, and other showcasing things; for the presentation, I would give them 100/100 marks. But that was due to the talents of the presenters, it was on the screen and in the proposal. What about the ground project? They never thought about the real work! 
R	What were you saying?
R	I got the point. The police commissioners from that time till now - ‘Nagare Patil’, ‘Sihngal’, ‘..’; and the administrative commissioners – ‘Game’, ‘Tukaram Munde’, ‘Gedam’, ‘Sanjay Khandare’. In this new system, I see that this higher-level officer tries to comfort the middle-class and high-class people of the city.
R	They manipulate them by saying you are the taxpayers and these vendors obstruct your roads for which also you pay tax, and all that stuff is fed into their minds. Then, they start seeing him as an angel, and in this way, they start their manipulation. They first make a good image of them and then the real work starts.
R	Now, what has happened is that the Nagre Patil is strictly in opposition to the rickshaw drivers and owners and these rickshaw drivers also have their problems. They don’t have a proper stand. Even the drivers don’t own their rickshaws. Many government people, state government people, corporation officers, all have bought rickshaws, the permit is on their names and he is driving it. This is just their exploitation only, but no one has time to pay attention to it.
R	Instead, they see that he is carrying extra passengers, the rickshaw is standing at some other place, and stuff like that. This is how they are being exploited. Every new commissioner first tries to establish fame and for that, the first thing they say is about what? – ‘encroachment removal’. On one hand, they say that we will remove the vendors and on the other hand they say that there will be a 24-hour water supply.
R	But we say that a one-time water supply a day is sufficient for us. So, what they did is right. Their workshops were good but the outcome of the workshops are disgusting. In that, have you reduced the slum size? Are service charges reduced?
R	Come with me now and I can show you the human waste in the slum areas, and try to sit around for 5 minutes. No! You won’t be able to sit. There is no cleanliness everywhere. There are septic toilets but unfortunately, their tanks are full. Then what cleanliness can you say? This means, there is the only place to stand, what about other things? And this is the reality of every slum.
R	There is a lot of fraud in this politics. They won’t say the reason for what they did, they made a toilet at a place in the city but never told why. They have kept the motive aside and just made the structure. This being a very sensitive topic, I try to be silent on it.
I	Before starting the construction work of the roads under the Smart City, have they sent any notice to hawkers/vendors that we will be working here and it may cause some trouble to you?
R	There were spoken notices but there was no rehabilitation. 
I	No rehabilitation.
R	Nothing. If there was any, they were given space in the ‘Gargure Ghat’. You go there and see, which buyer will go to that place?!
I	No one will go.
R	This means if the service person needs some snacks, will he go to ‘Gargure Ghat’? No, He won’t!
I	Yes, that can never become a hawker zone.
R	This kind of situation is everywhere.
I	Ok. Thank you.


NI017
I	How many years have you been working in this area?
R	For around 30 years I have been working in this area.
I	Let us go through your background introduction and how you are involved in these things?
R	It all started when my dad owned this shop. But he passed early and I started focusing on the business.  This might be the reason I took forward the business instead of landing a job.
I2	So, you have been in Nashik since your childhood, isn’t it?
R	Yes, I was born and brought up in Nashik. From my KG to PG, all the way I had been in Nashik.
I2	How do you get this business idea? How are you involved and what is the history behind this business?
R	It was not a plan to start a hotel, so we initiated a cold drink and ice cream shop. In between, we got some free time and started thinking about new things and we landed on this hotel idea. But we faced an encroachment problem there - our small kitchen had fallen under the encroachment area in 1999-2000.
I	What was the encroachment problem you faced?
R	We call it Atikraman i.e., Road expansion - we lost our kitchen there. We rebuilt a new kitchen inside and shaped our complete hotel. Because of not enough space, we had to shut down that cold drink and ice cream and focus on only food items. We got some amazing responses from customers. Now there is no cold drink and ice cream but we have our cold drink products like lassi. It has been 30 years now since 1989.
I	What changes and challenges have you observed from the past 30 years and how did you tackle them?
R	Talking about challenges, every day is like a surprise. Like the encroachment problem in 1999; we constantly had the fear of losing our hotel. Often government authorities came and took measurements around our hotel and left us in suspense - for 3 years. But by God’s grace, business never stopped and I have now completed the education of my son, marriage of my elder daughter, all through this business.
R	Recently he completed his MS from MIT in Industrial engineering and landed a job there. Also, we always had the sword on our head but we kept doing it. It is still there but now the education of my son is over so we can face this encroachment issue more bravely. Encroachment problem affected some of our neighbours terribly - they lost nearly half of their shop.
I2	Did they get any compensation?
R	No, the people who encroach on government property don't get any compensation, additionally, they got fined in property tax. The government has given some compensation in the form of FSI to the people who lost their land. In our case, the land is authorized but not permitted for construction where we build our shed-small kitchen. In that area around the 300 square feet area, we used to have a sitting arrangement and cold drink.
I	What do you think about the success of your business and what is the secret of success?
R	Providing quality food is the success of my business. I believe cleanliness and quality of food are the things that brought me forward. People often visit our hotel because of its cleanliness and appreciate the food.  It is our responsibility to maintain the cleanliness and quality of food and we can manage, it is so easily -nothing different. It is the same as our home kitchen. We brought the same grocery and the same method used; everything is homemade. Since our raw materials are good, our product items are also good.
I2	Where did you get all your raw material from?
R	It is all from Nashik Merchants only, nothing from outside of Nashik. I don't have storage capacity. I can only stock for 15 to 30 days. Raw materials like rice, onion, and cabbage are volatile in rate but I can't stock them because of this space problem. No worries, I got enough.
I2	Here you have mentioned that it is a Mahila Gruh Udyog.
R	Yes, our business is registered as Mahila Gruh Udyog in my wife's name. It was started by Mahila initiatives. I think that most of the people are attracted here because the food is cooked by women, that is the Mahila initiative. Initially, my wife and I also used to work there but now we have workers. I used to prepare all the items for kitchens, things related to the management and my wife used to cook.
I	How are you managing all these things, like are you making any notebooks or spreadsheets?
R	Initially, I used to have a notebook, after sometimes, it is all getting computed in my mind. Nowadays, I do all the things in my mind and get everything calculated. Since it is single handling, I use books only for bills, else I keep it in my mind.
I	Don’t you use any app?
R	No. There is no place to keep it. Many sellers have come to sell their apps, use this and that. But we don’t have space to keep it. There is very little space, still, I am thinking of doing it later by reducing one table. I will put the CPU here. I will be done next year.
I	What are you thinking to do with it?
R	It will be all about food only.
I	Can you explain that?
R	Only food is what we have here.
I	So, on the computer, you will do the planning.
R	Yes, on the computer, there is a program which does planning. We only need to feed the input of how much raw materials you brought and how many plates are old today, so with it will calculate the other things. And for finance, I keep writing things side-by-side. 
I	Interesting. Why did you think that you need to have a computer and do this?
R	Now everyone is doing that.  It's like a revolution. Earlier everything used to be on paper. Now everything is getting digitized. I think after 50 years, there will be a robot in every house which will be essential to do all those small household works. So, we should also take a step ahead. I don’t know much about it but I will need to learn it.
I	How will you learn it?
R	The way horses are trained, I will also need to get trained. Just keep your eyes on what is our aim and keep learning those things only. Don’t expand into other things.
I	Is there any program sold to you or is it free?
R	There used to come many merchants to sell their programs. They sell their programs. I have seen them. They are good. Give the input of raw materials and it will generate the finance. It will also include the charity which I have done as a free-of-cost thing. I used to do charity. In these 30 years, at least two people are eating for free every day - one in the morning and the other at night. It can go to 4-5 a day but not as big as 10. I also give these workers some grains and cereals as charity only. There is not much profit there. Also, there is one RSS group that feeds the people who are outsiders and don’t have anyone here in the city. I share my tiffin there as charity. I will share the tiffin’s of market value 70-80 rupees at just 30 rupees. That also has completed 15 years. It started in 2003.
I	So, RSS is working well here.
R	Yes, they do good social work.
I	Are you connected to them or just supplying food to them?
R	I just supply food. In childhood I have volunteered there many times but not now. After I went to college, I left these things.  Those RSS people do great work. They work from their section of ‘Manohar Rugn Seva’. Once, media people visited there. They asked them to show giving tiffin to a particular caste’s person and we will make a news out of it that you support this caste. But the RSS group refused to do so, and the media also was so determined that they never made any news on them.
I	Media also needs to make a story.
R	These are the good things which I did. I think they only shined our fortune. I was not financially strong so I would be able to send my son to a foreign school. But he got financial aid and scholarships and I was able to send him there. To do PG in America, you need at least 1 crore. That’s too much for me.
I	Yes, it is too costly. I also went through a scholarship only. She also is going only with the help of the scholarship.
R	He was a genuine bright student that is why I encouraged him. We have mortgaged this for it. The first instalment is yet to start.
I	Don’t you fear? This is your livelihood?
R	Yes, but we need to manage. Once he gets a job; if I have to pay 10 rupees, he will also give 5.
I	Do you think he will give?
R	Yes, he will.
I	Ok, you are confident that he will give.
R	This way we can return it.
I	How long is it mortgaged for?
R	It is for 20 years but by God's grace, we will be able to repay it earlier when he gets a good job. Everything we did is just due to this shop, now I think as long as I can work, I will do this only. If that time, I will not be able to do much work, I will sell tea only, but do it.
I	So, you talked about the changes in the shop in these 30 years. Have you observed changes in your customers? Did you customize your food?
R	No, I did not. Before I started selling food, earlier I used to sell ‘Pav-Bhaji’. From 1994-95, I started selling ‘Roti-Sabji’. No one needs any change. You will eat dosa 2-3 times but at last you will need roti-sabji only.
I	What type of customers do you see?
R	I see all types of customers. This is a centre area. I have many flowing customers. And everyone wants ‘roti-sabji’ only. The only thing I added is ‘rice plate’.
I	Okay.
R	Rice plate is like Thali. There will be dal, rice, sabji, roti, dahi, salad. That is the only development we did. And this was continuous. 
I	What is this menu about?
R	It is for breakfast, usually, 8 am-10 am. And in the evening, it's from 4 pm to 6 pm for snacks. Our 60% business is from ‘Roti-Sabji’. So, we have split the Thali, you can even have only roti-sabji or you can have dal-chawal. As per your convenience.
I	And you can have a full plate also.
R	Yes, you can have it too. And if you don’t want to have some lite food. You can have ‘aloo-paratha’, ‘bhajani-thalipeeth’- it is the Maharashtrian dish, you can have a Maharashtrian sweet dish – ‘puran poli’. People have it too.
I2	Misal-pav is also there, right?
R	Yes, misal-pav too.
I2	It is breakfast.
R	Yes, it’s a breakfast item. So, I serve breakfast too, tea-coffee. During this season, we have green mangoes, we make their beverages. We call it ‘Panh’. We serve it. It is from February to the rainy season. Later we start making ‘Kheer’. It will be ‘wheat-kheer’, ‘rice-kheer’, ‘shevaya-kheer’, and so on. It will continue till the ending of Diwali. Then after it's done, cold drinks start. And ‘Lassi’ is evergreen. It is sold throughout the year. But, only during this season, we keep a separate ‘Mango-Lassi’, which we make purely from mangoes. But we cannot get those mangoes on other seasons so we stop selling them in those days. Then we sell the simple Lassi. We don’t have many products but whatever I sell works for us.  
I	So, how do people come to know about your shop?
R	I am slightly non-commercial in that sense. I never did any advertisements.
I	I was going to ask the same thing.
R	I never did ads. I never felt the need for ads. By God's grace, our place is at the centre. We were having flowing customers. Later, what I did was increase the size of the board. Nothing else.
I2	And word of mouth.
R	Yes, mouth publicity.
I	So, now when you are thinking about going computerized, have you thought of making a website? Have you thought about it?
R	Yes, yes. I have.
I2	Oh, you have thought about it. What is that?
R	Yes, I am thinking of starting a parcel service with Uber Foods and Swiggy. I will sell them online. If I get any labour, then we will cook too. But then I will become bound. If those parcel services come, I will start giving them to them.
I2	But will your profit margin be the same? You would then need to give them a commission.
R	No, I won’t need to give them a commission. The discount they give to their customers is from their side. We get complete money for what we sell. Because I need to provide money to my son, also I need to run this business and house.it won’t be possible for me if I start giving them discounts. Maybe they give discounts because they want to make their market. If you order my 50 rupees plate on uber, you will get it at 40. But I think they will make people lazy, and once they are established, they will then start selling at the same time at 60 rupees. 
I	If people start ordering from home, don’t you think your flowing customers here may decrease?
R	Yes, it may happen. It would happen. But this place is such that flowing customers will always be there. But the number of customers may decrease from it. I used to see this on national holidays, there is no mob here. Because people won’t go out on the national holidays. That’s one thing.  
I	So, you don’t have any difficulty with it?
R	Yes, now it's like, whatever I do is good.
I	And, if you start on Swiggy/Uber, then you will also need to make a website. Maybe you will need to come on social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter. Who will manage this? Do you know how to manage them?
R	Facebook is simple.
I	Do you know how to make a Facebook page?
R	Yes, I know. I used to do it.
I2	Do you have a Facebook page?
R	Yes. But I haven’t visited it for a year.
I2	Oh, is it a shop’s Facebook page or yours?
R	Yes, I do both. But I don’t do it personally. I don’t chat with my friend. If I need, I will call him directly. I don’t chat with anyone on WhatsApp. If I need to, I will call directly. I don’t have time for it.
	[inaudible]
I	What is the name of your Facebook page?
R	It is ‘*** ***’. But, for one year, I have not used it because many things were going on and I was more involved in it. My son went, my daughter too is in the US. She went there after marriage.
I	Do you have two children?
R	Yes, the elder is the daughter and the younger one is the son. Both are in the US. Facebook takes much of my time when I need to talk with them. I have started a page on Facebook. But I was not able to handle it much.
I2	It needs time, you have to keep doing that constantly. If you don’t keep updating it, no one will come there.
R	Yes. Even now we have an option of WhatsApp Status. I used to keep some dishes as a status. It used to be for 24 hours and we can also see how many people saw that. But I don’t use it much. Local people used to see it. Like they have started ordering for ‘Panh’ as I had continuously posted it for 10-15 days that we started making it.
	[inaudible]
I	Facebook and Twitter are public, anyone can see your account.
I2	Twitter is not that popular here?
R	People are not aware of it, that’s why.
I	How did you learn all these things?
R	From children.
I	When?
R	It has been 2-3 years. It has been 3 years since I got my smartphone. Before that, I was using a simple phone.
I	Why did you take a smartphone?
R	Just to do this all?
I	Did your children convince you of that?
R	Yes, first it was brought by them; it was around 2015.
I	After getting a smartphone, how did you manage that? Did you ask them?
R	Yes, I had asked them because I was not that familiar with them all. They only taught me by saying do this and that. And that way I learned. It was needed to know that, I explored that much, and one by one it kept adding. 
I	Facebook page, WhatsApp…
R	Yes, but now from the past year, I have stopped using it otherwise, I won’t get time to speak with them. Our timings and their timings are different. We only get time before sleeping.
I	Yes, it's a 12 hours difference.
R	There are 5 different time zones in America.
I	MIT would be in the easter time zone only.
R	Yes, it is.
I	And where is your daughter there?
R	She is there, near Ohio. In the same - eastern time zone. 
I	Oh.
R	It's a 10 ½ hours difference now. 
	[inaudible]
R	There is an exact one-hour difference between the time zones. From EST- eastern time zone to PST- pacific time zone.
I	Oh, you know much about it.
R	Yes, I do.
I	How do you talk to them?
R	Over WhatsApp only, because it's free. Earlier there was some scheme from a telecom company. I don’t know about it now. Because with WhatsApp we can even do a video call.
I	So, do you have a data plan or do you have Wi-Fi at home?
R	I don’t have Wi-Fi now.
I	So, you have a data plan.
R	Yes, phone plans only.
I	So, next year when you bring a computer and make your website; Will you make it on your own or someone else would do it for you?
R	No, I don’t know how to make it. Someone else will have to do that for me.
I	It's easy, you can make it on your own.
R	Yes, it's easy but I will need to learn it from someone. I will call my friend’s son or I will have to call someone to give a paid service. Those people keep visiting here but they don't have that much time to make us learn. So, I will need to call some commercial guy to do that for me.
I	Once it's made, you only need to update it. But the basic thing should be done at least once.
R	Yes.
I	So, you said it's a revolution and you need to do it. But why do you need to do it? Is it because all shopkeepers are doing it, that's why you need to do it, or anything else?
R	No, it's like the only way. If you have to go, you will have to go this way only. There is no other way to go. So, if you want to develop, you must learn it. At least a few basic things can’t be skipped. 
I	Are others here doing it? Are you the first one to do that here?
R	No, others are already doing that. There are different types of hotel and restaurant owners around here. But I don’t get along well with them. I will say why. There was one dealer who was selling me a water filter at 7 rupees per litre but it was not mineral water. I was happy that at least he is selling a good product. But when I went with that water to my village and while coming back, I had to take some other water bottle. Then I realised that the taste of water was different. So, I called the dealer and asked him to take away his water bottles as their taste was different; but then he offered me the same water bottles at 5 rupees per litre rate. I understood that there was something wrong with it and I refused to buy from him. Later, I saw that the same guy is selling water to the neighbouring restaurant. I went to the owner of the restaurant to tell him not to buy water from the guy as there is something wrong with it. But he replied to me with a very commercial thought that - should I consider my family or customers? That was an emotionless thought which I did not like. I said then do whatever you like. Same thing - the other neighbouring gentleman, he sells cigarettes. I asked him not to give cigarettes to those who are below 18, and do whatever business you want to do; then he replied by saying will you pay the rent of my shop? So there should be some principle.
I	There should be some morality.
R	I never compromised with the quality of my food. Never cheated with it. That's why I don't get well with others. I am good with *** because he also does the same moral business; he will maintain the quality.
	[inaudible]
R	Yes. I became friends with him only because of this that he will never compromise on the quality. We both have the same thoughts.
I	So, now, come to the topic of a smart city. You are now using a smartphone. You should know about the smart city. What do you think about it?
R	It is developing facilities for customers, citizens; those facilities which can be availed outside other than home. If you want to rest and you are outside, you see some deck or seat to rest on and there is a tree for a shed or if the tree is not there, then there is an artificial shed. If you want to have your lunch, you can have them, open your tiffin, have lunch, and then go for the work.
R	There is a four-wheeler track, so where will the cyclists have their way? Same question I had. Now they have made a cycle track for them which I think is good. I like this all. People are not in favour of it because, at the current time, we are facing a lot of difficulties and problems due to this construction work. It will again take some 2-3 months for the cycle track to get finished. There is a significant decrease in the customers here as well. I will need to request the bank to extend the limit of my cash credit for the next six months as there is not enough business going on now.
I	You also have mortgaged this place; you also need to pay for that.
R	Yes, I need to do that as well. But I was always in the favour of Smart City; I had also attended the meetings.
I	Ok, you went to the meetings? Where was the meeting held?
R	It was in the corporate office. They had talked about when this road is going on and how things will be done. But near about 80 to 90% people opposed it by saying choose any other road, why did you want this road? This is the main city road and it is very crowded; you will also face difficulties while doing the construction, So, take the road somewhere else. But what the corporation people were saying is also right; it is the main city road, any outsider who comes to Nashik will see it like this. So, they also wanted to do it on the main road. It was this time I guessed that it wouldn’t be completed in one year as stated. Now, it has been one year since they started the construction work; I think it will again take more than half a year. But once it gets completed this city will look much more beautiful.
I	What are their plans? What have they conveyed in the meeting about the work they are going to do?
R	In the meetings, they had talked about how the main track will be, the cycle track, drainage connections - water connections - electric connections will be. They had also shown us the map explaining it with the laser pointer. I liked it all. But everyone takes it personally by saying that they will face business losses. That is true that everyone will face business losses. Many people like me have taken loans for their needs and what if they are not able to repay them now?
I	Yes, you will then get into trouble.
R	Banks won't consider any reasons as they will keep sending notices. That's why people are opposing it and are trying to change the road which will be under construction. But I have convinced myself that it will take around one and a half years and once it gets completed, I make my board more sophisticated, my shop will look beautiful.
I	How are you thinking to make it sophisticated?
R	Like, I will do the colouring, add a CCTV camera and also computer as told earlier. Then it will look like a forward hotel.
I2	Ok, it's like future planning.
R	Yes. So that people will see it as a beautiful place. They want to see who is operating and handling it and all. Does it align with the other restaurant's looks or not?
I	The things that were shown to you in the presentation, do you see them here during construction?
R	No, I am not able to see that because I am not an architect.
I	But still, those small-small things which you can see. The amenities which were shown to you that will be there; do you see them here?
R	No, at present, I don't see anything like that.
I2	Ok, everything is under construction.
R	I am unable to imagine how this may look. They are making a cycle track, at that side of the road is completed, there is a bus stand there and a place to sit/rest.  So, they have done many good things. If you see from Ashok Stambh to Treymbk Naka, it is a 1.1 km road which they have shown; but there was no urinal earlier on that road. But they have made one now. One more is there on this road. It will be very convenient for all.
I	Have they made public toilets or only urinals?
R	No, only urinals.
I	So, there is nothing for women?
R	No, no. They have made separate urinals for both males and females but at the same place with separate entry.
I2	Very good.
R	That is one thing they did.
I	Now the workers can use them.
R	Yes. But here there are only shopkeepers who will go there.
I2	Do they keep it clean?
R	We can't say now as it is new, but after a year we can see. I don't think there will be much cleanliness because there is always a need to appoint someone to take care of it. They will have to pay that caretaker a salary for his work to maintain cleanliness; otherwise, you won't even go near those urinals. Only 25% of road construction is completed but it is looking good.
I	What is left to be done?
R	Everything is left, it is just in the development phase. They are just in the initial phase of making the drainage system, water supply systems. But the work is in progress, in the development phase. There are not many customers but still, I am here because I want to see how they are doing it and that they are not doing anything wrong. I don't want anything which will trouble me later. Because these are just the workers, they don't have to think about me, they will just do their work and go away. So, I am here to keep track of what they do. But I'm thinking that once all these things are done, everything will be good. So, instead of sitting in the restaurant, we will sit outside on those seats/desks, and continue our talks with friends. Everything will become good. Then, I will also make my board attractive, which becomes an important factor. This location is already good, if I do these things, naturally customers will come to our restaurant.
I	In your opinion, what is the definition of the Smart City? How will you define the term Smart City?
R	I will call it a city development. I don't know what other definitions I can give to it. As the city is developed, we will also get developed.
I	As you said that in the Smart City, people also will be developed. So, what do you think are the demands of a citizen of the Smart City? What do you expect from a smart city as being a citizen of it?
R	I won’t expect that it will meet the expectations of every person. But I will say that there should be a good and clean urinal for gents as well for ladies. There should be a comfortable place to sit outside because after sunset it used to be cool outside. And the senior citizens will be able to freely walk here. Then, there will be no need for them to see if there is any vehicle behind them, there won't be anyone on this track. This pedestrian Lane will help them to walk freely. I will be happy with it because they are my customers too. After all these things are made, it will be very good.
I	Is there any demand for the IT technology revolution?
R	They had said that they would make Wi-Fi free. At signals, it’s the main point, if they do free Wi-fi in that range, it's good.
I	Will it help?
R	Yes, everyone’s communication device is a smartphone only, people will visit that point, it is a landmark. I only remember this one thing which has an IT part in it.
I	It is not done till now?
R	No, it’s not done yet. It will take a lot of time. Maybe in the last segment of completing the smart city work. I am thinking of adding Wi-Fi at home, then I am also thinking that I will add one here. So, customers can order and have their food and also can do their work. 
I	It will become like a café.
I2	That may also increase your customer count.
R	Yes, it will. It is one of the necessary things which one needs to do. There is 50% needed but 50% just gossip. Do you remember anyone saying good morning earlier? Now everyone has to message good morning with a rose.
I	On WhatsApp.
I2	Yes, on WhatsApp. Are there any news messages on WhatsApp or only informal talks?
R	Yes, I do see news on google.
I	What about those WhatsApp forward messages?
R	No, I don’t believe in those WhatsApp forwarded messages. Just take yesterday’s example, we call them ‘Vat-Pournima’, but western people call it ‘Strawberry-Moon’. There is some reason because they harvest berries or something like that. But someone put the message in the group that the colour of the moon will become that of strawberry. I said that it is WhatsApp University research; it’s not true. I make people aware as well. I don’t see the news. Wrong news is everywhere, I simply ignore them. Only those which I think are good, I forward them.
I2	So, you go and verify it on google?
R	I don’t read news on WhatsApp. I just use it for short chats. That’s it. There are friends and relatives, I only have some talk with them.
I2	And news on google.
R	Yes, news on google.
I	Which sites do you prefer reading news from? Any Indian newspapers or…?
R	Yes, I read it from NDTV’s site. I am fond of music and even read BBC Music news. I even have an interest in astrology, I read that too, but that I prefer different sites for different things. I remember a few site's names so putting that helps me find them quickly. 
I2	Do you use google maps?
R	Yes, I do. I rarely use it, but still, I can say I use it.
I	When? To go somewhere?
R	No, not while going but before going I use it to see how the route is and how I should go. To decide the route beforehand.
I2	I rarely leave this place to go somewhere. Only sometimes to Bombay for any marriage function or things like that.
R	I don’t use it as much as my children use it for navigation or do other stuff on google. When they tell me things, I just keep listening to them. I don’t use it that much but I do use some.
I	Have you ever heard of data privacy? Issues related to it.
R	Yes, I am afraid of that. 
I	Someone can even steal your identity.
R	I always say that if you have a smartphone, there is no privacy. In 2050, there will be a scenario like where I am going and all will be known. If I say that I will come to you after visiting the bank. Then you will say that you didn’t go to the bank, you went somewhere else. Why did you lie? 
I	Then what do you think, is it good or bad?
R	It's both. We cannot progress without it. But it’s not good to use it more. There is always a hidden enemy to see what things are happening and all. 
I2	Has it happened to you ever?
R	Yes, there have been incidences of calling when I am not at home and checking who is at the home. I have installed True Caller on my phone so that I would know who is calling. Also, we can know the intention of their call. Then I ask why you called me? Just to make wastage gossips. This is mostly done by relatives and friends. And things like that keep happening. I have earlier tried to get the list of phone calls from the BSNL office but they said that we will give only the outgoing list. For the incoming calls list, we will need police. I came to know this at that time.
I2	So, have you done a police complaint?
R	No, I haven’t. Because it was not a big issue. Now my daughter has set up google at home. What do you call it…that plays this song?
I	Oh, Alexa.
R	Yes, Alexa. We hear songs from it. And when the house is silent, it records all the sounds in the home.
I2	We usually put the sticker on the laptop’s camera. Because people can even record from there remotely.
R	Oh, really.
I	Yes, because you have given the permissions and your data to big-big companies, they can remotely monitor you and take pictures of you.
R	Oh, okay.
I2	Even viruses are the trouble. If your laptop is connected to the internet, it can give access to viruses.
R	Viruses have damaged many of my files. I am practising using a computer and have encountered many files as being damaged. I had Wi-Fi here. But as soon as the children went, I had to remove it as I was not able to manage it. But now I want to add it again. 
I	This is becoming an interesting conversation. We are talking about the advantages and disadvantages of smartphones and then on the other hand we are talking about the smart city. Do you think there is any relation between them? Like, what should be the public behaviour while using the Wi-Fi?
R	No, I never thought about it. I never thought about my personal role as a citizen.
I	What are your rights? What are your duties as a smart citizen? Because the rights and duties are interrelated.
R	I only know that we should keep moral values. Like, as you are in the Smart City, you should keep the moral values, respect elders, help senior citizens, and things like that. But I never thought about the personal role of myself as a citizen of the smart city. It will be good if you tell me.
I	We too don’t know, that’s why we are asking you. People have now become digitally aware. How do you think citizens can benefit from Smart Cities technology? 
R	I can’t say what advantage they can get but there have been facilities for them.
I	There have been urban development earlier, what do you think is the difference between that and what is happening now?
R	There is a huge difference. There are clean roads and you can easily go anywhere. For example, when I used to go to school which was in the locality, not so far. When we used to have a holiday or early leave; we used to play cricket on the road. We used to play for hours and hours but not a single car used to pass from there.
R	I never thought about personal involvement in it. I know that we need to be aware that everything done is for us and we need to safeguard it.
I2	What are your rights being a citizen and a businessman? What are the facilities you can ask the municipal corporation to avail you of here?
R	We can demand essential things like water supply, electricity, drainage, and cleanliness. We have asked them to put the dustbin at every corner, on every lane. But they have not shown on the map at that time. Then no one will throw garbage anywhere. Kids copy us. We will not throw anything on the street.
I	You were saying that there is a huge difference in the construction work under smart city projects and other development projects. What is it?
R	Till now, I am unable to imagine it but it will come with all the facilities. There won’t be any electric poles outside. There will be all essential facilities which were not earlier. Here you see that there are four poles- few have lights and few don’t. Ladies were afraid of getting outside at night. Now, things won’t be like that. If this road along with other things is developed, then ladies can freely commute here. No one can harass here; things like that only happen in the darkness. There will be a good change. Everyone will be able to walk freely. If it is dark outside, then drunk people do riot. But in the absence of darkness, these things will be lowered.  If the road is beautiful, then they will also try to avoid making it worse. This road is the entrance to Nashik.
I	Nashik being a smaller city as compared to Mumbai, what are your views about it becoming a smart city. Is it good or bad? Are there any advantages or disadvantages for Nashik?
R	Yes, it is a pilgrim. The crowd always comes here. There was in the newspaper that Nashik has more crowds than that in the world.
I	Is it good or bad?
R	It is good. If they maintain everything well, then they will be able to handle this crowd more efficiently. What is the visiting point here? Trimbakeshwar is the place where most people go. Nashik has few temples like Ram Mandir, Hanuman Mandir. So, anyone will come and easily go to that place. That is the thing of prime importance. This will increase, I guess. Lanes are made larger than earlier. That will help in better traffic management and good communication. If communication is good, everything’s good.
I	I have seen here hoardings of hotels saying wine theme rooms. Wines are popular, I guess. So, what do you think that on one side you have a Kumbh-Mela crowd and on other hand, you have a wine-lovers crowd, what would you say?
R	There won’t be that big wine crowd. It’s a foreign tourist crowd and very limited. If we compare it with the devotees’ crowd, it's insignificant. Also, people visiting for wine are only to show that they have money. Otherwise, there is wine everywhere, why specifically want Sula wine?
I	So, what do you think should be the identity of Nashi – Sula Wine or Kumbhmela?
R	It should be Kumbh Mela. No one can change it. Sula Wine is just a small place. And everyone has a god in his heart just from childhood. You can see that the biggest drinker will even avoid drinking while visiting the temple. So, there is God in everyone’s heart. They will avoid going for Sula wine on Mondays, Saturdays.
I	Do they drink Sula wine or desi? Because Sula wine is so expensive. 
R	Sula wine’s crowd is different and desi’s crowd is different. Desi drinkers don’t need rum or wine. They only need desi and a silent place to sleep. That crowd is entirely different. Every day they earn and drink. The Sula wine crowd is a very sophisticated crowd and they may believe in God but desi people won’t believe much, they can't be controlled. I have experienced these things.
	[inaudible]
I2	So, is there a religion linked with it?
R	Yes, here in the front, there used to be the oldest wine shop in Nashik named Bombay wine, which was among the first shops openly selling wines. It was the biggest for the western wines. Sometimes, I need to call someone, and at that time not everyone has phones, they are used to telephones. That time I went there, and I saw that the crowd was less, then that sardar guy said to me, ‘today it is ‘Chaturthi, there won’t be a crowd today.’ I said that, why? Drinkers don’t know what Chaturthi is or not? But then I saw this, my views changed. So, these things do happen, he was non-Maharashtrian but he knew that today there is Ekadashi and all. Then I started thinking that way too. So, there is a spiritual aspect behind many things. If there is no-moon night (Amavasya), then there used to be a very small crowd. If there is no moon night along with the month-end, then I used to keep my shop closed because there used to be no crowd at all. If I had to keep my shop open on Mahashivratri, then it was mandatory for me to cook sabudana-khichdi. Everyone used to fast on that day. These things are less in metro-cities but it is more in Nashik I see. And the corporation is supporting all these things by making roads, and things favourable for people. Our business relies on them only. Others are salesmen from different industries who visit here to sell their products. Devotees should come to Nashik, as they will come then only I will get a chance to serve them. And I will also serve sabudana-khichdi on the day of fasting.
I	Now, this looks like a good business. You have done a good study about it.
R	I won’t say it as a business attitude but it is just a general way of how life is in Nashik. This is how you need to be if you want to run a business in Nashik.
I2	We can say it as the thinking of Nashik city.
R	Yes, we can say so.
I	So, what is Nashik’s future? And what do you want it to be?
R	I never thought about it. It should be a good smart city. The whole Nashik city should become like the Smart city which is being constructed now. There is an old Nashik behind this road; its development is slower as compared to this. But this development is not like what we see in Pune and Mumbai. I am not able to explain it, but there is some childish nature of people. 
I	There is no discipline.
R	That discipline is not there.
I2	Do you mean the discipline of the citizens or corporation people?
R	Citizens only lag the discipline. Now discipline will automatically come with this. If you see a dustbin, you will throw the wrapper in the dustbin only. Earlier I used to keep a whistle with me. When I go to buy vegetables and I see anyone throwing garbage inappropriately, I used to whistle, then the next person will put that garbage in the dustbin. The fear is in everyone but why don’t they do it themselves?
I	From where have you indulged in this discipline? Were you any social speaker or…?
R	It is from my family.
I	How did your thoughts become like this?
R	I am a brahmin so my thoughts are like this from earlier. There is discipline at home too. If you drink tea, you will wash your cup. If you want to throw any wrapper, you need to put it in the dustbin.
I2	So, this is my last question. She might have some more. When you are talking about Nashik’s future, what is the position of different-different people in it? Like you said, senior citizens should have their rights. You have even talked about ladies. So, what do you think about other communities? Can they equally enjoy this future?
R	For the development of all, there should be some spiritual function which should be located at the place where all the facilities are available. Then people will unite there.
I2	What do you mean by spiritual function?
R	Anything like a lecture or so. Every year in Nashik, we used to have 30 continuous lectures in May. People used to go there.
I2	What are the topics for it?
R	There are different topics. Everything is related to society. So, people face various issues while going there. There, I used to visit very good lecturers but it remains unknown. That should be made known.
I2	That shows the importance of public space.
R	If 100 people come willingly, then 50 will go back with inspiration and at least 25 will behave accordingly. 
I2	So, public space should be clean.
R	Yes, it should be. The corporation should also focus on it. Anyone doing social activities should be encouraged.
I2	What spaces do you think should be unchanged in the city of Nashik?
R	Playgrounds should remain unaffected.
I2	Where are they in the city?
R	There is a golf club, which is made. It is very good. Also, there is high school ground here, it is said to be sold for a shop, but these things should be avoided. There is an educational square here, there are many schools, and all have playgrounds, they should remain unchanged. They should be given some extra facilities. They are making green gyms. It is good, it should be appreciated. There, they keep instruments which anyone can use to exercise. That is good.  This is there from place to place. Because health is wealth.
I2	What other important places should be there?
R	Urinals should be there. If they are not there, gents will go anywhere. Otherwise, they will make the places dirty.
I2	So, public toilets are very important.
R	Yes, they are very important. If we let the ladies’ toilets aside, they are already less. If you go and stand for 5 minutes in the gents' toilet, you will feel unconscious. There is so much smell.
I2	So, there is no cleaning.
R	Yes. And then there should be playgrounds. If a person leaves home, he should be thinking of going back only at night to sleep. Then only he will be able to focus on his work. I got to know this because of my cousin and daughter. They have so much pressure of work and they are not able to find the public toilets outside. They also had urinary tract infections sometimes. Ladies have to control so much. Then we got to know how important it is.
I2	Exactly.
R	And it is not there in Nashik. Pune has made many of them. We got to know this because my daughter was learning there.
I2	Pune is like an educational centre.
R	And they have kept a family to take care of it. So, one family is now surviving on it.
I	One last question.
R	Yes.
I	Before the meeting which they had arranged for the smart road, when there was a proposal for a smart city; the corporation had said that they went to each citizen for a survey to know what they needed. For that purpose, they had arranged the meetings. Have you been to any of those?
R	Yes, I went to 1 or 2 of them. They never asked anyone. They only asked them to join the meeting. They showed the proposal that this is what we are going to do and only this will be done. Thus, everything came from the ministry as they wanted to have something to show before the elections. They had done nothing here. If you see, the water from the whole of western Maharashtra comes into Nashik. But there is nothing for Nashik citizens. They wanted to avoid such rebellion; I guess this was coming from the central ministry, so there was no option to change. This is the way which they found to get out of trouble. The marking which is done on the road here is older than a year. They used to come to do the measurements to track what should be here. I used to ask them why are you doing this? Because they used to come here for food, and they were engineers. They told me that it is the plan of Nashik as a smart city. there will be a big cement road, there will be a 1.5 feet slab and all. So, I said, there won’t be any airplane landing here, right? They said it is the same as that runway only. I asked, why should it be there? They said it will be there. 
I	They have just spent so much public money.
R	Yes, this road was in good condition only; there was no damage to it. If they had done this to any other road, it would have been better. But it's fine, now this is what it is. If they make it good, then the public will be happy or if they are not successful in making it good, the public will be really unhappy.
I	What do you think will happen if it fails?
R	The public won’t be able to do anything I know. They can only abuse them sitting beside them.
I	During elections, they can do it.
R	What will they do? They just forget these things in 5 years. That memory is also short. What can I say?  If they get any personal profit, they will forget this. The head of this knows that they will forget everything. Those engineers used to have their food here only. They also used to appreciate the food.
I	From where they used to be? Were they from India only?
R	Yes, they are from India only, but from different places. There was no local engineer involved there, otherwise, they would not have asked me things. The local officers only use it to guide them and then sit back in the office. 
I	Thank you. Do you have anything to ask?
R	No, but please tell me the answer to that thing which you asked me and I was unable to answer. How should I personally be for the smart city?
I	That we too don’t know. That’s why we are researching it so that we can find an answer to such questions. Hopefully, once this research completes, we will be able to answer it. 


NI021
I	Tell me a little about yourself, how long have you been in Nashik, how did you come to the priestly union?
R	Ganga Godavari Mata Ki Jai. I am *** *** ***, President of Ganga Godavari, Panchkoti, Purohit Sangh, Nashik, Panchavati. This priestly association is a very ancient institution in Nashik, it is the oldest main pilgrimage and it is described as [Recites Shloka]. This is the Nashik in which Lord Brahma Dev Ji had done austerities by applying Padmasana to create the universe. This Nashik has been an ancient pilgrimage for millions of years since time immemorial. Here, 350 families belong to the Tirtha Purohit Sangh. They have existed since time immemorial. They still hold a record of 700-800 years when Kings and Maharajas used to come from all over the world to visit all the pilgrimage. Here the method is such that people used to write the names of their ancestors after making a pilgrimage, by making sure that they are their vice-chancellors, priests. They make the pilgrimage from the hands of the priests and later used to give their names to them and their signature was kept under it mentioning what else they did in Nashik and how they feel, found the names of their ancestors, etcetera. After that, after seeing everyone here, they write about their family and give it to them. Next, whoever comes from their family, will accept this shrine for the priests and worship them, they write this and give it to them. This tradition is from time immemorial. We have the signature of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, the signature of his father, Shahji Raje, the signature of his ancestors, and the signature of those who come after him. The tradition here in the Godavari, of the Nashik and the significance of the pilgrimage, is known to the priests from ancient times. In the Brahmanda Purana and wherever the significance of Nasik Panchavati Godavari is written in ancient texts, all the priests here are aware of it.
I2	You have a very important place here in the union. When urbanisation is happening in Nashik, like when there is planning for a smart city, what was the advice that was taken from you and the union, what kind of interaction was there with you?
R	We have had only two meetings so far, out of which one meeting was held just 4 days ago and one meeting was held only at the beginning
I	In 2016.
R	Then it was initially a formal meeting and in the meeting which was held 4 days ago, we had told them all the opinions that we have. We had told them what is the significance of this shrine here and what is its origin, like there are five shrines here inside Ramathirtha, there is Aruna Godavari Sangam shrine, Astrinay shrine, Surya shrine, and Agni shrine. There are five main shrines. We have told them its significance. For example, Aruna and Godavari pilgrimage is very important for the confluence, then bathing in that confluence would have caused immediate destruction of all bad things. Lord Shiva took a bath there, it explained the bad things. Even today people have direct experiences. There is Asthinay tirtha in front where methodical bone immersion is done and after 3.5 hours ashes are flown, even today it happens. There is water inside such a pilgrimage which is its main importance and its awareness is known to all the ancestral priests here. If something has to be done inside it, it should not be done without the advice of the priests.
I2	According to their plans, what is going to happen here?  What is your opinion about it?
R	They have not given any details to us. We have just heard from them that they want to build some gardens next to the ghat at the top of the river Godavari, they want to do some lighting there.
I	You said they have done some planning for the garden?
R	Yes, they have done the planning of the garden, some were talking about the lighting, in front of the Victoria Bridge and they are also talking about some planning here. I said that before finalizing it they should be discussing with us and mentioning every part of the plan. It is important because once it is implemented, there will be an interpolation in the minds of the people about what has been done. The significance of this pilgrimage is from thousands of years here and there should be no disturbance in it.
I	Exactly. Have they made any plans for this premise?
R	No, they have not told us any details yet.
I2	If you are asked that we are creating a smart city and the officials ask about what you need in this area, what kind of--?
R	First of all, the flow of Ganga Godavari is unbroken, it should remain flowing.
I2	But, it has stopped now.
R	What should be done for it is that there is Gangapur Dam at the top, there is Kashyapi-Godavari Sangam there. When it rains, there is a lot of water in the rainy season, and all of it flows away. There are two dams up there, if one more dam is constructed and controlled when there is no rain here, that water is flown then it will remain flowing for the whole 12 months.
I2	As per your understanding how much the general public knows about the plan for the smart city? You have some knowledge because you have talked a little bit.
R	Very few people know. It seems that very few people know. Only the term, “Smart City” has been in discussion. The common man only knows this much about the smart city which is published in the newspaper.
I	They are saying that a lot of technological things will be done in the Smart City project related to the internet, Wi-Fi spots, etcetera.
	[unintelligible]
I	They are saying that they will install Wi-Fi spots here, do you think these things are required in this area, do you think there will be some benefit from all these things in this area?
R	What?
I2	They will install CCTV cameras or install some new devices to measure the data, etcetera. What do you think, are those things necessary in this area or something else is required? As the smart city is a very big project, they are saying that there will be technology, what is your opinion about it?
R	They should have frequent meetings with the priestly association so that the priestly association knows what is going on and after knowing it, we can tell them our views. They should discuss it with us. Like I said, just four days ago, we had a meeting, before that there was only one meeting when it was just an imagination.  There has been no meeting in between.
I2	What kind of discussion happened in the meeting that was held just four days ago?
R	In that meeting, we said the same thing that we told you now, nobody should be disturbed in any way. Whatever is to be done here, they should discuss it with the priestly union and tell them about it. If the union agrees only then they should do it
I2	What was their reaction?
R	They felt it was right because they also know what is inside it. For example, here comes a river named Arun from Gaumukh. Aruna and Godavari have got a confluence here. Nobody among them knows the significance of this confluence. One day, what an officer did, there was a wall in the middle which they started breaking and all the material there was taken out and put in it. When people came, they became furious, then people got down and took it all out and threw it out. It should never be done in the future. They should discuss with us and get all the information before doing anything.
I	As per my knowledge from the newspapers, the area where the concrete was put. When did it happen and what was its result?
R	One incident of putting the concrete happened in 1954. Later, another incident happened in 1991. They say that if they dig out the concrete, the stones under them won’t be smooth. Thousands of people who come here for bathing will get injured legs.
I2	They might slip.
R	They have to say there is a higher chance of getting injured.
I	What do you think about it?
R	It is now that we told them that the Ganga is constantly flowing [unintelligible 00:12:38].
If you are 100 percent guaranteed that there is a source of water, then bore it so that the water can be drained and make it flow. If you just dig out from here to there, the people will be troubled and the purpose will not be fulfilled, it should not happen.
I	If the visitors who come here want to offer some prayers, how do they reach you?
R	They come to us and then ask us who are the priests of their family. There are 350 priest houses here who have come here as priests by tradition. Each priest has different travellers, like Punjabi people have 15-20 priests, Sindhi people have 10-12 priests, Gujaratis have 15-20 priests. Whoever has the names of their house, they check the names, and after making sure about their priest they do their religious rituals with that priest according to their guidance and further write their names in it.
I2	As the priest's Union is very important if the Smart City people do not take advice from them here, what do you think, up to what extent is the scheme successful? Will it be successful?
R	No, it is like this, it is an ancient pilgrimage area since time immemorial and it is famous all over the world. The main reason for this is the pilgrimage program here. If inside the smart city, if it is touched or disturbed, then the feelings of the entire general public of the country, people of Nashik, and people from outside will be hurt and when the feeling is hurt then [unintelligible 00:15:00] agitation will be formed from it.
I2	From a religious point of view, what does a smart city mean? What do you think from a religious point of view?
R	From a religious point of view, this place should be clean first of all.  Secondly, there should be a garden and trees. I have given them a suggestion that above each of the two ghats of Ganga Ji, above every 15 feet, there should be planted a Banyan, a Peepal tree, and make a platform. There is this power in the peepal and banyan tree to absorb the water from the ground and pull it. If that water goes with the flow of Ganga Ji, it will help the water to flow continuously. People will love to see it and they will also be able to do religious programs there.
I2	Has there been any suggestion in writing on behalf of the Union?
R	No, we have given it to the commissioner of the corporation, and the former commissioner, and also to the CM.
I2	Can you get us a copy?
R	Yes, you will get it.
I2	Where?
R	We will give it to you tomorrow.
I2	We want to include your suggestion in our study.
R	We will provide you, we have it in written form.
I	We will make a copy of that. If people do not know about the priest union, that there is any such union in Nashik, and they want to worship or perform religious rituals, how will they know that there is a Sangh/union here? Is there any online website? Or are there people from the union in some other cities that tell people that they can go there?
R	We have done this on mobile as well.
I	Application?
R	We have our office above and here. People come here and contact us, they inquire, they get guidance from here.
I	What is the name of the mobile application?
R	Our boy would know.
	[silence]
R	What is the name of the mobile application of our priest union? One minute-
I	Hello, this is *** *** speaking. [unintelligible 00:18:37 – 00:19:02] (telling about our project details)
There is a Facebook page but not a mobile application. So, what is the Facebook page or website? Alright.
He said there is a Facebook page and website, a mobile application is not available right now.
You have been watching Nashik for a long time, Nashik is developing in front of you, so what is the biggest challenge or difficult thing that comes during its development?
R	Development is getting good, it is growing faster. But the problem is that the ancient industry that existed earlier used to run very well. Though the development is increasing, the industries are shrinking these days. It should not happen. Secondly, the development that is going on with it, criminal activities are increasing too. This should not happen.
I	What is the vision of the political representatives and people from municipal corporations here, how do they see the development of Nashik or how do they reach the people?
R	They are going with the natural development here.
I2	How is the relation of the priestly union with people like MLA MP MLA or municipal corporators? What kind of conversation do they have?
R	If there is something about here, we talk to them. If they have some opinion, we talk to them. It is like that the Simhastha Kumbh Mela takes place here. There are four places in India where it is held, Haridwar, Allahabad, Ujjain, Nashik. From deciding the date of the royal bath of Simhastha Kumbh Mela till the last, all the planning is done by the priest union. The dates are decided by the priest union. They hold meetings with the Mahatma’s Akhada and Vaishnav’s Akhada. Our role is between the government and the pilgrims, thus, there should be regular meetings in one-two months held at the administrative level with the priestly union. And whatever solution is derived from the meeting should be followed and implemented.
I2	Are all the priests who are here the members of the union?
R	They have come from the [unintelligible 00:22:40] ancient tradition. Our pilgrim priests have this hereditary right which passes on from their grandfather's and great grandfather's family to them. So, whoever comes from their families becomes members of the union.
I2	How many members are there?
R	We have 350 gharanas.
I2	Are there any names for each of them?
R	Yes, each of them have, like Dixit, Chauche, Vare, Garge, Shinde, Shuklav. These are all gharanas.
I2	As the priests have a relationship with different societies, some are connected with the Sindhi society, some are from the Punjabi society, are these gharanas connected with societies?
R	They are all from these 350 gharanas.
I2	Alright. Which society do you have?
R	We have everyone in our society. We have Rajasthan, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, and slightly from Gujarat. Rajasthan is more, there is Andhra Pradesh, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh.
I2	Who has Maharashtra?
R	Maharashtra [unintelligible 00:23:52]
I	What do you call these records?
R	These are called Naamavad. Today they have come here to perform this bone immersion. They told the names of their ancestors who also came here. Seeing all that they do the religious rituals and worship, and then writing their names. It is an old tradition going on for years.
I	Is all the documentation that happens written on paper, never on some computers?
R	Yes, it is written. We have not done it on the computer yet but the process is going on.
I2	Where are those documents that are very old?
R	This is a special paper. There is a village named junnar in the Pune district. In the village of Junnar, handmade papers are made. Those are very expensive.
I2	They do not get damaged quickly, right?
R	No. Earlier, the Shai who used to live here made it themselves. They boiled millet and mixed with soot and wrote with puru. The written documents are still safe now. I will give you an example wait
	[silence]
R	This is 200-250 years old. Water was spilled here.
I2	How old is this one?
R	This is 200 years old, look at where water was spilled. But it did not deteriorate, all letters are clear. It includes the name of Kabul to Kandahar and the whole of Lanka to the South.
I	Is there a system in it to find names from such bulky records?
R	See here is Maheshwari it includes their surnames, their gotra and their native village. In the native village, the names are in alphabetical order.
I	Mine is Dahake, the native village is Dahadi, [unintelligible] district.

R	We will find it.
I	When you search in Dahadi village, you will get it?
R	No, which one are you under Dahake- Maratha?
I	Leva Patil.
R	We will find it in the native village of Leva Patil. This is of the Birla family of GD Birla and RD Birla. Their grandfather and great-grandfather have all come here. Their signatures are here. Everybody’s signature is here.
I2	It seems you have to digitize it, as this is dwindling now.
R	Yes, we have to.
I2	Is the process going on?
R	Yes, it is under process.
I2	Is it being transformed from paper to digital form into the computer?
R	Yes, it is being done. But our system is better than the computer because we can find anything in minutes.
I2	Yes, you can get new papers.
R	Yes if it is increased, then we put the supplementary paper under it and then write further.
I	Are copies made for these or there is only one copy?
R	Yes, copies are made.
I2	Where are the old records kept?
R	At home, in a safe, box, or compartments. Please write that the priests here should be protected by the government from rain and wind to protect this. We have demanded it.
I2	It should be included in the smart city.
R	In the meeting held the day before yesterday, we demanded that the government construct accommodation for each priest here to protect their documents. In our last meeting 4 days ago, It should be included in the smart city project.
I	As you said there are 350 gharanas in the priest union, how are the priests trained? At home?
R	Yes, at home. When the kid is eight years old, his janvi is held, then he is sent to school. Then he is taught about the Vedas and after that, he is also sent to school. He comes here to learn and train from his father.
I2	Are the boys of the priestly family still interested in this?
I	The kids of a new generation?
R	Not 100 percent
I2	Still, there is 90 percent?
R	No, only seventy to eighty percent.
I2	Which field are they interested in? Do you have any other boys from your family here?
R	My son is here, he has passed out MBA and B. Com with first class but he does it.
I2	Why?
R	It is because we need him here too.
I2	Ancestral job.
R	Yes, it is an ancestral job and also because we need him. If he doesn't do it then this tradition will vanish.
I2	Where does your family come from?
R	They are from Nashik. We have 11 generations and I remember everything because I handled all of their documents. We have records of more than 400 years old.
I	In July, we are holding a meeting for the stakeholders like the priest union, activists, and workers from here. We will map the significant needs of the different communities here in Nashik. After the completion of the project, we will present that report to the municipality and ask them to include all those points in their planning and policies which are considered important by the public. The workshop would be like this. We will invite you for that, please come.
R	Definitely.
I	Do you use a smartphone?
R	No. My son uses it.
I	You don’t use it?
R	I also use it but my phone has been stolen three to four times. That is why I am keeping the simple mobile phone now.
I2	Whom should we meet here if we want to talk about smart cities and religion?
R	There is someone named *** ***.


NI034
R	Yes…ask.
I	Since when have you been working here?
R	I’ve been here for the past 15 to 20 years.
I	Ever since then?
R	This means that I have been here since I was small, since my childhood.
I	Since childhood
I2	What made you come here?
R	I am from Nashik
I2	What made you come here?
R	What made me come here is because all my ancestors stayed here.
I	So why did you choose to work here and nowhere else but here?
R	This is a religious place. I was born here,
I	Okay.
R	Accordingly.
I2	Okay.
I	So, you have been seeing this Goda Ghat area since then?
R	Yes, it used to be beautiful.
I	How was it then?
R	It used to be beautiful, but it isn’t anymore.
I	How was it before?
R	It has changed.
I	Okay?
R	Since 2003, 2004, border...
I	During the time of Kumbh?
R	During the time of Kumbh.
I2	[inaudible] at the time of Kumbh.
I	How many Kumbh’s have you seen?
R	2
I	2?
R	Hmm.
I2	So, how is it like when Kumbh is going on?
I	Yes, tell us something about Kumbh.
R	People come to take a royal bath here. It's like a lot of people visit in crowd forms. That's it. Pandits take a royal bath. common people like us also take bath in it.
I	Hmm
R	After Kumbh ends, common people bath in it. That is how it happens. 
I	The 2 Kumbh’s that you have seen, were they similar or different? 
R	I don’t exactly remember the 1st Kumbh.
I	Okay, you were small then?
R	I was small then, around 10 to 12 years of age.
I	Okay
R	I was not very small
I	Okay
R	After that, I remember this Kumbh.
I	Okay, this Kumbh?
R	I remember.
I	Okay. So, has a lot of changes happen since that time?
R	Yes, a lot of changes has taken place.
I	So, what has changed? concrete, etc?
R	This concrete was here since a long time.
I	Okay
R	Since 2003, 2004.
I	Okay…okay
R	Everything was ready. They have applied some colours to this Kumbh Mela.
I	Okay. Okay... okay. So, they have coloured it.
I2	What do you think about concrete?
R	Tell them what you think about concrete. We can’t tell them, nothing happened, we just have to tell them.
R	Our old Ganga was there, they have prepared it.
R2	They should have information about it.
R	They have to be given information. Now you have to explain to them in your language. You can do this better.
R2	Yes
R2	They understand Marathi.
R	Okay. Madam, I am speaking in Marathi, they speak Hindi.
I	You can speak in Marathi also.
R	Okay, please ask.
I2	Actually…
R	You speak in Hindi
R	[inaudible] quite secretly.
I2	We have come from a research institute.
R	Right.
I2	And we are here to do some studies about the Godavari…
R	Yes, right.
I2	About the projects undertaken in this city related to the Godavari.
I	We are here to find out what people think about the changes that have taken place in so many years in this Ghat area. What do you think about it? Was it better before the changes took place or is it better now?
R	It was better before. Everywhere is dirty now.
I	Okay... So how was it before?
R	Before, this place was full of stones.
I	Okay…
R	When my grandmother was here, this was our stall and the parking venture… Now I am 40 years old. This slab has come up because everywhere is now dirty. The water from the gutters and sewers flows into the Mother Ganga.
I	Right
R	Dakshin Vaahiniand is actually considered to be so sacred that Bhagwan Mahadev ji, Kapaleshwar Baba who had committed the sin of killing Brahma, had washed away his sins here. Lord Rama performed his father’s last rites here. This means Dakshin Goda Vaahini is considered to be very important, but these people have made this place quite dirty. All the Pujaris, people here mean…you will think that there used to be stones here. Lord Rama had visited this place when he was in exile. There is a Sita Gufa here where Mother Sita had stayed for 4 months, this place is so sacred but these people have created a lot of mess here which includes taking advantage of their power illegally, and the spread of filth here. Kumbh Mela takes place here once in 12 years, it’s so huge that you may not be able to imagine it and many people visit here. Now, there is no arrangement for the people here and it’s all dirty. Garbage is lying everywhere. The whole drainage water is going there.
I	Yes.
R	Mahadev is bathed with this. This is wrong. Lord Shiva who runs this world, is bathed with this dirty water. They wash their slippers here and throw alcohol bottles anywhere after drinking.
I	Okay.
R2	There is a dustbin here.
R	They spread a lot of filth here even though the dustbin is kept here.
R2	Dustbin [inaudible 00:04:00]
R	Even then, the poor people are the ones causing this problem here. 
I	Okay.
R	They get food for free. They get tea, snacks. Whatever extra they have, they throw it in the Ganga. They throw alcohol bottles at night after drinking and the broken bottles pierce the feet of the guests who visit this place.
I	Hmm.
R	People sometimes fall because this place is not cleaned properly. These are the kind of wrongs that happens here at river Ganga.
I2	Okay
R	And those who preach in the name of religion are the ones doing the wrong thing in the first place.
I	Yes.
R	As a matter of fact, you should improve yourself first before improving the world.
I	Hmm.
R	You need to improve yourself first. If we keep our house clean, only then will we be able to tell others about it. It’s wrong if our place is dirty and then we point fingers on others.
I	That’s right.
R	And this is completely wrong. This slab work on top has done a lot of damage because everything comes up and cause...
I	Hmm.
R	A lot of floods. Before, floods were not there.
I	Yes because of the slab.
R	There is water flowing in people’s houses.
I	Yes
R	They have lifted the slab up. And there were old Kunds here, our forefathers used to say, there used to be 108 Kunds here. So live water used to flow here. But because of this now the water is locked somewhere. Now Mother Ganga is appearing clean as dam water is flowing in it. As you can see, there is complete filth here in this Mother Ganga.
I	Please tell us the story about these Kunds, what used to be in these Kunds.
R	There were 108 Kunds in total here. Laxman Kund, Sita Kund, Ram Kund and there are 108 Kunds in this Tapovan.
I	Okay.
R	They were prepared for bathing, at that time.
I	Alright.
R	When Lord Rama came here, there was a Vaneshwar Maharaj’s Temple which is considered to be self-originated. Lord Ramachandra shot an arrow there.
I	Okay.
R	And then Shivling appeared there. Hence it is called Vaneshwar. Whenever there is no rain in Nashik, Vaneshwar Baba will be filled with water locked with thorns on all four sides. The day thorns are erected, there is a lot of disturbance around it. This is the history of Vaneshwar Baba.
I	Okay.
R	This is a very powerful place and the saint of Nashik, National Saint Janardhan Swamy Sadguru has done a lot of meditation there. The most sacred of all the places is the Vaneshwar.
I	Okay.
R	Whatever the Baba has created there is quite tremendous. There is a history of Nashik called “Dutondya Maruti”.
I	Yes. Yes.
R	It is also one of the histories of Nashik. If water flows over it, then you can consider Nashik to be drowned. It’s called “Mahapur”.
I	Yes.
R	Such old places of God,
I	Yes.
R	They are diminishing slowly to a level that anyone can come and play mischief with God as per their wish. Steps should be taken to keep these old places secured.
I	Hmm.
R	We need to take some actions, but what can we do? People of this place are like this because some of them are not able to do anything and the ones who are doing something, they are being pulled back.
I	Okay.
R	If anyone raises his voice to put forward this issue/concern, he is pulled back. People here are bad.
I	Hmm.
R	The good ones are benefitting from this Mother Ganga and they understand this. But other people sitting there are doing wrong things.
I	So, the Kund there is natural, or is it prepared?
R	Yes, it's natural.
I	Alright.
R	It’s there since the era of Lord Rama in Panchavati.
I	Alright.
R	Previously Nashik used to be called Gulshanabad.
I	Yes.
R	Rama had performed his father, Dashrath’s last rites here, after completing his exile.
I	Okay.
R	This was the first Hasti Kund here in Nashik.
I	Okay.
R	Here the bone ash is turned to water within 24 hours.
I	Hmm.
R	Else you can imagine so many people performing last rites would have turned into a mountain by now. But many good scientists have visited here, have done research here but till now no one is able to find out how the bones disappear and turn into the water here. So, this is the importance of this Rama Kund.
I2	So, does water appear in Kund, freshwater?
R	No, there is a big hole that has a net on it. There the bone ash is allowed to flow. After dropping the bone ash, till now no one is able to find out how it turns into the water there.
I2	Okay.
R	This is the biggest history of that place.
I2	Okay.
I	So, after pouring concrete did it lock?
R	It locked completely. The complete scene/look of Mother Ganga changed. This concrete has a lot of dirt here.
I	So do you think the concrete has to be removed?
R	Yes, sister, concrete has to be removed, 101%. Old springs will start to flow then.
I	Hmm.
R2	When they poured concrete here, so these springs got locked. Old springs will start to flow then.
R	The old natural springs will start to flow then.
I	Hmm.
R2	Now it’s like…
R	They are suppressed now. When they did concrete, the springs got locked.
I	Hmm.
R	Its water got divided and started flowing in different directions. Previously this water directly used to come into Rama Kund. According to me, this has to be broken as it is necessary to be broken.
I	Okay, and what can be done to improve this noise around us?
R	Look, there is Baba’s temple in front, Yashwant Maharaj, and it's quite old. This is Gandhi Jyot. It’s been there since those years. Now nothing new needs to be erected. All existing things are more than enough now.
I	Whatever is existing is enough.
R	Whatever exists is quite enough. If you give people permission, they will erect temples at different places.
I	Hmm.
R	It’s of no use. It’s better to worship one God instead of 100. If you see from here till Rama Kund, there are almost around 300 to 350 Shivalinga there.
I	Yes.
R	When we go to the bath, our feet touch the Shivalinga, which is a disgrace to God. When we go out, people talk about this kind of thing being done to God. Aren't our feet touching the Shivalinga is a disgrace to God?
I	Yes.
R	Around 350 Shivalingas are there in Rama Kund.
I	Hmm. And what about the park which was created here, do you think it should exist for good?
R	It is L&T’s contract and they are preparing an automatic gate there. They have been given a period of 7 months..
I	Yes
R	The group is from Hyderabad and their actions are so quick and their work is also fast.
I	Yes. You think they will be able to construct it.
R	For sure, they will be able to construct it and that too, 2 months in advance.
I	Okay.
R	Because our big bridge is prepared by
I	Yes
R	L&T people and they have only constructed it. They are a very powerful group from Hyderabad.
I	Yes.
R	They will definitely make it. There is an automatic gate there.
I	Okay yes.
R	because of which when the water level rises, it will automatically go up. It’s called “svayamchalit”.
I	Yes.
R	Hydraulic power and when the water level falls, it will automatically get locked. There is a board displayed there which says they will construct it in 7 months.
I2	Okay.
I	So, will they make the park also beautiful?
R	Definitely, 101%. Their work is very good and they have earned a good name for themselves in Nashik.
I	Okay… okay.
R	L&T means No. 1
I	Does it mean they have constructed the bridge too?
R	The big one…
I	The big one…
R	The one which goes to the highway.
I2	The big one
R2	The flyover
I	Which goes to highway?
R2	The big one near the highway
R	That’s the No. 1 flyover of the entire Asia region, which they have constructed.
I	Okay
R	And this one is from the British era, Rani Holkarbai was there
I	[inaudible] That’s the Victoria Bridge.
R	Yes, it’s of Victoria’s time. Now, this has also completed after 100 years. Its contract is over now. Now it does not hold any guarantee. By the grace of Lord Shiva, there is no threat to it for another 150 years.
I2	Okay.
R	That’s the difference between adulterated and original. This one has been repaired ten times whereas that one has never required to be repaired.
I2	Okay.
R	because the original is always good.
R2	Okay...then they want to construct it here, they will have arranged for water for the people here.
R	See here, there is no arrangement for water here on this Kund.
R2	Water is not available to people coming from outside.
R	Such a big place has been kept for people to change clothes, but they are not allowed to go there.
R2	They have to open something cheaper for them so that they will be able to eat.
R	We have constructed a place for females to enable them to change their clothes. There are changing rooms there, but females are not allowed to go there for the same.
I	Okay, why?
R	They don’t allow it and have full control over it. You can see right in front of you, the Municipality has constructed a big building which is actually for females to enable them to change their clothes. But instead, something different is happening there.
I	Hmm.
I2	So, with this automatic gate, the flood occurrence will reduce?
R	When the water level will rise, the gate will go up. Water will flow down from below it. When water level reduces…it’s called “svayam chalit”, it's automatic
I2	Automatic.
R	Yes, and this contract has been given to a group from Hyderabad called L&T.
I2	Okay.
R	Its tender is passed. A work order has been generated.
I	Hmm.
I2	Okay.
R	It’s like the water which is flowing because of the floods, if Lord Shiva stops it then we should understand that its work will start.
I	Hmm.
I2	Okay.
R	Flood water is flowing continuously and hence they are not able to do their work.
I	Hmm.
R	The day the water stops, by the grace of Lord Shiva, we can see how much [inaudible 00:11:58]
I	Do you think that this river and ghat area should be used to worship only or can it be used to stroll around, sit, walk around?
R	No. Actually, if we see this as a religious place.
I	Religious place, yes.
R	This is not a tourist destination,
I	It’s not… yes.
R	But a religious place and it should be maintained that way only.
I	That should be the main objective.
R	That is the main objective.
I	Okay.
R	There is Tryambakeshwar here. We call Matheran, Mahabaleshwar as cold places.
I	Hmm.
R	The reason they are called so, because of cold air flows there.
I	Hmm.
R	In Nashik, Rama Kund is a religious place, a sacred place. Wrong things should not take place here.
I	Then the plan of boating, the park should be executed, or no?
R	Yes, it required.
I	It's required.
R	The small kids who come at night for a walk.
I	For them
R	Yes, it's good for them. They come, sit here for entertainment. But the main thing about this place is worship
I	The main thing is worship.
R	Yes, the main thing is worship, and it's required here. This place is perfect for bathing, charity.
I2	What have you heard about the "Smart City" plan to be executed here above the Godavari?
R	They are going to do their good work about “Smart City”. This contract of L&T has been passed during their reign.
I2	Okay. Okay.
R	Before this many have come and left but could do nothing. Things taking place in “Smart City” is the best thing to happen to Nashik.
I2	What is going to happen? First is the automatic gate.
R	Right. They are going to demolish this
I	Yes, concrete.
R	This is the parking zone which they are going to close down in the first place.
I2	Why, okay, they are closing…
R	This is because they are going to keep only one parking zone near the Gadge House Bridge, where all types of vehicles can be parked and from there people can come to Kund.
I	Okay, so it will reduce here.
R	Less means…
I	This means the vehicles will come less this side.
R	Today the crowd is less but if you see actually, there are many vehicles parked here which causes inconvenience to the people to walk around.
I	Okay.
R	This problem will reduce then. People can do puja while sitting here also.
I	Yes
R	The problem will reduce and so this is the reason for parking’s tender for this place to be cancelled. Only one parking will be available and people will come from there to this place.
I	So will be the Manager for that place as well?
R	No, I am the In-Charge of it. I had the tender for it.
I	Okay.
R	I am running this place and have its tender for the last 18 years,
I	Okay.
R	By the grace of Lord Shiva.
I	Okay.
R	Now I do not have the tender for it.
I	Okay.
R	I don’t have it now. My father was an officer in Fire Brigade. Now he is no more.
I	Okay. So, do you feel that you should get back the tender for this?
R	Hmm?
I	Do you want to bring back this tender for you?
R	By the grace of Mother Goddess, I will manage it if I get the tender.
I2	Okay… okay. So, what else is happening in this Smart City here?
R	In Smart City the road, the gate is being taken care of and they are going to colour all the temples here in black as they told us when they visited 2-4 months back.
I2	Black?
I	Painting
R	They are going to apply black colour.
I	Okay. All...
I2	Why so?
R	I have heard like this here. I was with the officers who had come here for the Smarty City project.
I	Okay. Okay…okay.
R	Their car was parked here and they were talking about applying black colour to all the temples here. So, it will look nice in appearance. It will look like the black rock there in front of us. It will give that kind of style to the temples, like the rock style. It should look ancient
R2	Ancient look...
I	[inaudible]
R	They are going to prepare it accordingly.
I2	Okay…okay. So, what kind of conversation takes place between the officials of this Smart City project and…means
I	Like they spoke with you regarding how it should happen
R	The first thing they did was the parking. One person told them that it will be sunny out there. So, how will the people walk from there till here?
I	Hmm.
R	From so far how will old people walk down till here?
I	Hmm.
R	For this, they have thought of spreading a net down here
I2	Okay.
R	So, the people walking down from there do not have to face any inconvenience regarding their feet.
I2	Okay.
R	Old people will also walk.
I	Yes.
R	They come here for the “Dashakriya Program”. I was present when they were speaking about this plan.
I	Okay… okay.
R	So, they said parking will be kept there. People will walk down from there till here. Perform their “ShraddhDaan, PindDaan” and will go back from here itself, so that crowd does not gather here. This area has a lot of traffic problem,
I	Hmm.
R	In this chowk.
I2	Hmm.
R	There are a lot of problems, a lot of big vehicles come here. Actually, if you see this is one way. It is not allowed in this area.
I	Hmm.
R	But still, big vehicles stop here.
I	Yes.
R	Big luxury vehicles from Gujarat, Andhra halt here. So, first, they are going to stop this.
I	Okay.
R	This is their plan.
I2	Hmm.
I	Hmm.
I2	So...
I	Are you willing to tell us your name or…
R	Yes, I am not afraid of anyone.
I2	Okay
I	Okay
R	My name is *** ***
I2	Okay…*** ***
R	Yes. I am not afraid of anyone.
I	We will not disclose it anywhere.
R	No, even if you disclose it doesn’t matter to me.
I2	We will actually use this for research purposes.
R	No worries brother. My name is ***. My real brother was the Mayor of Nashik.
I2	Okay
I	Okay
R	He was the Mayor of Nashik,
I	Okay
R	*** ***. I am his brother. He is my real uncle’s son.
I	Okay
I2	Okay. So, for how many years are you running this store?
R	Oh my God! This store is 50 years old now.
I2	50 years old
R	Yes. It’s a different matter altogether.
I	Okay
I2	Okay
R	A grandmother used to run this store.
I2	Okay
I	Okay
R	My friend *** *** grandmother used to run this store. This store is being run for 50 years now.
I2	Was this being run as a tea store only or anything else also was available here?
R2	No…not only tea.
R	No, previously only tea was sold here. Now Bisleri, cold drink, etc are being sold here.
R2	Previously only tea was sold here.
R	His grandmother used to run this only as a tea stall.
I2	Okay.
R2	Previously tea and biscuits were available here, khari was not available.
I	Okay Parle G.
R	Yes.
R2	Same is called…. No, not Parle G, khari…the big one
I	Okay khari.
R	Khari. Khari...we prepare it from wheat.
R2	It’s prepared from wheat and was sold here.
I	Okay.
R2	Only tea and khari.
R	Actually, these people only have made this place dirty.
I	Hmm.
R	Otherwise, there is no big problem here. And if someone tries to do good, these people suppress that person. Why we should be afraid? Whatever is there is existing.
R2	Yes.
R	Why we should be afraid?
I2	Yes.
I	Hmm.
R	We are all going to die one day. We all have the same features of 2 eyes, 2 feet. Is he God that we need to be afraid of? One should be afraid of God and not human beings. We think like this.
I2	Okay.
R	And if you see in entire Maharashtra or India only 1 tiger out of 1470 is alive and I am that one.
I	[Laughing]
I2	[Laughing] Okay.
R	I am telling you the truth!
I	Yes.
R	I am telling you the truth!
I2	No … no… no
R	I never lie! It's all in front of us.
I	[inaudible] This is what is there.
R	My father has taught me one thing that, speak the truth and be happy and if you lie you will be unhappy! It's better to speak the truth in the first place. No one is killed by speaking the truth. I felt very nice when you asked me about Mother Ganga.	
I2	Yes.
R	She is the Mother.
I2	Yes.
R	When people wash their slippers in it, I feel very bad. People come here from far off places
I2	Yes.
R	to wash off their sins. And where should we go to wash off our sins in spite of us staying here?
I2	Yes right.
R	Isn’t it right?
I	Yes, it’s right.
R	People travel 1000kms and come here to Rama Kund wash off their sins. Right?
I	Hmm
R	Today Ganga is crowded because these people have committed sins and have come here to wash them off.
I	Hmm.
R	So, if we commit sin in spite of staying here, where we should go to wash them off? To Allahabad?
I	Hmm.
I2	That’s right.
R	People should think that they should not wash their slippers in the river. They should not spit in it. They should not throw alcohol bottles in it. Small kids’ bath in it.
I2	Small kids.
R	They get hurt because of the glass pieces there
I2	They get hurt because of the glass pieces there?
R	Someone gets a head injury. This is what we think.
R2	Previously… first of all, the number of people begging here has to reduce
R	The beggars… the poor people
R2	because of them, only the dirt is spreading.
R	They have to shift from here because they spread the maximum filth here.
R2	Because of them, the dirt is spreading here.
R	They are drunkards, take food. Eat the food and throw the leftover in the Mother Ganga.
I	Hmm.
R	This is the worst part happening there.
I	Thank You, Dada!
R	Okay.
R2	[inaudible]
R	Will you have some tea?
I	No ... no.


NI035
I	Where do you get the herbs from?
R	The tribal people collect them from the jungle and give them to us.
I	Okay.
R	And we purchase from them.
I	Okay.
R	Got it?
I	Yes.
R	Old people like us cannot do this, one has to dig very deep to get these herbs. The forest officials restrict the digging activity.
I	Okay.
R	Got it? You have to pay tax for this, and have to pay money to the forest officials.
I	Okay.
I2	How far is it from here?
R	We go to Bhimashankar.
I	Okay, Bhimashankar.
R	Do you know Pachmarhi?
I	Yes, I know Pachmarhi.
R	People from Pachmarhi, [inaudible 00:40], etc provide us with the herbs. We don’t go there.
I	So, you purchase the herbs from them and sell them here.
R	Yes.
I	How many? [inaudible 00:51] Since how many years are you doing this?
R	It’s our traditional business.
I	Okay, it’s your traditional business.
R	Traditional business means that my grandfather, father, great -grandfather, all were in the same business. It’s our family business.
I	Okay.
R	So, I have learned from them. Now I will further transfer the knowledge to my daughter, daughter-in-law and sons.
I	Okay.
R	I will tell them about the use of herbs and where to use them. Got it? Here, there is a big shop where you get ayurvedic medicines. There is a shop called [inaudible 01:24], you get herbs in wholesale there, we get a few things from there too.
I	Okay.
R	That’s a wholesale shop of ayurvedic medicines.  We purchase a few herbs from there and a few things from the tribal people.
I	Okay.
R2	It includes herbs for lower back pain, joint pain, haemorrhoids
R	For piles.
I	Is your daily earning stable or does it vary from day to day?
R	Oh my God!! It varies a lot, sometimes it’s too low to even buy a cup of tea. Sometimes we don’t earn a penny, sometimes we earn up to 400-500 to 1000 rupees.
I	Okay.
R	It depends upon the flow and type of customers. Got it? Sometimes we have customers coming in who have already exhausted all medical options without any success, then they are like, let’s try this. Maybe it will be beneficial.
R2	[inaudible 02:15]. Ladies who don’t have children, have infertility issues also come to us.
R	We provide medicines for this too.  Take the item and offer the coconut to the Ganga River, we do it seven times.
I	Okay.
R	If mother Ganga is happy, then one can get pregnant.
I	Okay.
I2	What are the common illnesses for which the people visit you?
I	Joint pains, piles, haemorrhoids, lower back pain.
I2	And for conceiving a child.
R	If someone doesn’t have children, they place their trust on mother Ganga. We don’t give oral medicines. We just give externally, not to be used on the body.
I	Okay.
I2	Do you have to take a bath in the Ganga river after eating the herb?
I	No, you don’t have to eat it.
R	No, no. Listen, what you have to do is, put the herb on [inaudible 03:14], put a coconut in it then offer haldi-kumkum and then remove it and put it in the Ganga River.
I2	Okay, you don’t have to eat that, right?
R	No, you don’t have to eat it.
I2	Okay.
I	How has the place changed since you started the business? What’s the difference between then and now?
R	Previously, it was the old Ganga.
I	Old Ganga.
R	Can you see that bridge where people are walking? It wasn’t there before.
I	Okay.
R	This bridge wasn’t there before. There was only one small bridge, the one behind.
I	Okay.
R	This construction is almost 22-24 years old, two Kumbh Melas old.
I	Was it the same before?
R	All this was constructed 24 years ago.
I	What’s your opinion on it, are you happy that they constructed it? Is it convenient for you?
R	Yes.
R2	As it has been constructed, they keep the area clean, [inaudible 04;29]
R	People don’t wash clothes there. In the past, it was old. People used to bathe in the river, wash clothes in the river water. Water used to get polluted.
I	Do you think they pay more attention to cleaning now?
R	Yes, they clean it frequently now.
I	Okay.
R3	Now they don’t allow washing activities here at all, you can’t even wash a handkerchief here. If you want to take a bath, you have to bathe without soap.
I2	Okay.
R3	Now they clean the area frequently.
I	Okay, they clean it frequently. Sorry, you were going to ask something.
I2	A few people are saying that the Kund got closed due to concretisation.
R2	Yes, it got closed. There were 5 kunds there. and all of them got closed
R3	In the corner.
I2	Okay.
I	How many were there?
R	what?
I2	How many kunds were there?
R	There were five kunds there.
I	Okay, 5 kunds were there.
R2	Ahilyabai Kund [inaudible 05:18]
R	It’s called Patal Kund.
I	Okay.
R	Patal kund. No one can guess this.
I	Okay, okay.
R2	[inaudible 05:25]. The kund was very simple in the past, it was made up of rocks.
R	Even if they had covered it with concrete, the kund got uncovered. They tried to cover it with stones, concrete, but when the flood came, all got washed away.
R2	The water level rose till there, the water ran over it.
R	It is called Kund release.
R2	This time the water had run over it.
I	Means the water entered the houses.
R	Oh my God! The water had flown over this bathroom.
I	Oh, okay.
R	It’s [inaudible] it got washed away. The water level was that high.
I2	What’s the cause of these frequent floods?
R	Rain
I2	But some people say that….
R	Where are you from?
I2	I am from Bangalore.
R	Bangalore, Mysore.
I2	Some people say that the floods are caused due to the closure of the kunds. closed.
R	The kunds have been released due to floods.
I	Okay.
R2	Yes, due to the floods.
I	Seeta kund
R2	Lakshman kund.
R	Lakshman kund.
R2	[inaudible 06:35] Bajrang kund and there were several other kunds here.
I	The scenic beauty of this place…
R	It’s still retained.
I	Is it beautiful?
R	Before…
R2	Have you ever been here?
I	I have been visiting this place for the last few months. I have never visited the place during Kumbh.
R	Haven’t you seen it? Before the concrete wasn’t here, there was only soil.
I	Okay, soil was there.
R	People used to get stuck in the soil and their bodies used to float on water after three days.
I	Okay.
R	After concrete construction, no one sinks in the water. He goes with the flow of the water and then people save him. Earlier, people used to sink and die. Now if someone is sinking, people save them, whatever the water level may be.
I	It looks nice too.
R	Yeah, it looks nice now. Before my marriage, when I was around 12-15 years old, I saw the fifth Kumbh.
I	Okay, you have seen five Kumbhs.
R	God save us now! I am 66 years old now, I won’t be able to see the next Kumbh. It’s destiny whether I will be able to see the next Kumbh or not.
I	You will definitely be able to see it.
R2	Young people are dying, we are quite old.
I	What else can be done to make this place more beautiful? What would you like to see?
R	We cannot expect anything now, only those things will be implemented which members want, which the politicians wish for. Whom shall we narrate this to? The Government gave us small shops.
I	Okay. Where? Here?
R2	[inaudible]
I	Okay, then?
R	We got these small shops. All got washed away in the flood. Again, we are sitting on the footpath, we don’t have any choice. Nothing will be spared by the flood.
I	Due to floods.
R2	[inaudible]
R	Nothing will be spared. One day, it will definitely be washed away. Can you see that small shop? He takes it off before the rainy season.
I	Okay.
R	Once the flood goes off, then he sets up the shop again, for eight months.
I2	How many people here sell herbs?
R	Around 100-200.
I2	You sell herbs all-round the year?
R	Yes.
I	They come here daily.
R	The Government has given us houses.
R2	The Government constructed the houses for us.
R	Flood victims, got it? Before our houses were here.
I	Okay.
R	On the banks of the Ganga River.
I2	Okay.
R	During the flood, we ran away and our houses were washed away. Everything in the house also got washed away. Then the Government gave houses, which are around 2 km away from here.
I2	They gave you a house?
I	What is that place called where you live now?
R	Masrud.
I	Okay, Masrud.
R3	Houses have been provided in that area.
I2	Have you ever spoken to the people working on the smart city project? Have you heard about smart city?
R	No, no. You are the first one to record the interview, otherwise we don’t allow it.
I2	Okay.
R	Don’t allow it?
I	Does anyone ask you about your views, what you want?
R	No. Many people come to ask, but we don’t reply.
I	Okay, you don’t reply.
R	God is great, one cannot take wealth with oneself after death. In bigger societies, no one comes to help out. We are happy and contented here on the banks of the Ganga River, the Godavari River. We don’t want anything else.
I	Thank you, sister.


NI036
I	Let’s start with your name.
R	My name is *** ***.
I	Okay. Since when do you sit here?
R	This is our third generation.
I	Okay.
I2	So, since approx. 50-60 years.
R	Yes, the market has existed for 50-60 years. It is a weekly market. It is held once a week.
I2	Okay.
I	It is not held daily.
I	So, it is held here after eight days.
R	After eight days, the market is held.
I	So, how many of you sit here in all?
R	There are a minimum of 10-12 dry fish shops here.
I2	Do all belong to the same place?
R	Yes, we are from the same community/relation.
I2	Same community. Where do you come from?
R	We come from Nashik city.
I	Where do you get the fish from?
R	The fish comes from Mumbai.
I2	Do you dry it at home?
I	No, it is dried in Mumbai. They dry it by hanging the fish on bamboo.
I2	Okay.
I	Do you get it from there?
R	There is a market at Andheri where all the dry fish comes from. All the traders purchase it from there.
I	And on every 8th day, we put up a stall here.
R	Every 8 days, the market is held at different places, on Wednesday at Nashik, on Thursday at Girnar market, on Monday at Deolali Camp, after that on Sunday at Camp, on Tuesday it is at Bhabur market.
I	Okay, this means that you put up the stall at different places.
R	Yes, it is put up at different places.
I	When you came here for the first time, what did the Godavari River look like? Do you remember?
R	The Godavari River was very small. It was not so big as it is now, and smaller than this.
I	Smaller than this?
R	You can see cement here, in the past, it was all soil here.
I	Okay. So, was it better before or now, the concrete one?
R	Concrete is better. Previously it was very polluted, it was full of litter due to flowers, carry bags etc.
I	So, has it reduced after the concrete construction?
R	Yes, it has reduced because the entire water flows down, and so people don’t litter it.
I	How’s the quality of the river as compared to the days when you first came here?
R	In the past, the water was clean. Now they dispose drainage water into it, so the river has become more polluted now. Now when the dam water is released, the quality of the river improves, but then it gets polluted with the drainage water, and the water remains polluted for around eight days. The water is not fit for bathing. And in spite of this, outsiders drink it as holy water. Some people carry it to their native places, some wash their clothes, utensils etc. in it.
I	So, what can be done to make this water clean?
R	If the water remains stagnant, then it will remain polluted; if the water keeps flowing, then the quality of the water will improve. Stagnant water needs regular cleaning.
I	Okay.
R	The municipal corporation had appointed security guards here, but they were hardly there for three months after which they never came back. They used to stop people from washing cars and things like that, throwing flowers or littering in it. They used to keep the river clean. As the workers from the municipal corporation stopped coming, the cleaning process too stopped.
I	The smart city project includes a plan of beautification, what’s your opinion about it?
R	It’s good. It’s good for everyone.
I	Can one make it more beautiful?
R	Yes, why not? It’s good for everyone.
I2	How, in your opinion, can the scenic beauty of this place be improved?
R	There should be a garden in this area, the number of shops should decrease.
I2	Okay.
R	More tourists should visit here. Tomorrow, the entire area will be packed with vehicles, here, on the opposite side.
I	Does it create problems?
R	Of course, it’s problematic. Tourists don’t know anything, they don’t know where Ram kund or the temple of lord Rama is. They just keep moving and park the vehicle anywhere.
I	So, there should be a specific parking area?
R	Yes, there should be a specific parking area. They should have big banners to direct the people to various places like Ram Kund, temple of Lord Rama, Kapaleshwar. Here, you will not find road direction boards.  Outsiders keep asking for directions to the Ram Kund, the Kala Ram temple.
I	We have been told that there were a few kunds here, can you tell us about that? Can you please tell us what kund exactly is?
R	Ram kund is the main kund, it’s called Ram kund because as per mythology, a drop of amrit (the divine syrup) fell in it. Then there is another one called Gauri kund, there is Gautami kund. All these are around the Ram kund.
I2	We have heard that there were many kunds which were destroyed due to the concrete constructions.
R	Yes, they were destroyed.
I2	Can you please share some information about it?
R	I don’t know much about it. The big and powerful people know about it. Why did they destroy it? They did it to widen the river bed.
I2	Okay.
I	Have you been here during the Kumbh mela?
R	Yes, I have been to the Kumbh mela.
I	What’s the scenario like?
R	We never put up a stall in the Kumbh mela. No shops opened here, it’s all closed then.
I	So, no shops are installed?
R	No shops are installed.
I2	Since the time you have been here, what do you feel, was it better in the past or is it better now?
R	It’s better now. The roads have widened, but the people are not getting the facilities they need.
I2	Okay.
R	There is no water for visitors to take a bath in the river. If there is water in the river, then people can take a bath in it, they can drink the holy water. Visitors who come when the water is released from the dam, have an impression that the river has abundant water, but the situation changes in 5-15 days. The tourists visiting then, think that the river has no water. So, the situation varies depending on the time when tourists visit the place. There are times when the water is from the dam, but the water you can see now is not safe for bathing.
I2	It seems like there was a flood recently.
R	Yes, we were here when the flood hit the place, it was raining heavily then and the level of the river water had risen till here.
I2	Oh! Till here?
R	Then there is a place called Vagadi, the water there was coming out of the drainage chamber.
I	Have the intensity and frequency of the floods increased?
R	It was the same in the past as well. As the river bed has widened, the intensity of the flood has increased. In the recent floods in Nashik, this temple was half- immersed under the water.
I2	Okay.
R	This is the intensity of the floods here. The water touches the bridge.
I	How many traders are there around the Godavari River in Nashik?
R	There are around 200-250 shops. Previously, there was a vegetable market on the opposite side, the corporation encroached upon it. They have provided a place to put up the stalls, but they don’t sit there, they put up their stalls randomly anywhere.
I	[inaudible 08:01] You mean the fruit sellers?
R	It was a huge vegetable market, so they removed it from there. Now no one sits there near the market.
I	It was nice talking to you.
R	You are welcome.
I	Who comes to purchase the fish from you?
R	The local people come to us, who don’t have much money. The rich people prefer fresh fish. Mostly, it is the labour class who come to purchase the fish.
I	They come to purchase the dry fish.
R	You can store it for a few weeks or 3-4 months.
I	Can you store it?
R	You can stock it and use it as required, unlike fresh fish, mutton, chicken which you have to consume immediately.
I	Thanks a lot!
R	You are welcome.
I2	Thank you.
R	Where did you come from?


NI038
R	This is called Ram Ghat. The next kund is known as Lakshman kund. These smaller kunds are made for public/people to bathe during the Maha Pushparaj Kumbh which is held after every 12 years. The shahi snan (royal bath) takes place at Ram Ghat, where saints bathe.
I	Okay.
R	There is the Triveni Sangam (confluence). The others are for public use.
I	Okay.
R	Around 2 crore people visit during that period. All these are made in the ancient time. It is difficult to come here. People come here from different parts of the world.
R2	Don’t put your footwear there. Remove your shoes outside.
R	Because of local public [inaudible 00:41]
R2	Remove the shoes here and then go.
I	Do you work as a guide here?
R	I work as a guide and I also drive an auto rickshaw. I give rides to the people and provide them with information about various places.
I	Can we record the interview?
R	Yes, you can.
R2	If someone is doing good work, we don’t object to it.
R	People come from far and wide to see Ram ji’s story.
I	So, what’s the story of Lord Rama’s life here?
R	If you visit various places, you will realize what the story is.
I	Okay.
R	There are a total 11 points of interest.
I	Okay.
R	We take them to these 11 places.
I	Okay.
R	You have to ride in an autorickshaw, there is no parking lot in here [inaudible 01:13] or else, you have to hire a small vehicle. We tell them the history of each place and then drop them here.
I2	What’s the history behind the kunds? How many kunds were there?
R	108 kunds were there.
I2	Okay, 108 kunds were there.
I	How old are these kunds?
R2	They have been there since the time before we were born. Our grandparents narrate stories about it.
R	The stories we tell are based on Lord Rama’s 14 years of exile here.
R2	Lord Rama was in exile for 14 years?
R	We have heard these stories from our ancestors. [01:49] These stories are around 1000 years old.
I	Okay.
R	Even a priest will narrate the same story. We tell the same stories to visitors who come here.
R2	Here, Lord Rama reinstated Lord Shiva here.
R	This temple of Lord Shiva is 350 years old and it is famous by the name of Naroshankar. It has a bell on it which weighs 750 kg. Chimaji Appa won the war against the British and seized two bells, one of which is placed here and the other is at Bhimashankar, Pune. When the flood water reaches till the level of the bell, the bell rings and automatically, people get an alert. When the water touches, the bell rings. The temple is 350 years old.
R2	The temple is ancient. The shivling was placed by Lord Rama.
R	The flood water doesn’t enter the city.  On the other side of the river, it’s the city area. That side of the river is called Nashik and this side is called Panchwati.
I2	Okay, so Nashik is on that side.
R	The history goes that Lakshman cut Shurpanakha’s nose and threw it on that side. That’s why that side is called Nashik as the nose means Nasika in Sanskrit.
I2	Okay.
R	That’s why that side is called Nashik and this side is called Panchwati. This is the mythological story behind it.
I2	Okay. What would you like to say about the concrete slab they have constructed here?
R	In a way, it’s good that they constructed the concrete slab, it doesn’t get too dirty.
I2	[inaudible 03:18]
R	In the past, it was quite muddy.
R2	It used to be muddy.
R	Now as they have put the slab…
R2	…there is no mud there.
R	It was muddy before. In the past, if you put your legs in the water, you would feel the mud. It’s good that it has become plain now.
I2	But due to this, the kund has covered a little bit.
R	The Kunds were constructed accordingly. Each time, the number of visitors to the Maha Pushparaj is increasing. But the grants are also received accordingly from the central government. They keep working on the kund, implementing new ideas.
I	Keep renovating it.
R	There is a difference between the old kunds and the kunds you are seeing now. In the past, the number of visitors was also less, but now the number of visitors has also increased.
I	It has increased.
R2	A huge number of people come.
R	Otherwise, no vehicles come here.
R2	At the time of shahi snan (royal bath), the vehicles have to be parked at 20-25 km from here.
R	Now the vehicles don’t come here.
R2	From there, people walked down.
R	From there, you have to take the government city bus, otherwise you have to walk down.
R2	Even autorickshaws don’t run then.
R	[inaudible 04:10]
I2	Can you tell me something about the Goda Park?
R	The Goda park was built when Raj Thackeray was in power at the corporation. It was really nice. People used to go there for jogging, but it was his bad luck that it got washed away in flood.
I	Okay.
R	It got washed out.
R2	Otherwise, it was very nice.
R	Along with the Goda park, the pelican garden was also built, sorry the botanical garden.
I	Okay.
R	It is situated on the Bombay Road, around 12-13 km from here. People visit it, it falls under the corporation.
I	So, do you think they should renovate it as part of the smart city project?
R2	Of course, it should be renovated, but we cannot predict the rains.
I	So, the location is not correct.
R2	If it rains heavily, it will surely wash away.
I	Okay.
R2	Because you cannot stop the flow of water. It’s not in anyone’s hand. The water level will increase if it rains heavily, if the water level increases, then it will get damaged. They should think in a different way about this. It was a waste of money to rebuild it.
I2	So, what can one do here as a part of the smart city project?
R	This area can be utilised for parking.
I	They can build a parking lot here.
R	[inaudible 05:57] the parking will be on the banks of the river. [inaudible 06:02] tourists have increased, so the parking area should also be increased. So, there will be more stalls. On Wednesday, the fish traders put up their stalls here. You know, the stalls are put up for a day, but it creates a lot of litter.
R2	A market is held here. The market should not be held here.
R	The fish traders sit on the bank of the river.
R2	The fish traders that sit here should be banned.
R	Next day the area stinks a lot, garbage is thrown here. The purity of the river is not retained.
R2	Is not retained?
R	People who are coming from far away should get pure holy water. The corporation is also trying to do something, but people keep fighting.
R2	Most of the people here fight a lot.
I	Okay.
R2	If we tell them not to take water from here, they start fighting as if they have been putting up their stalls for a long time.
R	It’s not possible to remove them so easily. They have made a lot of efforts; they have built a market.
R2	The corporation has built a market for them, but no one sits there.
R	It has been specifically built for them, but they don’t go there as they are used to sitting here.
R2	No one sits there.
R	We cannot say anything to them. We are common people. Their earning depends on this work, so we cannot say anything nor can anyone pressurize them. It is their source of income. The market is held here only for a day, so no one can pressurize them. If we try to pressurize them, they will protest.
R2	There will be fights. The officials tell them to put something like plastic below their baskets and then put up the stalls. They don’t listen.
R	The situation is better now. You can see that it is a lot cleaner now. The situation two years back was different.
R2	They used to put it inside.
R	The security person on duty has to keep a continuous watch on them. If we go for lunch then we have to inform someone and then go. We cannot leave the place unattended to. Previously, the water was very polluted with flowers, litter, etc. He has been living here for many years, he knows it very well. But we don’t stay here the whole day. We go home after our duty is over. Before we were deployed, it was very dirty. Everyone used to throw flowers in it. Previously, it was like a laundry bay.
R2	The situation has changed since they have put the kalash on the banks. They used to donate at the time of Ganapati idols immersion in water.
R	Most of the Ganapati idols are not immersed in water. They donate them.
R2	They donate them, they don’t immerse them in the river. 95% of people don’t immerse them in water.
R	A couple of days after the Ganapati immersion, you will see broken idols lying here and there.
R2	The idols are disgraced in this way. Now you can hardly see this practice.
R	There are a few people who still practice this, but the number has reduced now. So now they donate it and get some money.
I2	What’s your view on the smart city project going on in Nashik?
R	Smart city is a good project and it should be made at every place. With the smart city project, everything will be online like payments and all, but the problem is that most of the common man like us are illiterate, so it will be a bit tough for us to manage. As all payments will be online in the smart city, the people belonging to the lower category will suffer. It won’t be a problem for educated people, it’s good for them, as they can do the payments online with their mobile phone, but for others, it will be tough. These are low class people. If you visit here in the evenings, you will see poor people here, they don’t have shelter. They sleep outside, they should be provided with shelters. [inaudible10:41]. What can be done? They get the food for free, where will they go, what will they do?
I2	Okay. Thank you very much.  It was nice talking to both of you.
I	Thank you.


NI039
I	Brother, let’s start with your name.
R	*** ***.
I	Okay. Since when have you been working here?
R	It’s been 25 years that I started working here.
I	Okay. What do you do?
R	I run a general store.
I	So, you have set up your shop here along the Godavari Ghat for the past 25 years?
R	Yes.
I	Okay. What does the river look like in the past?
R	It was very clean in the past. Now it has become dirty.
I	Why has it become dirty?
R	The drainage water gets mixed in the Ram Kund.
I2	Has there been any improvement since the security people got employed here?
R	There are minor improvements now. No one washes clothes here anymore and people don’t use soap anymore.
I2	So, everything is fine now?
R	Yeah, it’s better now. They should focus on drainage lines now.
I2	Okay.
R	Before commencing with the smart city project, they should first work on the drainage lines. Even when it rains a bit, the drainage water gets mixed into the river.
I2	Okay.
R	This should be done on priority.
I2	I have heard that this concrete did not exist before.
R	Yes, it wasn’t there before. It was previously made of rocks.
I2	When was it constructed?
R	During the time of last Kumbh Mela.
I2	During the time of last Kumbh Mela.
R	It has been almost 25 years.
I2	That….
R	It causes flood into the houses that are on the banks of the river. It has also stopped the water from the natural springs at the bottom.
I2	It has blocked it. We have heard about kund too.
R	Yes, this kund was destroyed during the Kumbh.
I2	Okay. So, you know about the kund since childhood.
R	Yes.
I2	Please tells us something about the kund.
R	All kunds were given different names.
I2	Okay. How many were there in total?
R	They have been there since ancient times.
I2	Okay. How many were there in total?
R	About 8-10 kunds were there, all with different names.
I2	There were eight.
I	And was there a water source at their bottoms?
R	Yes.
I2	But now due to concrete, it has got blocked.
R	Yes, got blocked.
I2	Okay. So, what do you feel about it, should they be removed?
R	They have now gotten the permission to remove the concrete.
I2	Okay.
R	But the work has not started yet.
I2	Okay. Do you think they should do it?
R	Yes, it must be done. It will improve the quality of the water.
I2	So, in your opinion, was it a good decision to put concrete slabs here?
R	No, the condition worsened.
I2	Okay.
R	It destroyed the beauty of the Ganga River that was made with stones.
I2	Okay.
R	It’s very hot here due to the concrete.
I2	It’s very hot.  In your view, what can be done to beautify the ghat (river passage)?
R	More improvement is needed. They should make some provisions so that the drainage water will not get mixed into the river.
I	How about constructing a park here?
R	The park will get washed away by the floods. [inaudible 03:02] had planted coconut trees here, they spent lakhs on it, but all got washed away in the floods.
I	Okay, from Goda Park?
R	Yes, from Goda Park. All of that got washed away.
I	Okay. What have you heard about the smart city? What are their plans for the Godavari River?
R	The first point that should consider under the smart city project is cleanliness. That’s priority.
I	Okay. How many traders are here at the Goda Ghat?
R	There are many shops on the banks of the Ganga, around 50-100.
I	Traders?
R	Yes. That’s it?
I	Okay. Thank you.


NI040
I	Let’s start with your name.
R	Just a minute… [inaudible 00:04]
I	What’s your name?
R	My name is *** ***.
I	*** ***, right? Since when have you been here?
R	My parents used to sit here in the past. And it’s the same place where they used to sit.
I	Okay.
R	The Godavari River was different in the past.
I	Okay.
R	People have worked on high line areas only, but not on the low line areas.
I	Okay.
R	It has been almost 17-18 years since they did it. My parents used to sit here previously.
I	Okay. So, what do you do?
R	We sell herbs.
I	Is this your traditional business?
R	Yes, it’s traditional.
I	Okay.
R	It’s our traditional business.
I	Okay. How many herb traders are here in this area?
R	At least 40-50 shops should be there.
I	Okay. And all of you belong to the same community?
R	We all belong to the same community.
I	Which community?
R	Tribal, Thakur.
I	Tribal, Thakur. Okay.
R	Gond community.
I	Okay, so you belong to the Gond community. What are the illnesses for which people come to you, such as stomach ache, or anything else?
R	They come here for multiple issues like lower back pain, joint pain, bloating, acidity, diabetes, blood pressure, sugar, asthma etc.
I	Okay. For any issue. So, you all belong to the Gond community?
R	Yes. Gond community.
I	How did the Godavari River look like in your early days?
R	It was old style. I still remember, it was very old. We have seen all these new developments happening in these years. There was no concrete in the past. There were rocks. There were four more temples. They removed those and made the area plain.
I	Why?
R	As it was broken. The topmost part of the temple wasn’t there. So, they flattened it. Back then, there were multiple small kunds.  Now they have joined all of them and made a single kund, and it’s called Ram Kund.
I	Okay, and in the past, there were multiple small kunds, right?
R	Yes. They had different names like Seeta Kund, Lakshman kund, Hanuman kund. There were small kunds.
I	Okay.
R	At the time of the Kumbh Mela a few years back, they broke all smaller kunds and constructed a single kund.
I	Joined them to form a single one, right?
R	Because the people visiting here face issues, they don’t know the depth of the kund; there are chances that anyone can lose their life. So, they constructed a single kund.
I	Constructed a single kund. What’s the history behind these kunds?
R	Each kund was dedicated to a different God.
I	Okay.
R	Can you see the people standing there? Ram kund was there.
I	Okay.
R	Then a bit on the lower side, there was the Seeta kund.
I	Okay.
R	Somewhat on the upper side, there was the Lakshman kund.
I	Okay.
R	Here, opposite to Hanuman, there was the Hanuman kund.
I	Okay. Does fresh water come from all these kunds?
R	It’s all the same water.
I	Okay.
R	The same water which comes from the higher areas.
I	What’s your view on the concrete which is built here? Was it a good idea?
R	In a way, it’s good, but some people are saying they have plans to remove it. They are going to redo it like olden days. It’s up to them.
	(not part of this conversation)
I	What’s your view on the concrete which is built here? Was it a good idea?
R	Politicians are of the opinion that it should be removed. They want to make it like in the olden days. Because water flows from the springs at the bottom. It is alive. People buried it under the concrete.
I	Oh okay, they buried the live river.
R	Still water comes out from there.
I	Have the floods increased now or was the situation the same before?
R	Floods depend upon the rain. The more it rains, the more it floods. This year, the situation was the same as in 2016. Can you see that building? This time, the water level has reached there.
I	Okay.
R	The same has happened 3-4 times.
I	3-4 times, right?
R	When it rains in the higher areas, the water level increases again. Have you heard about Trimbakeshwar?
I	Yes.
R	If it rains heavily there, the water level goes up. Even now, they release the water for couple of hours.
I	What are your views regarding the beautification and building of a park in this area under the smart city project?
R	If that’s to be done, all this needs to be removed.
I	What needs to be removed?
R	Our shops.
I	Okay. Has anyone ever tried to get you out of here?
R	No, not until now.
I	Okay.
R	But if they make it a smart city, nothing will be left here. Only the visitors will come. No shops will be allowed.
I	Why do you think so?
R	They say so.
I2	But if you people are not here, anyways the number of visitors will decrease.
R	Yes, fewer people will come here.
I2	Then, maybe they can make some arrangements for you.
R	If encroachment takes place someday, you won’t see much activity in this area. You will only see people wandering here and there. But it doesn’t look good.
I	Okay.
R	If there are shops, the area looks nice.
I	It looks nice.
R	You can see the parking? There was a vegetable market before. You can see the shops there as Wednesday is the weekly market day. From tomorrow, you won’t see any shops here.
I	Okay.
R	They removed the market before the Kumbh Mela.
I	They have given another place to put up their stalls.
R	They have been told to sit again after the Kumbh Mela.
I	Okay.
R	But later, they never allowed them to put up the stalls.
I	They didn’t allow them to sit.
R	[inaudible 06:49]
I	They are on the streets.
R	They have a lot of land and they have spent all their life here.
I	Okay.
R	But people are not allowing them to sit here.
I	Okay.
R	That’s why they are not leaving their places on the streets. They have provided them with a market, but they don’t go there.
I	Why don’t they go there?
R	They feel that they will not get customers there.
I	By climbing up there?
R	Yes. That’s what they think.
I	Have all been provided with shops there?
R	To the Vegetable vendors.
I	Shops were provided to vegetable vendors. Do you have any union of the people selling herbs or is there any head of your business or is everyone independent?
R	We are all together, but we don’t have any union.
I2	Do you have a Sarpanch?
I	Do you have a Sarpanch?
I2	Who is the Sarpanch?
R	He sits down the road with us.
I	What’s his name?
R	He is Afang and he lives on a cycle.
I	We heard, but couldn’t see it. Is it behind the temple?
R	You can meet him there, under the bridge.
I	Oh okay, under the bridge. This first one?
R	Under the bigger bridge, he sits there.
I	Okay.
R	Near the ground.
I	If you have any problems, do you approach him?
R	Yes, we do.
I	What does this mean?
R	If we have any problems, we discuss them with him.
I	Okay. But no one ever asked you to leave?
R	No.
I	Okay. Thank you very much. It was nice talking to you. We are taking this interview just for research purposes. Okay?
R	No problem.


NI042
R	Who does not do wrong, will not be afraid.	
I	Please tell me from the beginning, how many people are you?	
R	Here, there are 650 people. According to history, this market has been here for 200 years. There is a book named, “Nashik District Gazette” written in 1880. All the details are mentioned in it.
I	About this market?	
R	Yes. Around 650 sellers are over here, many people are dependent on these sellers, like their families and many others.	
I	Right.	
R	Here is the huge “Kumbh Mela” of Nashik, and as it is held near the river, this is the festival of our city, so we have to leave our places. And at that time, we leave and we do not set up our shops for almost a month. This same has happened once or twice before, but the last time, this corporation did not allow us here.	
I	When was the last Kumbh?  2002 or 2003?	
R	No, it was not 2002-2003, it was 2015.  And from that time, they have not allowed us here.
I	Okay.
R	Therefore, our court matter is ongoing. Actually, this place does not belong to the corporation. So, if the place is not theirs, then they do not have any rights.
I	Then whose place is this?
R	This place is of Punjab Government.
I	How did this happen?
R	In 1941, The Punjab Government bought this place for the people of their state, who used to come here to visit this Mela.
I	Okay.
R	Yes, and it is not the corporation’s place. So, we don’t understand why they do this just for the sake of development, you can’t kill people. There is no point in developing the city and killing half of the people living here. There is no benefit of such development. Just to develop the city and kill people here by hunger is just unfair. You are just developing the city, and undeveloping the people. Here, there are nearly 650 people, mostly ladies, who are more than 50 years old. Among them, some are widows, some are independent, etc. But we all live together here. We are bounded by love. So, it helps their livelihood. We have been living like this here. Now, we will act according to the outcome of the case.
I2	So, who filed this case? The corporation?
R	No, we filed it.
I2	Alright. When did you file for it?
R	In 2005
I2	Okay…in 2005. It's been 10-15 years now. What can you say about that now?
R	It’s a court matter. You just can’t tell when and what will happen.
I2	Okay. So, now is it going on?
R	Yes, it is going on.
I	Alright. They said there was some court’s stay order and then municipality again…
R	Yes, it was a stay, but then they removed it last time. But the case is still on.
I2	So, when do you have to visit the court?
R	Whenever the date is given, we have to go. Even today is the date.
I	Alright, so today is also the date. Did you go today then?
R	Yes, our other people will go.
I	So, what is the name of your body and this market?
R	“Gangamaai Bhaajibazaar Mitramandal”
I	Okay. So have you all come from the same place?
R	Yes. All are shopkeepers here.
I	Alright.
R	All are businessmen.
I	Alright. Are all locals here?
R	Yes, all are locals, no other people.
I2	Where did they make this parking here?
R	This is not a parking area. This place was lying empty, so people used to park their vehicles here. No one charges fees here for the parking.
I	Okay.
R	It is not parking, parking without pay. Just an empty place where people park their vehicles for free.
I2	So, this is the Gangamaai Market?
R	Yes. “Gangamaai Bhaajibazaar Mitramandal”.
I2	So, when did you come here to “Goda Ghat”?
R	From the beginning?
I2	Yes.
R	It’s been 30 years.
I2	Okay. So, you are here for 30 years.
R	Yes. 30 years.
I2	So, how was the river at that time?
R	It was not bound by that time. These Ghats were not there. It was kind of old.
I2	Like what? Of Stones?
R	Yes, made of stones.
I2	So, which one is better?
R	That was better.
I2	And why was it better?
R	Because that was natural. And whatever is natural is more beautiful than artificial.
I2	Okay.
R	When there were stones, waterfalls flowed beneath the stones. As they have concreted it now, the waterfalls have finished.
I2	So, they should not have done the concretisation?
R	No.
I	As we have heard, they are planning on removing all the concrete. Will that be nice?
R	Yes. They have a plan, but, when will they work on it? When will that happen?
I	According to you, should they do this?
R	Yes, this should be done. It would be nice if the waterfalls would flow again beneath the stones. It will feel good.
I2	What have you heard about the smart city? What all shall be made at Godavari under the smart city?
R	I don’t know anything about it.
I2	So, the corporation team didn’t tell you anything about it?
R	No, they did not tell anything. 
I	Okay. According to you, what should happen here? What should be done here with this place?
R	This is the only right place for those people who are running their livelihood by trading here. Something must be done for them. 
I2	So, this shall be kept as a market?
R	Yes.
I2	Should there be any beautifications here like, Parks or any other?
R	This is not the right place for the park. It Floods here always. They will spend on this park and it will all go to waste. This is not the place worthy of a park. Half of this building was in the water.
I	Yes, we heard about it. So, what do you wish for? Should they let you run your shop here or...?
R	We just want that, for everyone who lives here, their livelihood should keep on running.
I	Does that mean you want security?
R	We do our security ourselves. We don’t need anyone.
I	Alright. Do you get any help from the Municipal Corporator?
R	Yes, we get it from time to time, whenever we ask for help, they help us.
I	Alright. Can you please give us your phone number?
I2	And we are recording this just for our research and our writings. We won’t give it to anyone.
R	Give it to anybody. I don’t care. I am the one who has fought with the CM for this, not for myself. When he was there, what was his name, Shinde, yes Sushil Kumar Shinde, CM CM. I have fought with Sushilkumar Shinde- CM about this. We can fight anywhere for the truth.
I2	Did you give the letter?
R	Yes, we have given letters to the PM also.
I2	Alright.
R	We have our people everywhere.


NI045
I	What is your name?
R	*** ***.
I	Okay. Since when have you been running your shop here?
R	For 20 years I was running my shop here, then for a while, I went somewhere else and now again I have set my shop here.
I	How many years has it been for you to set up your shop at Goda Ghat?
R	It’s been more than 25 years here.
I	What do you sell here?
R	At this time, I have set up a shop for Readymade. Sometimes it is cutlery and the business keeps on changing. It depends upon the situation. I used to sell cutlery before.
I	What happened to that? Not many people have set cutlery shops here.
R	My friend has set up a cutlery shop there.
I	Okay, so he has set it up?
R	Yes. Now we are selling clothes.
I	Mostly who are the customers here? The travellers?
R	Yes, travellers do come here. But, mostly that region of “Kala Ram Mandir” gets more travellers as customers.
I	When you first came here, how was this Godavari River?
R	It was not the same when I first came here. It was open. Now they have made it of Cement and concrete. The bed of the river is now made plain with cement and concrete. It was plain before. Previously, the river was like a ‘river’.
I	So, was that good, or this is good?
R	That was good. Water used to go into the soil then. As it is made up of cement and concrete now, it doesn’t happen so. Now, it easily gets flooded here. In this month, it flooded 2-3 times already.
I	Does the flood come over the bridge?
R	Yes, water comes over the bridge too. So they have put it up recently. See all these are broken here.
I	Okay. So, since when have you been sitting here on the bridge?
R	It was a small bridge earlier, like this. Then, it was expanded by constructing a new bridge beside this.
I	Okay, so earlier it was a smaller bridge?
R	Yes, and now they have a bigger bridge. Earlier it was a single small bridge, and now they constructed a bigger bridge beside it.
I	Okay. Some traders have told us that some people from the Municipal Corporation come to move you from here?
R	Yes, sometimes they do come.
I	Then what do you people do?
R	Team of encroachers does come here, but they do not bother us much, as the traffic is less here. So if they come then they tell us to remove our items/stuff.
I	So, do you move your stuff then?
R	Such a thing happens very rarely, by chance. But if it happens, they order us to move our stuff.
I	So, have you got any street vendor cards?
R	No.
I	The card you get as a license after the survey?
R	No, I have not gotten it yet. But I have got my name is written there, where I used to set up my shop before, so I don’t have a license yet, but I am going to get one soon.
I	Okay. So you used to sell in that market there?
R	Yes, near the “Indrakund pool”.
I	Okay, so you used to set up there?
R	Yes.
I	So, have you heard about some work going on under the smart city?
R	No, I don’t know about that.
I	Anything about removing the concrete?
R	Yes, I have heard that they are going to dig it and make it like it used to be before.
I	Okay. Do you think there should be beautification here? What should be done here on the “Goda ghat”, according to you?
R	The Pilgrims who come from outside should be facilitated, they should get water, there should be cleanliness.
I	So, these facilities should be given according to you?
R	Yes.
I	Alright.
I2	What facilities do you think you should get?
I	What facilities do you think the business who sit here should get?
R	Instead of throwing us out and moving us away, they should make some stalls for us or anything, which will let us do our business. We used to keep Goods in our shop which were swept away in the flood.
I	Okay, so all of these were washed away?
R	As you can see these new shops being built, they have been swept away in the floods too.
I2	Aright. Have you been given any place in the new market complex that has been constructed there?
R	No. that market was made for the vegetable vendors. But they did not move there. They filed a case and the Municipal Corporation won it and now they are not giving it back to the vegetable vendor. So, now the place will be sold through the ‘lilau padhaati’.
I	Lalilau?
R	Lilau padhaati. It will be sold by this process now.
I	Okay, auction. Which is that Vegetable market?
R	It’s “Gangamaai bhaaji market”
I	Gangamaai bhaaji market. Okay. So, the market fills up here on Wednesdays, doesn’t it?
R	Yes, the Wednesday market is filled here. People from outstations come and set up shops here.
I	Aright. Thank you, it was very nice talking with you.
R	Okay. Thank you.


NI052
I	So, first of all, tell me your name.
R	My name is *** ***.
I	How many years you’ve been over here?
R	I have been setting up my shop for about 30 years.
I	Please tell me the history of this market, and what is the name of this market?
R	"Gangamai Bhajibazar Mitra Mandal" is the name we have given to it. People of the union are all over here. They have been sitting here for 12 years and now they have given them a place to trade. We had no idea about building this market. So people over here make many excuses that the space is small and they can’t fit in here. If they give us a place near about 5? 10, then we will be comfortable. There are a total of 600 people here and they have not been given much space, and provision is just for 368 people. How will the rest of the people adjust here? And because of this inconvenience, people over here are angry.
I	What do these 600 people do here, are all the vegetable sellers?
R	There are vegetable sellers, grocery shops, but the people of this Municipal don't allow them to sell groceries, they say it’s for vegetable sellers only, so they have joined us and we made the union. Until now it worked, but they don't sit here because this place is too small. They ask to pay 100 rupees, so who will pay for this? They pay just 50 rupees there, we don't understand what the people with the power do?
I	Of these 600 people, how many grocery stores are here?
R	About 100.
I	And the remaining 500?
R	600 vegetable sellers are here.
I	Ok, so there are 600 vegetable vendors here.
R	They have big shops here.
I	This market is very old and about 200 years old, I have heard it from many people, is it true? What have you heard?
R	In Nashik, this is the first-ever market.  there was no market before. Since the market is made, people from Nashik come here to buy grocery things.
I	Now there is a market everywhere.
R	Yes, there is a market everywhere. The first market of Nashik is this one. Very big markets used to be held over here and auctions were held too.
I	Okay. When did the market first move? 
R	During the Kumbh Mela In 2016, they removed it.
I	Okay in 2016 they removed it. And they are now allowing you people to enter here, right?
R	Yes, the vehicle of the encroachment comes here and removes the stores that settle over here.
I	Did you go to the court then?
R	Someone sits here, someone sits over there.
I	No, did you go to the high court to challenge this?
R	Oh yes, we went there to say we want this place.
I	So what was the judgment for that?
R	Some people told us that we lose, some told us we don't know. We mind our own business, there are two members, and they see all this stuff.
I	So now are you waiting to get your place back?
R	Yes, they should give us our place back or just repair it and give us just 5? 10 feet. 
I	At first, when you were moved in 2017, what were the changes in your trading?
R	Initially, I used to sell 20 net bags, and now hardly 5 net bags I sell in two days.
I	How much do you get from 20 net bags?
R	About 2000 rupees.
I	Do you sell 2 boxes daily now?
R	In two days 5 carets which contain 100 kg.
I	100 kgs. Nowadays, how much do you sell?
R	Sometimes 5 carets, sometimes hardly possible, but I can earn 500 rupees daily over here or 300.
I	500. So it has been decreased to 2000 to 500.
R	Yes, I am hardly earning my livelihood. And that's all.
I	You didn't try anywhere else, in any other part of the city?
R	We tried, but the places we were offered were too small. If they offered us 5 x 10 areas over there, we will be thankful to them.
I	And the customers have trouble to climb, is it true?
R	Yes. We are not earning well here, so people think if we get that place it would be good. But some people say this place we have got today is good
I	Because customer can come here easily.
R	Because an old man can come here too. Tourist people come here, so they purchase things too. But my opinion is, we should get our old place back, it’s better than this. But they won't give us. The government is of "Kamal". (BJP)
I	They have made a parking lot from that old place, right?
R	Yes, that's the thing.  ‘Niranjan Takle’ the news reporter.
I	Niranjan Takle?
R	Niranjan Takle – accident, news reporter. He was sitting at the market place there.
I	Did he write a report?
R	He declared that this place belongs to Punjab Sarkar.
I	Yeah, I heard that, he was saying that this place belongs to the Punjab Sarkaar, Nashik corporation has to do nothing with it.
R	This place belongs to Punjab government and not Municipal Corporation.
I	Municipal Corporation? Do the people from Municipality come here to move you from here?
R	This place is under parking.
I	Are they under the contract?
R	Yes, and they allow us to trade over here. The vehicles of encroachment come here too, and when they come, we have to run from here.
I	When do they come here, do they come daily?
R	They come daily over here and fill their cars. They have no proper time to come, they arrive anytime according to their wish.
I	When did they arrive last time?
R	They didn't arrive today, but they have no proper time to come, they arrive anytime.
I	So do they come and take all over here away.
R	Yes, they flip our vehicles and take along with them.
I	To take back their vehicles, what do they have to do?
R	We have to pay fines of 3000 rupees to bring our vehicles back. But they really don't care about our vehicles, they treat us very badly, they don't care if it breaks away too.
I	Since you are coming here at the Godavari Ghat from your childhood, how was the Godavari before?
R	Earlier, there was no concreting, there were stones everywhere and the height of the concreting has been increased now.
I	Is this concreting better than before?
R	Because of this concreting, Height of the water has been increased. And due to this increased floodwater, it easily enters the city.
I	So, due to concreting, flood damage has been increased.
R	Yes.
I	So, you think earlier it was better with stones?
R	Yes, nowadays we get water like a gutter, earlier the water was very pure like Ganga.
I	What is the reason behind the change in the water quality?
R	Can you see that bridge?
I	Yes, Victoria bridge.
R	Under that bridge, all the gutter and the waste are there. Not a single drop of water from a dam enters into that, and people use that water to take a bath. The visitors come here to visit, how will they get to know these things and they use it to take a bath. We know it very well, so we don't take a bath with this water.
I	What is the solution to this?
R	They should remove the gutter outside. 
I	If the gutter water is not released here then it will be alright, right. So, should they find out the solution on the gutter?
R	Yes, if they remove the gutter from the water, it will remain in good condition, nothing else would be needed. That's the reason behind the black colour of this water.
I	What else can we do here on Goda ghat to make this place more beautiful?
R	Just the problem of gutter in Ganga water should be solved. And there will be no requirement of the guards which have been placed over here.
I	Do you need anything or any construction on this ghat?
R	There is no use of anything over here, because of the water. A couple of days ago the bridge broke down.
I	What will be the benefits of changes made here for beautification?
R	No, it will be just a waste of Government’s money. Here on the bed of the river doing nothing; it is of no use making a park and planting trees.
I	Did you hear about the smart city over here and what's going on about it?
R	Yes, I heard about it but I don't think it is of any use for the poor people like us. Will the people sitting on the footpath get to the place? Only rich people will be richer and poor people will die.
I	So you don't think smart city will be of any use to you?
R	What will be the benefits to our poor people? We just need a place to trade, we are the people who earn 200 to 300 rupees a day. That's the thing, the only benefit of this smart city is for the rich people over here.
I	As the smart road has been built in front of the bus stop, do you have any benefits of that?
R	What is the benefit of that thing to us?
I	The city is developing.
R	Yes, the city is developing, but what is the benefit to poor people?
I	What should be done to benefit the poor people in the smart city?
R	I am not getting you.
I	Does the market need to be constructed?
R	Yes, you should visit Satpur's market and then you will get to know what a market is? And when the market is so big, the visitors will enjoy going over there. So tell them to build something like that, then people will enjoy going over there, I will go there too.
I	So you are trying to say that the smart city market should be built and it should be handed over to the poor people?
R	Yes, so have you gone over there and taken the pictures?
I	Yes, I have gone.
R	See this vehicle, would it fit over there, would this shop fit over there?
I	No, only two bags can fit over there. Not more than that.
R	On the backside, there are more shops. We just need the 5 X 10 area for our shops, we will sit in there just arrange it for ourselves.
I	They didn't ask/talk to you before constructing it?
R	No.
I	So at first, they did it and then they thought about its effects.
R	Even if they just have done concreting, we should have done our work. We are 600 people over here, what we think now is just, sit here and sell anything but just sit and sell. We are not getting the point to remove the 200 years old market. I have been sitting here over 30 years.
I	The market which is held on Wednesday, is it different?
R	Yes, it’s "Athodi bazar". That is different?
I	Yes, that is different. They don’t move from there?
R	That market is held only once.
I	They are allowed here only once a week?
R	Yes only on Wednesday and sell anything you want on the road
I	As this is the period of Diwali, is there any progress in your business?
R	Yes, it’s better than normal days. But the people selling flowers over there are in trouble. The people from encroachment are taking away their flowers.
I	You mean the people from the Corporation? What does this encroachment mean?
R	There is a yellow car in which officers and lady officers are present and they take away all the things from us.
I	Don't you get informed about them coming here?
R	We get to know when we see the people running all over here. And then we get alert and we run too.
I	Where do you keep your goods?
R	We keep it at our home.
I	The grocery shop sellers were telling us that they keep their goods.
R	Yes, they keep their goods over here
I	Okay so they keep them here and vegetable sellers take them home
R	When we had our shops to keep our things, no one dared to touch them.
I	But now you have to keep them.
R	Yes. But there is one old lady who manages everything over here.
I	She takes care of everybody’s things? Does that mean she is the caretaker at night?
R	Yes, we have to pay 10 rupees for a night.
I	Nice system.
R	Yes, it’s nice when the good remains at night it’s convenient to keep over here.
I	If you need anything over here, do you meet at the Nagarsevak? What is the actual procedure?
R	Yes, we have met. He asked us about our problems, I will solve them. But there were some foolish people; he asked us if we want the floor to be removed. So he promised us to do so. And plain the surface and sit wherever you want was the thing he said to us. Because someone has a small setup, someone has a big one. You tell us how much space we need? Minimum 5 by 10 feet space is needed. Only a thing needs 10 feet in length and 5 feet in width. In half of the space, the goods are stored, so we can sell them. So if you give us the 5 by 10 space we will enjoy our job. Please do it for us and remove these people over here if they don't move from here beat them, but remove them from here.
I	What do you think, should the market be held on the bank of the river? A market place should be present in a historical place. Without this thing, the market doesn't come alive?
R	Brother, I was used to selling over 10 net bags in this market, let it be but we could see about 50 hips over here. You would have also been astonished to see this market. Not in Mumbai, not even in Delhi, nowhere would a wonderful market be organized. This used to start at 4 pm and ends at 10 pm
I	4 to 10? At night?
R	Yes, there was no market before. Earlier people used to come from CIDCO, Nashik Road, etc to shop here.
I	Now the market has been formed there, right?
R	Yes, now everywhere the markets have been found.
I	When was this market formed? 10 or 20 years?
R	From 2008 to 2016 this market was formed.
I	In CIDCO also this market was formed. So the market means the place of government where people are free to sell their items?
R	Yes.
I	They are not moved from there?
R	No, we were moved only.
I	Because of Kumbh Mela?
R	Yes, for 12 years, we again went to sit there in the market but this year they does not allow us.
I	Thank you for sharing the information with us.
R	Please tell them to allot some space for us and we will take care of it. And please don't share my name otherwise they will come for me
I	No.no. Yes, of course, and we are doing this for the college work, thank you.


NI053
I	Please tell me your name and your union name.
R	I am *** *** and I am the District Head of the Bhadrakali union.
I	How many Taxi workers come under your union?
R	We have 7500 auto working under our Union.
I	Okay, 7500. How many taxis travel on Nashik smart road from Ashok Stambh to Trimbak road?
R	About 200- 250.
I	Okay, so what were the difficulties you had to face during the time of construction of this Smart Road?
R	We have to face the problems since it is our city. As we are the citizens of Nashik and roads are under construction, we have to face the problems. As regards to our work, we have managed it somehow by parking our taxi at the side of the road and we adjusted as per requirement. We have been doing this for one and a half years now. But now in 15 days, this road will be completed, and we will be free to park our taxis at our place.
I	So you have been adjusting for one and a half years here?
R	Yes, it’s our city so obviously, we have to adjust here.
I	What will it change for you after the completion of the smart road?
R	You can see how beautiful it will look and the people will be free to ply on this road.
I	What are your expectations generally in Nashik city?
R	It should be developed and become a smart city.
I	What should be there in a smart city according to you?
R	First, security for ladies should be increased, that's the most important thing. The first point to notice is that when a new person enters the city, at first, he talks to the taxi driver about where he wants to go and all. If he wants to go to Trambak, then we show him the right way to go like there is a bus stand nearby and you can go from there.  That’s our duty, so we do it.
I	What are the main problems which auto drivers are facing in this city?
R	Because of this smart city, we have been adjusting. We have 4 auto stands here.  taxis go to CIDCO, Panchavati, Satpur, and college road.
I	Okay, so you have 4 stands here.
R	And this is the central stand, so you will always see the rush over here and so we have to adjust. See all these vehicles adjusted here.
I	Okay. So you have many problems over here?
R	Yes we have, but the thing is, this is our city so we have to face it. And now it’s a matter of 15 days and after this road will be completed and we will be free.
I	How do you work over here, what is your schedule? When do the auto drivers come here daily?
R	Taxi drivers come here from 6 am till 12 am at night. And then these night shift people go at 6am in the morning.
I	So, from 6am in the morning till what time?
R	From 6am till 12 am at night, the vehicles are here. We work in two shifts, day shift, and night shift.
I	So they work for 12 hours?
R	Yes. More than that.
I	Do maximum taxi drivers own their taxis or they take on rent?
R	Some take it on rent and some are owned by them. Not all are owned. Some people come from other cities so they have not much money, so they prefer to take on rent.
I	Yes, we were actually trying to see what the changes are heading over here.
R	Yes, we can see the changes here.
I	Do you think your business will increase by this, due to smart roads?
R	Yes, it has increased.
I	Do you think some new buses should be introduced here in Nashik?
R	Yes, they should introduce it here in Nashik because the buses over here are too old.
I	Yes, I saw that but are taxis more convenient than all, such as shared taxis to go from one place to another?
R	The specialty of the taxis in Nashik is, if a lady with her kids wants to travel by bus, she has to pay for all but if she travels by taxi, they don't have to pay for kids. So the outsider ladies have no trouble in our taxis in the city, they reach their home safely.
I	Did the Municipal Corporation people come here to talk with you, before starting the work, to take your opinion on that?
R	Yes, they have come to us.
I	What did they say?
R	They said that the road will be closed and we will have to face the problem. So, we answered them, this is our city, so we will face the problem and nobody else will face it. As there are four stands, we will adjust and we have been adjusting for one and a half years. But it will be completed in 15 days.
I	So it will be completed in 15 days?
R	Yes, it will be completed in 15 days. The work has been completed and only little work is remaining now.  
I	They told that, there will be no digging here because it's a permanent solution
R	Yes, because the work being done is permanent. 
I	For the smart road they are saying, this is permanent and old roads will be dug again and again.
R	The old electric line has been laid underground. Earlier it was from the top. There are no electric poles and lines now and they are inside the road. This has been done for a lifetime now, for the entire lifetime and nothing needs to be opened. As in Mumbai, the problem of water we get to see will not occur here.
I	Do you think this should be done all over the city?
R	Yes, it should be done.
I	Thank you very much and nice to talk to you.


NI054
I	How many are you in this market?
R	There are 40 people here.
I	40, okay. When was this market established? I mean, when has the market been running?
R	It has been running for around 30 years.
I	So, it has been running for 30 years now. Okay, what kind of items are getting sold here?
R	Everything. Whatever you want.
I	Alright.
R	You can see.
I	Yes. So, now tell me, what are the changes that occurred here after building the smart roads? 
R	What did they make? What smart road?
I	How has it affected the businesses? Did it produce any loss or any other thing after the construction of the smart road?
R	How can a smart road affect any business?  'Smart' is a different thing and 'business’ is a different thing. The new notes of 50 and 100, we old people don't understand the difference between the notes of 50 and 100. They make blind rules overnight.
I	Actually, we are from the 'University of Delhi'. We are studying how that smart road is affecting the people, market, taxi drivers, etc.
R2	It's affecting a lot. See, like in Diwali, the whole market was closed. And due to this, the public who used to come here got diverted and went into another market. The market of this area is finished.  Now by building this road, they have made this market collapse. In fact, this work started already in Diwali.
I	Alright. So, how was the business before constructing the road?
R2	Previously, it was like 50% more than now.  Now it has turned into 50% from 100%.
I	So, 50% from 100% direct?
I	Yes. Were your main customers from CBS?
R2	See, Now the public comes from the main CBS here. Then go to the main road by walking directly. So, now what the taxi drivers do is, they say that the road is closed and get diverted and go straight to the 'Shalimar'.
I	Alright.
R2	So, people don't come directly here, they go away instead of coming here. That means this road has no life due to making that smart road. We are at loss here! Our entire Diwali season was wasted.
R	Now it will get better after construction.
R2	Previously, this square was open. The work is still in progress for a long time. Some or the other road is closed forever. Now, this main square is under construction since 1.5 months. It is not completed yet.
I	What do you think? Why are they constructing this smart road? What have they told you?
R2	If the city is becoming smart, then so should be the roads.
I	Alright. What do you think, what should be there in the smart city?
R2	Just making roads smarter won't make the city smart.
R	Yes! Exactly! Before 40 years, there was a one rupee note. Which you've made of 500 today in India.
R2	If the notes will be smart, so will the city.
I	And, do the people from the Municipal corporation come here and order you to get out?
R	Yes, they trouble us a lot.
I	When?
R	We have to give them money.
I	When do they come, I mean?
R	Whenever they need it.
I	No, I mean once in a year or every month or what?
R	Whenever they wish or when they want votes from us. We have given them money.
I	Didn’t they give you the vendor’s card?
R	What card?
I	The card you get from the Municipal corporation.
R	No card has been given. Nothing.
I	Didn't they ask you even?
R	They have asked, but they take the bribe and do nothing.
R	Life is going on, nothing else. There's no point.
I	Which park is this?
R	'Shivaji Garden'.
I	It's a public park, right?
R	‘Shivaji Garden'. It was very famous at its time. Now see its condition.
I	So, this is the Municipal corporation’s park? 
R	Yes. The Municipal Corporation has given it to a private corporation.
I	For maintenance?
R	Private.
I	Can't common people go there now?
R	No. work is in progress.
I	Will it be a smart park?
R	God knows when it will be smart! Probably after our death! We don't think it will ever come into existence while we are alive.
I	Do you think Nashik will become smart?
R	It had already become smart when that bridge was constructed. The highways and all are made. But, not in the city! Here we've got nothing. The governments are all corrupt. 
I	What problems are you facing here in this market now?
R	Look dear, there is no problem. A city can never become Smart until there are bribers there.
I	Right. Corruption!
R	Everything is corrupted. A smart city can never come into reality until corruption is tackled in this country. This is my challenge. Remove corruption and only then it can become a smart city. Everyone is trying to fill their pockets from everywhere. There’s no point in such a thing. Can such bribers make the city smart? "Honour" and "Respect" are the real smart things.
I	Alright, dada.
R	So, when will this smart city come into existence?  Only when you will end this bribery, it can become a smart city?
I	Yes.
R	Only then the Smart city can form.
I	Yes, you are right. Actually, I am from the university.
R	Everybody is taking bribe, can it become a smart city then? We are working hard and eating here. Who is giving us to eat?  What will you do by making it a smart city? These rich people earn, fill their pockets, and make our mouths shut. Then, how will the city become smart? Is this a smart city?
I	So, poor people are facing troubles. Have you ever been moved or taken out from here?
R	Yes, always. We have to keep our shops closed for 15-15 days.
I	So, they come with their vehicles and fill them with our goods and whatever we have.
R	Yes, once they had taken my goods worth 30,000 rupees, they never returned.
I	Never returned?! Not even after paying the fine?
R	You can't get it even if you go there to get it back. You just get to see all the trash and garbage there.
I	Everyone we talk to here says that there's no use in this smart road.
R	What would be the use of making a smart city? Everyone is busy filling their own pockets. This bribery should be stopped first. What will you do by making a smart city? Now, see, that boy on the motorcycle has got caught. He will give 100 rupees and will get himself free. Everyone is doing this everywhere. Are Indians hungry for bribes of 100 rupees now? Be true and Honest!
I	In this market?
R	This is Shivaji Road Market. Where will the smart city come from? When the bribery ends.
I	This is important, you mean?
R	Yes. This only is the most important thing. Otherwise, the formation of the smart city is impossible. Go out of our country and see what 'Smart Cities' actually look like!
I	It will never happen in India.
R	Never! Here, bribery works. People who sit here have to give huge amounts like 50 thousand to the people from the municipality.


NI056
I	First of all please tell me your name.
R	*** ***.
I	Okay, which is your stand?
R	Ashok Stambh stand.
I	How many taxis were in service at the Ashok stambh stand?
R	There are nearly 15 to 20 taxis.
I	Where do you give the service?
R	All over Nashik,
I	So there is no fixed route for this?
R	No, no. We will go wherever you want to go.
I	So is this private?
R	Yes, it is private.
I	What are the problems that you are facing after introducing the smart road in Nashik?
R	The passengers we get argue with us for the fare we charge, because of this road we have to take a long turn to reach there and face difficulty.
I	How much do you charge more than earlier?
R	For Mahamarga, we used to charge 50 rupees but now we charge 60 rupees. They argued with us for these 10 rupees, we increased our charge because of the long turn we have to take now. They say that why do you take a long turn, so we will pay 40 or 50 only.
I	When did this smart road work start?
R	It started in March and it’s been about a year since the work started. The work has been ongoing since March and this year in March it shall complete 1 year. But still the work has not been completed.
I	Why has the work not finished?
R	They work very slowly and do not do their work by heart, they want to delay the work and earn more money by increasing the bill.
I	Before this road, how was your service?
R	It depended on the customers.
I	We want to know the difference in your business before and after the road.
R	The business has dropped down after this. Our business was going well before this smart city thing.
I	Do you have an idea on How many trips did you do in a day earlier?
R	We were earning 200 to 300 but now 150 to 200 rupees only.
I	It has been half.
R	Earlier, we used to earn 500 to 600 rupees too. People don’t pay us so much now. It neither suffices us nor the customers. If I tell you to pay me 70 then you will pay me 50.
I	How old is the stand?
R	This stand is very old, since the time horse carts were used.
I	Do you pay Nagar Nigam? People of Satpur were saying that they pay 60 rupees to the stand per year.
R	To the Municipal Corporation? Yes, we pay them too.
I	What is the plan behind the smart road?
R	You should ask Modi, he is planning all this. How do we know about it? We just need a fine city.
Why are you doing this survey? Where are you from?
I	We are from a university.
R	Would you talk to the government?
I	Yes, we will write a report.
R	Will you send our complaints to the government?
I	Yes, yes.
R	Okay, come here. Do you see the footpath and the road there, was there any need for the footpath bigger than the road there? What is the benefit of this thing in the smart city? We demanded the road to be widened, but they narrowed it. Because of this narrow road, traffic jams have increased, so what is the use of it? Footpaths are wider and roads are narrow, there is no provision of parking. If they manage to park, how will the police earn otherwise? If someone enters the medical store to buy medicines, it could be you or me. We will park the vehicle in front of the medical, then the police will collect your vehicle and you have to pay to release your vehicle. So who is earning money in this case? Only the government is earning money and poor people are dying here.
I	Is concreting better than the asphalt road?
R	Cement roads last longer. In an asphalt road you will find pits but in a cemented road there are no pits. But there are problems such as the concreting does not allow water to go under it.
I	You mean to say that there are advantages as well as disadvantages of concreting too.
R	Yes, and continuous maintenance is required to the asphalt road where concreting lasts longer. The earlier road was so fine that there was no need to make the new one. Can you see the road in front of you, that was the quality of the road When Raj Thackeray came to visit, at that time the roads were built? See that asphalt road it is so fine. Can you see any pits over there? How much have you travelled here?
I	I have been to Gangapur.
R	All the roads are in good condition. It rained very heavily, people over here are facing loss all over and dying. If the work is done properly, no problem will occur at all. The roads are clear such as the Gangapur road, so there was no need to make the road.
I	They say, the number of pedestrians will be increased by widening the footpath length.
R	Isn't parking essential when the road is being built? Instead of making a parking area they made a footpath. If you went to the medical store, where would you park the vehicle? That's the problem.
I	What do you think, how should a smart city be?
R	I agree on the smart city but the city needs to be developed, but behind this, they just want to earn money. Is the survey going on?
I	Yes.
R	There is one big issue in Nashik about parking. Because of the parking problem, traffic jam has increased in our city.
I	But they have left the space to plan for smart parking, isn't it?
R	It will not start until the smart road is completed. On smart roads, there should be space available for parking. Police bother a lot, please complain about them. Do you have a bike?
I	No.
R	Police is a problem in this Nashik city, from where will poor people pay the fine? The fine is from 200 to 500.
I	The online system has been more difficult, isn’t it true?
R	Yes, and if they want to fine you, they will for no reason, just file your registration number and your case will be pending. They don't work to do their duty, they work to earn money. Don't we understand?
I	According to you, What is a smart city?
R	Here, businesses don’t run like Mumbai, it’s a town.
I	This is Nashik, a big city.
R	For us, it's a town, City has been widening now. Several companies have been closed down in Satpur.
I	Recession going on in Satpur?
R	Yes, about 2000 small companies are closed and people have lost their jobs. This is the first time in our life.
I	They will get any benefit from this smart city?
R	Nothing will happen to ordinary people. Stalls that poor people are running will not be allowed after the smart city, such as food stalls. How will the people earn money?
I	Food stall. Yes, I heard about that. I talked to them and they are not allowed to set it up there.
R	Footpath stalls are not allowed, how will they live and earn money? If items we sell at the stall are 30 to 40 rupees, the same items are sold in hotels at 60 to 70 rupees. If people want cheap foods, they go to stalls and serve even better. Whatever you say matters. A smart city is a good thing but there is no benefit to poor people. They face only problems.
I	Common person will not get benefit? Which project should be held here in a smart city?
R	What does it mean?
I	Leave the road, but what should be done from the funds available in the smart city?
R	The government should do whatever they want but take care of people, poor people should not get harmed or get into trouble.
I	What is the need in Nashik, do you need water?
R	We have sufficient water here. We are blessed and therefore we don’t require more water.
I	Then what do you need in Nashik?
R	We need money here, sit in the vehicle, I will explain to you. Will you complain? Nashik is world-famous. Do you know Lord Ram?
I	Yes, of course.
R	Ram was exiled here in Nashik. This is the chapter in Ramayan. There are a number of lodgings here. People from all over the world come here. There should be a proper arrangement for tourists to stay here.
I	You need lodgings for the tourists under the smart city.
R	Yes, that's my point of view.  If Panchavati is a tourist place, these things should be there.
I	And what are the needs of the citizens of Nashik?
R	Who will listen to us?
I	In which area do you live?
R	I live nearby.
I	What are the needs in your area where you live?
R	One thing I would like to say, you are good, I am good but the rest of the people can't be good. Modi is conducting the Clean India Movement (Swachh Bharat Mission) and the people all over throw the food, waste, and garbage on the streets, so is it right? All the people should be like-minded.
I	How many years have you been here on this stand?
R	32 years. I am old now.
I	32 years On Ashok Stambh?
R	Yes.
I	What changes have you seen at this Ashok stand during this period?
R	There is no change, just this building is constructed over here. Earlier, there was a forest here, but now colonies have been established. There were big rivulet and underground water sources, but now they are covered and the building is constructed there. So, we had a water source here. What is it called at your place?
I	Oh, there was a water source, we called it Kund right?
R	Yes, earlier all water that came here, it was like a river.
I	Concreting has been done over the Godha ghat.
R	Yes, people are against it. It was good, naturally. Our city is good. Earlier, this river was clean and as the corporation changed, we are having lots of trouble. The river is of no use now. Every drainage line meets the river. You should complain about it.
I	Yes, it goes from behind.
R	No, it goes from the front side. Have you been to Panchavati?
I	Yes I have been there.
R	So did you see the drainage pipes there?
I	Yes, and people were complaining too.
R	Important things should be done on priorities.
I	What are those important things?
R	People come here to visit at the time of Kumbh Mela and to take a bath, people gather here and there is not enough space left in the Ram Kund area. More than 25 lakh people gather here and even more than that. You can’t see the car and bikes till 4 kilometres, so better arrangements should be made for them. Arrangements should be done just like in Varanasi as done by Modiji people come here to take a bath in the gutter.
I	So it should be cleaned?
R	Yes, the solution is required for the drainage system.
I	When did you first hear about smart city?
R	We have heard it recently.
I	How does it sound to you, when you heard it for the first time that Nashik shall become a smart city?
R2	We thought it would be great and our city would become smart and clean. We thought they would manage the parking system. Street light wiring will be cleaned and they did very well. The door of the dam has closed.
I	What else have you thought about changes?
R2	Buses and more facilities will be provided to us. Bus hasn’t come yet. Citizens should get proper arrangements to sit and relax under shade and have a good talk with their friends. We could take a walk on the footpath. This is how a smart city should be. It should be designed as there will be no problem with traffic.
I	So you ever think, all this will be included in the smart city? But still, the road is not completed.
R2	People are parking vehicles on the footpath, while construction is going on.
I	What changes have you thought about your locality? Do you think about what work should be done in your area where you live?
R2	There should be a change in traffic signal such as the provision of generators should be made.
I	So we were talking about the signal.
R	So, energy is lost during the signal time, maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Thus, generator is needed. Yes, when the electric line gets cut off due to some reason, here, traffic gets jammed the generator is needed. Due to the electricity problem, big points such as Dwarka and CBS get heavy traffic jams for 2 to 3 hours.
I	Have you not thought of any change in your area like water supply?
R2	We haven't though, but the changes have been done.
I	What are the changes?
R2	About water supply, things have changed after the underground system. Earlier, the wastewater used to flow on the road. Now it’s going under the road.
I	Where is the water going? Are you talking about the road?
R2	If we lived on the roadside earlier, water would flow near our houses.
I	So, you live near the Ashok Stambh?
R2	So, this is a benefit to us as water flows below the road, because we live near to Ashok Stambh.


NI057
I	Brother, first tell me your name and the name of this stand. 
R	'Mai Riksha stand'.
I	And what is your name?
R	*** ***.
I	So, what problems have you faced due to the construction of this smart road? Or what changes has it brought?
R	Nothing has changed. Everything is just like before.
I	Because many people and auto drivers at CBS were telling me that their businesses are down.
R	Yes, they have just constructed the roads but there is no business going on. Just buses come here. It gets difficult for the passengers to walk here. If we have to come to the CBS from Panchvati, we have to take multiple rounds and can't come here straight. The road from where we used to come earlier is now closed. So, we are facing many difficulties now.
I	Which is your route?
R	We travel locally. Wherever I can get a customer.
I	How many autos are here at your stand?
R	Regularly, there are 5 to 10 autos here.
I	And where does this route go from the Meher signal? Is there any fixed route?
R	We go to the Gangapur road too. It depends upon the customer’s wish.
I	So, what was their purpose in building this smart road? What do you think?
R	It was better before. Now the difficulties have increased. No one knows how many days this is going to last. It has now been rebuilt after spoiling the good one. The work started a year ago just for 1km, and it has been going on for more than 2 years now. Still, it is not done yet.
R2	The first thing is, Nashik court is near the main CBS, then there is the civil line, then Shakkar Bazar and the Main bus stand. It hampers the movement and transportation.  
I	What is the condition of your business now? How many trips do you do previously?
R	We faced a lot of trouble for about 4- 6 months when the construction of the road was going on.
I	How many trips did you used to do before? Do you remember?
R	8-10 trips nearly.
I	And now?
R	Now, it is 5-6 trips that too with so much difficulty.
I	Alright. That means this smart road doesn't benefit you much.
R2	What benefit will you get with the smart city? No, not at all. Only the road looks better. Nothing more than that.
R	It is just a smart road, what difference does it make?
R2	With smart road, did the road increase, did your business increase? Only the roads have become large. Our businesses are still the same. The situation is worse now.
I	So, why have they done this? Haven’t they told you anything?
R2	They did not take the opinion of the people.
I	Okay.
R	It is according to their wish. They have made this according to the Government.
R2	Building a single road does not create a smart city.
I	So, what should be made under the smart city?
R2	They should make roads, they should solve the issue of parking, etc.
I	Would the footpath be right for walking on the Smart Road?
R2	No, they have just made the roads. At some places, the footpaths are made, but they are excessively widened.  If a bus stops on the way anywhere, then the entire traffic gets jammed.
I	Yes, many people were saying this. Why is that footpath so big?
R2	It is extremely big. If you see outside the court area, it is so big and It is Beyond limit.
I	They say that more people will be able to walk there.
R	No. It is not like that. Instead of building such a big footpath, they should have made a Parking lot there. At least it would be useful. This road is so small that hardly one person can walk at a time.	
I	Yes, it is very small in this place.
R	There is nothing as per the concept of smart city. It is smart just for namesake. A city can’t be smart just by adding the work smart. But, there's no single smart thing here.
R2	The water that accumulates here also runs by the road. If they have made the road smart, then the water should flow underground. But it flows on the surface. 
I	They say they have changed the electric line from top to bottom now. So it looks smart now.
R	It's just for the show. They have just taken one electric line from the upper side to the bottom here. What about the rest?
R2	If you come here at night, you will see complete darkness as it is dim light. The entire road is not visible. 
R	They have taken the lights to the bottom, but how long will it work properly?
R2	They are garden lights.
I	So, they are not bright enough.
R	Yes. And as you can see, they have not installed any lights over here yet. And no one knows how long the lights   installed there will work properly. And what after that? If any of the lights get out of service, no one will pay attention to it.
R2	Previously there was enough street light on the road. Now there's nothing like that. These garden lights are of no use.
R	This is just a show-off. This is the result of corruption.
I	Many auto drivers were telling us that there is a huge problem with ‘Stands', here in Nashik.
R	Yes. More than half of our auto stands are removed from here. There is no place for us to park our vehicles on the road. The old stands which were here are also removed by them to the footpath.
I	How many stands were there? Do you remember?
R	In our place here, it is fine but from CBS, there were nearly 8-10 stands.
I	Everything has been removed.
R	Yes. The same happened with the 'Trambak circle'. They should have asked for public opinion. Just by giving them the name 'smart', does not make them smart. Wherever you look in Nashik, you will find garbage lying there. They didn't pay attention where it was needed, instead, they are disturbing the scene where it is not required. Not only did the people have to live upon auto business but, it also troubled the street vendors too. Now, 15 days, the traders from MG road went on strike.
I	Did they do it?
R	Yes.
I	At MG road? In front of Meher Hotel?
R	Yes. What trouble! They took over 2 years for 1 kilometre. If they will be given the work of the entire Nashik, then I don't think even 100 years will be enough for them to complete it.
I	Yeah, it won't get completed.
R2	These big traders run their trades on credit. The traders who have gone bankrupt should be able to run their businesses too. This road has blocked everything. People don't have space to walk, no space for parking.
I	So, what should they make in the smart city, other than the roads? 
R	The people who have occupied the seats in the corporation like the Municipal corporator and others are only getting smarter. I don't find any other smartness here otherwise, People are suffering.
I	Oh yes! What is needed for Nashik?
R	A survey was done for the smart city 1.5-2 years ago as well. People shared their opinions like; They wanted a huge tree here along the roadside, a little place to sit and many such things. And what they gave us in return is this excessive footpath, which is of no use and in other places there is no footpath!
I	So, you said you want a big tree here to sit under the shade.
R	Yes. They have cut down all the trees.
I	Were there big trees at this place?
R	Yes. There were deodar trees here with white flowers. They cut them all and they were really nice. and instead of that they planted this grass here.
I	Where is the grass? Wasn't this divider here earlier?
R	The divider was here. It was made before the formation of Smart city during the 'Kumbh Mela'. The Smart city was formed nearly 2 -3 years ago, and 'Kumbh Mela’ was organized 2 years before that. That was a nice road. It was also made 2-3 years. There was not a single pit on it.
I	That means, they Keep digging the good road and make it new every time.
R	Yes. Dig a good road and make it a smart city.
I	So, this is the problem.
R2	There was no need to build a new road. If only the street lights were made underground, it would have become a smart road.
R	People's employment has not increased and they are calling this a smart city! Those who were earning also have lost their livelihood.
I	And we have heard that the recession prevails here.
R	Recession exists all over India. Recession is faced by the company people. But for people like us who earn like 100-200-250-300 daily, earning even that much has become difficult for us.
R2	Recession prevails all over India.  This is all due to Modiji’s blessings.
R	The thousands of employees of the companies have gone jobless due to the recession. 50% of the employees are cut off with the single stroke of this recession. We can clearly see that. But the people living on the footpath and common man, what can they tell?
I	So, businesses are down.
R	Yes. Which News channel are you from?
I	No, not from the News channel. We are from the University of Delhi. Basically, we are studying how smart roads have affected the shopkeepers, auto drivers, and other people living here.
R	Smart roads have done nothing good for us. It has made it difficult for us to earn instead.
R2	At least the asphalt roads used to get repaired before. Do you know what will happen now? These smart roads wouldn't even get repaired now.
I	Oh yes! And the auto drivers were saying that this road is not so even.
R	They have made speed breakers there at the junction. To control the speed of the people who drive fast. Plain roads can increase the chances of accidents. So, they have made speed breakers at every square.
I	And even the roads are made a little narrow. 
R	If the footpaths are widened, the roads will naturally go narrow.
R2	The road is as wide as it had been earlier.
R	It looks smaller because of these big footpaths.
R2	The asphalt roads had turned into cement roads and the footpath only widened.
I	So, the asphalt road was better?
R2	Yes. It was made only 2-3 years ago during the Kumbh Mela.
R	It was made in 2017.
R2	It had carried a huge tender of 100 to 200 crores to construct this asphalt road for the 'Kumbh Mela' and that money was all waste. Now this huge expense again for this cement road. They have even put this smart city dispute on the poor people. People are there only to embezzle the money. Tax increases and the poor people are left to die.
I	What kind of project do you expect to start under the proposal of a smart city apart from the smart road like sewerage work or anything else in your locality?
R	There should be an abundance of Wi-Fi facilities in Nashik city for the public. Here the company proclaims for 4G and provides only 2G here. You won't even get a network here if you try to catch it.
I	Probably, for our smart city, a Wi-Fi facility is proposed.
R	The CCTV cameras are not installed, nothing!
I	There is free Wi-Fi everywhere in big cities like Mumbai.
R	Yes, at railway stations.
I	When do you come here in the morning? 
R	We come here from 7.30-8.00 am.
I	Till what time do you stay here?
R	Some stay till 9, some leave at 6 or 7. According to their convenience. 
I	How many trips can you have nowadays?
R	8- 10 trips throughout the day.
I	Alright. Thank you so much.
R	Where are you from? Delhi?
I	I have come from the 'University of Delhi'.
R	How is Delhi Government?
I	Delhi Government is better because it has cut half electric and water bills.
R	Yes, that is the main thing.
I	Yes, it is good that water, electricity and metro buses are already performing   well.
R	How is the Kejriwal Government compared to the Modi and Congress Government?
I	Yes, people say that It is Good.
R	People say it is a good Government.
I	Yes, 'Aam Aadmi Party',
R	Schools are improved there too.
I	Yes, of course! They focus on the school.
R	Here all are ruling to rob.
R2	All we demand from the government is Hospitals, schools, education, and food. If we get it, that is enough.
I	So, Education and Health are needed in a smart city.
R	What is a smart city? Only constructing the road cannot define a smart city.
I	Even I don’t know what is it with the smart road. Anyways, Thank you so much.


NI058
I	First tell me, where do you drive your taxi and what is your route?
R	Our route is From CBS to Panchavati.
R2	But if we get a customer then we are ready to go everywhere.
I	Okay. So, it is from CBS to Panchavati. How many people are there?
R	There are 600 to 700 taxis.
I	Just for CBS to Panchavati?
R	Panchavati to CBS. We go all over in Nashik, CBS means it’s the centre of Nashik. So, vehicles go everywhere in Nashik from this place.
I	So there are 700 taxis in Nashik.
R	No, there are 3 lakh taxis in Nashik.
I	And from CBS to Panchavati it is around 700, right?
R	Yes.
I	What changes have come since the formation of the smart road?
R	No changes, in fact we are facing a downfall in our business.
I	How?
R	The period for completion of the road has finished. The time required was more than they committed. This was our taxi stand where two taxis used to stand, but now the size of the stand has been decreased. We don't have space to get the vehicle inside the stand. To enter, we have to enter from one way; it should be from the other way, not one way. We can't enter here straight and if we make a U-turn, we have to pay a fine to the police.
I	Where is your stand?
R	This is our stand, but the entrance is from the other side and that’s the wrong side. From here it's out and from there it’s in.
I	If we are coming from Panchavati, then we have to take the right turn here, right?
R	Yes, you have to take right but you are not allowed to take it, you will have to go straight.
I	Turning right is not allowed, so you have to go till Trimbak Naka and take the turn?
R	Yes. We have to make a U-turn from Trimbak Naka.
R2	And when you make a turn and come here you will get to this divider and footpath. So, when you come from Trimbak Naka, take a right from the bus stand then take a U-turn from Padma hotel, then you enter here.
I	So we can say that the design of the stand is not proper. What are the other problems you are facing here?
R2	The chamber is here, so in the rainy season all the water is stored here. We can’t even stand or sit here. This is the problem. And if we park the taxis in a straight line, then the customers can't enter here. There should be a road to enter. The space we have here is too small for us.
I	Okay, so distance is less. When did the construction start on this road?
R	It has been three years since it started.
I	How much time did they ask to complete it?
R	About two to two and a half years, but some cases are going on now in the court.
I	No, how much months have you been told, for the completion of the road?
R	They told us 2 years. But in the two years, no smart city has been done and still it will take 6 to 7 months to complete the road work. Over there the signal is closed as work is going on; and in the previous signal also you can see the work is still going on.
I	How was your business before, how many trips did you usually do?
R	It was better earlier, we used to earn 600 to 700 Rupees per day and now we earn 300 to 400 Rupees per day.
I	You are earning almost half of it.
R	We used to earn 600 to 700 Rupees earlier, but now it is only 300 to 400.
I	What else are the problems here?
R	What more problems? Customers face issues … The bus passengers are facing problems exiting the bus stop because of the traffic rush. And because of this we are wasting so much time coming and going.
I	What do you think was the purpose of making the smart road?
R	Smart people have BJP government.  They want the people to notice their work. That is their vision. But the general people are suffering a heavy loss. People here lost their businesses. Otherwise on Diwali, we used to make good profit. At that time, people did not get taxis, but now we have to wait for our customers. We have to wait for hours for the customers. So, it a huge problem here now.
I	We are hearing about the problem of the stand, which is all over in Nashik. Auto stands are not there and the people from Satpur were complaining too that their stand had been removed. So what is the solution to that?
R	What can be done? Nashik Municipality should find a solution to it. As our taxi is R.T.O permitted and we pay the taxes on our taxi, it is necessary that they should manage the right space for the business purposes.  As you are collecting taxes for commercial things, so you should provide a point where he can do business. They are not giving that.
I	In your opinion, what should be in a smart city?
R	Yes, but rules and regulations should be strictly followed, here taxi drivers without a license drive the vehicles, the scrap vehicles who do not have permits, are on the road. There should be a smoking zone because we have trouble with the police.
I	Do you think Nashik can be a smart city?
R	Yes, but the rules are needed and the team should be organized to explain what a smart city is, and guidelines should be made on how to use the features of the smart city. Most people in Nashik don't even know what one-way is and which is not. For that purpose, there should be sign-posts and boards. It is very necessary. When new people enter the city and there is no board, how would they get to know the traffic laws? They will be fined. If they are sensible, then by seeing the board he will take the U-turn. If we talk about the roads in the smart city, the roads are not even. Speed breakers are bigger than their requirement. What University are you from?
I	Delhi University. What are your main problems?
R	What problems do you want to know about? Taxis, roads or other things that are not present in the smart city; what do you want to know?
I	I want to know about all three of them. But basically, we want to know the effects of smart roads on taxi drivers.
R	I will tell you in short, with the construction of the smart road, the size of our taxi stand has been decreased.
R2	It has become half.
R	The second problem with taxis is that the scrap vehicles which are running in the city and that is owned by the government….
R2	Their life has finished.
R	Which have been running for over 15 years and their life has finished, they are still running. The taxi drivers who don't have licenses or a badge are running the taxis in the city. And now talking about smart cities, they should make adjustments and necessary arrangements like smoking zones and all.
I	So the size of the stand seems smaller now and should be increased.
R2	Yes. Earlier, two lines were formed. One here and one there. The problem is the entry to the stand.
I	Okay, now it is one. Yes, as we discussed before.
R	Passengers face the problem too because of the limited space in the entry. So, number 1 is there in in a longer route and he does not want to go for the longer one, so after taking the passenger he will take this short route.
I	So, the size of the stand and the entry is the problem.
R	Yes, entry is from one way. And in Nashik, we don’t use meters. And if you call it a smart city then CNG should be introduced here as soon as possible. Only then can we call this Nashik city a smart city.
I	And business has reduced generally.
R	Yes, highly reduced. So, these are the new children. I have been working here at the stand since past 32 years. Earlier, 50 vehicles used to stand here.
R2	Previously, we used to drink Scotch and now we drink number 1.
I	Okay, so first you used to drink Scotch and now you drink number 1. Thank you.


NI059
I	First, tell me your name...
R	Sir, my name is *** ***. The RTO union here awarded me the best auto award. Best auto cab driver was given to me. By the RTO.
I	Ok.
R	On the auspicious occasion of Kumbh Mela, which comes after 12 years, which is a very big international festival indeed. For this festival, we started a Kawashaki abhiyan from the RTO and I was a part of that programme. Kumbh mela is held after every 12 years and it is an international level festival. During this festival, pilgrims come from all over the world.
R	And when they enter Nashik as travelers or pilgrims,no doubt their first encounter is with auto drivers.
R	We do pay respect to those travelers/customers by wishing them good morning sir/good evening sir/good afternoon sir/Namaste sir as customers are the form of God for us.
R	We named our programme as Kawashaki abhiyan. Customers are just like God to us. Auto-Rickshaw is the main component of Nashik city. The image of the city depends on the transportation system.
I	Tell me, what problems do taxi drivers have with the smart road?
R	The problem is that our old authorized corporation stands were dismissed.
I	How many stands were there?
R2	We had 5 or 6 stands.
R	6 auto stands. At main stand there were 10 auto-rickshaws. There was a stand beside CBS as well.
R	But the Smart city management has provided us with separate auto stands at the main CBS stand.
R 	The rest of our stands got dismissed as they have put the boards; No Standing, No Stopping. As a result, a lot of people have been deprived of labor and they lost their livelihood.
I	So how many stands were there? 6 stands?
R	Yes, 6 stands were there and now we have only one stand which is the CBS main stand.
I	You mean the Panchavati stand?
R	Yes, yes. The main stand at CBS. We all auto drivers had a talk with the company regarding this as the smart city road should not give us loss in our work as our family runs on auto. Nobody should steal or livelihood option. Now we have only one Auto stand. And for the rest of our stands, we request you through this survey medium.
R	And secondly, ‘viklang’ people also had a stand here to earn their livelihood. Moreover, there has been a huge loss for physically challenged people.
I	Ok. Who are those people?
R	Yes. I mean the physically challenged people. And the stands were here with the permission of the corporation commissioner. In spite of sanction being given, the stands have been removed.
I	Was it on the side of the road?
R	Yes, absolutely. It was on one side of the road and there was no issue of traffic due to that. They had set up their stall in that way from the Nashik Corporation. As part of the ‘Physically challenged’ organisation we work for these people and so we request them to give their stall.
I	How many stands were there?
R	There were 6 stalls.
I	What did those physically challenged people do here?
R	There are several schools nearby. They used to sell stationery items, biscuits, chocolates and mobile accessories for their livelihood. They faced huge losses because of that. I have given an appeal to the Municipal commissioner of Nashik Municipal Corporation that you can make the smart city.
R	We welcome the smart city project.  It is very good for the development of the city. We don’t have any problem with that. People come from outside and it looks good then.
R	It is necessary to give an authorized stand on behalf of the company
I	Did they say they will provide such stands?
R	We had a meeting with our new Commissioner Sir regarding this. Currently, as we do not have auto stands, drivers keep their vehicle anywhere and as a result, Traffic Police issues fines to auto-drivers. That also causes huge loss to us.
R	So, if smart-city gave us an auto stand then these auto drivers would not park their autos anywhere. And then you will see a nice system in Nashik.
I	Ok.
I	Did those who belong to Satpur lose their stand?
R	Yes sir they lost their stand.
I	So where do they work now?
R	They work anywhere as per their customers; it is not fixed. Sometime the policemen also trouble the auto-drivers. In the no-parking zone if they find vehicles parked, they fine them as per the traffic rules.
I	Where do you drive from?
R	We drive from college road. This is a very famous area. I have been driving for the last 25 years in Nashik.
I	How many shared autos run on college road?
R	We have 40 shared autos run from Shalimar Road on college road.
I	Ok. 40 shared autos for college road and they run very nicely.
R	The public city bus that we have…STC. You know that right? Government bus, city bus. What do you call them?
I	City bus, yes!
R	As City Buses are in loss, buses have been reduced in quantity. So due to that currently there is an opportunity for auto drivers to give service to the people. In entire Nashik, if you go to any place like Panchavati, then auto drivers shall give you the best service.
I	So, your main demand is that there should be more stands for Auto-Rickshaws?
R	Yes sir.
R	We had a meeting with our new Municipal Commissioner Sir. We told him that due to this smart road project we are facing huge losses in terms of removal of auto stands and thus we will be grateful if you people could help us in providing an authorized auto stand through this medium of the survey. Many people are facing issues due to unauthorized Rickshaws and pedestrians. Our city gets defamed when autos get parked randomly on the road. Pedestrians face a lot of problem while walking along the roadside. So, if they give permission for an auto stand under the smart city, then pedestrians will have the maximum benefit from that.
I	Lastly, what do you think about a smart city?
R	According to us, Nashik is a very nice city.
I	No, I mean What do you think should be in a Smart City?
R	So, under the smart city, the company constructed this smart road for us which is matter of great pride to us. This is the central attraction for our Nashik city. Whenever somebody shall pass from here, they will feel differently that the city has transformed into a nice smart city. Our Nashik city has come under the smart city mission and therefore, we welcome the smart city project but people have to face so many problems because of this. Now the construction of this road has taken so much time as you would have seen in the survey. We have a nice aim for the smart city but during that period several people faced trouble. So, from this medium I request the smart city people that work should be completed within the stipulated time as given by the company as people have to face a lot of problem because of this.
I	Thank you very much. My name is *** *** and I have come from Bengaluru but our institution is situated in Delhi.


NI063
I 	First of all, tell me how many auto-rickshaws are going on Nashik Road?
R 	Are you talking about a single stand or all the stand?
I 	No.
R	Daily at least 20 to 25 auto-rickshaws are running from the CBS bus stand. So, it gets very difficult to travel.
I 	Only 20 to 25 auto-rickshaws are running from the station for Nashik Road?
I 	Where was your stand before?
R3 	Here
R 	Before this job, I used to do it from the road ahead. For the past 15 to 20 years, we have been doing the job of carrying people.
R	We used to drive here for the last 30 years.
R	And here was our board on the side.
I 	Well, how was your board?
R2 	It got out in the encroachment.
R 	Right now, this stand is not legal. You see that round? We pay for freight there. We have been running from here for 30 years.
I 	So how many of your trips were made before this smart road project?
R 	The first trip, right? Now trips are reduced, earlier there were more trips. Now, as permits have increased, it has reduced.
R 	Now we have at most 3 or 4 trips. Earlier we used to have 7 to 8 trips.
R2 	We waited for 20 years to get a permit and now you see everyone taking a permit with ease. We waited for 20 years to get the permit. People pay extra money to get the permit.
I 	So, when did the stand on the board go away?
R 	It had been removed before this project started.
R2 	The department removed those boards due to election and encroachment as well.
R 	Presently, this stand is not even legal.  Right now, as this work is going on, we made our auto stand here.
R 	As soon as the work is done, the Municipal department will remove this stand from here.
I	Have you people spoken to the municipal corporation?
R 	Yes. What should we do – should we earn or should we go to them? One day we are all going to get union people and talk on this issue again.
I 	So, what did they say at the first meeting?
R 	They did not respond, but we are looking forward to talking again.
R3 	We used to drive for 30 years. From here we take customers on Nashik Road.
R 	We put that board when we were young, now we are half of age.
I 	What board did they put … is it for parking? What does the board mean?
R 	These shopkeepers refuse to stand up for our Auto-Rickshaw in front of their shops because of their business. They called the municipal department members to remove the auto drivers from here.
I 	Someone was telling here, is that a parking board?
R 	The Parking board is not here, parking is inside. It is the way that goes inside.
R2 	There is a board for no entry. People must stop if work is going on inside.
I 	Did they put an electronic board here?
R 	I am telling you, there is a legal stand for two rickshaws ahead. Sometimes they hire local people.
R2 	Ours is the sharing auto-rickshaw.
R 	Is the sharing auto-rickshaw different?
R 	The local rickshaw is different from the 2 rickshaws and the sharing ones are different. We take the freight from RS 20, RS 15, RS 10 to the station.
I 	Well, that stand is still there!
R 	Yes, it is still there for 2 rickshaws. It’s not ours.
R3	That is for the local people who do up-down.
I 	So, what is the main problem in the smart city?
R 	Our problem is that when this work will be done, then there will be no stand for us and there will be so much traffic coming here after the road gets cleared. We will not even get a place to park our Auto-rickshaw.
I 	Do you want them to make a stand for you people?
R 	We are trying to make a stand, but nothing is working.
I 	For whom is the stand being made on the left side? Is it being made for Ambad?
R2	Yes, they made 2 stands but those are not for us.
I 	Well, they did not think of that.
R 	They have not thought over about how rickshaw drivers will earn. whom should we speak to?
R 	We have faced difficulties in earning., Even if we take a front with the union, we need to take care of our families too. Time is the concern.
R2 	Yes.
I 	Ok it means, time is your Concern?
R 	Yes.
I 	Now it is like if you earn, you will eat.
I 	Means how much is your daily earning?
R 	Daily we earn 300 to 400.  We do a lot of hard work for this.
R2 	The acknowledgement of traffic people is not clear. Traffic police are making false traffic cases.
R 	Now, if the CCTV cameras get installed there and if one keeps or puts an old car there, then you will get a fake case on you.
I 	So, you are going to have a lot of trouble with CCTV regarding fine.
R 	It’s really problematic and auto-rickshaw drivers cannot avoid it.  
R 	The sin is, one has a license, it does not have a batch; or one has PUC and has not filed with insurance or not paid tax.
R 	So, tell me, what is their purpose behind the making of this smart road?
R 	We should become smart but we are facing a lot of problems. We are citizens of Maharashtra and India, but we are facing a lot of problems.
I 	No, what is the point of making this smart road? What was the reason?
R 	They had given the reason as Traffic jams saying people do not follow the traffic signal rules.
I 	But a lot of people said that they built a road at the Kumbh Mela's time, and it was good.
R 	And I know because of this road, everybody faced issues and this problem has increased. Now we do not have a place to park. Where will I drive my vehicle and where will I do business?
I 	So how many years have you been here in this Nashik Road auto stand?
R 	It has been 25 to 30 years since I started driving here.
R 	At the time we opened the board, we had only 5 to 6 auto-rickshaws. Now it has increased up to 30 to 35.
I 	Ok good.
I 	So, what were you doing for 25 years?
R 	I have been driving since I was young age.
I 	Okay. In this route itself?
R 	Yes.	
R 	I have been driving since a young age. I got the license in the 90s, before that I was driving without a license.
I 	What changes have you seen in 25 years?
R 	You mean since this work has begun, right? There was a checkpoint here; there was a board here in front. Our friends were here. They all became half of my age and now my elder brothers have become half of their age.
I 	Ok.


NI067
I	Where were you earlier?
R	Earlier, my shop was near to steps.
I	Which was the shop?
R	Shoe polish shop.
I	When did they ask you to shift?
R	It has been 2 years now.
I	Which problems did you face after they started the work? 
R	There are lots of problems actually. It affected my travelling, my business. It has been 2 years and there is no business going on.
I	When did you first come here in this road?
R	20 years ago.
I	So, you were paying rent to a municipal corporation.
R	Yes, we were paying receipts to the Municipal Corporation.
I	What changes have you seen on this road from the past 20 years? What are the issues that you face?
R	Previously also, there were issues with the road, but now problems have increased a lot with the new construction of road, these people are very slow in their work.
I	What was the plan for making a smart road?
R	They are thinking from a Future perspective maybe it will help in reducing the traffic and there will be more space for the footpath. The work they are doing is good, it is good for the future generation but the work is very slow. The roads are crooked and not made properly.
I	How many shops are there on the road? Do you remember?
R	On that side, there are 3 to 4 shops and on my side, there are 3 shops.
I	3 shops. What happened to those 3 shops?
R	They are sitting there and doing their business just like they used to do.
I	Where are they sitting?
R	One you can see is the umbrella one, and the other one sits here. They told me to sit here so I am doing my job from here.
I	Okay, so the Municipal Corporation told you to sit here?
R	Yes, I had given papers and they had given NOC to me, so I got the place in Hawker zone. These people did not give their name so they did not get any place in the hawker’s zone.
I	This is the hawker’s zone? Can you please explain in detail?
R	I guess in 2017 or in 2018 or in 2016-2017 they started taking the registrations in Hawker’s zone, I had given my name.
I	So, only this much road space is given for the Hawker’s zone?
R	Yes, from here till the end.
I	So, that main road is no Hawkers zone?
R	Yes, the main road is no hawker zone, there is no authority given for setting up shops.
I	How many people suffering due to the smart road?
R	You will face problem but Smart roads are good for the next generations. If you set up your shop on the road and vehicles are also parked here then you will see traffic jam everywhere. You will face problems in movement then and that is why it is all being made for the good. We just face to face some problems.
I	Do you think this hawking zone should be everywhere in the city?
R	Yes, it has already done. For many people, they had given a place at Ram-ghat, but those people are not going there. They put up their stalls here itself.
I	So, when did the counting of hawkers start? Do you remember?
R	It started by Mr. Tukaram Mundey; they have not implemented it well. The people who have been given place in the hawker’s zone here, they have yet not been placed here. They have given 5 feet places to every hawker, but they have not asked hawkers to sit there due to this road construction. These people are also not coming here due to construction since 2 years.
I	Do you know how many hawkers will adjust here?
R	Just count the 5 feet place till that tree. 
I	So, all of this started 5 years ago in the city?
R	No, Hawker’s zone work started 2-3 years before.
I	Did they survey all the hawkers of the city?
R	Yes.
I	So, they had given place to every hawker?
R	Yes, they had given place to registered people, but few people registered their names 4 times. You see that Chinese stall; he puts up 4 stalls and he had given 4-5 names. Now if 1 person registers 4-5 times then how will everybody get a place? Due to this over the registration of names, people are not getting places in the hawker zone.
I	So, when they gave this place to people, did everyone move here? How many people shifted?
R	Nobody shifted yet. Work is going on and the municipal corporation people are not coming. It’s the duty of the municipal corporation to empty and give the place to the registered owner. Those people are not coming and these people are also not moving. There will be a fight here then.
I	I am coming from Jalandhar where we did a project for 6 months, there also a street vendor survey is going on but there also people are not ready for shifting because they think the business may go down if we are removed from the main road.
R	No, the business will not go down. People will get habituated to it. If you hold on to the main road then everybody will face problem. When people will come to know that towards this side of the road it is hawker’s zone then people will start coming here automatically.
I	Are your old customers coming to your shop?
R	Yes, as they know my shop.
I	Do you think the hawker zone is a good idea?
R	Yes, it's good for the future because nobody will face any issue then, but they should build a Parking zone as well. 
I	There is no parking?
R	No, there is no parking so people parking on sidewalks. Now since construction work is going on, so people park their vehicles on the footpath itself which is meant for walking. The system is not working properly and nobody is paying attention.
I	What are your expectations from Smart city?
R	I do not have any expectations, but this is good for the next generation. Now we are living in such a crowded place, it should be safe for the future generation. This is what I feel.
I	What should be included in a smart city? what do you think?
R	A smart city should have everything like other outside cities. Nashik should have all those facilities.
I	Outside means where?
R	Other cities like Pune / Mumbai as you can see, they are also getting improved. Similarly, it should happen in Nashik.
I	Can you please give an example? What should be improved? You need new bus or what else?
R	There should be strict officers required in the system or required in corporation, it will help to improve. For any kind of improvement, you need a good officer.
I	Did you face any issues at the time of Kumbh Mela?
R	Never faced any issue because Kumbh mela used to go straight from that road. This side they used to cover with bamboos so we had no problem.
I	So, you did not face any issue?
R	No. because that road was kept open for people’s movement.
I	Basically, the Hawker zone is a good idea.
R	Yes, It's a good idea.
I	Apart from this, Is there any other hawking zone on this road?
R	Yes, at that Ram Ghat area, near a vegetable market. If you go from here to the Ganaga ghat, you will see Mahadev temple and they have made a zone there. Even they made near the Ganga River, near the vegetable market and a few are in front of the Prabhat theatre. All these are hawker’s zone. 
I	How many hawker zones are in the city?
R	I do not have that much idea, but it is everywhere.
I	So, if people are registering the place in the hawker zone, they are getting it?
R	Yes, registered people are getting the places.
I	Which documents did you submit?
R	No documents, it based on the survey, if you have shops then only you will get the place. If you don’t have any shop then there is no use getting a place here.
I	What is the importance of the street vendor or hawkers in the city?
R	I can't say but it is good. I think it is a good thing to make hawker’s zone.
I	When will this smart road work finish?
R	We don't know if our generation will be able to see it or not. It is taking 2 years for the construction of 1 km so just think how much time it will take to build whole roads in Nashik city. 
I	Why are they so slow?
R	They all are eating money doing corruption. You also eat and I’m also eating.
I	Have you talked to those people? 
R	There is no use in it. They try to shut people’s mouth and people also keep quiet then. Nobody does anything.
I	Thank you dada for talking about the hawking zones.


SI006
I	Like we discussed earlier; we are studying urban development in Shimla. We are looking into the history of the place, how it has changed over time, and what kind of changes people desire for Shimla. Our focus is on Lower Bazaar right now and our aim is to look into the history of Lower Bazaar. This is a collaboration between King’s College London and Institute of Economic Growth, Delhi. I am working with *** *** and *** ***. So, first of all tell us your name.
R	*** *** ***.
I	How old is the shop? How long have you been working here?
R	This shop came into existence in 1958, but we have been running the business since 1947.
I	The business, you say, has been in operation since 1947. The shop has been there since 1958.
R	Yes.
I	Where was the shop earlier, before 1958?
R	Here, in Chhoti Bazaar.
I	Okay. So here in Lower Bazaar?
I	Would you say you have lived in Shimla all your life?
R	No. We came to Shimla in 1947.
I	Where did you come from?
R	West Pakistan.
I	My grandmother migrated from Lahore.
R	Oh. Okay. I came from Rawalpindi but my wife is from Lahore.
I	Oh. Nice. How old are you?
R	I am 72 years old.
I	Where do you live now in Shimla?
R	Near the old bus stand.
I	You have been living there since you came here?
R	Yes. I have lived there all my life.
I	Please elaborate on the background of the shop, how it has changed since 1958…
R	This is a general store, cosmetics store. Customers come and go. We align the store with the needs of the people.
I	Has the shop expanded over time?
R	No. It has remained the same.
I	How many people were employed in the shop earlier?
R	In the beginning my father and my uncle used to run the shop. There were a few other employees but they quit eventually. In 1965 I joined my father at the shop. Then my younger brother joined around 1984-85. My younger son joined us in 1998. My father passed away in 2007. Now we are three people managing the shop
I	Now your brother and younger son run this place. What does your elder son do?
R	He owns and runs the ‘Dawat’ restaurant in New Shimla.
I	Yes, yes. I have seen the restaurant around the town. Now, you have been looking after the shop since 1965. What changes have you noticed in Lower Bazaar over the years?
R	It was a crowded market. Most of the offices in Shimla were located here. By the end of the day when people were headed home at around five in the evening, there used to be heavy rush in the area. Now that people started moving out, offices also moved out of town. The rush began dwindling. A few years back, the local main bus stand was shifted to ISBT. As Shimla started expanding, people started opening up shops and building houses towards the fringes of the town. A lot of the offices shifted to Kasumpti around the Maxim office complex. There is a lot of movement of customers now. There was a footpath here, too.
I	Come again?
R	Most of our movement was by foot. But now most of the areas around the town have developed a lot. Earlier there wasn’t much business in the Kasumpti area. The New Shimla that you see now, didn’t exist earlier. It came about much later.
I	When did the place develop?
R	It started developing around 15-20 years ago. Now, it is growing at a fast pace.
I	When did the offices begin shifting?
R	They started shifting about 15-20 years ago.
I	1990s you would say?
R	Yes.They began moving offices in the 1990s.
I	Early 1990s.
R	Yes.
I	Is that the reason the crowd has dwindled in these parts?
R	It has reduced drastically. There is less business in the market now.
I	The market is no more the same…
R	First of all, there has been a proliferation of goods. Secondly, there is a huge constraint for parking here.
I	There is a parking issue here?
R	People commute on their own vehicles because travelling on foot is no longer viable. Buses are overcrowded. Now, if everyone comes with their personal vehicles, where would they park?
I	The parking is near the lift, where the buses usually stop…
R	Yes, but it is not big enough.
I	Does the parking lot get filled very fast?
R	To get to the shops in this market area, people have to park in the parking area paying a fee of 150-200 rupees. But in the new area, people don't need to take the detour. They come to the office, shop when they have time, and go back straight to home. That is so much more convenient. Hence people have moved to the suburbs. You see New Shimla, Panthaghati, valley areas are so well-developed. Even Bathhakuphar has developed a lot.
I	So the local crowd has dwindled…
R	Yes. Local clients are less in number now.
I	There aren’t many tourist clientele here?
R	You wouldn't find many tourists in the lower bazaar area. They occupy the Mall Road space.
I	Tourists don’t frequent this place?
R	They do, on rare occasions.
I	Why is that?
R	They prefer the Mall Road. They have better accessibility to tourist spots and bigger markets. That is the main market area. This is a local market. Hence you don't see many tourists here. They prefer shopping around the place they are stationed in, whether for bigger things or stuff for daily use. Tourists carry general items like soaps or toothbrushes with them anyway. So there isn’t much lower bazaar could offer them.
I	Yes. There isn’t much they would need from this market…
R	Yes. They usually come prepared with general items they need on a daily basis and rest they buy from the main market on Mall Road. They have their lunch and dinner from the same place and carry on with the tour.
I	Let us discuss about the physical structure of Lower Bazaar vis-a-vis the roads, the shops etc. Have there been any significant changes in this regard?
R	It has been the same. We have the same old structures existing around here. Even the bus stand is the same. Nothing has changed.
I	No new initiative has taken place so far?
R	Even if someone wanted to build something new, there are a lot of formalities prescribed by the municipal corporation.
I	Why? How is the municipal corporation involved?
R	I don’t know. This is the thing with municipal corporations in India. You need permission for every little thing. If you want to renovate a space, you have to go through a host of formalities. It is exhausting.
I	So the same would apply to you if you wanted to renovate your shop?
R	Internal renovations are not a problem. However, if it is a building with several stories, and a person needed to renovate a portion of the body of the building, then the owner has to comply with a lot of formalities. When they refrain from any renovation, the tenant has to go through a lot of trouble.
I	Do you own your shop or have you rented it?
R	This is a rented shop.
I	Who do you pay the rent to? The corporation or any private individual?
R	I have rented it from a private individual, but there are a lot of stalls here rented by the municipal corporation. There is a substantial number of shops rented by the Waqf board as well.
I	There are properties belonging to the Waqf board as well? How many would you say?
R	No idea.
I	Which areas are they in?
R	Here, around the Lower Bazaar.
I	So, the Waqf board has rented out the space to shopkeepers.
R	Yes. It’s been there since ages.
I	Which of these places are being rented by the corporation?
R	All the stalls that you see here belong to the corporation.
I	The stalls on the outer side of the market?
R	Yes. The smaller stalls around the area.
I	The people who run the stalls pay the rent to the corporation?
R	Yes.
I	Has it always been like this?
R	Yes.
I	So people have not tried to change... Is the rent that you pay fixed?
R	It increases with time. Earlier it was really less. Now, it has been increasing over the years. I have increased the rent money as well.
I	The owner increased your rent?
R	I reached a compromise and negotiated the increase. I didn’t want any trouble in the future, so we resolved it between us.
I	Has renting the shop ever been a troublesome affair?
R	No. I have never faced any trouble.
I	So, it has been a smooth experience for you. What is your oldest memory of this place? For instance, do you remember coming here as a child? Any shop or restaurant or street that is etched in your memory?
R	My oldest memory is that of Mehru.
I	Mehru Halwai (sweetshop)?
R	Yes. Mehru was famous for potatoes served with puris (deep-fried flat breads), jalebis (sweet shaped like pretzel). Another one was Nathu Halwai, famous for doodh jalebis. It was very popular in those days.
I	You enjoyed eating there?
R	Yes. We used to go there often. Now, it has lost its sheen.
I	Any other memory of Lower Bazaar? Like any rendezvous with friends or any street you used to frequent?
R	Nothing as such. If we ever wanted to hang out with friends, we used to go to Mall Road.
I	You liked hanging out in Mall Road too?
R	This is a typical practice in Shimla. We make a few rounds of the marketplace, hang out with friends and then go back home. Shimla is the only place where people gather around in Mall Road several times in a day, to spend some time.
I	Do you still have the habit?
R	Nowadays I go there once in a while on Sundays.
I	Do you meet your friends there often?
R	We chance upon friends and acquaintances at the marketplace pretty frequently. In any case, if someone wants to meet up, they come over to the shop.
I	What other places do you visit at lower bazaar? Do you go to the farmers’ market or food grains market?
R	I don’t really go there. I have to look after my shop. But there are others who do go there.
I	Do you like working here?
R	There is no way out of this.
I	What do you like about this place?
R	Where else am I supposed to be? This is where I earn my livelihood. There is nothing to like or dislike about it. It’s our job.
I	Since you have been working here for so long, it is quite natural to develop an attachment to the place. Isn’t it?
R	It is what it is.
I	What are you most attached to, in this place?
R	This shop is our livelihood. It is a routine. That is all. It is as good as being at home. You live there, eat, work and go back to sleep. That’s how every day the business of life goes on.
I	That’s the best part of home, right? To be able to unwind and relax after the day’s job.
R	There isn’t anything to add here. We come to the shop, do the day’s job and go back home. The same way people go to the office.
I	Your elder son runs his restaurant, Daawat, at New Shimla. Is there any specific reason he did not open shop here?
R	Well, Shimla had just begun expanding. It was a new area with fresh opportunities. We got a shop there. We had not given much thought about the business. There weren’t any restaurants in that area at that time. We opened the first restaurant in New Shimla and were the first to offer a home delivery service. By God’s grace it is still popular with the people. Non vegetarian dishes, especially butter chicken, are very popular. The restaurant remains the most preferred one in Shimla.
I	Daawat is dear to you. Any other similar places in the Lower Bazaar that you cherish?
R	No. Nothing special is there as such.
I	Any anecdote you would like to share?
R	Nothing as such. No anecdotes worth mentioning.
I	What is it that you don't like about the place? Not just lower bazaar, but taking into account the core area as well, which includes the farmers market, cart road, gunj etc.
R	No. Nothing special to add here.
I	Any change in policies you would like to suggest? For instance, if you thought there should be changes to the conditions of roads, buildings or any infrastructure?
R	Roads are okay. Older structures need renovation and permissions should be easily accessible to people. The procedure to obtain permission should be simpler.
I	If you don’t mind repeating...
R	The formalities should not be so lengthy. If someone wants to develop their property, they should be granted permission immediately. The authorities are annoying in their demands for plans, maps, and blueprint. It should not be this complex. The laws are such that there is little scope for older buildings to be vacant. Ten to twenty people are on rent in each building. Take for example my building at the bus stand, there are several people living there. It’s like we have to wait for people to pass away.
I	Only then the building can be vacated?
R	I am not sure how this is going to turn out. The case has been in court for nine years now. Till now the court has not given a ruling on whether the building could be vacated.
I	Where is this?
R	Near the bus stand, near our home there is a building which belongs to us. The laws have created such hassle that we end up running pillar to post to address the issue.
I	Are there a lot of similar property litigations in lower bazaar?
R	Yes, there are several such instances in the entire core area.
I	What is the litigation about? I don’t think I fully understand it.
R	The tenants have lived in the buildings for a long time. It is not easy to secure new tenants (given the state of the buildings). The structures are not well-maintained. Therefore, the owners want to renovate the space and then give it to new tenants at an appropriate price. For instance, the tenants living in the building I own have been there for fifty years. It is not easy to afford to take a new two-bedroom house in the same area beside the bus stand, which would cost 20000 rupees easily. When someone pays a mere 20 or 30 or 40 rupees per month (under the tenancy laws for older buildings), they would not want to give up such a house. They refuse to leave the building. What can I do about that?
I	For how long have these buildings been rented out?
R	It varies from 30 years to forty or even fifty years.
I	So you can’t even ask them out. What kind of renovations are necessary in these buildings?
R	It needs modernisation.
I	Modern structure? What is that like?
R	It should be marketable. If it has better looks and is more developed, it makes the area look better. There should be better parking facilities.
I	What can be done about parking here?
R	Let the government think about that.
I	This is a no-car zone. Where do people park their cars? How do you come up from the bus stand? Do you take the lift?
R	On foot.
I	So you take the stairs. Is that a constraint?
R	It is a constraint in old age for sure.
I	Same with younger people as well. I felt that while walking to this place.
R	That’s because you are not used to it.
I	It’s true.
R	You can eat as we talk.
I	Yes. I am doing that. So you feel the parking issue should be addressed. Has either the municipal corporation or the Himachal Pradesh government come up with any new urban development policy in the last ten years? Have they given any thought to the development of the core areas?
R	They have, in fact, done the opposite.
I	How so?
R	They have imposed restrictions through the national green tribunal to the effect that we are not permitted to build a building more than two and half story high.
I	So, you cannot build a house higher than two and half stories?
R	Exactly.
I	Why do you think it is so?
R	It was because the NGT set the norms.
I	But why were these norms set?
R	Keeping in view the safety of Shimla.
I	How so? Is it to avert disasters due to instability of bigger buildings?
R	If it leads to disaster, we can do little about it.
I	How does the NGT ruling affect people? People would not be able to develop buildings thereafter?
R	How will they erect buildings? The amount of money that would be invested in tearing down and reconstructing would not be worth it if spent on only two and a half stories, when the original structure was at least four stories high.
I	The older structures would be at least four to five stories high? I saw them during my walks in the lower bazaar.
R	Yes. Sometimes they are six stories high.
I	Were these older buildings originally multi-storied or is it that floors were added over a period of time?
R	Some of them were legal additions and some illegal.
I	When did it start getting added?
R	I don’t know.
I	You would not want to discuss those?
R	Some of these were built with five to six stories originally during the British period. Some developed eventually.
I	You need the corporation’s permission to add floors?
R	Definitely. In any case the NGT has refused to grant permission for more two and half floors since a year and half.
I	Do you think the ruling should be called back?
R	Totally. It should be recalled. A minimum of four stories should be permissible.
I	What about NGT’s argument about safety of the town?
R	What about the government offices which are eleven stories high? Are they safe? They have erected nine to ten to eleven stories high buildings. How is that safe? The IGMC hospital is seven to eight stories high, there is a temple coming up as well. Even the High Court building has eleven stories. Whatever structures were made earlier have been retained.
I	These buildings were erected before the NGT orders came through?
R	Of course.
I	When did the High Court building come up? Which year?
R	It’s been a really long time. It must have been fifteen to twenty years back.  The District Court used to be here. Then the court and its operations were shifted to Chakkar.
I	Chakkar?
R	Yes. Since then, the Lower Bazaar lost a substantial chunk of its clientele. Look at the shops sitting idle there. Earlier, when people finished office at the court at around six in the evening, they used to stop by the market. It was a given that every day there would be at least ten thousand footfalls at the court complex. Of them around two thousand would do business at the market. It is a common thing that once you have parked your vehicle near the market, you would prefer finishing shopping chores and then going back home.
I	It has come to my notice that there is a proposal to move the farmers market and food grains market in this area to somewhere else, maybe towards Dhali. What do you think of such a measure? Will there be further reduction in the clientele coming to this market?
R	It might be a threat to the business in the Lower Bazaar area.
I	Then that step should be reconsidered.
R	They should rather focus on developing the Lower Bazaar comprehensively.
I	You are saying they should develop this area properly instead of shifting portions of the market elsewhere?
R	Yes. They should plan the development of this region and take strict measures to contain encroachment. They should take steps to remove hawkers encroaching on the place.
I	You are talking about the roadside hawkers?
R	Yes. the ones on the roadside.
I	Do the hawkers have any kind of permit?
R	They are stationed here illegally.
I	You had mentioned about stalls rented out by the municipal corporation. The hawkers are there illegally?
R	Yes. The hawkers on the roadside are operating illegally.
I	Okay. What about the hawkers at the farmers market?
R	All of them are illegal.
I	All of them?
R	Yes. The shops in the market are legitimate, but the makeshift ones on the roads are illegal.
I	Yes. They conduct business sitting on the edge of the road.
R	Yes. They are not legitimate.
I	Does the corporation do anything about it?
R	They often levy fine and issue challan to the hawkers.
I	Then?
R	The modus operandi is to gather their stuff and run away when the corporation officials are around, and come back once the latter is gone.
I	For long have hawkers come up on the road?
R	They have increased in the last ten to fifteen years.
I	Why is it that hawkers have increased here in the last ten to fifteen years?
R	There is an influx of people from Saharanpur.
I	Who?
R	The Mohammedans of Saharanpur keep coming here.
I	You mean the Mohammedans from Saharanpur?
R	Yes. Most of the food and vegetables business in this market belongs to them.
I	The Mohammedans of Saharanpur have an upper hand in these businesses here?
I	They have migrated to this place?
R	They come here regularly for business and then go back when it's done.
I	How did this happen?
R	They have been coming here since 10-12 years. Initially there were two, then started increasing in number. Now they have a political clout here.
I	How do they get political shelter?
R	They are deemed as a vote bank.
I	Okay. Is the Waqf board involved in this? Does it provide protection to them?
R	No. They are not involved in providing any such political protection to hawkers.
I	Those coming here for business have political protection?
R	Yes, their migration is politically motivated. They cannot be removed from their hold here.
I	In your opinion the hawkers should be removed and only legitimate shops should remain.
R	The roads should be cleared and cleaned. It would relieve the roads of congestion. That would make movement to shops easier. Let there be designated stalls for hawkers to spread their vegetables business. The plan for such stalls is underway, I think.
I	Separate stalls for hawkers are being built?
R	Yes.
I	Where?
R	Above the lift, there is an entire building being constructed for shifting the market to that place. They are also shifting the Tibetian market there.
I	Tripti market?
R	Tibetian market. It is there down the hill.
I	The market below the scandal point?
R	Yes.
I	That is being moved? So what would they use the property for after the market is moved?
R	That would be torn down. It was illegal in any case. The Supreme Court had ordered that the market be rehabilitated elsewhere before demolition.
I	The entire market would be shifted to the new building near the lift?
R	Yes. It is a huge building.
I	How high is it?
R	At least five to six stories.
I	To clarify, the Tibetian market and the hawkers would be shifted to the new building under construction now. What about the farmers market?
R	All the hawkers will be moved to the new building.
I	Are the hawkers registered in any way?
R	I don’t know. They probably have a union amongst them. I don’t know for sure.
I	There are a few smart city projects coming up in Shimla.
R	I have no idea.
I	I heard some of the stakeholders from Lower Bazaar were participants in the meeting regarding smart city projects. Was any meeting held here?
R	I have no clue.
I	Okay. So you don’t know anything about that. Have you had any conversation with others in this regard?
R	I have not had any such conversation so far.
I	What do you think a smart city is like?
R	When I don’t know what is being planned in such projects, how can I comment? If all they do is tear down everything that is there around here, what kind of smart city would that be? What is the point of it if people lose their livelihood?
I	They plan to tear down the existing structures to develop the place?
R	Yes. How else will they do it? If you demolish only then can you rebuild from scratch.
I	Why demolish instead of renovating the place?
R	How will they even rebuild otherwise. They need four feet from each side of the road to build new structures. How do they claim the space they need without demolition?
I	So the effort is to make wider roads…
R	Probably. I don’t know for sure.
I	Do you think that is a good idea?
R	I can’t comment until I have gained an understanding behind the idea.
I	I have read they want to redevelop the entire Lower Bazaar area. What do you propose they do about it? What is your opinion?
R	I don’t have any idea about their plans regarding this place.
I	I would like to know your opinion on how it should be done.
R	If I knew what they were about to do, then I would be able to give my opinion on it. Right?
I	Of course.
R	Also, if they intend to develop the market by demolishing 200 shops and 200 houses, then 400 households would be on the streets. That is undesirable.
I	What do you want? What is your vision of the future of Lower Bazaar?
R	There has been a drastic fall in business in Lower Bazaar. I see no opportunities here. I have nothing to envision.
I	So what should be done about it?
R	I don’t know. What can I say about what should be done?
I	What do you think will happen to this place after the renovation?
R	The market will be dead. What kind of development will you bring about by destroying the livelihood and lives of about 2000 houses here?
I	Why is it such a bad thing? A new and more developed place will replace it.
R	What about the people who were dislodged from their homes? Where will they go?
I	Okay. Till the work is complete, how are they going to fend for themselves? That would be a huge concern.
R	Even otherwise, if I take into account the building I own, where would the tenants move to? Sixty to eighty percent of the shops here are rented. They won’t even get compensation.
I	Only owners are eligible for compensation?
R	Yes. Compensation is always given to the owners.
I	Yes. The tenants will have nothing at the end.
R	Exactly. They will die of hunger. Families will be ruined.
I	That’s really difficult. Did the government not call a meeting with stakeholders to discuss the issue?
R	I have not seen any such initiative yet.
I	Okay.
R	I have no idea if such a thing transpired. Is that enough for now?
I	Yes. How do you like Shimla?
R	How would you feel about a place where you have spent your entire life?
I	You must have a deep attachment to Shimla.
R	This is home. It feels like how home should feel. East or West, home is the best.
I	What are the main issues of this place, generally speaking?
R	Walking uphill in old age is a daunting task. Rest is fine.
I	Any particular policy the government should pay attention to? We intend to engage in consultation with the government, the municipal corporation and the stakeholders and communicate the wish of the people to them. So, what would you want for the future of Shimla?
R	What can I say? Nothing comes to mind here.
I	Any problem, like water issues?
R	There was a water problem last year but the authorities are working on it.
I	There isn’t any water problem now?
R	Not recently. But for a long time, in the last 20-30 years, there was a huge water problem. Last year people didn’t get water for weeks.
I	I had heard about acute water shortage.
R	We had to ask guests to cancel visits. We had to ask them not to visit us.
I	Where does your extended family live?
R	They are scattered over several places like Punjab, Delhi and Uttar Pradesh.
I	Thank you for your time.


SI007
I	Please tell us your name and age.
R	My name is *** ***.
I	How old are you?
R	I am 60 years old.
I	Sixty? Okay. How long have you been running the shop?
R	I have been here since my birth.
I	You mean in Shimla?
R	It was my father who got the stall, when they were being handed out (by the government) in 1952. The entire side that you see now, all these roads were desolate.
I	The one here?
R	Yes. According to my father these areas used to be deserted. He passed his matriculation in 1932 from here. We have been living here over several generations. My grandfather is also from Shimla. The area you see over there did not have any stalls. They came into being under the Rehabilitation Act, which was a temporary provision.
I	In which year did they come into existence?
R	The stalls were set up between 1948-52.
I	They were put up temporarily?
R	Yes. They were set up temporarily. This area on the side of the view, except the part where the mosque is, was kept vacant by the British (during colonial times). There might have been a few old buildings from colonial times, scattered around. The restaurant Sher-e-Punjab run by brothers that you see here was recently developed, perhaps on the ruins of an older building.
I	They came up much later.
R	Yes. It probably came up in 1960.
I	When the stalls came about in 1952...
R	They were built under the Rehabilitation Act to help post-partition migrants from Pakistan, to help them settle down and provide them with a livelihood.
I	You mean the refugees which came from Pakistan.
R	Yes. The refugees who came here during that period. During the partition of India, a lot of refugees migrated to this place. They had left their land and property in the turmoil. The stalls were provided to them as a form of compensation and to help secure a livelihood.
I	What did your father do before 1952?
R	We had a shop in the Lower Bazaar. It was a general convenience store belonging to my grandfather.
I	Here, in Lower Bazaar?
R	Yes.
I	What happened to that shop?
R	The shop had been placed under mortgage to pay for someone’s bail. My father couldn’t repay the amount and we lost the claim over the shop.
I	Okay. Was there a procedure in place in those times?
R	Yes. There was an application process in place and that’s how we got this shop.
I	What did you submit the application for?
R	My father set up a fruit business.
I	How long did he run the shop?
R	He ran it till 1978. After that we began trading in electrical goods.
I	Why did you shift from fruits to electrical goods?
R	That is because I had done a course on electrical goods. I used to be a contractor for electrical goods, too.
I	Contractor? What did it involve?
R	I used to work with wiring and electric poles. I used to work on the electric wires with my own hands.
I	You used to work for independent clients?
R	Yes, I was on independent contracts.
I	You used to work for individual homes and offices?
R	I was offered job since it was easy to get jobs in those days, especially for people with technical degrees. It was my choice not to take a regular job. Nowadays getting employment is a bit difficult, but skilled workers have better employability than the unskilled. If you are good at what you do, there is no dearth of opportunities. The world has changed. Even the type of skills which can be gainfully employed is different. It is an age of automation. People should keep themselves prepared for such an age. Like Mr. Modi (The Prime Minister) says, even if you start a small business, you should be well-prepared. There is going to be a leap in the technologies that are coming up, and affect every aspect of our lives.
I	That’s right.
R	Automation is going to be a part of every aspect of industry.
I	You have been running the shop since 1978?
R	Yes.
I	Since then you have been dealing with electrical goods?
R	Yes.
I	Where did you do the course on electrical appliances?
R	I studied at the industrial training institute (ITI) in Shimla and then further studies at Hamirpur
I	You studied in Hamirpur?
R	Yes. ITI from Shimla.
I	Where is the IT institute in Shimla?
R	It is in Summer Hill.
I	Okay. Where is your home?
R	Earlier we used to rent a place. Now we have our own house.
I	Where?
R	Yodha Niwas.
I	Yodha Niwas?
R	Yes, at Yodha Niwas, in Lower Jakhu. 
I	So, you built your own house at Lower Jakhu.
R	Yes.
I	Where did you rent a home previously?
R	Earlier we had rented a place near Sadar police station, below the Subzi Mandi.
I	You must have been a regular visitor to the Subzi Mandi (vegetable market) as a child, accompanying your father?
R	Definitely. In Shimla, this is where I spent most of my childhood. In fact, my family spent a lot of their time here.
I	What changes have you observed in Lower Bazaar since your childhood?
R	Earlier, the railings of the stalls used to be made of lumber with white and black paint on them. That was the standard design. There used to be black paint on the wooden poles.
I	When and why did it change?
R	The lumber used to fall apart over a period of time. Then they started making the railings with other kinds of materials.
I	It used to be red and black in colour earlier?
R	Not red. It used to be black and white, as far as my memory goes. They used to be flimsy.
I	Did these shops exist then?
R	The building that you see in front of you is Raja Gyan Nath building.
I	The one mentioned as Maitreyee?
R	Yes. All the shops are part of the Raja Gyan Nath building.
I	What is the story behind it?
R	The building belonged to the king called Gyan Nath. There was also a theatre which he owned. The descendants of the royal family then sold the property and then this commercial establishment with the shops came up. The ground floor was rented to the Central Bank of India for a very long time. It was probably there till 1980 or 1985. After that it shifted to Bimloi road.
I	How many floors are there?
R	There is a basement and then then four or five floors.
I	What about public toilets?
R	The public toilet here has been renovated. There used to be a single floor, initially. Then they developed it further adding another floor on top. It was done recently.
I	How long back?
R	It's been there for four to five years.
I	The local people, shopkeepers use this toilet?
R	Yes. Even the public uses it.
I	Okay, it's open to the public too. Is it well-maintained?
R	Yes, it is.
I	Is it being maintained properly?
R	It is being taken care of but there are architectural problems with the structure.
I	How so?
R	I think it didn’t come off as it should have. The urinals don’t seem to have been placed correctly. It keeps leaking and that is not taken care of regularly.
I	You mentioned this space already had a toilet earlier as well?
R	There was a toilet earlier. It was maintained by us.
I	When did the stalls up in the front come into being?
R	Those stalls came up on the floor above the bathroom, much later.
I	What more would you like to add?
R	Rest of the stalls that you see came much later. I don't remember the exact year. It must have been in the1980s.
I	Talking about the history of Lower Bazaar, what were the instances of major changes you noticed here? For example, you mentioned about the lumber railings being given up. What else? Was there a time when a flurry of stalls came up or their character went through noticeable changes?
R	There were minor changes over the time. For instance, the shops used to have wooden planks and wooden hooks for locks. Slowly people moved on to shutter doors. This is the major change in the structure of the shops here.
I	Were the street vendors or hawkers always there?
R	No. They were not there initially. They started showing up intermittently and now there has been a steady rise in their number.
I	When did the proliferation of hawkers happen?
R	Initially there were a few. They have increased over last forty years or so.
I	You mentioned there was a sudden spike in their number. When did that happen?
R	1950 onwards.
I	You mentioned a sudden spike.
R	In the beginning there were a limited number of street vendors.
I	When exactly did the number increase?
R	From time to time. Now there has been a huge leap in the number of hawkers.
I	I saw the rush on Sunday.
R	The place is usually teeming with hawkers in the Sunday market, most of whom come from outside.
I	Where are they from?
R	They come from the lower areas of the hill. They sell their things on Sundays here and then go back. It is a busy market on Sundays, good for brisk business. They sell footwear, fabric materials, furniture etc. There is such a heavy rush that it is very difficult to even walk on these streets on Sundays.
I	Has the Sunday market come up recently, or has it always been there?
R	It has been there for the last thirty years.
I	The market did not exist before that?
R	It wasn’t this huge before that.
I	Since you have been coming here for the last forty to fifty years, what would you say is your fondest memory of this place?
R	There hasn’t been much change here. Background voices: Thakur Bhrata and Mehru Halwai are still there.
I	Thakur Bhrata and Mehru Halwai? Background noise: Vohra chemist, too.
R	Thakur Bhrata is one of the oldest pickle manufacturers here. Then we used to have delicious snacks at Mehru Halwai. People used to go to that place to eat puri and jalebis, which was their specialty.
I	Does it still exist?
R	No. It is not the same now. They have stopped serving jalebis for lack of a pastry chef.
I	Why is there a dearth of pastry chefs?
R	It isn’t the same anymore. Maybe they changed their own system of operation.
I	Any other memories worth mentioning?
R	There was another shop after Mehru Halwai, called Nathu Halwai in the corner of the market.
I	Nathu Halwai is still there.
R	The shop is still there. But it isn’t the same. They have a different system in place now. They used to have a bigger vessel out to fry breads. Now they are doing just fine. That’s alright. Things change with time.
I	So you feel nostalgic about the older times?
R	Definitely.
I	There used to be a few more sweet shops like Kulu Halwai near the Bharat medical. They shut down shop.
I	Anything more you would like to add? If you would like to recollect any memory of the streets or the core town in general.
R	There isn’t much to add.
I	We are talking about memories here. What other places in the core area do you think were impressionable?
R	You should mention the bus stand as well. There used to be a bus stand beside the Gurdwara. The last bus to Chandigarh used to leave at five in the evening. Chandigarh is a six hours long journey from here. The local bus beside the Gurdwara used to have six to seven buses running. It used to be the main bus station.
I	Now it is called the old bus stand.
R	No. This was another smaller one before that, behind the old bus stand. I think the old bus stand came into being in 1987. Background speaker: The Kamala Nehru Hospital was called Lady Reading hospital.
I	Lady Reading hospital?
R	That was the name.
I	Where is this?
R	The Kamala Nehru hospital was called Lady Reading hospital commemorating Lord reading and his patronage to the hospital.
I	The names of the hospitals have changed.
R	IGMC hospital was called Snowdon hospital. Then there was the Ripon hospital.
I	Deen Dayal?
R	Yes. Ripon hospital was renamed Deen Dayal hospital.
I	When did these names change?
R	Not sure.
R	It was only meant for women and children. Men were not allowed inside.
I	Any idea when that changed as well?
R	I don’t remember. I just remember men were not allowed inside the park.
I	No such reservations now?
R	No. Those restrictions don’t exist anymore. It’s an open park now.
I	When did that happen?
R	It has been twenty to twenty-five years since the change happened.
I	You have talked about changes like in the names of hospitals, proliferation of hawkers, some of the shops have changed the way they used to run their business etc. Do you think these changes were worth it or has it been a mixed bag?
R	Some changes have been necessary and good. Rest has to be taken care of by the government.
I	Talk a little more about the changes?
R	Our stall used to be on a dirt track. Now we are on a proper thoroughfare that runs below the Mall road side through here. The government built it in 1987 to open up the spaces for market. Now this market complex is called Nand Laal complex.
I	What is the name?
R	Nand Laal complex.
I	Which market is that?
R	The entire market that you see here with the proper shops are called Nand Laal complex.
I	Whose initiative was this?
R	It was done by the corporation.
I	Who was in power at that time?
R	It was during the Congress government. Bhajji (Harbhajan Singh Bhajji) was the MLA.
I	I seem to have intruded into your space. I apologise.
R	No issues. Please be seated.
I	How long did it take to concretise the shops?
R	It took six months. They worked really fast. At that we had Chitkara was our Ex.En.
I	Come again?
R	Chitkara. He was the ex-en of the corporation.
I	Who was he? An MLA or a councillor?
R	He was an Ex.En.
I	CM?
R	Ex-En, executive engineer with the municipal corporation.
I	Okay. Executive engineers are called Ex.En. I wasn’t aware of that. So, he was in charge of the developments and within six months the work was completed. Did the shops shut down for that period?
R	Yes. The shops were closed for six months.
I	How did you manage your livelihood?
R	We used to sell it outside this place, little by little
I	All the shops here did the same?
R	Yes.
I	It must have been a really difficult time.
R	It was difficult. But the government was really fast in developing the space.
I	That was a good thing then.
R	It was good.
I	Has it been a thorough job or do has there been issues with the shop over a period of time?
R	Absolutely no problem. The quality of work done was the best.
I	So, in 1987, Nand Laal complex was developed with concrete stalls?
R	Yes. Then this area was called Cotton Mary. Some older people will recognise the place with that place even now.
I	Which of the areas come under Cotton Mary?
R	The area between Sher-e-Punjab and Mehru Halwai used to be called Cotton Mary in older days.
I	Why was it so?
R	Ahead of Sher-e-Punjab, there used to be an Exchange building. It used to be on Mall Road, on the side of the road. Maybe there was a time when there was an exchange market here, so the building was named Exchange.
I	Do these shops have any connection to Mall Road?
R	They are placed below the Mall Road. The Mall Road runs above it.
I	This is the Mall Road.
R	Yes.
I	What would we find behind this shop?
R	The mountains. If you go outside and look straight up the hill, you will notice the railings of the Mall road.
I	So, I can see Mall Road up there from here if I step outside. Okay. How do you like working here in Lower Bazaar?
R	It’s alright. I like working here.
I	What exactly do you like about Lower Bazaar. What's the best thing about it?
R	Everything about it is great. Nothing particular to talk about. People are peaceful here.
I	Is the business good?
R	It’s alright. We have a decent livelihood. Other than that, there is never really an end to a person’s greed, right?
I	What are the things you don’t like about this place and would you like to see changed?
R	Nothing as such.
I	Why not? Everything is perfect as it is?
R	What is there to talk about changes? It is for the government to take care of things. So far, the smart city proposal of the government looks promising. If they live up to it, then that would be great.
I	What kind of changes are you expecting from the smart city plan?
R	All the cable lines and electrical wirings should be installed underground like it was during the British times. It was the British rulers who had created the underground water pipe system because water would easily freeze in the pipes due to heavy snowfall. The pipes from colonial times still exist in good condition and have been maintained well while the infrastructure built by our government doesn’t last long. Lot of work being done these days is faulty or of poorer quality when it should have been advanced in terms of technologies.
I	What kind of quality issues do you see?
R	The electric transformers and thick cable wirings that were installed during the colonial times are fully functional even now. Earlier, all these metal wires that went from pole to pole, were made of copper. The copper cables on the electric poles have been replaced by aluminium. Now all different kinds of cables like electric wires and telephone wires hang in knots from the poles rendering it hazardous. All of that should be underground. There is danger of monkeys from the Jakhu temple hanging from the cables, getting exposed to naked wires.
I	I am scared of even going to Jakhu temple because of the monkeys.
R	Yes. There are huge numbers of monkeys there. One has to be careful about going there. Especially for people with spectacles. The monkeys snatch it. There is even a board with warning, asking people to remove spectacles before going there.
I	So the wirings are crucial…
R	That is the most crucial part because we have had several instances of fire hazards due to them. Look how they are hanging like a knotted bunch. They should use a bus bar and kitkat fuse and place them properly to avert accidents.
I	What is a KitKat?
R	It is a fuse through which the power flows in a circuit. So, that should be taken care of during maintenance activities.
I	To help during power fluctuations?
R	Yes. To contain the power fluctuation and run it parallel under the ground.
I	Has it always been like this?
R	It was mostly because of the monkeys that have been commuting on the wires.  You should take a picture of these wires.
I	I will take a picture. Has the wiring always been like this?
R	No. They were different earlier. Now they are a bit too much because the load has increased over the years. Even the electric poles have increased in number. When the government decided to introduce LED lights for street lighting, they started erecting poles one after the other. That was unnecessary. What we need is higher wattage light but lesser poles. That would make the place neat and pretty. I have another suggestion as well. There should be ropeways or cable cars over the Mall Road for easy commuting by elderly people. In older days, we had rickshaws running on the side of the roads. But the cableway is smoother. You won’t find such rickshaws now. It needed four people to pull the vehicle. It was an interesting sight. They used to run it on Mall Road.
I	I have seen the rickshaws drawn by a single person.
R	Such rickshaws should have been put in a museum. They are a fascinating part of Shimla’s history.
I	When did it stop operating?
R	I guess it used to run when I was little.
I	How young were you?
R	I was in school at that time.
I	It stopped running after that?
R	I think it was on the streets till 1965. Four people had to draw it, two in the front and two at the back. That was a form of livelihood for some people. The resting shed on Mall Road now used to be the rickshaw stand.  It was two stories high. The rickshaw-pullers or the labourers used to live on the upper floor. The ground floor was where the rickshaws were stationed. It used to be the highlight of Mall Road. Another change that could be brought is a proper fire station. The roads should be neat and clear. The fire trucks create obstructions. If you go uphill the fire trucks would be found standing on the roadside. They should have a separate station for that.
I	You were talking about fire hazards and exposed electric cables. Does fire hazard happen frequently in Lower Bazaar?
R	There is always a greater risk here because the buildings are made of lumber.
I	When was the last time there was a fire accident?
R	There was one such incident sometime back at the farmer’s market. A few shops at Kanchan got damaged.
I	Kanchanpuri has been built anew?
R	Yes.
I	How old is the incident?
R	It was about two or three years ago.
I	What is the response of the fire brigade to such accidents?
R	They are prompt in their response.
I	Are there fire sensors installed in the market area?
R	There used to be a practice of fire inspection from time to time. There were fire hydrants installed.
I	What about now?
R	I haven’t seen them in a long time. Usually, fire hydrants come with a board pointing to where they have been placed. They were placed all over Mall Road. Regular inspections were carried out during the British period. None of that drill is done now. My father used to day, the tanks on the ridges were built with cement and hydrated lime in concrete mixers, at a time when cement and bricks were uncommon. Even in those times the sanitation workers were provided with leather gloves and masks to clean the drains.
I	There used to be better sanitation in those times?
R	Yes.
I	I can’t even imagine that now...
R	All of these areas used to be taken care of, especially Mall Road. These are a part of my childhood experiences.
I	Same applied for Lower Bazaar as well?
R	They used to clean Lower Bazaar intermittently, but a lot of care was taken of Mall Road.
I	I have seen that a lot of buildings here are made of wood or are quite unstable. Are there fire sensors in those structures?
R	I haven’t seen anyone come for inspection of fire sensors or anything of that sort. The water tank in the ridges had copper separators. They used to use partitions to clean the tanks in phases. Such was their eye for cleanliness. My father used to tell us. There used to a big water pipe coming from the top, from the Kumaon side.
I	After the fire broke out in the market a few years back, the shops were built anew?
R	Yes.
I	Do you have to take permission from the municipal corporation for rebuilding the shops?
R	Yes. The municipal corporation’s permission is mandatory. Nothing is done without their consent.
I	What is the application process like for someone whose shop went up in smoke or needed renovation?
R	That is taken care of by the government. They fund the renovation and get the shop erected promptly. The local MLA of this place takes care of it. Ex-MLA Bhajji stood with us here and oversaw the fire brigade’s operations. There is no trouble on that front.
I	They are taken care immediately.
R	Yes.
I	Was there any change in the buildings which were built anew after the fire incident?
R	Usually they try to build a bigger shop.
I	Is there any restriction on heights?
R	Yes, to prevent obstruction on the view side. For instance, you see the toilet there, you could see the view of the mountain before it was built. It shouldn’t have been built so high. There are several such issues.
I	What is the restriction, strictly speaking?
R	On Mall Road the shops used to be placed on only one side of the road. The plan was there since the colonial era.
I	You had mentioned about some of the changes necessary in this area, like hanging cables etc. Coming back to the topic of smart cities, there was meeting in this regard two years back. What do you know about it?
R	I have no connection to that.
I	Why? Did you attend the meeting?
R	No.
I	Why not?
R	I wasn’t aware of such a meeting.
I	You must have heard about it in the newspapers.
R	Yes. I have read about it in newspapers.
I	What have you heard about smart cities? What is the plan?
R	Smooth functioning of ambulances was one of the agendas. If they build the cable cars it would be a huge relief to the elderly as well it would be away from the congestion of the road.
I	What would be the smart component of a smart city in your view?
R	We would be able to get good Wi-Fi facilities and round-the-clock water supply. I read in the newspapers that this summer there would be no constraints on water supply.
I	It hasn’t been a big concern yet.
R	No. It has not been a huge concern yet.
I	There were some problems in water supply last year.
R	Not so much. We used to get an adequate supply of water barring a few days. People were mentally prepared for that. So it was not a huge problem. It is a problem for the government as well. They cannot fully release water.
I	You said a smart city should have Wi-Fi, water supply. What more?
R	There should be provision for vehicles or cableways to help the elderly have easy access to places uphill. Elevators and escalators reaching up to the Mall Road should be built. People living in Jakhu suffer a lot. Taxis are expensive for regular commuting. They ask for at least 650 rupees to come down here. Government should run public transport or at least decide on fixed fares. There should be bus services running and if it is late in the night, taxis should not be able to extort the public.
I	How do you commute from your home to your shop?
R	I live nearby. Hence, I walk to the market.
I	Yes. You had mentioned you live in Lower Jakhu. How long does it take for you to reach here?
R	It takes me ten minutes.
I	Is it above Mall Road?
R	Yes. We have to take stairs up the Mall Road, by the lady park.
I	I had read about plans of redevelopment of the properties in Lower Bazaar. What do you know about the plans?
R	First of all we need good roads on the hill. Easily accessible roads. It would be great to have a mall complex where all the shops can fit in. The viewpoints on the hill should not be blocked by the shops. The place should be clear like it was in the colonial times. The mountains should be visible without buildings obstructing it. It is the mountain view that makes this place beautiful.  There has been a flurry of construction activities in the last twenty to thirty years. It has changed the map of Shimla. All the major changes have taken place in the last fifty years.
I	You think it would be better if there was a clear view of the mountain from here?
R	Yes. It would be a beautiful sight.
I	Where would the shops go then?
R	They should develop malls where shops can fit into a single complex.
I	Where would that mall be?
R	It could be anywhere. It is the government’s job to find the place. The mayor of the town will have all necessary information.
I	What if your shop is moved some five km away?
R	Five kilometres is too far. It should be somewhere nearer. The marketplace should retain its name and space.
I	If the shops are shifted farther from Mall Road, what difference would it make?
R	It will make a huge difference.
I	There is a dearth of employment opportunities in this place.
R	If a shopping mall came up, we would be adjusted to it.
I	Most of the shops would shift there then.  Do you want shops on both sides of the road to be moved?
R	It depends on where the section comes up. The government has to check the information to decide where the road would open up. Mall Road is our heritage. That should be spared. Similarly, the mosque is a heritage site. We cannot meddle with such thing.
I	Do you mean the Kashmiri Mosque here in the middle of the town?
R	Yes.
I	As I see it from here, there seem to be some houses on this side?
R	Yes. There are houses too.
I	So what should be done about them?
R	I can’t say much about them
I	What do you think should be done to better the conditions of Lower Bazaar? We would like to know what people want from their town, their marketplace and their government.
R	Things are fine. If a shopping mall comes up, then that becomes the de facto marketplace. There should be one big marketplace.
I	You mean multi-storeyed complex?
R	Yes. A multi-story shopping mall or business towers like the ones you find in Delhi or Dubai or America.
I	You own this shop?
R	No. The municipal corporation owns my stall.
I	Do you pay rent to the corporation?
R	Yes.
I	What is the price range?
R	We pay very little as rent. All older shops pay very less.
I	If you are shifted to a new building, will a new rent price come into effect?
R	I hope the rent stays as it was before. It should not be taxing on people.
I	All the stalls here belong to the corporation?
R	Most of the stalls here are owned by the corporation. You will find a few private shops. The one in Thakur Bhrata is a private building and so are the shops on the road ahead.
I	Do you feel there is a risk of the corporation claiming your stalls?
R	No. There is no such risk.
I	There hasn’t been any such problem till now?
R	No. Never. A government is supposed to look after our welfare. Why would they trouble us? They usually do a good job.
I	What other problems would come up if the buildings are torn apart and the shops shifted elsewhere?
R	I can’t comment on the government’s plans. There are qualified and skilled engineers who will plan the things.
I	How will it affect the daily life of the people here?
R	Of course there will be some problems. There is an attachment to this place. If we are uprooted from this place, there will be some discomfort in the beginning. We will need time to be mentally prepared. The whole process has to be guided and hand-held by the government. Then it would be alright.
I	This is my final question. We know there are some places to which we are deeply attached. We are trying to develop a map according to the importance a place has in the minds of the people. We have developed an app for the purposes. You can download it on your phone. It is in a development phase right now. There are options here to provide information of the places you like best in the town. You can take a picture of the place when you are out on a walk and upload it here. The app will recognise and record the location on its own. You can mention why the place is important to you and how different would your life have been without it.
R	This is an advanced app. There is the Hanuman temple, Kali Bari temple here. The Bantony Castle used to be the police headquarters. Later the government had converted it into a museum of some sorts. The facade of that building should be preserved. It would be good to look at.
I	Is there such a heritage site in Lower Bazaar?
R	The mosque is one of the oldest features of this place.
I	Anything else?
R	That's it.
I	Anything at the farmers market or gunj?
R	No. The farmers market came up later.
I	When did the farmers market come up?
R	They have been there since ages.
I	What changes would you suggest for the farmers market? Do you go there?
R	Yes. All of us go the farmers market for fresh vegetables.
I	Is that area good or does it need any change?
R	The system at the farmers market is worse than the Lower Bazaar.
I	How so?
R	There is congestion. Roads are dirty due to garbage littered indiscriminately.
I	Is there no garbage collection done in that area?
R	There is regular collection of garbage. But it's a marketplace. Garbage is being constantly produced.
I	Were the fruit stalls shifted from here?
R	No.
I	They are still there. Okay. That would be all. I would like to take ten minutes of your time next week to install the app on your phone. You can upload pictures of places important to you in Lower Bazaar or on your way to home. That way we can collect information from at least 40 to 50 people.
R	There are only a few places important to me and I have already spoken about them to you.
I	Those were places of tourist importance. But we would like to know about places of local interest. I live in Delhi. For me there is a tea shop which is important to me.
R	There used to be designer water tap of lion heads spewing water from pipes at Mall Road from the British period. They were made of cast iron and were quite fascinating. Those kinds of things should be installed again. One such water tap exists at Adda khana. You make a short video of that thing. The taps used to have rounded fists on the side which we used to turn to drink water from the lion’s mouth. This was when I was a kid. Those designs should be reintroduced. You should take a picture of that.
I	This is near the post office?
R	It is ahead of the post office.
I	on the top or below?
R	It's up the hill.
I	Towards YWCA?
R	You have to look for it carefully. It is upwards, ahead of vehicles parked in a series. I see that every day. I have taken a snap of that too. I like it. Is the recording still on?
I	Shall I stop?
R	Don’t bother.
I	I could accompany you when you are walking towards that spot and you could guide me through it.
R	We can leave now if you want.
I	Actually our app is on testing mode now.
R	They are covered in dust. They should be cleaned. People should know such kinds of things existed in one period of time. There should also be a museum for the rickshaw that was drawn by four people. A few of such rickshaws could be remodelled and developed for the museum like the tongas that were being run in Delhi. It is nice to look at artefact.
I	They hold a lot of value.
R	Yes. It is invaluable. It is interesting to see that something like that existed one upon a time.
I	If they tear apart Lower Bazaar and move the shops into a mall, will you not be nostalgic of this place?
R	What can we do about that? We have to take care of the things at hand. We will be nostalgic about this place, but attachment is a different thing. Sometimes we are attached to things we find beautiful or impressionable.
I	What are you attached to in Lower Bazaar?
R	Nothing in specific.
I	Let me stop the recording.


SI010
I	is the date. Sir, first of all tell your name. 
D	My name is *** *** 
I	*** ***, okay. And what is your age? 
R	67 
I	Okay. This area is called Middle Bazaar? 
R	This is Mall Road. 
I	This is called Mall Road. Okay. So, let’s start with your shop – how old it is, when it was set up, tell me a little bit about its history. 
R	Okay. Our shop was set up in ’57. Before that my father used to run a canteen in school. He had a canteen. 
I	Okay. Which school?
R	Portmore School 
I	Portmore School. Is it in Shimla? 
R	Yes. It’s a very famous school. He had the canteen for fourteen years. From there he (indistinct) and then he bought this shop. After buying the shop, he left his canteen. 
I	Has it always been a salted snacks business or was it something else in the beginning? 
R	In the beginning the shop used to sell choley (chickpeas) but there was no time to rest. 
I	Yes, it must have required a lot of time. 
R	We couldn’t shut shop if there was any strike in the bazaar (market). 
I	Why? 
R	Because others dealt in raw materials but (the problem) with chickpeas... once it’s boiled, after a while they turn and give out an odour... they must be disposed of after that. 
I	Yes, it will go to waste 
R	And the biggest issue was the long hours – from morning 4 to 11 at night, there was no life (outside work)... it’s not that my father was scared, business was very good.. the reason he left was he wasn’t getting any personal time. He couldn’t get out of work before 11 at night and then he would wake up early to boil the peas – this is why he left that work 
I	And then he started his salted snacks business? 
R	Yes. (indistinct) My father... he had the same business in Pakistan 
I	Okay. So, did he migrate from there? 
R	Yes 
I	From where? 
R	Kasoor. He brought his business from Kasoor and started here. People here did not know what salted snacks were. They didn’t even know how to use turmeric while cooking vegetables or that other spices can be used in cooking. Back then, they would prepare vegetables and meat simply by boiling and adding salt and pepper. It’s only now that it has changed. 
I	Okay. Where are you originally from? Were you born in Shimla? 
R	Yes, I was born in Shimla. My father came to Shimla with ... with Mr. *** *** and his family. He was the Tehsildar here in Shimla... he probably didn’t tell you, but I will tell you that my father stayed at their house for a long time 
I	Then after that... 
R	After that they must have had an argument over something... when people live together such altercations are possible... then after that (my father) started on his own. People hide these things but we don’t. Soon after my father got his canteen at Portmore. 
I	How long have you been managing this shop? 
R	I started out in business when I was 9 years old 
I	At such a young age? Okay 
R	When my father was at Portmore, he used to provide refreshments to the ACC, NCC and scout (cadets) and my job was, after school when those activities would usually begin and since I was also studying there, to bring those refreshments to them. Although the teachers distributed it, I was required to get the necessary signatures in the format in the register. This is how I gradually got greedy (for work)... then I used to think the cash inside the cash box is entirely ours. It is only later I found out that it’s only the profit, which is ours and that the rest belongs to others. This is how the greed kept increasing.
I	Do you own the shop or is it rented? 
R	It’s rented 
I	Okay. From the corporation or private? 
R	Private 
I	Private. Where is the owner from? 
R	His elders are from Lahore. But he is from Shimla. 
I	He is from Shimla. What does he do? 
R	He owns the Samsung shop in front of mine. 
I	Have you always been in this rented shop or has there been any change? 
R	Before this, there was someone named Mr. Ramlal who later sold it to him. 
I	But, the tenant has always been you? 
R	Yes, tenant was always me. 
I	Okay 
R	It’s been long... 
I	And it has been continuing ever since... so, has it ever happened that they increased the rent because I have heard it happened in Lower Bazaar 
R	The rent used to be very low... INR 225- 250 per year. So sometimes there will be an increase. I have never refused as we should move with time. Now I pay 40,000 Rupees. If he had done this as per law, this increase wouldn’t be possible because even if you increase rent by 10% every five years, you can’t reach a very big figure. At most, it would have gone up to 700 or 1000 Rupees. But, I have always compromised because I understand these things... as I own a few shops too and it could be happening to me. 
I	So, have you given your shops on rent? 
R	Yes. (indistinct) 
I	What’s that? 
R	I have a building. I had it built. 
I	Okay. What happens there? Where is this building? 
R	I have given it on rent. 
I	Okay. In Lower Bazaar? 
R	No, it’s in Kachi Ghati. 
I	Kachi Ghati. Where is it? 
R	The area near Taraganj... close to Sankat Mochan is entirely Kachi Ghati. 
I	Okay. Let’s talk about Lower Bazaar now. I know you have been managing this shop for a long time now, so you must have seen many changes in this area. So, if you think back to old days, can you tell me your first memory of this place. 
R	My first memory of this place would be that the shops did not have decorations or show windows back then. 
I	Okay. How was it like then? 
R	For example – earlier the sweetmeat places used to display their snacks and sweets on plates or in deep pans on top of a table outside their shops. Do you understand? They used to keep sweets (rasgullas and gulabjamuns) on plates which they would cover with a piece of cloth at times. The cooks used to prepare these sweets by blending the dough using a dabbi. You don’t see anyone working them anymore. 
I	Yes, now they just display sweets that have already been prepared from before. 
R	No, it’s not about that. Now they engage in short cuts. We call it a dabbi – a wooden blending stick with a round knob at one end – which was used to blend the sweet dough into a smooth butter like texture. You don’t get to see it anymore. 
I	Yes. I have never seen it. Okay, so what about other shops? We talked about sweetmeat shops…
R	Yes, that was about sweet shops. Other shops were also never this fancy. 
I	Okay. How were they like? 
R	The betelnut (bidi-cigarette) shops used to be very simple. They used to have the betel leaves out in the open and the prepared leaf (paan) used to be displayed in the shop. They are gradually becoming very fancy. Even the biscuits used to be open. The packaging started much later. The lozenges used to be in bottles… back in our day we used to get this toffee called Morton – you don’t get them anymore. It used to be milk-based and it was delicious. 
I	I have also not seen it. 
R	How will you see it? 
I	How will I see it? Okay. What else has changed in all these years in Lower Bazaar? 
R	See, the most important thing was the tourists back in the day used to come here to have a good time. The mountains and greenery around Shimla used to provide them with fresh air to breathe. They won’t just come here for a weekend; they would in fact stay for 10-15 days. People were more honest in those days. They used to hire utensils from pawn shops and cook rice and lentils on stoves inside their houses. They would then go out to Mall Road during the day or in the evenings. Sometimes they would shop in the market. Sometimes the more affluent families... vehicles were not allowed on Mall Road. There were very few people. Even radios were not allowed to be played on Mall Road. Although rickshaws were allowed. I might have an old picture somewhere... Four men used to pull one rickshaw. People used to ride those to roam around and enjoy the city. We had heard that back when the British were here and the Viceroy would come to visit the city, he would park his vehicle at the bridge and then travel the rest of the distance on foot or a rickshaw. His vehicle would come round to the tower house where he would get back on it and leave. So, vehicles were never allowed on Mall Road. The road used to get washed with water every day. 
I	The roads used to be washed with water? Roads in Lower Bazaar as well? 
R	Yes. Lower Bazaar roads as well. There is this thing called musk – I don’t know its name in English – it’s made of leather and is used with water to clean the roads by the zamaadars in Lower Bazaar. It has been ages since I have seen those. 
I	When was this? 
R	1960-62. Before that, the water... there were no overhead tanks on the terraces of Shimla. I am talking about my own house. We used to have 24x7 water supply. 
I	So there was no need to store it 
R	Yes. Then one time there was a cut for cleaning the water tanks. And the cut was such that it still hasn’t left. 
I	What do you mean by there was a cut? 
R	There was a cut means in order to clean the water tanks, after informing the public, they cut the water supply. But the cut hasn’t ended till date. 
I	When was this? 
D	I cannot tell the exact year. 
I	No, just roughly 10, 20 years back? 
R	I don’t have that information with me. It was after that they installed these overhead tanks. Initially we would get water in the mornings and evenings and gradually it was reduced to just once a day. As a result, people started installing tanks in their houses. There is not one terrace without a plastic water tank. 
I	Okay, like everywhere else 
R	When somebody would fall ill or when there was a wedding, they used to bring them in on a rickshaw. 
I	Rickshaws were very common back then… 
R	They were not many but there used to be a shed here where they would be parked. We used to go there and bring them with us. And there used to be many trees here in Lower Bazaar which were cut down gradually. 
I	Okay. There were trees in Lower Bazaar? I don’t see a single tree now when I go there. 
R	The shopkeepers started trimming the branches and eventually… 
I	They (trees) were all (gone) 
R	Yes 
I	When did so many shopkeepers come to Lower Bazaar? There are so many shops and hawkers now... when did it happen? 
R	First of all I might have a picture somewhere of the road... The government started giving provisions to the refugees who came from outside for them to earn a living. They used to sit wherever they would find a place but were later given stalls. All those stalls that you see in Lower Bazaar today were all built for them back then. 
I	So, these stalls were given to the hawkers? 
R	Hawkers as in, they used to somehow eke out a living. They finally settled down for good. Now the Sadhanpuris here want more access to the city. So, after one person gets here, they bring a relative to join them. As a result, the number of hawkers is going up. 
I	So they are all coming from Sadhanpur? 
R	Most of them are from Sadhanpur. 
I	Okay. When did the migration start surging? 
R	It has surged in the last 10-15 years. So, some of these hawkers went to Vir Bhadra Singhji. They requested that their things should not be moved and that they are poor. Vir Bhadra Singhji asked them, “tell me one thing- How many people who have set up a tariya in Lower Bazaar are from Himachal?” They did not have any answer to that. He said however that he will make arrangements for all of them... that he will get them stalls. But we can’t help them as they sell their stalls and come back here again. For example, if someone is selling fruit and I set up a tea shop for them near High Court, out of their greed to make more money, they would sell that shop and come back here to do their business again. 
I	Because he was making more money here... 
R	Now most stalls have moved inside the city as the markets in the outskirts are all gone. 
I	Which markets are gone? 
R	Earlier, all customers used to come to Lower Bazar. .But now New Shimla has its own market. Kasumpti has its own market. Sanjauli used to be deserted between 10 and 5 during the day. And now you can’t take your vehicle across easily.
I	Yes, that is a very crowded market. 
R	It is quite crowded now. Am I right? So, this was the situation earlier which has now changed. 
I	So has the number of customers come down here in Lower Bazaar? 
R	Definitely. The population is increasing with every day. Kastoor is also divided now. You also understand this. So, that makes a lot of difference. There were many offices around. US Club used to have many. RDSO was here. PWD and CPWD offices were all here. When Punjab was formed, some offices moved to Chandigarh. Who else is going to be affected if not the city? One more thing is that, Shimla has never been lucky enough to have a leader worthy of the city. 
I	Okay. Why? 
R	People who were at the top had a dislike for those who came from outside – from Punjab or Pakistan. 
I	Okay. People in the government or the Himachalis? 
R	And whenever someone from Himachal took charge, they never tried to correct Shimla. 
I	Why? 
R	The reason was Raja Vir Bhadra Singhji couldn’t have his way otherwise he would have taken Shimla up to the capital Rampur. 
I	Why? 
R	Before him, there was Mr. Dhumal. His attempts were to take most of the offices from here to Hamirpur, to develop Hamirpur and make that the capital of the state.  Earlier Shimla was the capital throughout the year, but they moved the winter capital to Dharamshala. So everyone attempted... 
I	Who were these people? 
R	Raja Vir Bhadra Singhji was the CM. Mr. Dhumal was also the CM. They all tried to move the capital to their hometowns. Shimla had to bear the brunt. RDSO office was here which was later moved to Lucknow. The Western Command offices moved to Chandigarh Then came Area Command but the Western Command used to bring a lot of rush to our market on Saturdays and Sundays. They used to get out on day-offs on Saturdays and Sundays. The food shops used to be very crowded even though everything was available inside at their canteen and cheaper. But when one visits a market, they tend to snack, buy what they like to eat and sometimes children demand their parents buy them something. These things affect a market and its businesses. 
I	So these changes have had some effect. If we now talk about the market as it stands today, what do you like the most about it? 
R	The best thing about Shimla has been that…. though now the atmosphere is changing gradually... people who reside here... this place is like “silent city” which means, if you don’t mind, for example, you are safe even if you’re walking on the roads here with ten lakh rupees on you. The women here can walk decked up in jewellery on Mall Road at 11 in the night and there will be no instances of mugging. This doesn’t happen as you move down. 
I	Down as in? 
R	Down means outside Shimla like Chandigarh, Delhi and Bombay. This is why artificial jewellery has become more common these days as people prefer them over wearing real gold. 
I	It is very common in Delhi. 
R	Am I right? Here you can go out wearing (gold) and nobody will touch you. And we want that it stays the same in future. 
I	This is a plus point... 
R	It’s the biggest plus point. The business is slow here and the margin is higher, yet we can afford our bread 
I	And, what about places like Lower Bazaar and sabzi mandi – do they have any good characteristics that should be maintained? 
R	The government should build small picnic spots in and around Shimla. The biggest difficulty here is that a child cannot grow up to be a sportsman here. 
I	Why? 
R	Because they don’t have a single good playground here to play at. Where will they play? They cannot play inside their homes. 
I	Yes, there are no parks here. 
R	Yes, the parks are also not very big. It’s good that they have built a Sports place, but the government should put in more effort. 
I	When was it built? The Sports Complex. 
R	This was built some 8-10 years ago. 
I	Do people use it? 
R	Yes, it is used quite a bit. 
I	I am coming back to Lower Bazaar as our project focuses on these areas of Lower Bazaar and Sabzi Mandi Gunj below Mall Road. What are some things here that need to change? Is there anything lacking? What do you not like about these areas? 
R	I don’t like the current system of maintaining cleanliness. There was a time when the roads were swept twice a day. Now, even once is rare. I am speaking candidly only because you are not going to disclose my name. 
I	Yes, absolutely. 
R	Because some people may have a problem. 
I	Absolutely. Names won’t be disclosed. There’s nothing to worry. 
R	Am I right? Now as we talk about cleanliness in the area, they never clean the drains in the area. Nor does any officer ever come to inspect the work. 
I	Nobody comes from the Corporation? 
R	No, they don’t do any work except on paper. 
I	Tell me little bit more about this... 
R	With so many outsiders here and with the increasing number of stalls, the market has become very cramped... the population has only increased and the “tightness” (cramped spaces) is a problem.
I	So, the streets are also… 
R	Because they sit wherever they want and if the market stops moving then it’s a problem 
I	That’s right. So, there’s a need to take measures about it. And which areas in Lower Bazaar and Gunj do you like? 
R	The situation in Gunj right now is that the businesses have stopped in that area. 
I	How was it like before? 
R	Back then the business used to be very good. 
I	It used to be grains market, right? 
R	Yes. It was a grains market and it used to do good business because the grains that used to go up the hills went from this market. Now the hill families have started getting their grains directly from Chandigarh. Now, one condition for the shops there was they had to bring the products down to the main road which was labour-intensive. Now the hill people who got their goods from here would have them brought down to the main road, loaded on a truck... and there are no parking lots... parking is also an issue... you need to park the vehicles somewhere to load and unload the goods. If there is no space, what can they do? They would need to come here every 2-3 days, why would they continue shopping at this market? Say, a loaded truck comes up here, the cops would first stop and charge their chai-paani; the truck can only come here if the cops give him a spot to park. If they don’t it would come again in the evening or try again next morning. This is why people fear bringing their vehicles to Shimla This is the problem with hills. You need to park vehicles for loading and unloading. This is one of the reasons why Shimla’s businesses have suffered. Earlier, the wholesale businesses used to happen in Sabzi Mandi Gunj, but now they have shifted part of the business to Dhalli vegetable market 
I	Does it still happen here? 
R	Now it has reduced. 
I	Is this a good or a bad development? 
R	Now this place only gets goods that can be sold inside the city. Sometimes goods are brought from Dhalli vegetable market as well.. the shopkeepers are all from Himachal however. 
I	So was it a good thing that the market was moved to Dhalli? 
R	The difference now is that the apple crates that used to be lined up on the road in the morning have disappeared 
I	So that has reduced? And that’s a good thing? 
R	Yes, it was a good thing.
I	Now if we talk about the future and things that are being planned for Shimla, things that should be including policies – for example, if we talk about Smart City... 
R	About Smart City... the officers only inspect the front parts of the buildings when they should be checking the backs as well. Anything can look good from the front... 
I	Meaning? Which areas? 
R	Let me give you a small example – here’s a chair, it looks fine from the front, but you should also check the other side to see what the back is like. What I mean is, the buildings in Lower Bazaar the shops have been decorated from the front, but the side in the back tells a different story – water is leaking from the tanks, walls are broken – now this is what they should see. It’s not Smart City until these things are fixed. Nothing happened in Lower Bazaar but when you visit Cart Road you may have water drip down on your head... or somebody like me might throw an orange peel from (the floors) upstairs. This is just an example. Now if this happens you cannot say anything to anybody... 
I	Yes, we wouldn’t even know where it came from. 
R	What I mean is, all these officers should check both sides – front and back – it’s only then we can have a Smart City. 
I	What’s the situation now regarding Smart City? 
R	There’s absolutely nothing happening... 
I	Were there any meetings? Did you attend any ward meetings in the last 1-2 years? Have you been to one with others?
R	Yes, there was a meeting but I did not attend it. 
I	Okay. So, what else do we understand by Smart City? 
R	Smart City is only possible when... for example – plastic; until there’s awareness among ourselves, we cannot change anything. Hope you don’t mind... When we see plastic, we should remember that plastic is waste, and we should dispose it of properly inside the waste bins. Keep them to one side. The people from Corporation will come and take it with them. What does it say if we can’t even use the waste bins properly? We need to have this awareness. There has been one good change – for example, we have seen this since childhood, that customers will come in winters with peanuts in their hands. And where did they discard the shells? On the road. Now people are aware and nobody eats peanuts on the road. Even if they do, they make sure they dispose the leftovers in a bin. 
I	So, this change has happened gradually? 
R	Yes. Other changes should also happen in the same way. 
I	So you said two things about Smart City – first is that officers should not only inspect the front but the back of the building also. 
R	Whenever buildings are surveyed instead of looking at them from the front, they should be inspected from all sides. The front is fine but what’s on the back... 
I	But how can it be done? For example – in Lower Bazaar... 
R	Not just in Lower Bazaar, it’s everywhere. After all, what are their officers and engineers for? 
I	But, why hasn’t it happened yet? Was there any difficulty? 
R	Any person would fear talking about this because the officers here would be after them. Now, suppose I speak about some politician, they would say, “haven’t you said something about me?”. They would make sub-inspectors and sample guys chase after you. They would set the cops after you. So, everyone is scared to say anything against these people – (they say), “why should I care? Why should I antagonise them?” It is said that there is freedom when there is none. This is me talking candidly to you. I can’t say a single word against an officer. If he doesn’t say anything, his colleague will that this person has said something against our “sir”.
I	So this is one reason no one says anything... 
R	People say why get in trouble... 
I	Yes, why get in trouble... So, if we talk about Smart City again, have there been discussions or planning about Wi-Fi or anything related to technology? Should there be such discussions? Should the government consider these things?
R	For Smart City, they should focus on roads, buildings and cleanliness on roads... it becomes a Smart City when it is clean. 
I	Okay, so that’s more important... 
R	That’s primary. I’ll talk about this building. I have nailed tin sheets outside this building that work as walls. When you see that, would you call it a Smart City? It’s a small thing. The government should provide some help in mending these buildings in Lower Bazaar on the verge of damage. If that doesn’t work, they should rebuild. Some of these buildings are as old as Shimla city. Some of them are in ruins yet they don’t collapse because they were made using old technology which was far better from the technology they use today. They have 3-foot-thick walls that are called dhajji walls. They don’t even break during earthquakes and secondly, they stay warm in winters and cool in summers. Now they only work in concrete. So, the government should provide help to these old dilapidated buildings. When they are rebuilt, they would look better and that’s when it will become Smart City. 
I	I was reading the proposal on Smart City and it says there that the Lower Bazaar area would be developed and some of its buildings will be renovated, so, how do you think these buildings should be renovated? 
R	Look it’s not that easy to develop Lower Bazar. 
I	Why? 
R	Its condition is such that the shops are not aligned. The building fronts are off by either 2 feet forward or 4 feet the other way. How would you align these shops? You have seen the market... 
I	Yes, it’s not linear. 
R	Yes, it is not linear right then how would you align it? 
I	Then, what should be done? 
R	It’s not that easy. Even if these buildings are demolished and rebuilt, it’s not an easy task. The landscape is hilly. If the building in this lane is taken down, there is a chance for the land behind it to give in as it’s hilly. Then, where would be dump the debris? There will be a lot of resulting debris after all. When I rebuilt this house, it took me two years. It was an old building and at least twenty trucks of debris came out along with five trucks of wooden bars and beams. These walls that you see had wooden bars fitted inside arranged in an angle with rocks filling up the gaps. If you had seen this house before it was rebuilt, you wouldn’t have dared stepped inside. It really needed mending. After submitting several requests, I was able to erect these pillars. Two at first and after another round of requests I put two more out in the front. I told the owner, “Look, how beautiful is your house now, you don’t even have a water problem. We should put two more pillars in the front...”. This is how I gradually had the place rebuilt.
I	So what you’re saying is you had to coordinate with the people who live downstairs...
D	With those upstairs also. Plus, I had to invest my own money. If you look carefully at the walls upstairs, they still look like Lakshman Jhoola (metaphor for sagging may be). Now they regret it but when I was having the pillars raised, they refused to have them extended up to their floor. They said, “why should we spend any money?” I said, “suit yourself as otherwise we will have the protruding iron bars bent back into the concrete surface”. They asked us to go ahead with it and now they are regretting for not having the pillars built. This is the condition. It’s not so easy to have these buildings demolished and rebuilt.
I	So even if the government begins some work here... 
R	The biggest issue is most of the people here are corrupt. They would spend 10 rupees and write 1000 rupees in the paperwork. 
I	Rest goes in their pocket? That’s another concern – even if they build new buildings... 
R	They would inflate expenditure by building a structure for 1 crore rupees when it may have only costed 10 lakhs. There’s another aspect – for example, even if you are re-building this chair, you may not replicate it exactly. The measurements can vary. They make a ruckus over small variations such as, “this was 11 feet before, why is it 11.25 now?” Then we pay penalty for that. 
I	Is the Corporation that strict about penalties? 
R	They are not strict but the officers meddle in... They look for issues that can get them money. (No conversation) 
I	They nit-pick... 
R	Yes, they must nit-pick 
I	But, this is a challenge that it’s a hilly area, buildings are old not aligned and officers have their own politics... 
R	And look how old this market is. Back then, nobody thought that if we set up a market in a space of 800 bighas, we might need this route for heavy vehicles to pass. Now, they make these big fire brigade vehicles through the market which is very inconvenient for us. They didn’t plan for this back then. My father used to say the Britishers allotted space for a fee of 5 or 10 rupees back then. They placed these trees and rocks in the middle and the soil kept receding. This is how this road was formed. This area has always been hilly after all. 
I	And what do the people think here in Lower Bazaar? Do they also want the area to be re-developed? 
R	Every person wants to see this city become beautiful.
I	If tomorrow the government chooses to begin some work, would that have an effect on the people here? Would there be any inconvenience? 
R	Look, people would definitely want that. They are only annoyed by the distressing intricacies. Another issue is that once a building gets rebuilt, what assurance is there that the owner would give the place to the same tenants? Where would you even put this clause? The rents might hike up. The owners might say, “Why should I give you the place for 3000 rupees, when I can get 30,000 for it.” 
I	This is also a challenge. Where would all these people go? 
R	Now look, one building takes two years to build. What happens to the business for those two years? Where would they go? 
I	And it will be a huge loss to the business... .. how will they make a living? 
R	Yes, they need to make a living. What would they do? 
I	So, there are all these challenges. Is there anything else you would like to tell me about Shimla? If there’s any problem... we have talked about a lot of things, you have told me so much... is there any other issue that you would in the end like to discuss?
R	I can only answer when you come up with a topic 
I	Okay, then my last question would be what kind of issues should be the focus of new schemes and policies drafted for urban development in the city? What are some of the main challenges for the people here in Shimla? What do people want from their city in future? 
R	Every person wants a clean city because if the city is clean then our children are healthy. If they get good education, they can go places. But in the minds of the people in Shimla, it has been embedded that, first, business is depleting gradually. Secondly, people feel that Shimla has been rendered a city for refugees (00:47:11 – not clear). And that’s the cause. Another cause is there is no industry here, nor there is any scope for children to get a job here. Government doesn’t have any jobs so those who are educated migrate to Chandigarh, Delhi or Gurgaon. This has led to a brain-drain of our city and the depletion of its cream layer. 
I	Yes, that’s a problem... There are no opportunities for children here. 
R	And, why? If someone steps out of here, they are not going to come back. And if the people today are still here, they are here for the quiet, not for money. As a matter of fact, there is not a lot of money (to make) here. There’s only quiet. 
I	Yes. It’s a quiet city. 
R	Yesterday, my brother was at our shop. What he does is that when he leaves his home for the shop... everyone has bicycles here... his first task after getting to his shop is to make a call to his family back home to let them know he has reached safely. Then, when he leaves work, he calls again to tell them he is on his way back. If there is a jam on the road, he calls to tell there is a jam and that he can’t say how long it will take (for the traffic) to clear out. He knows his family will be worried if he doesn’t make it by the usual time. Then he gets home once the road is open again. It only means that he doesn’t feel secure about making the journey to his shop... that whether employees will safely get to their offices. When someone leaves home, it should be certain that the person will make it to their shop safely. I am not saying that he will be mugged but accidents are also possible. Anything can happen. Now the business class always have cash on them, so snatching or mugging is possible. So, these things are cause of some worry. 
I	You mentioned a few old pictures of Lower Bazaar. If you could show them to me, it would be very good. Because we are trying to map the changes that have come about in Shimla- how Lower Bazaar looks now versus then. 
R	Back then, Lower Bazaar or any other city had 1-foot-high wooden planks (phatte) instead of shutters which are currently in use. Secondly, now we have these angular latches whereas earlier we used to have covers (tirpal) that needed to be supported by bamboo beams. I had those in pictures, let me... 
I	I can see them some other time. You can take your time. But I would like to see those pictures. 
R	Okay. I am trying to remember where they are. I had a few on my memory card as well. 
I	Keep them handy. Or you can click them and send them to me. Whatever you... Otherwise, I can drop in sometime on my way... 
R	Yes, I can also send them to you. I have them somewhere... You must have lunch with us before you leave. 
I	I have a few other people to visit. It’s only 11.30 right now. 
R	Sure. Do you have any other questions? 
I	No, that’s all. I just had these questions. If you don’t mind, may I ask your caste? 
R	We are Rajputs. 
I	Okay. These were all my questions. I might visit again on my way sometime if I have any follow up questions after going through my notes and if you happen to find the pictures, please let me know. 
R	I will look for them. 
I	Okay. I will give you my number. I am also here on WhatsApp. You can text me or call me. 
R	So, you’re Taneja. Tanejas are from Pisod? 
I	Pakhtun, yes. 
R	Right? 
I	Absolutely. Yes. 
R	There are many Tanejas abroad, right? 
I	Yes 
R	There are many in Chamba and Shimla as well. (No audio) 


SI011
I	Thank you very much, sir. So, let’s just begin. No, that’s not a problem. Sorry. I didn’t tell you my name. My name is *** *** and I am here for three months working on this research project. So, could you tell me something about your background – your name, age and... 
A	My name is *** ***. I have studied only in Himachal Pradesh. Though my family comes from Pakistan – district Sarvodha. Now it’s an Army base in Pakistan – it’s a very big base. (indistinct) From there, we came to Shimla before partition in 1938. My birth is in 1938. I was born in Amritsar and my mother shifted to Shimla. Immediately at that time, Shimla had a population of 10,000 -15,000 people. After partition, people from North East Pakistan, from a place called Para Chinnari, shifted to Shimla and the population increased. Moreover, Shimla was entirely cut off from the interior of Himachal Pradesh. Beyond winters, people did not come to Shimla at all, if at all they did they used to come in a very bad state. I should say, they had potatoes... in Shimla there used to be one lakh... Road was not how it is today... The portion beyond town hall had no way... and there were no cars in Shimla at all. People used to walk where-ever they went. Before that, there were rickshaws pulled by four people. That is an old story. There was poverty. This shop that I have today... people used to live in Shimla only for six months. And in winters they used to shift back to villages in Kamra, Deha and other places. There was no business between Shimla and the upper part of Himachal Pradesh. If at all there was any, it was through mules. Do you understand what mules are? There were no roads at all. When I started my business in the year 1955... the business was already there, my father had started it... we were working on a very small scale... 
I	Was it the same business? In ghee? 
R	Only ghee. In Himachal Pradesh, people are very fond of eating ghee. In one wedding, 4-6 tins of ghee are used... they take raw ghee and they use it 
I	Used in food or in prayer and pooja as well? 
R	Not in pooja. Only food. They used to take it. As and when those days went by and the next generation took over, the prices... from 6 to 5 to 4... kept dropping. I was studying in DAV School, Shimla. 
I	Okay, the one in Lakkar Bazaar? 
R	... at that time there were only shirts, pants and a tux coat. Teaching was done old-style. The headmaster... he was a very strong person... his name was *** ***. There were two main schools in Shimla – DAV school and HT school. Only two schools. And the very rich in Shimla, say people like Raisahabs...  ...those who were given titles by the British used to study in St. Edward’s School or BCS school. There used to be a gap between them and us which we still haven’t been able to bridge. But now that our children have also gone to these schools, they have managed to fill up this gap. 
I	So, they are now in Edward’s and BCS? 
R	For example, Jallianwala Bagh... the person who had ordered the firing... General Dyer... was an alumnus of BCS Cotton. So, there were British students studying there. (indistinct) was a place where no Hindus... no Indians were allowed. and if at all they went, they used to go in black coats and white trousers and turbans... and only those who had received titles from the British like Raisahabs. These stairs that you see, if any Indian took them by mistake, the British used to bind their hands and legs and throw them down those stairs. At that time, they used to take care of cleanliness and it was possible because of the abundant water that was available to them back then. The water was stored in tanks that were built after the British got here. Those tanks used to be full. Now we bring tankers to fill up our tanks but in those days no tankers were allowed nor were there any vehicles. The first time I saw a vehicle was in 1955 or 60... 1960 and that was the first vehicle I came from Valubhai to Shimla. Otherwise, for people to go from Lakkadbagha to Singholi, there used to be cycles. We used to pay them 1 Anna and the cycle used to drop us at Singholi. And on our way back, we would again pay an Anna to get here. You got my point? Apart from this, water was used for cleaning using something called a Musk. 
I	Using what? 
R	Musk Musk 
I	What’s a Musk? 
R	Do you know what Musk is? 
I	No 
R	It is made of goatskin. The hide is cleaned in a way that the mouth is open, and the rest is sewed up. The Musk is then used to sprinkle water and wash things. These businesses were not there. 
I	These stalls were not there? 
R	These stalls were not there. It’s called a bhishti. Only this tribe was here. 
I	Then, what was here? Was it empty? 
R	It was empty. I mean mainly the reason why people would set up shops here was they could be guarded on a payment of 2 or 3 Rupees/month. I got this shop for 400 Rupees per year including the clothes he had kept in it. It was a cloth shop and I got this shop including the clothes and furniture in it for 400 Rupees per year. 
I	Is it still on rent? 
R	It is still on rent. The children of the owner have it now... though we tried our best to (buy the place) and gave them cheques... gradually Shimla’s reputation grew and when you’re working somewhere and there is growth, people usually don’t want to sell their places and they feel that this person can pay more than what he is offering. This is why it is still not sold yet. We will get another place if we find somewhere else... Moreover, I am over 80 now... 82-year-old and I studied in DAV till 10th. I was a badminton player. Played all-India... Captain from the state of Punjab and I participated in music and singing. Back then and even now, a Captain is more important in Shimla than a General in Delhi. 
I	No, what does that mean? 
R	You didn’t get my point? 
I	No, not this time. 
R	Can you tell me one difference between a Captain and a Major... a Captain and a General? 
I	A General is higher up in hierarchy. 
R	A General is very much higher up in hierarchy. 
I	Very much higher... Right 
R	A General would not be as respected in Delhi as a Captain would be in Shimla. 
I	Why is that? 
R	Because it’s a small place. Everybody knows each other. I have a fortune valued in lakhs while people in Delhi have fortunes worth crores. I am respected here by everybody but a Crorepati (multi-millionaire) won’t be respected in Delhi because they would say everybody is a Crorepati there. A multi-millionaire here is (equivalent to) a billionaire there. So, we prefer to live in Shimla for three reasons – one is trust for each other, then respect for your personality and yourself and the seasons. You would be wearing a jacket here throughout the year. If you go to Chandigarh, you won’t need so many layers to keep warm. 
I	Yeah, it’s very hot. 
R	When the pahadis (people from hills) go to Delhi, they don’t leave any clothes behind. They put on everything. And when asked if there are too hot in them, they say, “how can it be hot if the heat doesn’t even get inside?” So, the people were innocent. But not the current generation. This generation is different. Now they go to Chandigarh, Bangalore and Bombay to study. They are rich... growing apples. Potatoes were the only things that were produced here back then. They had a lot of money back then as well, but they did not know how to spend it. All they spent it was on ghee, cattle, wine and other indulgences. But now they know how and where to spend their money.
I	Where are they spending it now? 
R	Now they are spending on good things – clothes, education, food. You will see a huge difference between clothes from those days and now. They used to bathe on a yearly basis, then monthly, then they started bathing weekly and now they bathe daily. Now, if you have any questions about Shimla you can ask. Third person Let me tell you the total population for whom this structure was created- like electricity, roads, water- was only for 26,000 people. With infrastructure remaining almost the same and may be with slight changes, the population has gone up to 2.6 lakh... almost 3 lakhs. With the same infrastructure.... You can well imagine what the hazards could be. The government is working but they need to struggle more. The government needs to struggle more. Shimla was the country capital for six months before it moved to Calcutta and then eventually moving to Delhi. So, for six months only Shimla was better in my memory. 
I	You said you had set up the shop in 1955... so this shop was set up in 1955? 
R	Yes 
I	And you have been managing it since then? 
R	I am managing but my son who did his BE from Delhi College of Engineering started his new business which is our new product. Have you heard of Minchy’s? 
I	Minchy’s, yes, I have heard of it and I have also heard of their jam... 
R	We have got two factories – one is in Shoghi and one is in Sadhopur. 100 people are working there. And, my son, daughter-in-law and my grandson look after that. We are only just helping them however we can. 
I	Wow, that is so nice. So, I want to now talk about Lower Bazaar a little bit. I want to understand its history – like when it was set up and why... 
R	Lower Bazaar was set up in 1838. But it was only built for the shopping needs of the residents of Shimla. Very few tourists would come here. There was no business in Mall Road till 1955. Because, this market was established, and the buyers were mainly hill people. And there was only one market for them which was Shimla and Lower Bazaar... and Gunj Bazaar... Main market. This is a part of that. Gunj Bazaar was built by Corporation of Shimla and there are still those who are tenants of the Corporation. Now they have shifted to different... (indistinct) So, this is how Shimla was. There is only tunnel here that was built in 1901. 
I	Rivoli tunnel? 
R	Yes, Rivoli tunnel. 
I	When was it built? 
R	1901. Third person the rail decision came in 1903. The railway was completed in 1903. First railway in November 1903. You can note that also. They have already completed a century. 
I	Yes, in 2003. Third person in 2003 
R	So the tunnel is built. Then after a lot of tussle, Jama Masjid (Main Mosque) was built and the stairs were built to go up. 
I	It’s the one that falls next to the tunnel? 
R	There is only one Jama Majid here. It is the only big mosque around here. And, the business is very good but for six months. People used to stock their goods for six months. And for six months they used to come and buy. For six months this area used to shift to (indistinct) Somebody is from here, somebody is from Una, and other places – they used to go back. Gradually this place was developed and after 1947 when people shifted here for good, the Corporation built stores to settle them. And this portion was also developed. 
I	So, the portion in the front developed after migration... 
R	These were built a little earlier – these pucca shops. The stalls were built after 1947. And then many people migrated here and settled down, but business was good till 1980. Then Raja from Janata Party got elected in 1976-77 who developed Parvaanu. 
I	What is that? Parvaanu? Where is Parvaanu? 
R	It’s on the border of Himachal Pradesh 
I	Border of...? Himachal Pradesh
R	That was developed. Businessmen shifted to that place. And the hill people (pahadis) shifted their purchases from Shimla to Parvaanu. And it was not good for business here. 
I	Okay, so the business here suffered? 
R	It suffered a little. There was work till 1963. Chinese war happened in 1962 during which time the business was very good. Rampur and other areas – the business was very good. We were flourishing at that time. My son started his juice business. And it started this way – Shanta Kumar was the chief minister at that time. I went to him. He was very close to me. I told him that I want to start a business. I needed wheat flour and… 
I	You will start this business as in? Of pickles? Okay, juices. 
R	Apples are in abundance here. You crush it and… We did not have any knowledge about this. He gave leave to one of the government employees for six months and appointed him here. And that’s how we established it. (indistinct) So, ask me more about Lower Bazaar.
I	What other changes have you seen happen here in Lower Bazaar? 
R	Cleanliness 
I	Cleanliness. It’s not clean anymore. How long ago was this? 
R	It used to be very clean in those days. They used to wash the roads daily. There were no dirty patches. Now if you go near a public washroom here and take a picture you would wonder how bad it is. You cannot stand in those places for more than ten minutes. I will give you 10 Rupees if you can. This is the condition of cleanliness these days. Although there is a new place called New Shimla, which has been developed and 50% of the population have shifted there. The rents there even till 1968-69 were around 4 Annas. Do you know what Annas are? 
I	Yes. 1 Paisa was 25… No? Actually, I don’t remember. (indistinct) 
R	5 Paise were 2 Annas. 25 Paise were 4 Annas. 50 Paise were 8 Annas and a Rupees used to be 16 Annas. The currency was different. And that was real currency. If somebody has this currency now, they would see it was pure copper. These days, nobody knows what these coins are made of… See this is a 5 Rupee coin. I used to be able to go to Kalka with just 5 Rupees. With 50 Rupees, I would go till Nepal. I have seen that time also. You could have done a trip to Nepal and back with 50 Rupees. A good wedding could be done in 2000-2500 Rupees. This person sitting here used to tell me that if I knew weddings were so cheap back then, I would have married 4-5 times. It’s a joke. The prices have surged so much that… you told me how you’re paying 700 Rupees everyday… My maternal uncle was a very rich person. He used to pay 600 Rupees per month in Delhi. Our entire family would be surprised that they were paying 600 Rupees per month as rent. Apart from food. And now, the rents amount in lakhs. The prices have surged very high. In Lower Bazaar, the cleanliness is not at par with those days anymore, the business is not as good anymore… in Lower Bazaar that old generation is not there anymore. The current generation does not like this place anymore. They like to go only to Mall Road because it’s more crowded here and it’s hard to cross the streets. While, Mall Road has wide roads where you can roam around in peace. This place gets less attention from the government. They think these people have been here for long, they will be fine. Hence, this place has gone from bad to worse. And it is about to get worst unless we work together and make it better. 
I	So, what changes should be made to make this place better? Apart from cleanliness? What else? 
R	The washrooms should be fixed. The shops should improve their standard. 
I	What do you mean “improve their standard”? 
R	I mean there should be nice showrooms in this area. Apart from that, we have already submitted a proposal to turn these stairs into… what do you call it... 
I	Escalator? 
R	Yes, an escalator should be installed. If there are even four escalators between Lower Bazaar and Mall Road, the value of this place will increase a lot. Today, tourists can’t use these stairs to go from Lower Bazaar to Mall Road. May be a young man can, but a person of my age cannot take those stairs all the way to Mall Road. 
I	And tourists are not even used to it 
R	Tourists are not used to walking so much. So, if the escalators are installed, the proposal for which have been submitted multiple times and even the government has approved it, it will make a lot of difference here. Moreover, the washing system that used to be there in those days cannot be brought back as there is no labour available. But like the tankers that bring drinking water, separate tankers to wash the roads should also be brought to maintain cleanliness.
R	(to R2) How are you, Mr. *** ***? 
R	(to Iewer) He is our Chairman. 
R2	(to R) The real Chairman is you. We are only doing your work. It is only possible because of you. We are only doing what you have appointed me for. I had some work related to the election… Please stay seated. 
I	(to R2) Please take a seat. 
R	(to R2) Tell me one thing – What kind of changes has Lower Bazaar seen so far and what are your plan to improve its state? This entire area is under your jurisdiction. I have told (the Interviewer) most of the things 
R2	My jurisdiction is Shimla Rural. 
R	(to R2) I am not concerned about Shimla Rural. 
R2	From Shoghi to Suni… 
R	(to R2) No, leave that. We have brought you here at Kailash Federation. And because of Kailash Federation you are a representative of Shimla. And as Shimla’s representative, what improvements would you make for Lower Bazaar? 
R	(to I) He is a part of the government. 
I	What position do you hold? 
R2	I am the Chairman. 
R	He is the Chairman of Kailash Federation 
I	Kailash? Federation? 
R2	Kailash Federation is a pioneering Federation since 1947. It has been working ever since. The Federation used to do marketing of agricultural products. At one point, Kailash Federation was solely responsible for the sale of all the potato produce in Himachal Pradesh. Now they have expanded their services. They have opened a new depot here in Lower Bazaar. On top of the tunnel. The one at Hemphat shut down. When that shut down, the Lower Bazaar people complained and demanded another. I said, no problem, a new depot will be opened even if it runs on loss. Now that the elections… 
R	Who is going to clean this place? 
R2	I am getting to that… There were around 850 cardholders. They were poor – the ones who get cards, all of them. The depot caters to all of them. Everyone gets rations and the buildings are fixed. So that’s been started. The sewage part here – the channels that come down from Mall Road and those others stink up the area. 
R	Stay on Lower Bazaar. Till the depot. 
R2	No, I am not going beyond the depot. We have about 368 shops in the Lower Bazaar area. I am talking about all of them – those in the upper and lower areas. For the shopkeepers. For them… For example, we did an experiment in Solan. They also have a Lower Bazaar Association. The tiling on roads can give a sense of uniformity to shops in Lower Bazaar. Mall Road has a grace of its own… The entire state knows about Shimla’s Lower Bazaar. Tourists also look for Lower Bazaar when they arrive in Shimla. So, the 368 shops that I talked about on the upper and lower areas… So, the beautification of this area… Kailash Federation occupies the first building. I want to start the process of beautification and architectural design from that building. It is also a part of Lower Bazaar… when you get down, the place should look graceful along with the shops and the lower area should have enough space to move their goods. 
R	When are you planning to begin? 
R2	Sir, all you need to do is to form an Association and we can then help the government… 
R	We have to form the Association 
R2	Yes, you have to form one. 
R	We will form one after the elections. 
R2	I am also a part of that. We need to make a budget provision – 5 crores, 7 crores… based on how much the project is going to need. The vehicles that come in the evening for loading and unloading goods… 
R	What would the role be for our minister? 
R2	The minister is not going to go by what you say… But the point is people like us who got elected for 4-5 years… beautification and modification must happen… You may ask what we have done for the beautification of Lower Bazaar under the Smart City program… And even for that without your cooperation even the Nagar Nigam (Corporation) or the government cannot do anything. The government can allot a budget and like Mall Road this place should also undergo beautification. 
I	So, what comes under beautification? 
R2	Bringing uniformity… for example- the hoardings and the boards that are affixed. We will even level the roofs of the buildings. These shops need support because it represents the entire community and it’s the business hub of Shimla district. You cannot get goods at more reasonable costs… Now if I need to buy clothes, I will go to Mall Road, but the middle class or the people coming from rural areas… Even those coming from other cities used to prefer staying in this area. So, the few guest houses (dharmshalas) that we have here need to be strengthened. 1-2 more guest houses could be built so if a person comes from outside, they can find a decent room with a bed to sleep for 40 Rupees a night. The farmers who come to buy goods may need to spend the night sometimes… though there is better connectivity these days, the roads are better, and people even bring their cars here. So, we want this place to be in a uniform colour running in the same fashion. The shops should also receive that kind of support. 
R	I told her about the proposals to set up escalators. 
R2	Yes. 
I	These proposals that you have submitted, were they drafted in any meetings or did you take assistance of some organisation? 
R	I am also one of their persons associated with the government? 
I	Okay, at what capacity? 
R	I was close to the Chief Minister. I had a direct link with him. He left after the sanctions were done but this one proposal got left behind. (Background conversation) 
I	(to R2) I have come from Delhi. We are doing a study on Lower Bazaar and urban development in Shimla. So, the study is going on in Lower Bazaar but related to overall urban development of Shimla, such as how it happened, what changes need to be made, role of Smart City – that’s the focus. 
R2	I can give you ten suggestions not just being part of the government but for the fact that this area of Lower Bazaar… when Mall Road wasn’t there, Lower Bazaar used to be the main hub. A lot of people come here to buy goods. That’s why this area should be beautified in a uniform manner – from the roofs to sign boards, even the facades… for example, (the shops) that you see in Connaught Place (CP, New Delhi) … it doesn’t matter what’s kept inside… Similarly, the shops here should be modified. Obviously, if I have a shop, I wouldn’t want to miss out on that. So, we want to work on the beautification of this area and to bring uniformity. For example, Khushi Apartments here… the water tanks should not be visible from the front. We need to figure out a way to hide them in the back. That’s how we make it look uniform. Now, we get a lot of monkeys here. The cables should be moved underground. 
I	Does this also fall under the Smart City Program? 
R2	I am saying it has to happen in Lower Bazaar at least. The hanging cables, dealing with the monkeys… We are keeping another demand that they provide uniform water tanks. And if the area needs 500 tanks, it should receive 500 tanks. The cleaning of these tanks can be outsourced so they can be cleaned once a week or a month… uniform tanks should be provided. The expenses can be split between the owner and the Smart City program – that’s what I am saying. There should not be wires tying up the tanks. These days you get these new models that the monkeys can’t even touch – it affects the look of the place. (Background conversation) 
R	He (*** *** R2) came from nothing. Here’s a picture of me with Mr. Modi. 
I	Was it taken here in Shimla? 
R	Yes 
I	Was it taken at DDU? At Deendayal Hospital? 
R	It was taken near the big clock tower at Mall Road. (indistinct) 
I	So, we were talking about Smart City. Were there any meetings held for that here at the ward level? Have you participated in those meetings? Could you tell me a bit about those meetings? 
R	We were working on setting up escalators for which Lower Bazaar needed to be retiled. But we couldn’t come to a consensus on whether to use tiles or concrete for the surface. Then we wanted to build an ATM in the area up in the front. That area right now is used as a garbage dump. Setting up an ATM there would stop people from dumping garbage. Then, the public washrooms and the space around it needed to be cleaned on a regular basis. So, there is a lot of work that’s needed to be done. 
I	Where did these meetings take place? 
R	At the Corporation. 
I	How many people attended? 
R	Around 40-50. 
I	Did other businessmen and shopkeepers of this area attend these meetings? 
R	Yes 
I	They did. So, these were the suggestions that were made in these meetings? 
R	I am responsible for forming the associations in this area. 
I	Are there any working associations currently? 
R	Yes, there is. It was formed four years back by me. We had formed it during the elections. Its tenure is almost over. (indistinct) I will soon announce it. 
I	So how many members are there in this traders’ association? 
R	There are six members. There is a President, Vice President, Secretary, Cashier, and (indistinct) 
I	Are you also a member? 
R	I am the... 
I	You’re the founder… Okay. Are all traders part of the association? 
R	Yes. There are 3930 members in it. Close to 4000. They will come together again during the elections. 
I	Who is the current President? 
R	*** *** 
I	Where is his office? 
R	He is also the Councillor 
I	From which ward? This ward? Okay. 
R	You must meet him. 
I	Yes. Could you please give me his contact number? Or if you could inform him that I would like to speak with him… that will be great… so, he is the current Councillor? (Background conversation) (background conversation) 
R	98160… 222… 0007
I	981600007 
R	Copy it from here. 
I	Yes, I will copy it. (Background conversation) 
R	Can I get you some water? 
I	No, thank you 
R	Some juice may be? 
I	No. I am good. 
R	Why? You don’t like them? 
I	No. I don’t like sweets. 
R	Apple juice? 
I	No. Thank you. (Background conversation) 
R	(on phone) A girl has come down from Delhi and she wants to speak to you as the President of our association and Councillor of Lower Bazaar. (Background conversation) When are you planning to come back? Can you meet her tomorrow? At what time? Where would you like to meet? In Lower Bazaar? In front of Thakuraata… so, tomorrow at noon? Okay. (Background conversation) 
R	(to I) It’s Vir Bhadra Singh’s birth anniversary. 
I	Tomorrow? 
R	Tomorrow at noon… His name is *** *** (indistinct conversation between A and another person)
R	(to I) So, his office is in front of Thakuraata. There is an electronics shop.
R3	(to I) Is it for some newspaper? 
I	No, it’s a research study. Academic research. Affiliated to University. 
R3	You look like you’re also from Shimla. 
I	No, I am not. But I am glad I do. 
R3	No, you guessed the locations right. 
I	I am working in this area and doing interviews in Lower Bazaar so I am familiar with the shops. 
R3	Lower Bazaar is quite a big area. 
I	(to R) So, we were talking about Smart City. You told me several meetings were held and representatives from Vyapaar Mandal had also come down. So, what do you understand by Smart City? What features should a Smart City have? 
R	If the work is done ethically, they will use 75% and take 25% for themselves from the funds allotted… If it’s not, they will use 25% and keep 75% for themselves. Now, what we have to see is… 
R3	(to R) (She is asking) what facilities would you want in a Smart City? (to I) Like the washrooms and even the roads… the public amenities should be mended and improved. It should be done in a planned fashion. 
I	What was discussed in the meetings? 
R	Inderjeet will give you all the answers. 
I	I will be speaking to him as well 
R	He will tell you everything. He will have it all written down in documents. He can give that to you. 
I	Should I come later if you have any work right now? 
R	Yes, that would be better. Isn’t she smart? 
R3	(to I) What is this about? 
I	No, professors are working on the project. I am the Research Assistant. 
R3	What is your work exactly? 
I	The project is on urban development. I am working for them. 
R3	Urban development in Himachal? 
I	No, in Shimla. 
R3	I know you are from Delhi but where is the work taking place? 
I	In Shimla
R3	The development has been very hap hazard. It is not very planned or systematised. 
R	She (the woman) has also lived here for a long time. She also knows a lot about Shimla in those days. There is a lot of difference now. 
R3	No, I haven’t lived here very long. I came here only in 1999. 
R	But there have been a lot of changes since 1999. (indistinct) There were no concrete buildings here at all. There were only wooden buildings before. The places that we live now were all made of wood. 
R3	But, that was our heritage. 
R	Yes, that was our heritage. 
R3	Now it is almost like Delhi. 
R	It’s very bad now. 
I	There is no heritage left. 
R	No, there is nothing left. People are still trying to conserve a little of what’s left – the one on the road that goes to Kali Bari – otherwise even that will disappear. 
I	Which are such places in Lower Bazaar that you feel must be conserved? 
R	Swaroop is one area that should be developed. If we develop this area and make it beautiful, tourists from all over the world will come to visit this place. It has become very crowded now. 
R3	And the goods have spilled out of every shop. 
R	Now if the shopkeepers stop putting their goods out and the shops are designed uniformly, the place will look smarter. 
I	I have also read something… that’s what I am asking. 
R	What do you mean by Smart? Smart means a well-groomed person in good clothes. Similarly, this place needs to be groomed. And grooming will require everybody’s participation. Their help will also be needed. 
I	But there must be challenges in that too? 
R	Yes. There are several assumptions in the minds of shopkeepers in lower Bazaar and especially those who have come from Pakistan. First, they think the goods will not get sold if they don’t keep some of it outside. Secondly, a lot of shopkeepers have rented out the front of their shops to hawkers at 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000 Rupees per day. 
I	So, they are not registered. (Background conversation) 
R	Did you understand? The spaces outside these shops… for example, if someone has a 10 feet space outside theirs, like I have about 15 feet of space outside my shop… I have divided that space into four parts – 3 plots of 4 feet each given on rent and the rest of the 3 feet for myself. So, we have come to an arrangement where they pay me 200 or 300 or 500 Rupees a day and I keep their goods inside my shop at night. And if they are paying 700 Rupees a day for a 4 feet space… this is how the area is getting worse. With such arrangements in place people don’t like to leave their spots anymore. 
I	Does nobody come for inspections? 
R	They do but they let things slide if paid (a commission) They inform us in advance when they are on their way to give us a heads-up. Once they are here, they push a few people around… 
R3	There is no proper… 
R	From the looks of it, fixing these things is not possible for Modi to achieve singlehandedly. 
R3	Modi had… 
R	How can he fix things by himself? Though he does have a few good leaders alongside him – Rajnath Singh and others… the problem is in the chain of command. The officers are out of control. They can’t control every person. 
R3	Politicians can do anything until individuals take up responsibility. Each person should aim to take ownership and make a difference at their level… 
R	Do you know that he gets up at 4.30 in the morning… sleeps at 11.30 at night. 
R3	Who? 
R	Mr. Modi… So, he gets up at 4-4.30 AM, takes a shower and sings these four lines in prayer. That’s how he starts his day. You will be amazed to learn those lines in his prayer. You will be amazed to learn their meaning. Only I know what those lines are… 
I	What are those lines? 
R	He folds his hands in prayer and then he sings, “May my heart always yearn for you, may my heart always yearn for you, May I wish for nothing else, your joy and sorrows (not distinct), May my lips never make a complaint, May I take no step against your will (raza)… Do you know what raza mean? 
I	Will? Permission? 
R	…May I take no step to ever hurt you, don’t leave my side, who do I have apart from you? Don’t punish me ever to be away from you, may you be so kind to come meet me in my dreams, may you be so kind to come meet me in my dreams, May that dream never end, May that night never see its dawn, May that night never see its dawn, May that night never see its dawn”
I	You just made my day.  
R	Aren’t you moved? These lines were written by me. He is a very old friend of mine. He used to come sit with me here like you are seated today. He used to be raged about (the condition) of this place… 
I	Who? 
R	Mr. Modi. 
I	He used to live here? When was this? 
R	1990. And there were some four or five of us with him all the time There was me and two more and we would chat… The world has neither seen nor will it ever see another person like him again. If he doesn’t come back in office, India will soon have a larger share of Pakistan within itself. Muslim community will overwhelm us. Because every other party is depended on Muslims, are you aware of this? 
I	Depended for their votes? 
R	Yes. There will be complete destruction… Now, if I can sing at this age, you can imagine my singing in those days. 
I	Absolutely. Very good. I took a lot of your time today. Thank you. If I have any more questions, I will drop by sometime for a bit, if you don’t mind. 
R	If you miss your vote, I will not allow you in. Are you going to miss it?
I	My constituency is Agra. 
R	You must go. When is voting there? 
I	It’s gone. I was there to cast my vote. 
R	Have you casted your vote? 
I	Yes, On 18th April. 
R	Okay. What do you think the verdict be in Agra? Who do you suppose is going to win? 
I	I think it is going to be BJP from my discussions with people around. But, let’s see, the results are about to come. 
R	If (BJP) doesn’t come back, we will incur a huge loss. 
I	Was there any reconstruction planned here? Were there any building renovations planned in Lower Bazaar? 
R	No, not really… 
I	Just beautification? No plans to renovate. And what about hawkers? Does the Smart City program have anything about removing them? 
R	They are planning to have them rehabilitated somewhere else. 
I	Does that fall under the Smart City program? 
R	Yes. You meet this person tomorrow. 
I	Yes, I will. 
R	Talk to him in private. He is a Congress worker. 
I	Okay. Here is my card with my contact. Please if you need to call me for anything… (no audio)


SI012
I	Yeah, sir, go ahead.
R	I am ***. I am from Shimla. I basically belong to Kangra district of Himachal Pradesh. But in the early childhood, my parents came here. So, I am here for last seventy-four years.
I	Okay, and how old are you, Sir?
R	Seventy-five, yes. So, I am here in Shimla. My parents used to do business. Previously, I was in service. Now I have joined business after the death of my father and for the last, say about twenty-five years, I am in business.
I	Okay. So, you have been managing this shop?
R	Yes, previously I was helping my father in the business but now I am the only man to look after my business.
I	Okay, okay. And what service were you doing before this?
R	I have now retired as Officer of the Accountant of Himachal Pradesh.
I	Okay, okay. So, it was a government service?
R	Yes, Government of India job.
I	Okay, so you left that and?
R	Yes, I had to seek voluntary retirement and take over the business further.
I	Okay. And where do you stay in Shimla?
R	We have our own house at Stokes Place.
I	Stokes Place? Where is this?
R	It is near Chief Minister’s house. Just near [01:15-01-18] I am staying there with my family.
I	Okay. And what about you, Sir?
R2	My name is *** ***. Regarding the settlement in Shimla, my great grandfather came to Shimla in 1896.
I	Oh wow! Okay.
R2	Even my grand-father, father was also born in Shimla, same as me. After my education, it wasn’t… I have not completed my [01:48] I joined Indian Air Force.
I	The Indian Air Force? Okay.
R2	For four and a half years. After that I left my job and I started my transport business. Up to 2002 I was doing my transport business, now I am not doing anything. I also took part in politics and social work since then.
I	Okay. So what are you, what society are you or what party are you part of?
R2	I was a part of BJP but now I am not. I have resigned from that party due to certain difference of opinions with the working of the party.
I	Okay, so now which?
R2	I am part of the Citizens’ Rights Protection Foundation. We have founded in 2002 in which we are taking the various steps to fight for the rights, fundamental and constitutional rights of citizens of Shimla. I have filed so many PILs. Even the ministers were out of posts in Electricity Board and Medical and so many other…
I	Okay, but what kind of PILs have you…?
R2	Public type.
I	Like give me some examples of issues?
R2	Like transport.
I	Okay, what about transport?
R2	See, in Shimla, there are two types of laws imposing…
I	Two types of?
R2	Law. Outsiders, the basic residents are facing the problems. Now, they have made the capital, they have made a tourist zone. They can park their vehicles anywhere. They can, even the sealed restricted doors are open for their parking but whereas, as a Shimlaiite, if I have to purchase a car, I have to go pay the… pass so many channels for that.
I	Okay.
R2	I have to bring the parking certificate. I have to show the parking. How can it be possible? When someone is basic resident of that place, they should get the first preference. But in Shimla, it is not that. Outsiders, whether they are officials, whether they are politician, whether they are tourists, they are enjoying every facility. But local residents are facing problems.
I	Okay.
R2	If they want to try to do something, they are harassed by the Jalaans… so many things.
I	And what are the other PILs?
R2	Regarding electricity.
I	Okay.
R2	See, we are electricity producing state. So many hydel projects are there and after that, the formation of the Electricity Regulatory Commission, we are charged a rate as compared to other states like Delhi and Punjab. And these hydro projects and governments are selling the Electricity Board to other states and not taking any amount from them. Then the penalty is imposed on the local. That is also one part and the staff is even in an Electricity PIL, Regulatory Commission accepted our PIL. The point that there is a heavy load of the staff on the Electricity Board whereas the, what the Electricity Board is doing? Nothing. Hydro projects are in private sectors. All our government sector, what these Chief Engineers, JEEs, even last year what happened; when the crisis came due to this strong storm, they had to bring labour from outside the state. Even they are not having the, only having the field staff. They are having official staff, not field staff.
I	Okay, when wires were cut and there was electricity outage, okay last year.
R2	So for that, we have filed the PIL.
I	Okay, okay. So then…
R2	Medical strike, what these nurses, doctors are, they enforce their rights. They simply go on strike. They don’t bother how the patient died or how, what problems are coming, attendants are facing? They simply strike. We filed a case in 2005, in which the strike is banned by the High Court. In Himachal, medical strike is banned. If they have to go on strike, they cannot shout the slogans of anything within the premises of 500 metres and strict action should be taken for those participating in the strike. After that, so they did not strike.
I	Okay. So Sir, this is really interesting. Your work with PIL and citizen rights and I would like to discuss more of that also, but right now because we are sitting with Ramesh Sir also…
R2	Yeah, yeah. You ask me, that’s why I told.
I	Yes, so, I mean this is very important for my study on urban development. But right now, let’s focus on lower bazaar now, so…
R2	What you study, I will tell you one thing. When you are taking local study, always take in confidence the local resident, not these officials and…
I	Of course…
R2	Because if you got to Municipal Corporation, if you go to DC, they are not having any knowledge about the city. Whatever their bosses will say sitting in the Secretariat, and they will do. Whereas, now you ask me, I will tell you the name of Shimla, I will tell you… I cannot tell you the whole story but I can tell you the 45% whereas they will tell zero percent.
I	Yeah, yeah, I agree and that is why I am…
R2	You will go to official, his car is coming… what problem is he facing?
I	Exactly, exactly.
R2	If you will go to local resident, they will tell you what problems he is facing.
I	I agree.
R2	Someone is going to High Court… High Court is passing [noise from 07:45-07:48] facing the… that’s why we have to found this platform to fight for their rights in the name of Citizens Rights Action Foundation. Okay now tell me, what do you want to ask about Lower Bazaar?
I	So if we talk about Lower Bazaar, when we were walking you were showing me that some of the stalls that came up after 1947, after Partition and you were also saying that especially after 2002, lot of changes have come about. So, if we think back about the history of Lower Bazaar, what would you say are the key moments of change? At which points did something trigger in Lower Bazaar that change came about, like shops increased or decreased and the like? When did these changes take place and what was that change?
R2	It so happens that some people came to Shimla. It was planned/large city. Mall road was not made for the Indians, mainly. It was for Britishers or high officials. After that Lower Bazaar, it became the part of city. Lower Bazaar up to 1947 it was all right.
I	Okay.
R2	In 1947, after the Partition, the refugees those who stayed in Shimla or got the tents in Shimla, local peoples and local administration, Municipal Committee or whatsoever it may be, they constructed the stalls. In some places which I can specifically mention to you.
I	Okay, like?
R2	One is from Dilli store to Nai shops.
I	To Nai shops, okay.
R2	Nai shops (barbar?). Nai shops to Dumaldani Ram shops, then from there to Saun Sons to sabzi mandi and from sabzi mandi then to Sadar police station road. The star zone, near the tunnel…
I	The Rivoli tunnel?
R2	No, lower jet tunnel.
I	Which one is this?
R2	You are telling the Rivoli tunnel, that is on the other side of the tunnel. On this side of the tunnel when you go to Lower Bazaar, on this side you will find five or six stalls.
I	Right, right. Got it.
R2	Here also, this point they are constructed they have renovated the market now. That is garden market roads (?) (10:27-10:29)
I	Okay, okay.
R2	But the stall was only for temporary regiment for their rehabilitation. But the time, with the passage of time, nobody bothered about that and slowly, slowly, their families started to settle here only. They got the houses on rent, their children started to study and local residents took it sympathetically. They don’t object but with the passage of time, the population… After the merger of the Shimla city in Himachal, it was a part of Punjab. The load came on to Shimla city by becoming the capital of Himachal Pradesh.
I	What year was that?
R2	It was merger was ’66, district wise announcement was in 1972.
I	Okay, so then, ’66 was another moment when some change happened. So what happened, what all changed in ’66?
R2	See, firstly on the record that they made the Shimla Municipal Corporation in 1972. They got the funds from the Central government but whereas there was no… First election of the Municipal Corporation was, took place in 1982. (Confirmed from R)
R	Yeah, right.
R2	Otherwise it was governed by the Executive Officer, not elected…
I	Okay, it was not an elected body until ’82?
R2	But it came to existence prior to ’82. But no election took place. After 1982, then Shimla mainly, the old Shimla was part of this MC Corporation, Shimla.
I	Okay.
R2	From time to time, due to political pressure, they took Shimla out of Municipal Corporation twice. When these officers and bureaucrats, they constructed the buildings outside Shimla square, when they have to take the facility, they are part of Shimla. When it came in to the petition to pay the tax, then it is outsider.
I	So then they kept changing the status of the boundary of what comes under MC Shimla…
R2	Only for their benefits, where the sufferers are local residents of Shimla.
I	How?
R2	Because the load came on Shimla city. All the funds came under Shimla city. All the business come to Shimla. So if it is in a stall, if it is having a stock of one lakh rupees and the load came on that he has to increase the stock. He would require a big place, so he took the benefit of the back side of the stall and the front side of the road of the MC.
I	Okay, all right.
R2	And MC, under the pressure of these politicians you can say, they cannot take any action. If any officer came and took any action, either he is transferred or he is penalised from that post.
I	Okay. How does that happen? If a Councillor or a Corporation employee takes any action against the encroachment or the stall which is getting extended. How does that lead to their posting? What happens then?
R2	They are not local employees. Either they are employed by, because in (speaks to R about a transfer) Because up to 1988, there was…
R	In 1988.
R2	Because up to 1972, the staff was totally of Municipal Committee.
I	Okay.
R2	We were even all the records of Shimla, pertaining to Shimla Municipal Committee. Shimla Municipal Committee was having its own Patwari, own Tehsildar, own [15:06 (?)]
I	Okay.
R2	Other hill station work will be executed by DC, Shimla but every record was authorised with Municipal Committee. In 1972, one untoward incident happened in Shimla city that the record is gutted in fire. And they took the, these politicians and bureaucrats took the place in which the Municipal Committee learned about all these and lease or given to some other people. They took that fire for their benefit, to change that record on their own because the lease documents were gutted and they said that it is ours.
I	So there was a fire in the Municipal corporation office?
R2	Not… In record office.
I	Where was the record’s office that time?
R2	It was transferred to the [16:00 (?)]
I	Okay, so there was a fire there and all the records burned down, so they could sort of manipulate to their advantage in a way. Okay, due to that what happened? What was the fall out of that?
R2	Fall out was that the records got erased. Wait, I will tell you, I have a history of Lower Bazaar. You will find the same in other parts of Shimla. So those who settled in Lower Bazaar and the way Shimla came up, there were particular markings and they sold that property through their agents.
I	Okay.
R2	They marked the place, whether it is a tree or whatever. The local pay… the man who constructed the house or building on his own. At that time, in the record entry, Municipal committee was an owner and the man who constructed or bought that land was a ‘kabzadaar’. Municipal Committee fixed two types of taxes. One is land tax, second is property tax. But as you asked the question about 1972, it is mentioned in the outer square, they got the benefit of the doubt, they got the property in their own name. Whereas in Lower Bazaar, Mall Road, Middle Bazaar, Ganj Bazaar, it remained as it is, no one touched. Because those businessmen, those who were in this area they came in a limited proportion. Their son or families after studying there never took interest in their business or they were out of Shimla because of service or job. These refugees who are new to this place, they started to purchase the… One building was mine, they came and approached me.
I	Municipality approached you?
R2	No, they approached me.
I	Businessmen, okay…
R2	The businessmen purchase the structure, whereas the land remains ‘sarkaar daulatmanda’… whereas it is a Farsi word which means ‘maaldaar’ – so who were ‘maaldaar’? Those who owned that land. After 1947-72, it has remained ‘sarkaar daulatmanda’. After 1972, it became the Himachal Pradesh government became the owner.
I	Okay, so I am trying to understand this. So, the land was with the city government till ’72. And then it came under the control of state government. But the building on that land, those belong to the businessmen. So, is it like lease hold agreement or…?
R2	No, no, they are the clear owners.
I	They are clear owners. But the land is owned by the Municipality or the state government?
R2	Land is also theirs. That time…
I	During that fire, no…
R2	According to that time, the system might have been… I have only told you two things. One was ground tax and the other was house tax. And that land is sold. In 1947 also, it happened such that some property was sold to the custodian, it was clearly written as land. Even the Himachal government claims that it is theirs. It is a false entry…
I	Okay, the state government is claiming that it is a false entry?
R2	No, state government is claiming that it is its own property. That I think, is a false entry. They have collected various information but they are not giving it out. My simple question from the government of Himachal Pradesh is that, Shimla after 1947, it was an independent city as you know, and all records went to Punjab. They made it district Shimla. Please show me the entry of the Punjab government. You can manipulate the existence in 1966. How did you become the owners? See, any transfer or any notification is duly signed by some computer [20:48 (?)] party. I will give you an example. My one property is on the mark. I got a letter from MCD. My forefathers established in 1840, March – in that custodian from Ambala, copy to Jalandhar had written a letter to my forefather that shop number 83, no sorry, building number 83, the possession of this building will be handed over to my Assistant Inspector. And building number 1, that is on the backside of the building number 83. But the status change, 83 on the Mall and number 1 is in Kashmiri Basti.
	[R gets a phone call].
I	Okay…
R2	What has changed? 83 number is exclusively, the possession of the building is maybe given to my Asst. Inspector and building number 1 has been exclusively given to and Jalamajwala (?) and Co.
I	Okay.
R2	But why I am fighting for the same, questioning Minisha Nanda, who is the principal Secretary (Revenue), he is not giving time since one year to discuss this point. So my question is, when I am not arguing for property offer. But one letter which clearly says that number 83, I am not claiming but the land is of Himachal Pradesh government.
I	Okay.
R2	So in Shimla there are so many houses.
I	So land and property regime here is very complicated. So Sir, what about your shop? Is it your own or is it rented?
R: It was rented previously but we have purchased but so far no registration has been done.
I	Okay.
R2	Same problem is with this also… the structure is owned by someone else. He purchased the structure from someone else. He is the owner but the land is of Himachal Pradesh government.
I	Okay. So when did you purchase it? How long back?
R	Five years back.
I	From the original, from whoever was owning the structure?
R	Yes, yes.
I	Okay, okay. So now what is the challenge with the registration? Why are you not able to?
R	They are a big family and they are not resident family.
R2	They are a big family or someone I think, three brothers have expired, right?
R	Yes. It is a huge family with lot of members. One unit is not being formed.
I	One unit of what?
R2	The property is owned by *** ***. He expired. After that, the succession came so their sons, I think ten shareholders. Even the shareholders expired. Now there are daughters, grand-children, unless and until they become a single unit, it cannot be sold.
I	Okay, okay. So that cannot be executed. Okay, so you said ’72 and ’82 was…
R2	See, for the beneficiary I will tell you one thing. You will find these dispensaries in Lower Bazaar. Have you seen?
I	Yeah, yeah. I have seen.
R2	This is MCD property. After that you will find Dilli store, Dilli store was a fire brigade office once. And there, the rickshaws, how the fire brigade is operating – only through rickshaws.
I	Wow, okay.
R2	But the same point is finished. Now you go to Ganj, see one thing, I told you near this tunnel some stalls are in existence… after that three or four storey building is there. When I was a Grievances Committee member, under Shantal Kumar government that was, by May it was constructed. Prior to this, this land belonged to Muzamal Meherchand.  They constructed the bathrooms and toilets for these labours prior to 1947 but this government, in spite of making new, the old ones were finished. You see that there is no toilet in Lower Bazaar. There are so many toilets. Then you go to Ganj. SPCA, two or three times I wrote a letter to DC.
I	What is SPCA?
R	Society for the Prevention of Cruelty of Animals.
I	Okay.
R2	And the land directed to Raja Juggal [25:48-25:56]
I	Okay.
R2	There was a railway station near Ganj named Malgu. All the materials from the hill and from all over Shimla used to be brought there. From there, the labours would carry it in trolleys till the Ganj. So SPCA, from the digging ground to Malgu, I said why the government is not taking. That land was taken over. There are three four shops and they sold of the materials and set up a business together and there is an issue of encroachment. In this Gunj, it was totally for food stalls.
I	Okay, whole sale market?
R2	So, all the materials used to be carried in trolleys to the railway station…
I	But now it’s very less…
R2	Now there is a little market, apart from the whole sale market. Similarly
I	So when did that happen, that change happen?
R2	That change happened after ’72.
I	How did that regime change lead to these changes, how did they translate into this?
R	Because the Punjab portion merged into Himachal.
R2	Even you know Shimla, in Shimla, from Perano, rice was not allowed.
I	Perano is another area.
R2	Perano was Himachal. You can say that it was the main business that time was rice. Punjab used to supply the ration to Himachal.
	[R gets a call again]
I	Okay.
R2	After ’72, it became state, all became open, road connectivity increased, how these markets…
I	So they shifted somewhere else?
R2	No, Malguda [28:10-28:17 – voices overlapping]
I	So where did the whole sale retailers/businessmen go?
R2	That was over. Even though road connectivity increased, there were a lot of hindrances in Himachal and Punjab. When Shimla merged into Himachal, now Perano route was clear. So, when Perano came, Shimla’s whole sale market was over.
I	Okay, okay.
R2	Shimla’s whole sale market was taken over by ration, sabzi mandi, actually Shimla was totally destroyed after 1972.
I	Okay… so let’s talk about the period after ’72. So Sir, you have been managing the since what year?
R	1992.
I	So you must have, even before that you were working in Shimla, so what changes did you see in this area, in this market area?
R	Market area has grown in numbers but not in volume. Actually, I will have to leave in ten minutes.
I	Yes, I actually overheard so that’s why I shifted my question to you. I should get your views, so sorry, you were saying…
R	Some people from the channel will visit the shop.
I	Okay. So Sir, you were saying what changes you have seen in this market over the years…
R	Drastic changes, earlier it was a very neat and clean market. Very compact market. Now it is vast, it has bifurcated. There are so many shops that have come up. Business has shifted from this main market to outside the city. No doubt only people who are working with shoes and ready-made garments, they are in the main market.
I	Were they not there before?
R	Hardly there was five or six shops. Now I think, more than one hundred shops in that category because of, that is a good work and people came from other states. They migrated, then locals…
I	Who are the locals here?
R2	Locals originally, they came from Kangra.
I	What are those communities?
R	So Rajputs came, they reached from Kangra side. Yes, Garhwal from Uttarakhand. They came to Shimla, they established…
R2	Because the Britishers were not having faith on these politicians, they were neglected. Even Rai sahib, they are all from Kangra. Even our forefathers when they came in 1840s, it was established… Britishers made their offices and some Royals, those who called themselves Royals, became businessmen of Shimla.
I	Okay. And what are the new communities that have come in?
R	They are migrants from Pakistan. Mostly, they are from Pakistan or they come from Haryana, Ambala or contiguous…
I	What are these…
R2	Up to ’72…
I	What were those communities?
R	Agarwals, Jains, Baniyas – they came to Shimla.
I	And after ’72?
R2	After ’72, it has become half-half collection. [Everyone laughs] No, no, I will say it…
I	But in terms of, which communities are coming in after’72, that also changed or…?
R	Yes, communities kept changing. Those people who came from Pakistan, main business has come under their control now.
R2	People from UP.
I	UP. Okay. What communities?
R	Muslims. [takes a call]
I	Let’s get back to Lower Bazaar. What is your oldest or fondest memory related to it? About any place, anything which you recall…
R	Lower Bazaar as I said, used to be very neat and clean. These stalls were not there. It was a good and small bazaar. So many dignified shops, old people were here. All things… later on, illegal construction and all kept growing. It has totally changed its shape.
R2	Post office started.
R	There was a post office, yes it was there I think, about fifteen years back, so there were water hydrants…
R2	Public taps.
R	Public taps, you could drink water, it used to be very stylish. Maybe a few still exist, I can show it to you.
R2	It is no longer there.
R	It is no longer Shimla… it has become an urban city now. It used to be a hill station, very peaceful.
I	What is good about Lower Bazaar now? What do you like now?
R2	Nothing much but business has been good. Tourists keep coming, so we are sitting inside shops. For a businessman, who comes to shop is important, nothing beyond is known. First you will see that the tourist is happy here. When tourists visit this place, they go back with a good impression of this place. There is an entry point here, I got it built. It was noted that It creates a good impression. Every other house has a hotel, there is a government scheme. There should be a network.
R	One thing I can suggest you, you can continue with this interview. In case, he can provide you with more information and I will like to leave because I have to invite four-five people to my shop.
I	All right. Can I drop by again sometime?
R	Oh yes, you can come sometime next week. Because tomorrow, day after I have to go to Chandigarh with my family.
I	Sure. I will drop by again next week. Can I have your number so that I can fix a convenient time? Because you will be busy…
R	9218501001.
I	Right, so I will give you a call.
R2	Is it done?
I	No, no, I have more questions.
R	I am sorry, but [Talks to R2] They have to ask you whether you would vote for Modi or not. You tell them no, you won’t.
I	[laughs] Thank you, Sir. [R leaves] Sorry Sir, I am taking a lot of your time as well. If you are also busy, I will understand [to R2, who agrees to continue being interviewed]. Thank you, sir. So we were talking about what’s good in Lower Bazaar now? Anything that is to be preserved?
R2	According to me, someone who has seen Shimla around twenty years back, either to visit or someone’s relative or as a businessman, that person would definitely say Lower or rather Shimla no longer exists.
I	Why? Even whole of Shimla?
R2	See, this new generation, these new people… now tourists will visit, if you go to Kufri… People now will find it to be very good. Because if a packet of Maggi costing 10 bucks is being boiled and sold at 50-60 bucks, they will say it’s good. If you go towards Shoghi, you will see that people are sitting on the benches by the roadside. If you go to Parmanu, they sell Kulche for around 80 bucks. For those who are being able to sell an item of 10 bucks in 80, for them it is fine. But if it is the other way round, it is very difficult. When people used to visit Shimla, there were lot of facilities, one would know that they are going to stay in a particular hotel where it is reasonable…
I	Now there is no place which is reasonable…
R2	Be it Punjab or Shimla and Himachal Pradesh, any vehicle from these places, you will see a lot of them at Shoghi. If any of them get stuck at Shoghi, fifty percent charges are borne by hoteliers who bring them to the place. What do they call them…? Hotel guides.
I	Hotel guides, okay.
R2	It does not matter, someone might get stuck... One might be able to pass a day. But if I ask for tea in the morning… some people have divided their drawing rooms in halves. They provide occupancy. It does not matter for that person. If he starts the room charge at 4000 and pays 2000 to the hotel guide (gain for him). But the man who is in the business, his reputation suffers. He has to pay tax, look after the staff and management issues, provide facilities as well. During a peak season, this happens. There is no government proposal. The one you were mentioning, in that there are four types of water pipelines to be laid down. No one knows about it today.
I	Where is it? Is it still operational?
R2	No, it’s not there. What happened was government had a budget, they dug up the streets overnight. Then the next government came, the previous government and the current one had a tussle, leading to change in staff members and transfers, political leaders changed. Whom will we ask?
I	You were mentioning a Grievance Committee, what is it?
R2	It was given to us by the government.
I	Which issues will be addressed by this Committee?
R2	It used to be District Grievances Committee.
I	Oh, the one in DC office?
R2	Yes, DC office.
I	I have seen the board. But isn’t it closed?
R2	Actually it is closed since a long time. What happens is all districts of Himachal Pradesh, not just in Shimla, there used to a Grievance Committee. One is of District level, the other is of Mandal level.
I	Okay.
R2	As in Shimla district had a separate committee, and every month the meeting was compulsory. The agenda was discussed during the meetings. And as a member, I used to summarize the points of the meeting, about schools, roads, water, electricity.
I	Okay.
R2	In PIL, these wires that are hanging, so many times incidents of fire have taken place. Thank God, it happened during daytime. Otherwise, had it happened at night while people were sleeping, whole city would have been destroyed.
I	What do you mean, some fire had happened?
R2	Not once, but three or four times.
I	Okay…
R2	Even this building is saved, and in 1989, Shanta Kumar ji was the Chief Minister and, in the morning, SP was saying this and that. I asked that SP, ‘Why are showing this to the politician? Look at the public who is on the roads.’ Another interesting thing is this building where you are sitting is an LBN (?) house.
I	It is?
R2	Albion, old name of England was Albion.
I	Oh, I didn’t know this. Albion House.
R2	And this is also one of the oldest buildings in Shimla. You see the structure of this building, it is a three-storeyed building and one of the biggest building.
I	I will have a look from outside.
R2	You see, there is in Lower Bazaar also.
I	Okay.
R2	One part is in the Mall, second part is in Lower Bazaar.
I	Okay, Okay. So this connects to the Mall road?
R2	Yes, Mall Road. Two storeys on the Mall road, two storeys on the inner road.
I	Okay, okay. So we were discussing, going back to that discussion, what were the key moments of change in Shimla and in Lower Bazaar; so we discussed ’47, ’66, ’72, ’82. What happened after ’82, any other key moment of change, did anything shift after this?
R2	After ’82, old people started to…
I	Old people started to leave?
R2	March from this place because when… From Upper Himachal, those who are…
I	Would you sit here? You would be more comfortable…
R2	No, no, it’s okay. So people would come, Punjabi would come, naturally they… I told you one thing, see I am living here but my both sons are not here. They are outside Shimla. My daughter is in Airtel, Noida. Suppose, I find out that they are going to come back to Shimla, then what would I do?
I	Yes, you would also leave.
R2	For these reasons, what I did? I went to my native place, from where my forefathers came in 1826…
I	Kangra, no sorry, I forgot…
R2	No, Kangra was the other person, mine is Una.
I	Una, okay.
R2	As he constructed my forefather’s house in that place. If I live on for another two-three-four-five years, I don’t know… I cannot take the rising stairs, get on these stairs, up and down. Then I will reside in Lower Bazaar. I am having forefather’s land in some other places of Shimla but for my safety side, the same problems that I am discussing with you here, people are facing the same problems there. Nobody bothers about those properties also. Religion and social structure, all is finished. The main thing that happened after ’82 is that all social structure of Shimla, like in Lower Bazaar, Mall Road, it is applied on the whole state and whole country.
I	Social structure has finished, what do you mean by that?
R2	Because previously if someone passed away, whole of Shimla would shut down. Now if someone dies, even the neighbours don’t bother.
I	Community is…
R2	Previously someone was to construct a house, then one brick used to cost one rupee. That time that itself used to be valuable. If people contributed, they wouldn’t mind. Around five thousand people would gather and contribute one rupee each. So the work would get done. During weddings or other functions, all family members and relatives would come together.
I	So why did that change after ’82?
R2	The local people change after ’82.
I	Why?
R2	Because the administration kept changing from time to time. As I told you, ‘Seb, aloo ugayenge, Kangri, Punjabi bhagayenge.’
I	Okay…
R2	Shimla was mainly of two communities – Punjabi and Kangri. Okay? So this slogan that came up because of some leaders in which one party was… why should I take the name? They were ignored by the Britishers as well as all the governments.
I	Okay.
R2	And they are mainly the, you can say the rulers of those states, small-small states. All the big…
I	Okay. These are certain communities?
R2	Yes. They said when you got to Shimla, these Pahadi, these Kangri and Punjabi loot you. Someone even said that, they will take away your potato. Now what’s in the minds of their children? They would think that is the real scenario. Because forty years back, if a carton (empty) of apples would cost one rupee, now the same empty carton would cost forty to fifty. So the one-rupee carton would be sold off for 20 bucks, so that had some value. But now, if one carton of apples is sold for 2000, and then it is being to Delhi and imagine the costs involved.
I	That’s true.
R2	Isn’t it? So basically, these things are happening in such a way that now those who came up with such slogans, they are all at a loss. Which means they sold the apples, yet children are also suffering. Now all the Universities that opened in Himachal, every parent dreams that their ward should… So many cannot afford. So they started to sell their land. And there was 118. According to 118, local people cannot buy, so politicians and officers got together and sold it off without permission. They fixed a rate.
I	What is this 118?
R2	118 came up in 1972, when a portion of Punjab was merged with Himachal. That the local people cannot sell their land and cannot buy from outside as well. They cannot buy outside because as per 118, non-agriculturalists would not be able to buy land here. Then who will buy here? The locals. If I have my own land, why will buy it from you?
I	Yes.
R2	The outsiders will buy. For that, in the name of permission and hotel/industry, they started to sell off land. Now they gathered four-five people, they started to draft agreements, gave out lease. They have so many loopholes.
I	Okay, so there is influx of people buying land in Shimla, through loopholes in the law.
R2	Loopholes in the law.
I	So 118 is some section in…?
R2	In Land Reform Act. After becoming a full-fledged state.
I	Okay. Alright. So then you had earlier also mentioned that in 2002, Lower Bazaar changed a lot again. So what happened then?
R2	Before 2002, the main power of Shimla Municipal Committee was with Congress. The mayor was of Congress. With the passage of time, Vir Bhadra Singh became third-time Chief Minister, the…
I	Vir Bhadra Singh was from which party?
R2	Congress.
I	Okay.
R2	And he is so adamant. This is a first time in the history that MC staff was transferred in 1986 to 1987. Up to 2002, Shimla Municipal Committee became the total political platform of these parties.
I	Congress?
R2	Congress.
I	Okay.
R2	And rest, Opposition was BJP. They, with the passage of time, half of the family joined Congress, other half joined BJP. So the opportunists started to come into the Municipal Committee. Now, they are squeezing with both hands.
I	So, again in 2002, the power changed? In Municipality, was it Congress or did it change?
R2	Congress.
I	Congress. And then what started happening in Lower Bazaar? What changed there?
R2	Lower Bazaar, anybody would do anything. For instance, some higher authority will give a call, and if the concerned person took any action, even then say the Councillor will call or something. This is vote bank politics.
I	Oh okay, like that.
R2	Like that.
I	Were there too many violations or encroachments?
R2	Yes, a lot. Last year, before the elections, here in Lower Bazaar, like I told you till the end of sabzi mandi, three-four people moved ahead near the sabzi mandi. So the Commissioner took action against them. They cut off electricity and water. But after four or five months, the MLA around Vidhan Sabha elections, they moved without paying anything, without [starts coughing]
I	They got… Okay. Do you need some water?
R2	No.
I	Okay… So because of vote bank politics, there was a nexus almost between encroachment, businesses…
R2	See, in business… like these people, who will go these people? I will go, my friend will also go.
I	it is a grocery shop… the locals will go.
R2	Afghans are also in the same situation. Who will go there? The locals. Those people who would come to me from outside, that stopped. Like the other interviewee mentioned that he has a shop of ready-made shoes. Those who come back home come back from the city with frustration, those who are in Shimla. Where do you want to go? Say suppose, Mall Road, Lower Bazaar whereas the local manufacturing here is zero per cent. You will not find any local thing in Shimla. 105% products are from outside.
I	Okay.
R2	But if someone is working in the Bazaar or Mall Road or local bazaar… their children or parents are close, newly married couples are sent to their showroom, they get attracted. And they put boards outside their shops – 50-60% discounts and they are finishing (?) the tourists. If you talk about business also, it is not owned by locals. My consciousness will not allow to do this, put a 2000% margin and give 50% discount. But businessmen from outside, so many times we discussed so many things. These stores are going on premiums, 2 lakh rupees, 5, per month.
I	The rent? For the stores?
R2	Those who are occupying the stalls, they sublet it. There are so many, they sold their stalls or properties to others.
I	Okay. And they are paying rent to the Municipal Corporation?
R2	Yes, and charging them in lakhs from the outsiders. Outsiders are…
I	Oh, okay. Per month! But does that much business happen…?
R2	Like I told you, maximum is, let’s talk about 2002, in Shimla there were four-five dhabas. They were shouting on the horse. Prior to 1972, their rate was 10 anas. 10 chappati, 5 chappati, rice, whatsoever, they will give you full diet in 10 anas. Even the government price used to be 30 rupees per month. Slowly the rates for these dhabas, last I saw it was 73 rupees, in Shimla. Now, even in Shimla, two or three years ago, chappati rate was one and half rupees. Now, it is 8 rupees. No local administration is there. All administration, all MC, DC, food supply, they all have a hand. The police on the side of the checking authority. So if someone is doing any foul acts, he will pose the matter to police. They will put it away.
I	Okay.
R2	This is the main reason of spoiling the city.
I	So if we talk about and this was like the last part of my questions also, that if we talk about the future, what should it done? What do you think should change in Lower Bazaar, Gunj, sabzi mandi - What things need to change?
R2	See, first of all, it is the administration that needs to change. Because politicians and administration. One id the agency who makes the law. Second is the implementing agency. If both are not having any understanding, no progress will take place. As you know, smart city – what smart city?
I	Is anything happening under Smart City?
R2	Yeah.
I	what is happening?
R2	All the old structures are destroyed and they were far better than these new structures.
I	What, have they implemented something already?
R2	See, if you go to Mall Road, the toilets were or these… Rotary Club, this shed was maintained by one local trust with the collaboration of Centre- State. They removed the stones, they put, what do you call, granite… And change the name. For tourist, it is a Smart City, he will find the change. It was so beautifully made before, they put granite on top of that. Previously, it was granite too. These railings as well, now they are made of pipes. The granite that is being used to make the stairs, actually not much is being done. Before one would not slip because of checkers before, now because of the granite, water accumulates.
I	When did all this change?
R2	In the last four or five years. In the BJP regime…
I	Okay… so what do you understand by ‘Smart City’?
R2	It means one should have all kinds of facilities.
I	Like, what all?
R2	All human facilities, basic amenities. See, they demolished so many toilets in Shimla.
I	They demolished?
R2	Yeah. And they have not constructed or provided a single one. From Shankar vihar to Sancholi, there were three or five toilet blocks on the main road. They used to be a garden/park in the upper side. People used to walk on foot, so one can take rest also. If he passes by a urinal, he can use the toilet. All finished. In the vicinity now you find five six toilets, they are all paid. They are not maintained by the MC or by the administration. They are unattended. So what are they doing? They are paying the fess to the Municipal Corporation or the administration. They brought all their near and dear ones from the villages. They are selling these momos, pizza, this and that in the streets. And the rest become free for them.
I	Okay. So you said, by smart city, you mean that all facilities should be there. And what else?
R2	Smart city means… it doesn’t mean that you construct a parking in the name of tourists and all. If the local residents, which is the part and parcel of that ‘smart city’ is not having any facility, then what?! If you are not providing water to the local residents, what is a smart city. If you are not providing education, you are not providing medical facility, if you are not providing ambulance on the road, if you are not providing libraries, you are not providing old age home, then what is a smart city?
I	so there were meetings in 2017 around smart city, right? Ward level meetings took place…
R2	What they do, I will tell you. As you are sitting in front of me, their people come… they never bother to contact the local people. Their team comes, then from the officers, one or two politicians. They organize their stay and they select one or two places for the inspection.
I	Oh okay.
R2	Why do they not show them the Lower Bazaar?
I	Were there no meetings in Lower Bazaar?
R2	They take them towards the CM’s residence. They take them to the Chief Justice’s residence. That will naturally look like city…
I	Right. But you have been part of so many organizations and you are part of Sood sabha as well. So I, the documentation about Smart city mentioned that there were members from Sood sabha also present, there were members from Vyapar Association. So all those meetings…
R2	That only, what I told you, ‘Hey, come along, sit during the meeting.’
I	Okay…
R2	And from all that I told you, tell me what I told you about smart city if anything…
I	So it wasn’t that in actual…
R2	It was all fill in the blanks.
I	So it was a formality being done.
R2	Like you are saying, Sood sabha… All the money that came in the name of Smart city, some agency spent it, right? There are two brothers, two in BJP, two in Congress, madam is in CPM. If some tender or something comes up, that is [01:01:50] Now the situations that you talked about, they do formality. If I am a member of Sood sabha, but if I go and sit in another meeting, it will be seen as being a member of that meeting. Even if I don’t know about it, fill in the blanks is done. That member of Sood sabha was present. Sood sabha members know other members. Now I am telling you, today in Shimla or in the whole country, I will tell the truth, all game is in the hand of vote. Whatever the voter says, that will happen. Now be it EVM, PayTM, ballot paper. I am giving you extra information because our generation will go away but in the coming years knowledge will be created for you all.
I	So I am actually very surprised because from what I had read and the people I talked with, everyone said that such meetings or involvement did not actually take place.
R2	Does not happen, I am telling you.
I	Okay.
R2	All this, I am telling you, these people who work with the TV (media), they come to me but don’t know I am. They will come but if I am attached with someone, I won’t say a thing, of course. If you see old interviews, these people… People from TV or newspaper won’t approach me, because they know. Everybody does not have the knowledge, everything is just fill in the blanks. Now you look at Delhi, what’s happening there? In today’s date, only city which is there is Chandigarh.
I	Okay.
R2	In their politics, natural construction happens. No political pressure. Teams will get to work. Here, work doesn’t get done even after complaints. And there, everything works even without complaining. I will tell you, there was a time when even the sweeper, whichever Municipal Committee it is, was having judicial powers.
I	Oh okay.
R2	If that person goes and writes a complaint on the Committee register, that in their locality someone threw garbage or illegal construction is taking place, if there is any feud, then immediate action is taken. Here, if one complains, police will blame the Corporation, Corporation will lead you to DC, so now, what is a smart city? So whenever to go, they have marked a yellow line on the main traffic point to show parking. Just putting a yellow line… that too where have they put the yellow line? This is a one-way road. Okay? Vehicles will move on this side of the road… it won’t be coming from the other side. So which side did they put it the yellow line on? On the right-hand side. Government itself is [01:05:03] What is the interesting point here? If they ask us, this shouldn’t have happened. So who did this? Not me, but the Corporation has done it. If you ask the Corporation, they will say they are lying and point at the police. When you ask both of them, they will both deny and point towards the Councillor. If you go to Councillor, they will also point at the PWD. So, is this a smart city? Nobody is taking responsibility of their own work. It is sad. This is the story. So all the departments involved, whether something happened for the smart city project or not, the agencies who are there have been able to claim two-three properties.
I	So what do you think should happen? Because in Lower Bazaar, first of all, is so crowded and all other problems…
R2	Administration.
I	What do you want? After that? What should the administration do after it is changed?
R2	After it is changed, let me tell you, pick any newspaper and you will see, in Lower Bazaar tender failed…
I	In Lower Bazaar?
R2	Fire brigade tender failed, why? Like I told you, Dilli store was a fire brigade. I will clearly state both the things - when these roads were made, these were made for trucks with six tyres. This road is now for pedestrians and parks. And what happened? These people destroyed the existing infrastructure. Back in the days, whatever infrastructure was there in Shimla, whenever there was a fire, there was provision for rickshaws. Wherever they go, they go with their equipment and fire attendants will cross the road. But you ask about it now, what about the fire attendants…
I	But it is not there anymore in Lower Bazaar?
R2	It is there, but they don’t know.
I	Where is it?
R2	It is there. There is no cooperation among the departments. Municipality does their own, they made a company named waterworks, they do their own. If something burns, isn’t it their responsibility? Like I was telling you, the encroachment is happening on both sides nowadays. Instead of rickshaws, they called in fire brigade tenders. Those roads where rickshaws used to run, you let encroachment happen there. Now you want to run big trucks on them. Is it possible?
I	So like you are mentioning, many a times there were fire incidents. So how do fire brigades reach the location?
R2	People gather in large numbers, during the daytime, you can say before 10 at night. People are wandering, walking, they help out. Meanwhile, fire attendants use huge water pipes, fire brigades reach nearby areas.
I	So it gets saved that way?
R2	The main thing is that the political will should be stopped. Until the administration is strict and answers our questions… If someone extends their stall or something, what is the responsibility of the state? What is the responsibility of the police? Commissioner’s responsibility? That happens and 2000 rupees is rejected. Imposing polity is not a lesson to grant. If one gets a car to the Mall road, it is prohibited. One pays 2000 rupees, the person gets discharged. Crime is always crime.
I	So do you think these stalls should be removed or regularised in some way? What should be done about the stalls and the encroachments?
R2	So many things can change. As I told you, SPCA, they can make a market there or make a multi-storeyed building there.
I	That land is lying vacant now.
R2	For two-three months it stayed like that after that, encroachment will take place. If that building gets constructed, there will at least be 100 shops. That will be for the Bazaar then and that will be the best market. Or you look at the Mall Road, this ladies park, this was a hotel once.
I	Rani Jhansi Park?
R2	Rani Jhansi Park, this used to be hotel. Then during that time, people asked for space for ladies as there was no alternative for the ladies for their entertainment. So the ladies from the city would spend their time with their children and soak up some sun. then after meetings, jobs, so for ladies, this opened. This permission was granted 12-13 years before. The government had agreed but… Now this is such a huge infrastructure, it’s made of soil. Like they are constructing a building in the lower part, by removing the whole, 400-500 shops can be made. And above it, there can be a skating ring as well. There can be a parking space and the roads will be free. There was a club near RKMB. A new building was constructed. I wrote to the PWD – sir, what you could do is ask them to start the construction with a gap of 2 feet. They did not leave an inch. Moreover, they kept the flag pole all together and the streets which used to be 11 feet are now 10 feet. There is no administration at all. Till the time they give us answers, politicians also would not care. I will tell you a few more cases. You know what they wrote, it is illegal work – “I have used my quasi-judicial powers.” They will sell the country tomorrow.
I	To do what?
R2	Any kind of work like a revenue entry…
I	But do you think these stalls should be relocated in a new building?
R2	They should be maintained properly.
I	So did any proposal come up under smart city to redevelop Lower Bazaar?
R2	I am not a member but we haven’t heard anything like that.
I	And are you associated with the Sood sabha?
R2	Yes, I am associated.
I	So what kind of work? Do they organise cultural activities? What does Sood sabha do?
R2	Maximum cultural activities.
I	Okay.
R2	We do for all castes and creed.
I	Okay, okay. Alright. So those were the questions I had. Anything else that you would like to tell me on Shimla’s urban development? What does Shimla need after the political and administrative…?
R2	Shimla only needs one thing – political will and its implementations.
I	But implementation to do what becomes a question?
R2	Urban development – when there is a will of a politician. First if they implement it, automatically, all things will be…
I	So I saw there are lot of these maps and land records in your office, so do you work a lot on land cases or?
R2	I am fighting for so many things, really. But I am not successful. The system is so corrupt.
I	So these are court cases on ownership and property cases?
R2	Yeah, yeah.
I	Okay, so for your own land…?
R2	I will tell you [opens files]
I	Okay, so this is what you were telling me that there were wrong entries after the whole records were burnt and then the entry was done under the government’s name. Okay…
R2	See…
I	Okay... What is this?
R2	This is CID duffle hand. I will tell you. This is the [01:15:03] … 1909.
I	Okay.
R2	This is duly signed by the Centre and purchaser. When the land is owned by particular man, still the owner is in the blank column that is kabzadaari.  But in the owner column, Himachal Pradesh government.
I	Okay, kabzadaari would mean encroacher?
R2	Yeah. This man is a purchaser of the land from the Britishers.
I	And owner is written as government.
R2	Himachal Pradesh.
I	State government, okay. I see you have also filed RTIs to get information.
R2	Yeah, see. This will do, “As per the khasra permission, as per the property situated in 5 marg, there are no private owners in these. All are recorded in the column of ownership of revenue record. Only the erstwhile sarkaar daulatmanda…”
I	Okay…
R2	[continues reading] “are having a…” Sarkaar daulatmanda I told you, the person who is a rich man. “As subsequently Himachal Pradesh government is the real owner of the land which also includes the building in possession, common copy of khachra permission enclosed. It is further submitted by the entries of ownership of land as well as in possession column of jamabandi are in continue to in favour of Sarkaar daulatmanda.” They are still manipulating it in the wrong way.
I	How can they do it with so much impunity?
R2	That’s why I am telling you, I am fighting for this.
I	Oh, and what is ‘jamabandi’?
R2	Jamabandi – how do I tell you… this is called jamabandi, I will show you. See, this is the land, now they are selling the plot also. If it is government of Himachal Pradesh, how is he selling these plots?
I	Right. So, so jamabandi means…
R2	I will show you…
I	Where did you get the maps, these land record maps?
R2	From the purchaser… This is called jamabandi.
I	What is in this? What is being shown?
R2	Government of Himachal Pradesh, this is theirs.
I	That who is the owner…
R2	Like look at this, this one. This is from 1977, you said ’72, right? This is from 1977, given by the advocate. Till date, no action has been taken by the government…
I	Okay… so…
R2	These records are lying here. In this jamabandi, it is basically kabzaadari.  Specially because it was bought in 1909 itself…
I	Okay, so jamabandi is basically a record.
R2	Record. And in jamabandi, I am asking them the same question – if it is Sarkar daulatmanda, it should be going to the Punjab government, in ’47. If any entry in jamabandi, then it is without notification, then it is by law. If they are not having any notification, it is not law and to make an entry in jamabandi without any law is an offence.
I	Okay, so jamabandi means that at a particular time for a particular record, land went to the government. That is what…
R2	Government or some other individual…
I	Oh okay…
R2	With jamabandii, say today I am the owner. Tomorrow I will tell you, automatically I will tell it will be your property.
I	So then there will be a jamabandi saying that the original owner, who was the previous owner, like that?
R2	Yes.
I	Okay, okay. Now I understand. Thank you so much, sir, for all your time. Can I please have your number in case I have any follow-up questions I would know how to find you?
R2	9817062276.
I	Because a part of our research is also to organize a stakeholder meeting which means that we will bring all our research participants together and present our findings. So we will do that in Shimla.
R2	I didn’t offer you tea…
I	No, no. I took a lot of your time, so sorry. Thank you so much, sir.
R2	Welcome.
I	This is my card in case, you need to say something.
R2	Okay.
I	Thank you!



SI014
I	Yes, please go ahead. Sorry I interrupted you. What is your name, sir?
R	*** *** [spells it out].
I	*** ***.
R	Our shop is very much famous as ‘old sardarji’. Sardarji shop, sardarji Photostat wale, print wale, like this. We are from, my father, 1950 after ’47, after Pakistan, he stayed here. We were quite young.
I	Where in Pakistan did you migrate from?
R	Parjinar, lot of people here. There is Shoe Palace, did you see? Ashirwad – did you see that?
I	Ashirwad, no…
R	They are very famous shops. You tell them in the survey, yesterday Sardarji sent me here. You will get all the verification from them. People from Pakistan are sitting there, they are still alive. My father, at 91, he saw Pakistan and India, up and down. You can surely understand. We have seen. We used to think where will we get the money? You are also earning money now, right? How can we get more money? This concern is always there, one never thinks that now we don’t want money, instead we hope there is more of it. Maybe I become Ramdev, I do things like him… I liked your image, hence I talked to you. Otherwise, I don’t usually don’t talk. I get too tired, everyday… Is it less that we are working, on top of that, people come asking…?
I	How much is this for and all that…
R	Yeah, how much, how is that so, where to do, where is the DC office? Oh please go, that DC office is that way, should I leave you there?
I	[laughs] What is your age, sir?
R	I am 55.
I	55 and this shop of yours, since when have been managing?
R	Since the beginning, I was there with my father… [he talks to someone about a guy who has left and asks the person to return the next day – something to do with documents]
I	So has it been a Photostat shop since the beginning or was it something else?
R	No, the work has changed a lot.
I	What was it before?
R	It was a provision store before.
I	Provision store?
R	Yes, then we had wholesale confectionary, then it was juice shop.
I	Okay.
R	Three years back, this was a juice counter.
I	Okay, did you start this Photostat work, two-three years back?
R	This work was there previously as well, last in 1990. But we had left it.
I	Okay, why?
R	Because I was not involved, my brother was doing this work. We would get into fights over this.
I	Okay, Titan…?
R	[06:12 - ?] Then in Gulf (?) he earned good amount of money. But now he does not need more money. Then he went to Haj and got back to this work.
I	Okay.
R	Now it is the juice shop [06.27-06.31] … flies, mosquitoes and a lot of filth, the machines are still lying around…
I	So you are involved with this for the last two-three years?
R	Yes, two years and it is good work. I believe in God, that’s it. I try to help out those are poor and I try to profit out of rich people.
	[Interviewer laughs]
R	That’s the truth. Those are poor labourers, they work hard throughout the day and charge like 400-500 rupees. They charge like 300 rupees… the cement is still on. For them, I try to guide them well – you have to do it this way, you should not cross through the bushes, whether you come to me during morning hours or evening, I will do the Aadhaar related work. It should not be that we exploit them.
I	Around what time do you open your shop? 7:30?
R	I open the shop around 8:15 or 08:30 am…
I	And till when do you keep your shop open at night?
R	At night, around 8 pm.
I	So your shop is open for 12 hours straight?
R	No, not for 12 hours, madam. So I leave my place at 6-6:30 am. And guess what time do I wake up?
I	At 5 am? Before that?
R	Between 4:30 to 5:30 am, I wake up and then freshen up, take a shower. Then I drink some green tea. It’s my favourite. Then I catch a bus at 6:30 am or 7.
I	Where do you stay?
R	Ahead of BCS…
I	New Shimla?
R	No, ahead of BCS.
I	So you take a bus from there? Have you always stayed there?
R	We were at Krishna Nagar before, we have shifted many a times… As and when family circumstances changed…
I	Krishna Nagar… As in when your family expanded?
R	Yes, family members increased…
I	Okay, okay… and what about this shop? Is it you own or does it belong to the Corporation?
R	This coffee house belongs to the Corporation. From the last 50-60 years, since my father’s time, it’s on rent basis…
I	So it was allotted to him?
R	The rent used to be Rs. 12, which means it’s almost free. Neither can it be emptied, it’s ours…
I	Where is the dustbin? So, we were talking about the history of Lower Bazaar when I interrupted you in between. I am so sorry. So you were saying…
R	Lower Bazaar has developed a lot, in the initial years it was very slow… now it is very developed. [Called out to a woman when her purse fell] See her purse had fallen, picked it up for her. Even if someone’s Apple phone is misplaced, worth 40,000-50,000 rupees, it will get returned as well.
I	Okay, so you mentioned the shops, before it used to be…
R	Those who have the place, he is getting very good money, madam.
I	Those who own their shops?
R	If you go to Fatehgarh (?), then there won’t be a more expensive shop than this?
I	Why?
R	The shops are not there.
I	Has the rent become very expensive?
R	Yes, it has become quite expensive, for instance, how do I explain this to you… Like if you go looking for a particular vegetable and if that is not available in the market, then even if you pay 500 rupees per kilo, you won’t get it. Even if it gets sold at 20 rupees per kilo. And now you are saying you would pay 500 – that is the difference. A shop which used to cost 10-20 lakhs, in today’s date it is 2 crores but it is not available.
I	So people do not want to give their shops away?
R	Yes, they don’t want that.
I	Whether it is on rent…
R	Rent or for sale…
I	Why is it so? Why don’t people want that?
R	They don’t want to give… Even if someone pays me 50 lakhs, I won’t give it away.
I	Okay…
R	I am getting very good money from here. I have an income source. I have a family. If I die someday, there is a medical facility as well. My parents left it for me, similarly, I will give it to my children. That is how it is – no one wants to sell off, because… [Talks to a customer] So that is the case here.
I	What other changes have you observed in Lower Bazaar? You have witnessed it, almost since your childhood…
R	The crowd has increased, the rush…
I	Since when has the rush increased?
R	In the last fifteen to twenty years…
I	So that would be since the year 2000? What exactly happened around that time which impacted the rush?
R	The population increased… A lot of people came from outside. Sunday markets used to be there, there is a lot of rush then.
I	Even when I came on Sunday, that’s yesterday, there was a market. Since when has this market, the mandi the Sunday bazaar been there?
R	There used to a huge rush on Sundays and then the people from MC had made them vacate the place. But now again they have started…
I	When did they start the market again?
R	Since three weeks or so.
I	Okay, so it was not happening before that?
R	No.
I	How come they started the market again? What reasons led to that?
R	Reason being, everyone wants to earn money. Those people who were settled here previously, suppose, you used to set up a shop here, you would earn 4000-5000 rupees... Like this…
I	Now the MC is not stopping them?
R	That’s due to election, nothing is happening. Neither do they pick anyone, nor chase them. The government is not taking any action. Now you are from Solam, Chandigarh. So, you would also put up a shop, a local person would also put up a shop. So the local is not a voter, like this…
I	Okay, so… Please go ahead. So, this local market is put up by both outsiders and locals?
	[customer comes in]
R	Madam is a social worker here.
I	Okay.
R	She is a very nice lady. And she does good work.
I	Social worker as in, are you associated with any organization?
Social worker (SW)	Ours is party-based actually…
I	Okay, which party is it?
SW	Centre of Indian Trade Unions…
I	Okay, okay. Where do you stay?
SW	Paldya, near Durgapur… it’s far off, in Sunitpur…
I	So do you have an office here?
SW	Yes.
I	Where is it located?
SW	One is Lower cantonment road…
I	And the other one?
SW	It is nearby, behind the AG office.
I	Okay, okay… [SW leaves]
I	So what is your opinion about these shops that people put up? Should they put them up or should they be regulated?
R	You think about it this way, the shopkeeper would be very worried… why?
I	Why?
R	You tell me, as per your general knowledge?
I	Regarding the space, or what?
R	Someone selling shoes, suppose you get from Agra, suppose you deliver 10,000 rupees worth of shoes… whose sale would be affected by that?
I	The main shopkeeper…
R	Now you know… whose sale decreased? What do you think? You are a well-read person, whose sale decreased?
I	The permanent shopkeeper, who sits daily.
R	The one who has opened the shop. During winters, it’s about warm clothes, jackets like the one you are wearing – if they are being sold for 200 bucks, then would you go to showrooms after that? So, the shopkeeper is dependent on the sale… Now if you come and sit here for here, whether you spent 500 bucks while travelling or less if you climbed onto a shared vehicle, suppose. Then if you earn 5000… but it’s negative impact is borne by other shopkeepers. Is the shopkeeper a fool? Suppose if the rent for the shop is 2000 per night, minimum would be 60,000 per month, 50-60,000 okay? So the person sitting here for free would go away without paying anything.
	[talks to another customer about registering mobile number]
I	So uncle, what do you really like about Lower Bazaar?
R	It is my primary income source, the location is great, I can stay busy the whole day. As you sow, so shall you reap.
I	What do you like about the location?
R	People can meet and come together [20:55-20:59 – hammering sound blurs the voice] you would see…
I	Yes, there was a good talk, it felt nice.
R	We took up each other’s time. There are people of all natures – both good and bad. Those people also come here who [21:32-33-??] From morning to evening, five fingers [21:39-48 - ??]
	[customer comes in for Aadhaar card]
I	Is there any place in Lower Bazaar that you are fond of or have good memories attached to it?
R	It is the shops for me.
I	Which ones?
R	The old ones, I don’t know if you would like them…
I	Which old one do you like?
R	There are a lot of old shops, like the one opposite the restaurant – for other people, he is a barber, for us he is our brother.
I	So is that a very old shop?
R	Very old, before [22:51 -??]
	[another customer]
I	So I was talking about Lower Bazaar – what all needs to change here?
R	All these buildings that have turned really old, if you step out and look at them… There are varied styles of buildings, you should definitely take some pictures…
I	Yes, I have clicked quite a few.
R	You can take a picture of my building as well.
I	Okay.
R	There are some flowers here, stones are out here… there is a cooperative society building, so nothing to worry.
	[talks to customer]
I	Yes, you mentioned the buildings…
R	The buildings are old, rest are all right…
I	What else need to change?
R	What will change here? Nothing, really.
I	Smart city is coming up…
R	This cannot become a smart city.
I	Why so?
R	The people here, shall I tell you the truth?
I	Yes, please. What’s the truth?
R	People here don’t have manners. They spit anywhere, they discard garbage here and there. When the foreigners visit, those girls, if they eat bananas they would ask where to throw the peels. But if it is our Sardarji – he will question others but if he eats himself, he will throw it away carelessly. That is the truth.
I	What about Swachh Bharat here?
R	When they don’t discard waste properly, I say yes, this is their Swachh Bharat.
I	Have there been meetings here regarding smart city?
R	I was not involved. I get reminded that we will not improve this way. Impossible. How will it become a smart city? Water is not available here, with the MC here. Water is available after three days…
I	Even now?
R	Yes. And they claim they will provide water, so people should get tanks. The girl sitting over there… so we had some guests over. They asked me why I did not turn up? I was arranging for water. It was not available. Two tanks were filled up but we need it in the kitchen, the bathroom…
I	Back up water…
R	We store it… whenever the water is available, we take a shower like in alternate days but if water is not available for three days straight…
I	Oh did this happen recently?
R	About 5-6 days back. My brother asked for the contact number of the person in charge of water. We stay in ‘Chota Shimla’… I dialled the number but they were lying from the other side. I asked, ‘Who is speaking?’. ‘I am the key man’ or something else. I said I am from ‘Amar ujala’. So I continued to say, you were making a lot of claims/promises. So, I told them how they were not supplying water. [customer comes in] So Madamji, I told him, ‘Listen son, a lot of people have gathered together regarding the water issue. You have not supplied water for the past three days.’ Without any answer, the person kept asking where was I calling from. I repeated that I am from ‘Amar ujala’ but these people have approached with an application. So, I have to published it in the newspaper. So when would they get water? ‘Today after lunch,’ replied the person on the other end. This was around 11 am. So, I said after lunch is a long time, till evening. Then he said 5 o’clock. So, I said okay, you should look out for the news the next day. I was actually calling from my shop here. [Interviewer laughs] After about half an hour, my brother called me to inform that the water supply is back. I lied as well. [Both of them laugh] There is a lot of corruption, one house does not have water supply but some places do. Why?
I	How come?
R	There are two reasons. The key man has a role to play along with ‘he man’. That is the issue.
I	Right.
R	if your place does not get water supply for three days, what would you do?
I	It will be a big trouble.
R	We can go and use another bathroom but when guests are over, how do you tell them that there is no water in the house? It has such a bad impact on our society. [talks with the customer for billing]
I	So, under Smart city plan, there was something about re-developing the Lower Bazaar area…
R	I am well-connected with BJP, especially R. Rajye…
I	Okay.
R	Do you know R. Rajye?
I	No.
R	Education Minister.
I	Okay…
R	His photos are here…
I	Okay, okay.
R	The government is there but I would still stay that they are not being able to serve the society… they are doing all this, how will you improve people’s lives? If I tell you one direction, but you are going downhill, then how will it be?
I	So since when are you with the BJP?
R	A long time…
I	Since when? As a worker or supporter?
R	Worker and supporter, both.
I	Since when have you been associated?
R	After ’84. When the Congress unleased a very bad situation here. They killed the Sikhs…
I	Did that affect Shimla as well?
R	They killed Sikhs in Shimla, then there were riots in Delhi, Kanpur. Till date, the Sikhs have not got any justice. It’s been 35 years… When your dog gets lost, you file a report for that; and when the dog dies and you know which car is responsible, then you go and ask the driver for money… Thousands of Sikhs died, so many murders, bloodshed… what’s your age?
I	28.
R	28. This happened 35 years ago. When people were publicly beaten, killed. A girl lost her father, another lost her husband.
I	Did these riots take place in Shimla?
R	Yes. It did happen here. Our shop was looted. [customer comes in] So why did such murders happen? Because of Gandhi, After Gandhi got killed... Then Rajiv Gandhi…
I	Then, a lot must have changed here after that in Shimla…
R	We left this place, all the Sardars left for Punjab or someplace else…
I	Did you also have to leave?
R	Yes.
I	Where did you go?
R	I went to Mauldi. Loots became commonplace here. They looted Sardars.
I	Okay.
R	They looted the shops. Have you [35:44-46 - ??] They destroyed their machines. Because of Congress, and their leader was Rajiv Gandhi. Ask other people around… A few I told you, one is Ashirwad and the sardarji shop. If you want to know more, talk to the old ones. The ones in Ashirwad belonged to Pakistan.
I	Where is this hop?
R	Ashirwad, from here after crossing about 50-60 shops, you will reach the place.
I	What do they sell?
R	Garments, clothes…
I	Alright. I will find it.
R	Tell them *** ji sent you.
I	The younger generation must be born here, the previous ones were from Pakistan. My father shared a good friendship with them.
R	Okay. 
R	My daughter is younger than you, three years’ difference. She is pursuing her B.A. And look at the old lady, she is preparing for ‘Haj’… so where do you stay?
I	In Delhi. Right now, parents are in Agra.
R	Okay.
I	But otherwise, my grandmother draws her lineage from Lahore and grandfather’s from Pakhtun.
R	And you are in Delhi. I would get a lot of stuff from Sadar Bazaar for my business.
I	Okay, what kind of things?
R	Varied things…
I	Like?
R	A lot of things – anything seasonal. Like confectionary last year… I would also sell it in wholesale.
I	Okay. So, you would keep travelling then.
R	I would go to Chandni Chowk, Bangla Sahib in CP.
I	Yes.
R	My cousin brother was in the Canadian embassy…
I	Oh okay… I had these many questions only… Okay sir, just one last thing that I want to ask – what are the things most important to you in Shimla? Any place, people?
R	I don’t like anything particularly. [talks to other people]



SI017
I	Bhaiya, since I am standing and talking to you and I won’t be able to write much, is it okay if I record it? Whatever information you give me…
R	Please write it, Ma’am, side by side.
I	I would listen to it and anyway write again. So what is your full name, you said?
R	*** ***.
I	What’s your age?
R	27 years.
I	Okay. Where you hail from originally?
R	I am from Kinnaur.
I	And since when have you been putting up a stall here?
R	This stall is since the time of Graham Bazaar. Since my dadi’s time.
I	So how many years has it been?
R	In years, around 35-40 years.
I	Okay, till when did they manage the stall?
R	First it was my dada followed by my dad, now it’s me.
I	Okay, and what does your dad do now?
R	My dad is on rest now.
I	And where do you stay?
R	In Sanjoli.
I	Since when are you staying in Sanjoli?
R	I have been in Sanjoli since my childhood. I was born here.
I	And when have you been looking after the stall?
R	It’s been four to five years.
I	Where do you get your stock from?
R	Stock, sometimes from here. Otherwise from downhill.
I	Downhill where?
R	From Delhi, Chandigarh… if we happen to go, we get the stock from there or else we get it from here.
I	Alright. So, is it a registered stall or how is it?
R	It is registered with the Committee.
I	Which Committee?
R	Municipal Corporation (Nagar Nigam).
I	So is it registered as a permanent stall? Since when?
R	Permanent stall… it’s been a while since registration. It’s been 15 years.
I	Please sit…
R	No, it’s okay.
I	Do you know how it was registered?
R	No, I don’t know regarding the registration. My dad did the registration.
I	Okay, okay. So, for registration, does one have to let them know how much the area is?
R	They divide the area in feet.
I	So how much foot is this?
R	2.5-3 feet.
I	So have you always sold this?
R	Before khadi, we would sell bangles etc.
I	Okay, then? What about your dad?
R	Dad came after that… that business was over, wasn’t as profitable.
I	This work is better, then?
R	This has more benefits.
I	So do you face any problems while running the stall? From the Nagar Nigam?
R	Sometimes the Committee people trouble us… they don’t directly tell us to remove the stall but they would ask us to move it backwards. When there is a big vehicle, say a fire brigade, they come up to this point.
I	Okay. But then you do have permission, right?
R	Yes. The permission is not up till here but little backwards.
I	Okay, okay.
R	During my dadi’s time, the stall was backwards only. It used to here only. Then gradually it started to be moved to the front.
I	Okay.
R	That ways, no one says anything usually.
I	Do you all have any Traders’ Association or other workers’ collective? Like the shopkeepers have a vyapar mandal, so do the people with stalls have anything like that?
R	We have a Pradhan amongst those who have stalls here. He is not here yet.
I	Who is it?
R	His surname is *** ***.
I	Could you introduce me to this person?
R	His visits are not that frequent?
I	Where can I look for him?
R	Meeting him would be difficult. He is a politician, so he would be busy with that. [deals with customers]
I	So since it was raining yesterday, did you put up your stall then?
R	Yes, we do put up our stall when it rains.
I	Then does it cause any problem?
R	Not much. But yeah, it might affect business but I have kept a few big umbrellas for such situations.
I	Okay…
I	Do you face any issue with the smell of the sandals or are you habituated now?
R	It has become a habit now.
I	Alright, so how do you like Lower Bazaar?
R	Lower Bazaar has become better, Ma’am.
I	Has it improved from before?
R	It’s okay, if I have to compare it with previous times.
I	Why? How so?
R	It used to be a small place, it was good.
I	What was better that time?
R	Now there is a price rise. In our times, the merchandise used to be less costly.
I	Okay… so apart from price rise, what other changes have you seen since childhood?
R	The area of the market was smaller before, now it has been expanded…
I	Okay, when did this expansion take place?
R	It’s been some years now. Previously, there used to be less space.
I	Then, did the Nagar Nigam make new streets or what did they do?
R	They expanded it. The roads have remained the same.
I	But how did they go about it, because the shops must be the same?
R	The shops used to be in front but now they have been moved backwards. They did some new settings for the shop.
I	How long has it been?
R	During my dad’s time, 10-12 years back.
I	Okay, okay. Any other changes in Lower Bazaar?
R	Nothing else as such…
I	Have the number of shops increased or have they remained the same?
R	It has been this way since old times.
I	But has the number of stalls been the same?
R	There used to be more stalls.
I	What happened to them?
R	Nagar Nigam gave them shops or made complexes. We have been given a shop near ridge but we don’t get much business done there. It is all underground, so people do not flock in there. Those who have shops there, they got habituated with the Bazaar…
I	So did you get a shop from the Nagar Nigam?
R	Yes, I did.
I	So is that shop still there?
R	Yes.
I	So what is there in that shop?
R	My dad sits in that shop nowadays.
I	Okay, okay. What business do you run there?
R	Passport.
I	What is the name of shop?
R	A name has not been finalized yet, it’s only been 2-3 months.
I	Okay, okay. So, after we cross ridge, is it the place near AP office?
R	The place where the horses are usually there.
I	Okay, the place where electricity bills are paid?
R	No, electricity bills are on the other side, ahead of that.
I	Ahead of that, okay. Actually, I have never seen that place yet.
R	It’s not usually seen, it’s underground.
I	So how many people have been allotted shops by Nagar Nigam in that place?
R	Around 20-30 people… but very less number of people.
I	But do people sit there?
R	It’s very less, about 4-5 people.
I	People are mostly here.
R	Yes. Only 4-5 people actually sit there.
I	Okay. So about Lower Bazaar, you said it has become a habit now. [customer comes in] So what do you like about the Bazaar?
R	The ambience is really good. People keep coming here. In Mall Road, one is very busy with the shop. There one might also be spending time alone.
I	Yeah, people do flock in to this place.
R	This is the main market, so people will definitely visit to buy some goods.
I	It is quite lively here.
R	People turn up from everywhere, even some distant locations. One of the changes is that previously there used to be a bus stop here.
I	The one which got shifted to Tootikandi?
R	Yes, it used to be here.
I	Here, downhill?
R	The old bus stand…
I	Okay, okay.
R	Since the time it shifted to Tootikandi, that has affected our work.
I	Has it decreased? Why?
R	Before, people used to come here but now they rush to Tootikandi.
I	Is there any market there?
R	There is no market as such but there are shops.
I	Okay, okay.
R	They have built a complex. People used to visit this market, buy goods and then go downhill… the distance has increased too.
I	Yes.
R	People had more time in hand and they would look for things they would like to buy. Now sometimes they get stuck in traffic.
I	Do you leave all your stuff here at night?
R	Yes, yes.
I	Do you face any problem?
R	No problem, so far. There is a watchman…
I	Oh, there is a watchman at night…? Like privately hired or through Nagar Nigam?
R	Nagar Nigam.
I	Okay, so they are here at night.
R	Police personals also patrol at night, so there is no problem as such.
I	Okay, have you heard of the smart city? What is happening under that?
R	Nothing is happening under smart city…
I	Are there any meetings here? By councillors…?
R	Meetings do take place but it is attended by higher authorities only.
I	Have you ever…
R	The meetings take place in DC office, I have heard many a times.
I	Okay, okay, so what is happening under smart city? What do you think about it?
R	There is not much difference through smart city, it’s all been the same. Yes, it has become slightly cleaner than before.
I	Since when?
R	From the time they installed dustbins. Otherwise, people used to litter everywhere. People are now using dustbins properly.
I	Since when is this happening?
R	This is happening post-2000.
I	Since when? 2000?
R	Yes.
I	That means since 18-19 years?
R	Yes.
I	Okay, tell me what do you thin should happen under a smart city? What all should be ‘smart’ here?
R	It’s alright, as it is.
I	Okay.
R	How much smarter are they trying to…
I	How do you understand the ‘smart’ in smart city?
R	First of all, there is a huge problem of traffic here. The roads are smaller and there are a lot of vehicles. This whole area is under Shimla. If one wants to travel by a car, one leaves early in order to avoid the traffic.
I	How do you commute from Sanjoli? By bus?
R	I commute via bike. With bikes, there isn’t much of a problem. One can ride through with bikes. Sometimes I see the vehicles all lined up, if one has to reach at 10, they would reach at 11. The roads are narrow.
I	Okay, so traffic needs to be regulated in a smart city… what else?
R	Now they constructed a complex near the lift.
I	For shops?
R	The have constructed a lot near the parking space…
I	Shops?
R	Parking.
I	Okay, what they have constructed for parking…
R	No matter how much parking space you built, cars will still be parked on the roadside. [talks with customers] They are making four-lane roads near the bypass. The people from the city are bound to travel… I don’t know if the four-lane roads will work… about traffic…
I	And, what about technological developments under smart city? Or something that you want should happen?
R	Since the time of 4G, everyone is stuck with their phones, even while walking by. Everyone is busy with their phones.
I	Yes, that’s true. [laughs] What else could be ‘smart’?
R	What would be smart… cleanliness has come about but there is no change in terms of traffic management. Actually, the main problem in Shimla is the people in power misuse a lot of money.
I	Is there a lot of corruption?
R	Yes, all the higher authorities you would meet here in the DC office, even if you have to get a small work done, they will take a lot of time. But if you pay them, then they will get your work done. That happens. Those who know some people, their work gets completed. But for poor people, their time gets wasted.
I	Yes…
R	It is difficult for poor people…
I	Has the Nagar Nigam conducted any surveys in the last few years amongst stalls or people, regarding their expectations?
R	They keep conducting surveys.
I	Okay, what type?
R	Those who have… they don’t ask them.
I	I did not understand that.
R	As in, for instance, we have a stall, we have been told before that we should shift uphill (?) but if people do not act collectively, how ill that happen? One single person cannot put up a stall. There is no unity…
I	Okay, so till the time 10-15 stalls do not shift together, one single handedly cannot form a marketplace?
R	Yes. Even if it is 2-3 people, that would not work well.
I	Okay. So, was there a survey regarding this? Has the Nagar Nigam ever asked what people want?
R	No, nothing like that. They did not ask us anything. It’s the Pradhan who keeps attending meetings, from time to time.
I	What was his name again? *** ***?
R	Yes.
I	Does he have a shop here?
R	That stall, the one after this.
I	Okay. He has set that up.
R	Yes.
I	Okay, okay. What do you think should change in Lower Bazaar?
R	It should be an open space, more space so that people can walk freely. There is very less space.
I	Yes, like I had visited on a Sunday…
R	On Sundays, there is a huge rush. There is no space to even walk. The space for the shops is also restricted, we cannot extend more than this.
I	If we have to make a flexible space for this, how does one proceed with that?
R	It will be very difficult.
I	What do you think could be done?
R	There could be a partition on top.
I	As in putting up shops on the upper floor?
R	No, the way flyovers are made. So, something like a flyover…
I	To walk…
R	To walk, then…
I	Okay, but how will people access the shops?
R	There are stairs as well, right? So, stairs could lead to shops and rest of the people can continue walking on the flyover…
I	Isn’t that how Mall Road is? The space to walk?
R	Mall Road is quite high up.
I	Yes, around five floors high.
R	One would have to climb so many stairs. People ask about the route to Mall Road and then they reach the stairs they give up thinking they wouldn’t be able to climb so many stairs. People from the plains are not habituated… so how will they climb so many stairs?
I	Yes, that true.
R	They will get very tired.
I	Yes, hundreds of stairs. So there needs to be more space. What else needs to be changed in Lower Bazaar?
R	Rest is okay, Ma’am. Nothing else. Things would not change that much, unless there is a good government in place. There was a voting on 19th. So, if a good government comes to power, then things might change.
I	What kind of changes?
R	That the government would know better, they keep getting budget money. They distribute amongst themselves, work a little, there is too much corruption.
I	So how far have you studied?
R	Plus 2 degree (high school, Class 12), I was in a city sales’ job – Himachal Sports Dealership.
I	Sports dealership?
R	Yes, I worked there for five years. I could not save much. I have to contribute for the household, then save some money for myself. What will I do in 10-12,000?
I	What have you thought about your future? Your shop?
R	I want to accomplish more.
I	Will you stay back in this place? What are your personal plans?
R	I have to run the stall here itself. It suits my budget. [deals with customers]
I	So since you have a registered stall, have you ever thought of building a structure around it? Like a building?
R	It is not allowed.
I	Not allowed?
R	It is anyway such a small space. The Nagar Nigam suddenly comes in and tears apart everything.
I	Do you pay rent to Nagar Nigam for this space?
R	They used to in the beginning.
I	How long back was that?
R	During dad’s time, around 8-10 years.
I	Have they ever troubled you to remove your stall from here? Since they have allotted a different shop to you as well?
R	No, no.
I	Lastly, so what we are trying to do is, you know the map of Shimla, we want to highlight [deals with customers] so whoever I am talking to, what according to you makes Shimla the place it is? Like if I am staying in Delhi, then Delhi Metro would be very important. It could be a bazaar or a shop… anything that holds a special memory for you? Places or people who are important for you?
R	Places have changed a lot around here… the place where I stay, in Sanjoli, there used to a lot of trees around but since the bypass was constructed, the climate has also changed. It used to snow in Shimla but nowadays it only snows for a limited period of time and then it is gone. [deals with customers]


SI018
I	What is your name, Sir?
R	My name is *** ***.
I	How old are you?
R	I am 49 years old.
I	Where are you from? Shimla?
R	No. I was born in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh. I was about ten or twelve years old when I came to Shimla with my father. I grew up here. I had a five-year stint in a formal job. It’s been more than twenty years since I started my own business in Lower Bazaar. Since then, I have struggled to keep my shop afloat in these streets. Whenever there is space available in the market, we wriggle through and set up shop.
I	Did your father also have a similar shop here?
R	Yes. He had set up a stall near the Rivali road.
I	Is that the place where there is a Tibetan market?
R	Yes, yes. The Rivali road is below the Tibetan market.
I	What did your father trade in?
R	My father used to sell vegetables. After he passed away, my elder brother took over the stall and runs it now.
I	Does he sell vegetables too?
R	No. He sells savoury snacks on the stall now.
I	Is that the only shop for savouries on that street?
R	No. There are two. The other one is a little further up the hill. It also sells chips and packaged products like Kurkure. You will find those hanging on the stalls. My eldest brother manages this particular one. You would find him to be slightly plump.
I	Since I live in that part of the town, I frequent the roads. So, I am familiar with the place.
R	Where exactly?
I	In a guest house near the bus stand on Lakkar Bazaar.
R	Okay.
I	I usually take the tunnel for regular commuting. Coming back, you said you have had this stall for the last twenty years. Have you always traded in fabric and clothes or do you change businesses as well?
R	Yes. I have been trading in textiles for the last twenty years. However, I also make seasonal changes. I put up summer clothes for sale during the summer and winter clothing during winter.
I	Where do you procure the items for business?
R	We get them from the plains down the hill, from Delhi. Sometimes we also procure them from the wholesale dealers in this market. We usually go by convenience.
I	How often do you go to Delhi?
R	Once in a month or a month and a half.
I	Where do you live in Shimla now?
R	Earlier, I used to live in Idgah. It is below Lakkar Bazaar. Then I moved to a place near the old bus stand. Now, I have shifted to Chhota Shimla.
I	Why? Isn’t it farther from here?
R	After my wedding, we were just the two of us. We could manage living in a single-room house. Now, I have two children, ten-year-old and the other eight years old. It is difficult to manage in a single room with two children. We got a better place in Chhota Shimla as part of a room settlement, so we moved into it.
I	Do you own the place or do you pay rent?
R	We pay rent for the rooms.
I	Is your stall registered?
R	No. It is not registered. However, a few years back, before the elections, a few committee members came over to enumerate the street hawkers. They had written down the names and addresses. There is an unofficial registry.
I	They didn’t seek individual registration. They had simply listed down names and addresses of hawkers on the street.
R	Yes. They noted down details of the hawkers, but they never designated a permanent space to us. After the elections, the same committee members came down here to shut down shops. We shut it down and opened business again after they left. It is okay to free up the roads. But we would prefer that they adjust the people who have been working here for a long time into the existing space. Let them clean up the entire Lower Bazaar if that is what they want, but they should keep the interest of the hawkers who have been making a livelihood on these streets for ages. There was a plan to create space in Sanjauli for hawkers. I don’t know why that project was shelved.
I	When was this plan conceived?
R	As far as I remember, it was two or three years ago.
I	Okay. There has been no follow-up since then?
R	We heard nothing of it after that.
I	Did they initiate any conversation regarding possible registration of hawkers?
R	No. Nothing like that has occurred till now.
I	Is there a hawker’s union?
R	Usually a union is formed when worker’s face frequent trouble from the administration. We haven’t faced such kind of troubles yet.
I	I was suggesting if there was anything like the Byapaar Mandal, the shopkeepers’ union. Is there any such unionisation among those running the stalls who could submit the demands before the committee?
R	We have a person who mediates our case with the committee. He has been chosen as the leader amongst us.
I	Who is that person?
R	I don’t remember his name. If you take the Gunj road downhill from Sundar Pansari chowk, you will come across footwear stalls. The person running the first stall with an array of footwear, would be able to give you the information on the leader of the hawkers. You should talk to him. He is usually abreast with the details.
I	Have you ever approached him with a problem? How does he resolve the issue?
R	Yes, I have gone to him with my problems. He takes up the issue on our behalf. Usually, whenever there are problems, all of us come together and discuss it with him. He represents us in front of the committee or the police. He does take a stand for us.
I	How many hawkers are there in Lower Bazaar?
R	I guess... Well, do you want to include the farmers market?
I	You could give a separate count for the farmers market if you have the numbers?
R	My calculation is there would be at least thirty hawkers in the farmer’s market. Total street vendors in Lower Bazaar would be somewhere between seventy to hundred.
I	Is this your permanent spot or have you moved recently?
R	I used to set up shop in another place earlier.
I	Where is that?
R	The first place I set up my cart was in Ram Bazaar. Then I moved to the tunnel. It was a long time ago, when there were no railings built. After that I moved to another spot beside the tunnel. Then I moved here and have been operating on this chowk since the last twelve years. I have also spent four to five years in that place over there, where you can now see the mobile phone shop, before I settled on the present spot.
I	Why do you have to move? For example, why did you have to move from Ram Bazaar first?
R	None of us had any permanently designated space. Whenever we left a spot, it used to get occupied by someone else. I don't have to pay rent for the shop I am stationed in front of right now. In return I run small errands or do some chores like cleaning the shop for the person who owns this space. I help him get tea, cigarettes, tobacco and anything he needs for his work. So, I have not faced any trouble for setting up shop in this spot.
I	So, he doesn’t find it convenient that you set up shop here. You would say there is a mutual understanding between both of you.
R	Yes.
I	Does this shop not open regularly?
R	It opens once in a while. Actually, this stall renders clairvoyance services like looking into people’s horoscopes. He opens once in a blue moon. Continue with your questions, please.
I	When you shifted here from your previous place, did someone else occupy it?
R	At the previous place I was stationed in front of a hotel just like the case here. No one had any problem with that. Over a period of time the hotel began losing business. To cover the losses, they rented out the place. The tenants would not be happy with a vendor in the front, right?  I had to move after that.
I	How do you like working in Lower Bazaar?
R	I like working here very much. More than that I love Shimla. Everything is great here. The only hiccup is the trouble created by the committee people.
I	What do they want? They don’t want any hawker in the marketplace?
R	Yes. They ask us shut shop and move out.
I	What do you do then?
R	We comply and shut business, keeping our things aside.
I	Do you set aside your things here when you leave for home in the evening?
R	No, no. I make provision of keeping it secured somewhere in the marketplace.
I	Where do you keep the things? Isn’t it a huge problem to leave it unattended?
R	No. We keep it secured inside one of the shops here. We pack our things in sacks and keep it inside.
I	Do you have to pay something in return?
R	No, no. We don’t have to pay anything.
I	It is a mutual understanding, then.
R	We have been working here together for decades. There is trust among people here. We can avail some basic help from colleagues here.
I	What do you like about Lower Bazaar? Any special place or fond memories of a place you would like to talk about?
R	It’s alright here. Nothing specifically important to reiterate. I like the fact that people here are polite and nice.
I	What else?
R	This is it.
I	You had said earlier that you liked Shimla? What is it about Shimla that draws you to it?
R	The ambience here is good.
I	What do you mean?
R	I mean there is little conflict or tension among people here. People are well-mannered. They are polite in their interactions. The weather is splendid. That’s why I like Shimla a lot.
I	Yes. The weather is really nice in Shimla. So, you have been working here in different places over twenty years. What changes have you noticed in Lower Bazaar?
R	I have noticed that business has plummeted over the years.
I	Why do you think so?
R	Probably because competition has increased manifold in recent years.
I	What other changes have you noticed?
R	You would have noticed as well that the population here has increased. The town of Shimla was developed for a population of 25000. Now, millions live here. That is the biggest change.
I	Have there been changes in the nature of shops here? Has the number increased over the years?
R	Of course the number of shops has increased. If you think about it, the erstwhile odd places like Chhota Shimla and BCL have developed recently. Those areas have farmers markets and general stores now.  That has made a huge difference in business here.
I	Is it because customers have also moved those places?
R	Yes. Earlier, Lower Bazaar was the single marketplace for the people of Shimla. People used to come from far off places to shop here. Now, every street has shops and stalls. So, business in Lower Bazaar has dwindled.
I	What changes in condition of roads or accessibility of utilities have you observed in Shimla in general or even in Lower Bazaar in particular over the last twenty years?
I	What changes would you want to see in Lower Bazaar?
R	I wouldn’t know about such things.
I	For example, you suggested the committee people should do something.
R	Yes. They should do something (about our situation).
I	Apart from designating a place for hawkers, what else should they do? You belong to Shimla now that you lived here for almost twenty years. As a town what part of Shimla needs improvement?
R	Of course I belong to Shimla. I have lived here for more than twenty years. But I don’t see any major shortcomings in the town.
I	Have you heard about smart cities?
R	Yes, I had heard of it.
I	What does it entail?
R	I had heard that a smart city would come up wherein the temporary stalls would be demolished, street vendors removed from the roads. I don’t know how far it is going to be put into practice.
I	If the stalls or vendors are removed to widen the roads, how would it affect you?
R	We would obviously be in trouble. We would lose our means of livelihood. Hopefully the committee people will take the necessary steps. The older people here, who have been a part of our lives and have seen us running shop since decades, have our backs. In Ram Bazaar there were so many hawkers lined up that ultimately stalls were created to systematically place them on a side of the roads. Now, they have set up there permanently.
I	When was this done?
R	It’s been two to three years. Some people were allotted stalls. Others were given a measured space within which they could operate their business. They have a permanent space of their own now. We want something of that sort to be provided to us.
I	You want a designated spot?
R	I am fine with any viable provision made for us. Let them remove the entire Lower Bazaar market if they wish to. But they should provide us with viable alternatives so that we can make a living. About fifteen years ago there were stalls created on the ridge; the one where you would find horses. I was allotted a stall.
I	You got a space of your own?
R	Yes. I did.
I	After that?
R	It was downhill. We hardly got customers. Business came to a standstill. Nobody could even spot the stalls.
I	Yes. I haven’t even spotted them yet.
R	You can enquire about them. They are still there. There are a handful of people left there trying to make a living.
I	Business did not take off in that spot?
R	It came to a halt. Other than that, the place was freezing cold.
I	Oh. Okay.
R	Sometimes we went through an entire day without a single sale. Customers had no idea there were stalls put up in such places. So, vendors moved away and came back here. They said their children would die of hunger. How will we run our lives when there is no income coming from the stalls? It would be another thing if they raised the stalls to a height where people can notice them.
I	So you came back here. Did you open business there at any point in time? How long did you sit there?
R	Yes, I did sit there for a very small span of time. Most of us sat there for some four to five days and not a day more.
I	It is obviously difficult to carry on for days without the daily income. Did the committee people harass you for leaving the designated spot?
R	The committee raised objections initially, but all of us explained them the problem.
I	You mentioned there was some plan afoot in Sanjauli?
R	I had heard of similar plans in Sanjauli or Snowdon aimed at creating stalls for hawkers.
I	The scheme becomes alive, would that be beneficial to you?
R	Of course it will be beneficial. There is no question of any untoward event. Rather having a permanent space would save us from being harassed by the committee or from the police levying a fine. Honestly speaking, we get their point. The roads are congested. If you take a walk towards the farmers market, you will find roads are more congested. When people lodge a complaint, the authorities have to enforce the law.  We can’t blame them for doing their job.
I	How much fine does the police levy on the challan?
R	Sometimes they issue a challan for two hundred rupees and sometimes it is for five hundred rupees. Major problem is the time when we have to go to court to pay the fine. We have to shut shop, having to lose the day’s earnings.
I	You are saying, if a challan is issued on the fine, you have to go to the court to pay the dues?
R	Yes, we have to pay in the court.
I	So, it is a waste of time and income.
R	Of course, it is a waste of a day. Initially we had to pay the challan in the District Court’s office nearby. So, we would go there between ten in the morning to twelve and then resume business afterwards. Now, we have to go to the court and that takes up an entire day.
I	Is the local court near the High Court?
R	Yes.
I	Has it ever happened that the committee people take the money directly after issuing challan?
R	No. They have never done anything like that.
I	They always follow protocol?
R	They issue us challan and we have to pay the fine at the court only. The challan is based on the degree of violation. They usually go for lower amounts. It varies from 50 rupees to 200 rupees. They have never charged us with more than five hundred rupees so far.
I	Have there been any discussions or consultations with the people in Lower Bazaar on the smart city initiatives?
R	I don’t know so much. You better contact the lady who you had a talk with a while ago. She can give you a lot of information.
I	Of course I will talk to her, but right now I would like to know your opinion.
R	You can ask her about the smart city thing.
I	Were you aware of a meeting of such kind?
R	No. I have no idea of any such meeting.
I	Okay. So, nothing of that sort has happened. What do you think the smart city is about?
R	What can I say?
I	Ever pondered over it?
R	No. I have not given it any thought.
I	What do you reckon smart city is about? What is the meaning of smart in smart city?
R	I don’t know about that.
I	No thought on it?
R	No.
I	According to you, if stalls are erected in Sanjauli, there would be a thriving market?
R	If you develop the right place, where the public has easy access, then a thriving market can be conceived.
I	You said you lived in Chhota Shimla. Did you ever want to start shop there?
R	I moved to Chhota Shimla around five to six months back.
I	Would you say the market here is better compared to that in Chhota Shimla?
R	Yes. This is better.
I	Is it because the customer flow is greater here?
R	Yes. There is higher footfall in this market given that Lower Bazaar is the main marketplace of Shimla. The earning we gain from here is enough for our daily lives.
I	Do you use a phone?
R	Yes.
I	Do you use a smartphone?
R	Yes. This kind, you see, the JIO phone.
I	You get the internet out of it?
R	Yes, but I don’t use the internet frequently.
I	What kind of Apps do you use?
R	I don’t use apps on the phone. I have not had proper education, so I don’t venture into those kinds of use.
I	Do you recharge your phone with data packs?
R	I recharge for regular calls. Whatever data I get in that pack I use for watching videos.
I	What kind of apps do you use for watching videos?
R	I have no idea what kind of app.
I	Do you use WhatsApp?
R	I use it only for work.
I	What about Facebook?
R	No. I don’t use Facebook.
I	You watch only videos?
R	It is my hobby to watch TV soaps and movies or news on the internet.
I	Okay. The first part of my project is to take interviews and the second part is about a mobile application we have developed. The app requires people to take pictures of places they deem important in the town, and upload them. For example, I am from Delhi and the metro rail service is the most important part of Delhi according to me. Without it Delhi would not be the same. Similarly, if I install the app in your phone, you could take pictures of places important to you. You can do it on Sundays or during your leisure period. You could take the picture of the chowk. It is important to you because you work here. If fifty people shared the photos of places they think are important to Shimla, we could draw a consensus on what is important to people in Shimla. Would you like to do that? We will give you the phone to keep for a week.
R	Well, I am usually very busy. I have to take care of home and work.
I	You can do it on your own time. It is not mandatory.
R	Okay.
I	I will come by next week and give you the phone with the app installed. In that light, would you like to talk about places in the town that are important to you? You could take into consideration the economic advantage or beauty of the place.
R	I think the hawkers should not be displaced from Lower Bazaar. Wherever the road is congested, the stalls could be moved back and placed on a spot convenient for everybody. But the place should be in Lower Bazaar.
I	Anything more you would like to talk about?
R	No. That’s all.


SI019
R	You could ask the others here.
I	I would like to talk to you first. In fact, I would be talking to at least fifty people here. We will not publish personal information like name or address. This is just a mere formality. So, what is your name? You had mentioned it was ***.
R	Yes. My name is *** ***.
I	How old are you?
R	I am five and eight.
I	You mean 58? You are so energetic at this age! How long have you been working here?
R	It’s been at least thirty or thirty-five years.
I	In this place?
R	Yes.
I	Before that?
R	Earlier, I used to be a hawker peddling goods in the Ambala cantonment. Since I didn’t have a fixed spot, I moved around the place.
I	What did you trade in?
R	Cosmetic products and other accessories.
I	Like what?
R	Things like lipstick, undergarments for women et cetera. Then I moved to Shimla.
I	Why did you move to Shimla?
R	My daughter lived in a hostel here. Initially I used to come to the Port Mor hostel in Shimla to deliver goods to the girls in the hostel. One day I had a breakdown. The warden of the hostel comforted me and asked me what had happened. I said I wished my daughter got her education here. I had left behind a four-year-old daughter back at home. There was nobody to look after her when I came here for work. The warden suggested I submit an application to provide accommodation for my daughter. I couldn’t afford the fees immediately. The girls in the hostel hosted a party and raised the funds for my daughter. Eventually I managed to pay for my daughter’s education. She studied till her 12th standard here, while living in Port Mor hostel. Now, she is in college. I have received a lot of help from the people here. Since I used to come here quite often to meet my daughter, I began opening trade in the marketplace on a temporary basis.
I	Where did you live then?
R	I used to live in the Kishan temple for the first seven days of my visits. I could stay in the hostel only the eighth day onwards. I started opening shop at the market at six in the morning. Gradually, I got a room on rent nearby and settled in. It’s been thirty years now. I have provided for my children on my own. I took care of their education and wedding. I have done all of it on my own.
I	What about your husband?
R	I had three children with my partner. It was common knowledge among friends and acquaintances that he lived among single women. If I objected, he abused me. That was another reason I considered starting afresh in Shimla. He followed us here and lived with us on and off. One fine day we asked him to leave us alone for good. As a result, he slapped me with a lawsuit.
I	What was the lawsuit about?
R	He said he will lay a claim on us through the court. I said it’s not like we were legally married, ever. So, the case would not hold water in the court. When I produced my children in the court as witnesses, it was resolved in my favour. I have always been a single mother.
I	*personal conversation with friend* Sorry.
R	So, I was saying, I started settling into the town. My sons and daughters-in-law are good people. They have always stood by me. Now I earn for myself and live for myself. I have no worries.
I	Daughters are married too?
R	I married off my daughter and then my sons. I have grandchildren now. Now, the committee has jotted down my name. Let us see when they allot the stalls to us.
I	That is something I wanted to ask. Is your shop registered?
R	Yes. The shop is registered with the authorities. The committee has our names. Once a spot is determined for our stalls, we will move. They don’t allow any new vendors to open shops here anymore.
I	Why is it so?
R	Now, they allow only those stalls which have been there in the list for a long time.
I	How long have you been in the list?
R	It’s been a really long time since my shop was enumerated.
I	How long would say approximately?
R	At least twenty-five years. Ours would be one of the oldest names in the list. Initially I used to sit near a toilet. It was the Mayor who said there was a small place available and suggested that I move here. I am okay here. Earlier I used to sit beside the dumping shed and do my work.
I	You used to work under a waste bin?
R	It used to be a dumping shed. I used to sit underneath. I had no other choice. I had to make a living under those circumstances.
I	Wasn’t it uncomfortable?
R	It was a huge inconvenience. There were days I skipped lunch because I couldn’t take the pungent smell coming from the waste.
I	Did you ever fall ill?
R	Yes. There was a time I was ill for not eating due to the smell. But what could I have done?
I	There is bad odour from this place here. Doesn’t it bother you?
R	It is a part of our lives here. It does not bother me now.
I	Has your health improved over time?
R	Yes, definitely. I am fine here. This place is better than the previous one.
I	Has the committee raised any objection over this arrangement?
R	No, no. They don’t bother me. They have issues with the new vendors on the street, but not with us.
I	Do you want to move to a different place or do you think you are fine wherever you are now?
R	I am fine wherever I am right now. It’s in the middle of the marketplace and I am a woman working alone. This place is accessible through public transport. It is easier for me to commute from home early in the morning.
I	Where do you live?
R	Here, in Lakkar Bazaar.
I	Have you been trading in the same type of goods all these years?
R	Yes. I have been dealing in the same kind of goods from the beginning.
I	Where do you procure the goods from?
R	I gather from several different places and other traders. I give them their share after I am done with selling the goods.
I	Any other difficulty you face sitting here?
R	No.
I	Do you want anything to change or would like the committee to improve any aspect of this place?
R	No. No. Nothing.
I	Everything is good as it is?
R	Yes, it is.
I	What about the new vendors, like those who started business five years back?
R	Even the new street hawkers have been registered. Only those who have come from outside recently have been barred to operate from here.
I	What do you mean by an outsider?
R	I mean people coming in from other towns like Chandigarh and setting shop for the Sunday market. Some of them who had set shop were not removed during the elections. After the elections were over, they were asked by the committee to dismantle the shop.
I	So the committee does not interfere when the elections are round the corner.
R	Yes. Till the elections were over, they were allowed to open makeshift stalls. After that the committee asked them to leave. They raise objections to stalls being set up in front of the main shops.
I	Most of the shops here have extended their premises.
R	You can’t raise objections about illegal extension done by the shop owners here. They rule the roost.
I	Is there a union of street vendors or hawkers which could safeguard your interests?
R	There is a union.
I	What is it known as?
R	(asking another person for information) What is the name of the union leaders?
Background person	The rats.
I	They are called ‘the rats’?
R	Yes, rats.
I	How am I supposed to find and interview ‘the rats’?
R	Yes.
I	Where can I find them?
R	You see the stalls over there?
I	Sundar Pansari?
R	They sit in the area below Sundar Pansari.
I	Do you meet them often, for meetings or anything similar?
R	We see them during meetings. Whenever there is conflict, they work towards resolving the issue.
I	What kind of problems are we talking about?
R	If a committee member or the police or someone with authority obstructs our business, we take the issue to the leaders. They resolve it. We don’t have to worry about dealing with the authorities.
I	Do you like this marketplace?
R	Yes, I like this place.
I	What do you like about this place?
R	The work is good.
I	In what way?
R	Business is good here. In the new areas we would sit the entire day waiting for a customer to show up.
I	This is a busy place?
R	There is a huge rush here all through the day.  There is no danger for women in this place. I feel safe amongst the crowd. Given a choice I would not like to move from this place. How else will a shop function? This is our life and this how we run a livelihood.
I	Any particular place in Shimla which is close to your heart?
R	I don’t travel much beyond work. I come here in the morning and go back home in the evening after wrapping up work.
I	How early do you come here in the morning?
R	As early as nine in the morning.
I	When do you go back home?
R	About eight thirty in the evening.
I	You sit here for twelve hours?
R	Yes.
I	Do you take the things with you back home every day?
R	No. We have rented a place here to keep our things, because it is late in the night when we shut shop.
I	How much do you pay for the rent?
R	Twelve hundred rupees.
I	On monthly-basis?
R	Yes.
I	Really?
R	There isn’t much choice.
I	Is there anything about the market that you like to see improved?
R	No. Nothing like that.
I	Anything that the committee needs to improve?
R	The committee has changed over the years. There is better maintenance and sanitation here now. They do all the cleaning work in the night after the market closes. The trucks clear up trash at around ten in the night and the entire place is cleaned up. It is so much better now.
I	What kind of changes have taken place?
R	They clear the garbage from the place and clean the entire area in the night. The sanitation workers attend to the marketplace once again in the daytime.
I	What else has changed?
R	Major improvement has been in sanitation.
I	Have you heard about the smart city project?
R	Yes, yes.
I	What have you heard so far?
R	I have no idea about that. It’s old news.
I	Was there any meeting or consultation you were involved in?
R	Such consultations do not reach us.
I	Who amongst you were consulted?
R	Those are part of the committee.
I	What should a smart city be like?
R	Whatever the committee decides should be good enough for us. There will be good sanitation and a garbage disposal system.
I	What do you think should be there?
R	That is for the committee to come up with. They will primarily take care of the sanitation issues.
I	What else? What does Shimla need? You have been living here for such a long time. There are so many issues to deal with...
R	They will bolster up the makeshift shanties. The shops will be streamlined.
I	How does that affect the place?
R	Then the town will become a better place.
I	What about the shops that will be demolished in the process?
R	Let them rebuild it. It will become a better space. People coming to visit will find it pleasant. Little by little things will change for the better. Lot of the structures that are here have been there since the British Raj. Changing everything bit by bit will need time.
I	If the shops are demolished and rebuilt, will it make a difference to your business?
R	No. it wouldn’t make much difference.
I	Have the buildings always been like this?
R	All of these have stayed intact over the years. People who live there have owned the properties over generations.
I	What else do you think should be smart about a city.
R	….
I	Do you use phone?
R	yes.
I	What kind?
R	Basic.
I	Why don’t you don’t use a smartphone?
R	I don’t understand them.
I	You don’t get them?
R	Each to their own. Basic phone is fine for me.
I	Do your sons and daughters-in-law use a smart phone?
R	They do it on their own expense.
I	What do your sons do?
R	One of my sons drives a cab and the other runs a stall. When he is free, he takes care of the children.
I	The daughters-in-law stay at home?
R	Yes. One of them works as a cleaning maid in houses in the locality. We have to find our sources of livelihood.
I	How old are your grandchildren?
R	One of them is in ninth standard and another on tenth.
I	Okay. It was lovely talking to you. If you can then please give a thought about what you would want to improve Shimla.
R	No. I don’t know anything about that.
I	Shimla is your home. You will have some thoughts on what should be improved here. Please keep thinking about it. We can have more of such conversation again some other day.


SI021
R	The channel records…
I	Oh, so you gave interviews.
R	Yes, I did.
I	On which channel?
R	Channel 9, Zee (?), local, DD.
I	Okay. Regarding what?
R	Just like you are asking me questions and then I answer. So the Smart city project, I have a very close friend… we are on the same team. It was very difficult to make this project. These dreams…
I	So what all is included?
R	So first and foremost, I told you, traffic control, then clearance of road and then if the buses start running, only then metro will follow. If the buses are not running properly, how will metros run?
I	Right.
R	The main thing is our administration is not very strict. Administration, when it has strict rules and discipline, then this project will work. You see, last year there was a shortage of water.
I	What about this year?
R	This year the project will be made anew… this happened because of the election, I will tell you. There is no guarantee. It was an election stand. See, I am not saying about my party. I am just saying as a public… Will you have a cold drink?
I	No, no… I just had my meal.
R	Okay. So, for a smart city project, they would have to sacrifice a lot.
I	As in what would they have to sacrifice?
R	First of all, they have to remove encroachment. All the private…
I	Encroachment from Lower Bazaar or…?
R	From everywhere, where the smart city will come up, they have to remove them by all means. It can’t be that smart city is also there and encroachment is also happening. For a smart city, they have to come up with smart projects. The administration has to be smart.
I	Right. So, if we talk about changes in the Lower Bazaar, what all have changed in the last 40 years?
R	A lot has changed.
I	Like what? Please recall and tell me.
R	Like the parking space came up, a second lift was made, now there are two lifts. The Tootikandi parking was built, the ISBT came up. A lot of changes took place. It’s a difficult thing to bring about change.
I	In this Bazaar, have there been changes in Gunj and Lower Bazaar as well?
R	No, no changes there.
I	So the shops remained the same?
R	As it is, yes.
I	Has the crowd decreased or increased?
R	That has increased, the population never decreases. It always keeps increasing.
I	So do you remember anything specific in Lower Bazaar, any memory? Something that existed before, somewhere you spent a lot of time?
R	Everything changed but the Bazaar remained as it is.
I	So is that a good thing or bad?
R	There should be some changes?
I	What all changes?
R	New showrooms come up…
I	Okay. What else can change in the Bazaar?
R	Cleanliness in the stairs will look better. They are not strict about cleanliness. They do a collection also which is a good system. There are more stairs coming up. Like we have rest points, there are no rest points for people who are shopping there, elderly people. That is one of the main requirements.
I	So you said that in a smart city, the administration and the schemes should be smart. By smart, what do you…?
R	If the leader is smart, rest will follow.
I	What do you understand by smart city? How can a city be called smart?
R	Smart means availability of water, roads, no electricity cuts… so that one can travel by car from Delhi, Chandigarh, Gujarat. If one gets stuck on the road, it’s very difficult to park it. They are over-charged. So you see with internet, one can do bookings otherwise everywhere there is cheating. If you go uphill towards Kufri, you go to a hotel, get a plate of chicken…
I	They will over-charge…
R	Yes, there is a lot of work to be done for traffic. Every day, the newspapers are reporting about it.
I	So another thing you said that encroachments need to be removed. How do you think it will impact the people?
R	So there has to be a system. If you have a plan to build three storeyed building, how will you build a six storeyed building? Can such an encroachment take place in Chandigarh or Bangalore? People are staying there as well.
I	So systematically…
R	Yes, definitely with a system.
I	Last thing I had to ask is, in every city, there are certain things that are important for its people. If those things don’t exist, the city will change for them…
R	So the first thing is the park, secondly bus point, there is the cinema hall, other places like bus stand, railway station, all these things…
I	So in order to capture all that, we came up with an app… whoever I am talking to…


SI023
I	What is your name?
R	*** ***.
I	How old are you?
R	I am fifty-nine years old. I was born in 1960.
I	Okay. You mentioned you have been running the shop here since 1976.
R	Yes.
I	How old is the shop? What is the history of the shop? How was it like before you took over? Was it run by the elders in your family or is it that the shop was started by you?
R	The shop opened in 1956.
I	It was run by your father at that time?
R	No. In the beginning we were in partnership with another person. 1976 onwards my father went separate ways and set up this shop.
I	Was the shop someplace else in 1956 or is this the original shop?
R	The shop was here originally.
I	You have been trading in food grains and other grocery items since the beginning?
R	From 1956 to 1989, we used to deal with the upper Himachal markets, not the local retail shop that is there now. Earlier it was a wholesale shop.
I	So, when it was a wholesale business, the shop was here in this place?
R	Yes.
I	So, till 1989 this was a wholesale market which catered to the upper Himachal markets.
R	It was a time when the road network was not so great. So we used to provide for them.
I	The road network was laid 1989 onwards.
R	Yes. Soon after, the Parwanoo market was established over there which had an adverse impact on our business in the market.
I	The wholesale business started falling thereafter. Are you originally from Shimla?
R	I was born in Shimla.
I	Where in Shimla?
R	Ram Bazaar. It’s nearby.
I	Yes. I have seen the place.
R	It is a two-minute walk from here.
I	Okay. What other changes came about after 1989? For example, how has Gunj Bazaar changed in the last twenty to thirty years?
R	As I have already mentioned, the roads were laid. Gradually even those areas in lower Himachal which had no water were provided with through lift irrigation. So, people stopped migrating to Shimla for labour. People used to come here from Bilaspur, Una, looking for work. Whatever they earned through irrigation was much higher than what they earned as a labourer. Being able to stay at home was another incentive.
I	What happened when the labour supply dwindled?
R	The market had shifted to Parwanoo, towards Chandigarh.
I	Did many have to shut shop in Gunj due to that? I mean between 1989 and now?
R	Yes. A lot of shops lost business. I can name them as well.
I	Please do. Tell me which shops lost business and were shut down completely.
R	Note it down. One of them was called Raichand and Company. Harish trader and Company, Bisheshyanath and Company.
I	These are the older companies that used to be here?
R	They have all gone out of business now.
I	What do they do now?
R	Raichand and Company as well as Harish trading and Company left the place. While Harish trading left for Pune, Raichand split from the company and now trades in onion and potatoes. The era of industrial supply of agricultural products is a thing of history now.
I	Did some people change their business over a period of time?
R	One of the traders who changed business was *** ***. They have now started dealing in crockery and plastic products. *** and *** also started trading in crockery, plastic goods, towels and toiletries and other home essentials.
I	Are those shops here?
R	Yes. They are on the backside from here.
I	Okay. I will look for them. So, why did you continue with the business? Did you ever want to change trade?
R	We were short on money. We had no second mode of income. We had to move our base to the lower parts of the State, so we decided to get into retail.
I	I apologise for the question.
R	That’s alright. It is a part of life. That’s the truth.
I	Has there been any noticeable change in infrastructure or roads in the last twenty to thirty years when the shops in Gunj or Lower Bazaar shut down or changed trade?
R	It is only when the leaders come to pay a visit that projects start coming up. Last time when Mr. Vir Bhadra came here, charcoal was laid for the roads. Nothing happened after that. Even the foundation stone for the parking lot, laid in the name of the Member of Parliament Mrs Vimla Kashyap, is still lying there. The work has not begun yet. Money was invested but the parking project has not seen the light of day.
I	What would happen if the parking lot is opened?
R	Then our business will start booming.
I	How so? You mean better connectivity would mean more footfall in the market?
R	Yes.
R	The children of the present generation are very fragile, soft like cotton. For instance, if they are asked to collect a ten-kilo item for the monthly grocery stock and take it home, they are reluctant to carry heavy things. It is very unlike the olden days. Children now get embarrassed about doing such chores and would rather wait for their parents to do the difficult tasks.  That problem will be solved. People can park their cars in the lot and carry their shopping cart to the car. That will take care of the customer's mobility. Hopefully that will increase the business at hand. It is not about me. This will boost business in Lower Bazaar and farmer’s market as well.
I	What about the parking lot near the lift? Has it helped in boosting business?
R	That will bring down our business a notch.
I	How?
R	Then there will be lesser people coming into this market.
I	You mean people will not bother to walk up to this end of the market?
R	Yes. Primarily because the street vendors on the road till here sell everything possible. Except for goodwill, honesty and integrity, they serve everything else. The goods they sell are duplicates. You will find shoes marked as Adidas being sold at 300 rupees when the company sells it at 6000 rupees. Since it costs so much less, we don’t mind buying from them once in a while. Isn’t that the case?
I	Yes. Of course. Even I buy things from vendors.
R	All of us do that.
I	Have the street vendors increased over the years?
R	I wouldn’t like to go into the details of how street vendors have increased over the years. All of us need a means of livelihood. That’s just it. Where else would they go? It’s not like there are plenty of employment opportunities.
I	Is there a union at Gunj Bazaar?
R	Yes. We have a retailer’s association.
I	What are the functions of the association?
R	There is no work as such. If someone from the authorities causes trouble, we arrange for the money together and give it to them, asking them not to drag us into trouble.
I	You mean this happens when an official causes problem?
R	Yes.
I	What kind of trouble do they cause?
R	For instance they will ask us to pay a thousand rupees each for the summer festival of the Red Cross. So, it becomes another job to collect money from the shops here for the programmes. The union sits together just to avoid any untoward experience with the authorities. We are one person per shop with smaller families. We wouldn’t want to get into conflict. Hence the union.
I	How many members does the retailer’s association comprise?
R	It is not so much a union of retailers than it is of the entire Gunj Bazaar. If we take into account only retailers, there are twenty-two of us.
I	It includes the Bazaar…
R	Yes. It includes more than the retail shops.
I	How many shops would it include taking into account the entire Gunj Bazaar?
R	At least fifty. We have also included cobblers as part of the association.
I	Are the office-bearers of the association elected by the members?
R	No.
I	Is there a President of the association?
R	We don’t have elections as such. We run parallel with the government. Whichever government comes to power, we pass on the candle to them. For example, now that the BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party) is in power we have passed on the torch to them. If the Congress party came to power, we would follow suit. We do our best to avoid confrontation.
I	So the office bearers are informally assigned.
R	Yes.
I	Has there been any issues with the municipality?
R	In fact, the officials were here recently. They have increased the rent fee. Actually, this marketplace was set up by the British during the colonial times. The municipality has no contribution in it. The market was called the daily use market and that was the reason why we were charged less than the other markets. This was one of the markets, the others being for farm produce, eggs, bakeries. Imagine how much space would one need for bakeries. That’s why the British came up with the daily use market. Forget a single new initiative, the municipality instead burdens us with rent fees based on square feet of the space being used, apart from the regular taxes that we pay.
I	Does that comply with the market rate?
R	As they wish. Nothing is fixed. Sometimes they take goods too.
I	Is it higher than the market rate?
R	No, no. We don’t need a market rate. For instance, two brothers have shops and one of them dies. The other one is unable to run two shops simultaneously. If an acquaintance wants to take up the shop, then we can make a deal between us regarding the rent fees. So, the market rate thing does not apply to us strictly. If they start charging us on the basis of square feet, selling a week’s ration also wouldn’t suffice to pay the rent. On top of that we also have to take care of the PDS (public distribution system) scheme. Then grains will cost as good as gold. Once the prices shoot up, who will cover it for us? The people working at the Secretariat don’t understand so much because their salaries are very high.
I	They don’t understand the problem on the ground?
R	They don’t understand it. How would they? Whether you would want to publish this fact is a matter of your judgment. But this is a lingering problem. I have been to Secretariat more than ten times to appeal against the increase in the rent fees in the books. There has been no response.
I	When did they increase the rent?
R	In the last six to eight months. The process started a month or two before that, but it was delayed in view of the elections. They could have stalled the increase in rent. They cannot count this area as a Bazaar.
I	Why not?
R	This is a daily use market. This town is not owned by a single person. The class in the forefront of governance today are those shrewd sycophants who used to be servants of the British government. They are not exactly known for their good character. Whoever bowed before them got allotments.
I	They were allocated land?
R	Yes.
I	Those who bowed down to them were granted with perks?
R	Whoever was ready to compromise their ethics at that time got perks. We came here in 1956.
I	Where did you come from?
R	We were from Punjab. We are Punjabis. We belong to Sarhan. It is 32 kilometres from Chandigarh. Recently it happened so that whoever bribed the government, got the land allotments.
I	Was there an auction?
R	There was no need for an auction. You can go to the door of the official and give them money.
I	That’s there. But how did you get this shop in 1956?
R	This shop belonged to my grandfather and it passed on to me eventually.
I	Okay
R	Why don’t have a roti?
I	Please carry on. I have had food before leaving home. You were saying the retailer’s association took the rent issue to the Secretariat.
R	Anyone affected by the increase in rent went, not just the association.
I	Was the issue exclusive to Gunj Bazaar or did it encompass the Lower Bazaar as well?
R	It included the farmer’s market too. All the shops owned by the corporation were included in the increase in the rent fees.
I	All the municipal corporation owned shops were included in there. Is the retailer’s association connected to the Byapar Mandal in any way?
R	The Byapar Mandal includes all the traders in Shimla. All the traders are enlisted there.
I	Are you a member there too?
R	By virtue of being a trader, one becomes a member. Everyone wants a protective umbrella. Isn’t it? Everyone should be a member. All of us need a roof above our head.
I	The election at Byapar Mandal is due.
R	Yes. They are.
I	All the traders will cast their votes?
R	You told you about this? Indrajeet?
I	No. I did meet him. But yesterday I met with Mr. *** *** …
R	His shop sells shoes.
I	Yes. He told me. Do you represent any party?
R	Yes. BJP.
I	For how long?
R	Always. My father used to be a part of Jan Sangh (the previous name of the BJP). He passed away in 2016. During the time of Jan Sangh there were no relief agents in the polling booths. People used to be fearful of the Jan Sangh. We were from eleven families in the town who were a part of the erstwhile BJP.
I	Eleven families?
R	From across the town.
I	Which community did they belong to?
R	It was not based on communities. We were eleven people.
I	Which community do you belong to?
R	Khatri.
I	What else would you suggest for the improvement of the Gunj market? Any particular point you think will bolster the business here?
R	If parking is taken care of, rest will fall into place. I can’t speak for other developments.
I	Why not?
R	Are you working for the smart city project?
I	I do not work for the project but that is something we would like to study. My next question was supposed to be about your thoughts on the smart city.
R	In my opinion, it is not going to materialise.
I	Why not?
R	Where will you begin in the first place? Do you work for them?
I	No, no. I am an objective observer.
R	I don’t think it will shape up.
I	What is the problem?
R	Too many.
I	Like?
R	Long ago a host of migrants came here from Punjab. They work as sanitation workers here. They settled in the land around Carter Road area.
I	Krishna Nagar?
R	That land is illegal. Those people have built concrete houses there now with their savings and pension money. The authorities did not pay attention when the development was unfolding. Now, if the government decides to dismantle the houses to claim the land, it is as good as stripping the people living there. They are yet to decide from which side they will initiate the work. They have no roadmap in place. If you demolish a thousand houses then you have to build a thousand to rehabilitate the people. If I restrict you from accessing rice, I should at least provide you with bread.
I	So that is a huge problem.
R	Indeed. The day the process starts, there will be the onset of an unrest.
I	People will not comply.
R	Yes.
I	There were plans of renovation of Gunj I heard.
R	They keep talking about renovation but I don’t see it actually happening. It’s all castles in the air.
I	Would the people here be inconvenienced if they had to move?
R	Of course they will be. There are several private shops here. Even if the corporation owned shops are shifted, we can’t be sure the private shops would agree to move out.
I	Then the corporation has no choice in this.
R	It will be a tough task trying to convince the privately owned shops to move out. If twenty shops are removed, it is good for the business of the twenty first shop which stayed behind. Why would they want to move?
I	Are you in favour of renovations here?
R	Nothing is going to be renovated or built here. People will devour the funds anyway. Officers who are not used to drawing expenses from their own salary are dependent on bribes. You must be aware how the bureaucracy functions. The local councillor is lethargic. He takes no initiative. Nobody is working on the plans.
I	Were there any meetings at the ward level regarding the smart city plan?
R	No. I am not aware of such a thing.
I	Not even the retailer’s association were consulted?
R	I don’t know.
I	What else have you heard about the smart city apart from Krishna Nagar?
R	I have no idea about such things. The lower part that has a downward slope there, is an area of illegal construction. At least 80 percent of them.
I	That what you guess?
R	It is not a guess. I know it is illegal. Even the areas near Ram Nagar are illegal.
I	Should they be removed?
R	I don’t think people will budge from their houses. The officials should have paid attention when the houses were being constructed. Till now they have not been able to remove the slum in Bombay.
I	Dharavi?
R	Yes. Have they been able to demolish it? How will they demolish houses and colonies here?
I	Any other plan you have heard in context of the smart city?
R	I don’t know what amenities they are talking about.
I	What do you think is the smart component of the idea of a smart city? What should such a city be like?
R	All of us should have a stake in the making of a smart city. It should not succumb to corruption and end up being a scam. Some work should be done for the public. Having said that, I don’t see anything good happening out of the project. It's common knowledge how these kinds of projects end up, irrespective of the city you are in.
I	Let us assume that the project turns out to be successful, then what according to you would change in a smart city?
R	Everything will change.
I	Like what?
R	Everything old will be rebuilt.
I	For instance?
R	They are supposed to construct something called the monorails.
I	You mean the ropeway?
R	Yes. Ropeway. Another thing is the moving stairs.
I	Escalators?
R	Yes. Escalators. They say there are plans to build escalators for movement below the hill to the top. I think these are just castles in the air. The escalators, lifts, water retention etc. are just big plans. These are mere talks of the white-collar people. They don’t understand the ground reality. I wouldn’t be so keen about the plans. You tell me how much money has been allocated for these works.
I	Indeed. These are projects that need heavy investment.
R	Yes. They need massive funds. They talk about twenty-four-hour water supply. Where would they bring water from? There is water shortage in the entire country as such. On top of that, England, which was the torch bearer of industrialisation has now begun talking about global warming. Which city do you live in?
I	I work in Shimla now. The study I am working on is also being done in Nasik and Jalandhar.
R	In cities like Jalandhar, the smart city could work.
I	Why? How different is it from Shimla?
R	There is more to do there. Have you been to Jalandhar?
I	No. I am going next month.
R	You will be going there. The alleys there are very small. People will prefer that it be a smart city.
I	Why smart city?
I	The cost of investment in infrastructure would be lesser than it would be here. If you spend one rupee on a project there, the same project would cost 500 rupees here. The scale of difference in terms of money is huge.
I	A building collapsed?
R	Shimla is built on raw, soft soil.
I	What about the Gunj market?
R	Well, not all the areas.
I	Is it called the sinking line?
R	It is called the sinking zone. Isn’t it natural? Whenever there is rainfall, the water moves downwards. We don’t have proper drainage. The water is bound to assemble in one area. Water problem is another huge problem. Last year we didn’t get water supply for ten days.
I	What about this year?
R	This year they lifted water from the River Sutlej.
I	Yes. It was discussed a lot in the newspapers last year as well.
R	Someone had put too much chlorine in water and that had an effect on preparation of food at home.
I	I have felt that too. The water has tasted funny since the last few days. Now I understand why.
R	So, we have bottled water to use for drinking and cooking. You can take it too.
I	Then I will buy a few bottles of water.
R	They put a lot of chlorine.
I	How did you get to know about it?
R	The smell was such that you couldn’t get rid of it even after it was boiled. The lentil soup turned sour. Even the basmati rice started emitting a foul smell.
I	Where do you procure the food grains for the shop? From local sources?
R	It comes from either Delhi or Chandigarh.
I	Do they come here with the supply or do you have to go and get it?
R	My son gets it from there. He peruses the quality and chooses which ones to procure from the market there.
I	One final question. There are places in every city which is important to the people of the place. For example, I have been living in Delhi since the last ten years and the metro rail is the most important thing for me in the city. It has an impact on my daily life. Similarly, what thing or asset in Shimla is very important to you? You can mention a thing or a place or certain group of people. Their absence would make an impact in your daily life.
R	Our lives are not as fast as yours would be. We don’t need a train or metro.
I	That was a mere example. What are the important things in Shimla that make the town a home for you? For example, a bazaar or a temple or a restaurant.
R	That which provides better service?
I	That which is important to your daily life.
R	My business is important to me. Since the day the bus stand was moved from here, you will not find a single soul after six thirty in the evening. The connectivity to the main bus stand stops after that. We have become an island unto ourselves. One final bus comes at nine thirty in the night. After that, till seven in the morning we have no shuttle service from here to the new bus stand, ISBT which lies at the other end of the town.
I	The removal of the bus stand from here has affected your lives.
R	It has had a deep impact on the people here.
I	With the regards to the question I asked, we have developed an app. It has four questions. We are trying to gather the response of participants in the study to these questions. The questions are similar to what I asked sometime ago. Let me show it to you. For example, show us a place, memory or person that is important to you. You can take a picture and then upload it. Next question would be about how it is important to you. You can submit your thoughts on it. Your response can be in a single word or at length. We would like to pin the responses on a map of Shimla. The idea is to provide a policy guideline incorporating the will of the people. For instance, a lot of people in the Lower Bazaar also mentioned the problem with the shifting of the bus stand from here. If there was a study to highlight the will of the people, maybe things would have been different.
R	There was an option to not shift it. The area is still lying vacant.
I	Our aim is to highlight the places important for people. If you upload your answers into the app whenever you are free, it would be great. I could install it for you.
R	You install the app, I will give it a thought and answer it.
I	Yes, yes. You can take your own time. You can open your Google Playstore. I will install the app for you. The app will not record your name or personal details. We have a uniform code that will be used. You can add more than one place to the list.
R	I don’t know much about smartphones.
I	I will guide you through it.
I	It was wonderful talking to you.
R	I think the Airtel network in Shimla is not that great.


SI032B
I	So you are staying here in Shimla from 20 years?
R	Yes
I	Where do you hail from?
R	Ambala (Punjab)
I	So you got married here?
R	Yes.
I	Has this house remained the same since you moved in?
R	No. Earlier it was made up of mud. When the roof fell, we put in a new structure. Otherwise, it was all made up of mud earlier, the walls and the flooring and all that.
I	Now it is of cement…
R	Yes...
I	How was this street before? Was it made up of mud or cement?
R	I don’t really remember.
I	Did you have electricity and water connections from the beginning?
R	Yes.
I	Have they improved over the years or has it stayed like that?
R	This is an issue with slum areas. You should ask this there. It is just below this area.
I	So this is a privately owned area then?
R	Yes. If you go down from this road you will find the slum area.
I	Where is the slum area? Can you show me? In the Smart City proposal, they are saying they will be developing entire area of Krishna Nagar. We wanted to know what people think of that.
R	If you take this road and go down you will come to Luv Kush chowk. They have made a gate there. You should ask people from there where is the slum area. It is very down, you have to walk a lot.
I	What does your husband do?
R	We have a shop in the Ganj.
I	I have done some interviews in the Ganj area.
R	Whom did you interview?
I	*** ji...
(A guest comes over and the conversation is disrupted)
I	What shop do you run?
R	We sell wheat flour.
I	Since when are you guys selling it?
R	From very long. From his father’s time it is been functioning.
I	What are your thoughts on the Smart City project? You must have heard some news.
R	Yeah we have heard that something is going on. But when will it be applicable?
I	What have you heard?
R	We heard that the old buildings will be demolished and new ones will be constructed.  And all will look the same.
I	Where will the owners go?
R	Don’t know. Maybe they will have to take up rented accommodation. We really don’t know where they will go. We are also owners of this building. We don’t know where they will go. I have not thought about this issue.
I	Do you think you will be in trouble if they ask you to shift elsewhere?
R	Of course. We have a routine here. We have children. They go to school. If they lift us and throw us elsewhere it will certainly be difficult for us. Also, this house is near our shop. Our kids can easily go and get anything they want from our shop. This is a centrally located place. We don’t face problems getting (food) rations.
I	Where do your kids go to school?
R	Dayanand near Command. It is approachable and within walking distance. Everyone will be in a difficult position if we have to shift. If we migrate anywhere else, it will take a lot of time to establish normal routine.
I	So what do you think is the solution?
R	Our houses we have made pakka (concrete). Earlier it was all different.
(Gets a phone call)
R	My friend says that if they (municipality) just does proper cleaning in our locality that is only enough (instead of this smart city thing). People have their own views on this (smart city).
I	We are interested in a variety of views. That is why we are speaking to different stakeholders to prepare a report and give to the government saying these are the different opinions. Then they can plan ahead thinking on that.
R	You will get a mixed review of this. If we migrate temporarily then it will be difficult. But overall, it is also a good plan as the old buildings will be renewed. So, there is also a plus point. But there will also be difficulties for these people.
I	What works should be taken up in the smart city?
R	We have a major water problem here.
I	Even this year…
R	Not this year because we people, 5 to 6 households here have got together and tapped water from a body.
I	What is this body?
R	Natural paani (water). It comes down from the mountains and at certain places you can see the flow. The municipal water supply gives us a lot of tension because it is unreliable. During Monsoon pipes can break, pumps can malfunction, there are a host of problems. Last year we had a major problem as we did not get water for 10 days. They supplied water to the hotels but residential areas did not have any supplies. Even the supply of Bisleri bottles on Mall Road was over. We were wondering where to get water to drink and cook? We faced a lot of problems. The newly constructed school here was tapping water from a body above. We started attaching rubber pipes from the school supply to ensure water to our homes. The water from the body was continuously dripping into the school. So, when they were tackling that problem, we told them to leave a pipe for us to tap in the water. The school decided to divide the water connection from body into two lines and gave us access to one line. Our tank (municipal) water we store for drinking and use the body water for washing clothes and other stuff.
I	So the body is nearby?
R	Yeah it is near the school, I can show you the pipe. I wash the clothes from the pipe. The houses below me also do the same thing.
I	So you guys came up with a solution yourselves!
R	Natural one. Everyone has done this way, not just me. The force of water from yet another nearby natural body is also good. It fills up the bucket very fast. People wash clothes and take bath.
I	The first one is water. What else do you think the government should do under Smart City?
R	There has to be initiative to ensure cleaner surroundings. This area is very dirty.
I	Yeah I saw, there is a lot of garbage stuck in the drains.
R	The municipal cleaners do come on their duty days or when we call them. Most of the time they come only when we call them.
I	Everyday?
R	Not every day. Only the garbage pick-up guy comes daily. They do sweep the main roads and stairs. But the pile of garbage in the corner of streets are becoming bigger day by day. That clearing is not even done weekly or monthly. When we feel like it is attracting mosquitoes then we call them and they do come. But it does take time to clean up area and open the sewers. After all this is a mountainous terrain. Today also they had come. I think they were cleaning the drainage below.
I	Who are the communities who reside in Krishna Nagar?
R	Down below the road they are all either SC or BC. But it is also mixed. There are people from good houses/families here (meant upper castes). 
I	Are these (homes) privately owned or they built it up themselves?
R	I don’t know.
I	Which community you are?
R	Aroras. We are all of mixed communities here. Only after coming here, I heard about all this (differentiation). Pishori, parachinari, (not clear) these all groups are there below. It is mixed but a lot of them are from SC community. They are the old groups sitting below. But I do know people from General category who are staying below.
I	So the land registry of this house is in your name?
R	It is in my father in Law’s name. This also just happened now, 8 years back. Earlier the owner was from Chandigarh, he used to visit every year. He used to take away 1100 rupees annually as rent. He wanted to sell the whole building as with a single buyer as he would get more money. But my father-in-law gave a good offer and he sold us this (room set). Many others are all under rent agreement here in the building. 
I	How do you like staying here in Krishna Nagar?
R	I like that it is a centrally located place. Otherwise, I do not like it much.
I	What do you not like about it?
R	First of all we have to climb many a stair to reach the road. This I don’t like at all. My boy who is in 6th standard has to go to school carrying a heavy backpack. He struggles with it as he is a bit weak. So I have to go to leave him as well as fetch him back. In other areas school vans come to pick up. Here ambulance also does not come. People from this category (SC) do not allow ambulance from other areas. They saw that our people will go in the ambulance we have set up. Even that only comes up to the Mandir/temple here. 
I	What do you mean by our area ambulance?
R	They have put up their own ambulance.
I	Valmiki Samaj (community)?
R	Yes. Even if you call other ambulances they refuse because these people had gotten into a big fight with some of them earlier. Even taxis do not come here. We have to go to Apsara to get an Ola or taxi. Them not coming here is a big difficulty for us. It is the interference of these people (Valmikis). Everyone fears them. This is seen as a goonda (rogue) area.
I	Someone else was also telling me not to come to these areas…
R	If you want to purchase TV or anything in instalments then you will not get it.
I	Why?
R	Because you are the resident of Krishna Nagar, that is why! This is a blacklisted area. Companies do not allow any sort of instalments of anything here. If we have to buy anything then we have to give our shop address which is in Ganj area. But maybe they deliver only in residential areas. Do you know of any such rules?
I	Don’t know.
R	I think it is the case. We once tried exploring getting TV through instalments, they told us to get it in touch with a resident in proper area with the Bajaj card and keep paying instalments through them.
I	Why is it like that?
R	I don’t really know, only after coming here I too got to hear about this. I did not understand it at first.
I	But why?
R	Even I do not know.
I	What are the other problems you face? What improvements would you like to see?
R	All the issues I mentioned above need to be resolved. At least vehicles should be allowed to ply till ones’ home. If there is a road paved till the new school, then vehicles should be allowed. At least for the elders it is very much required. How can you expect the elderly to climb the stairs? It is difficult to take them to hospitals.
I	Have you heard they are planning something to tackle this problem?
R	They had planned it while building the school. The road will come till here and vehicles will start to ply. Nothing has happened though.
R	(neighbour walking by) *** what are the changes you require in this area? (laughing) For Smart City? It seems she does not require anything!
I	What do you think will be smart in this Smart City plan?
R	24 hours of water and electricity supply and cleanliness everywhere.
I	Will there be also digital technology related stuff?
R	Like?
I	Wi-Fi, CCTV’s. Do you think these things are necessary or they should focus on water and electricity?
R	First they should fulfil the basic necessities. Make sure it reaches every home. Wi-Fi and all are really second option. CCTV too. Also, the people here are such that they will not let the CCTVs remain in place. Along with smart city people’s mind-set should also change that we should do these things.
	(a guest interrupts)
R	(to the guest) What do you think of the smart city?
R	(guest) Cleanliness and water are our main problems. If these are not there then what is the use of a smart city?
I	These basic goods should be provided anyways by government. Why do we require smart city to do that?
R	If safai (cleaning), water and electricity are taken care of then we do not require any smart city.
I	Did you guys ever approach your councillor with your problems?
R	For the water as I said earlier, we 3 to 4 households ourselves tapped the (water) body. The councillors only take our votes and after elections they do nothing. This is a fact. They will not do anything for you.
I	Who is the councillor now?
R	I think it is *** ***.
I	Do you vote?
R	Yes.
	(Talking with guest)
I	What do you like about the core area of Shimla?
R	Greenery, mountains, trees. The trees look very beautiful in monsoon, very green.
	(Research Assistant explaining the consent form sections and purpose of study in Hindi)
I	Since when are you using the smart phone?
R	From 10 years. Earlier I had a Samsung Java phone.
I	Does your husband also use the smart phone?
R	Yes.
I	What kind of apps do you use in your smart phone?
R	I mostly use WhatsApp and Facebook. The social apps.
I	How about news? Do you access it on phone or TV/radio?
R	On phone only. Nowadays phone is a one stop for everything. You can get the headlines on the phone.


SI039
One Interviewer: R.A (Research Assistant)
Three Respondents: Female (main respondent), Elderly female (mother), male (sibling)
Start.
I	What is your name?
R	*** ***
I	What is your age?
R	45
I	Caste?
R	Vamliki.
I	From how long are you staying here?
R	From childhood.
I	Where is your natal home?
R	Krishna Nagar only!
I	What do you do?
R	I work as senior accountant in Accountant general office.
I	From how long are you working there?
R	It has been 24 years.
I	How do you like Krishna Nagar?
R	It is good. Everything is so nearby. There is not much problem here.
I	What is nearby?
R	Bus stand and vegetable market. Offices and courts are nearby too. Smart city is a good project. But people will be put in inconvenience because of it.
I	In what ways?
R	When development occurs there is some price to pay. They might demolish the houses here and there.
I	What will be undertaken in Krishna Nagar under Smart City? Will everything be demolished?
R	Not everything. But in places where it is necessary, they will demolish. The problem is we do not know what places they require.
I	How old is this house?
R	This is 25 years old.
I	What was there earlier?
R	Empty land.
I	Has it been registered?
R	Yes.
I	Lot of people told us that they did not have land registry here…
R	That is because it is an encroachment.  When people built their houses earlier the naksha/plan system was not there. It came later. People built on their own plan.
I	Why are they so insistent on the naksha/plan?
R	They think the city will look beautiful if it is according to the plan. They all look the same. It is difficult to interfere once the houses are built.
I	What do you want?
R	I don’t know. But no one wants to leave their big house and go into a smaller one.
I	Yeah I have seen the new ones. They are small. What do you think should happen in Smart City?
R	(mother): I think what we have now is only good.  No human will ever voluntarily leave their house. They will be attached to their home. Just regularize our houses, that is enough. They are also taking 700 or 800 Rs house tax. They should register our houses.
I	Why is it not registered till now?
R	(mother): People did not take much interest. It is when this Smart City project started people started taking interest.
R	There has to be cleanliness. People abandon their old/unwanted pets here. That is our main problem. There is no other problem here.
I	Has the government done anything to tackle the cleanliness problem here?
R	There is cleaning. But there are a lot of stray dogs.
R	(mother): Our in-laws were also from here. There is not much problem here. No one will leave their houses which they built painstakingly.
I	Were there any meetings conducted here for the smart city project?
R	We don’t know. You better talk to the councillor here.
I	I want to know how much people know.
R	People know this much that there is a plan to remake houses here in a proper manner. But whether it will be implemented this the people do not know.
I	Is the focus only on construction or are there other projects here?
R	Our problem is with the lack of cleanliness.
I	Why are they calling these projects smart?
R	Shimla is a tourist city that is why they are making the Smart City here. So that it looks good, especially from the bottom (of the city). 
I	What according to you is smart?
R	There is nothing wrong in the planning; only thing is we are uncertain about the implementation. Planning is good. It (smart city) should be there.
R	(mother). The problem I have is that most of us have 2 kids and if we leave our big houses and then they give a 2-room set how will we be able to adjust to that? How will our families prosper?
I	What are the changes you guys have seen in Krishna Nagar?
R	As the population increases one needs more houses. You see down below in the plains, there were farm lands and now people are making their own houses. Everyone wants their own house.
I	How can one avoid the problems homes face due to landslides?
R	There is no solution. This is below. When it rains it does affect us. In some places there is destruction, in some others there is no destruction.
I	Apart from cleanliness, what else should the government focus on?
R	For us it is a suitable place. We are not facing issues.
I	So what do you like about this place?
R	We can walk anywhere from here. We don’t need any bus. Even if we don’t have money we can go anywhere. Mainly it is the issue of cleanliness. The sweepers are not doing their job properly.
I	Why was Krishna Nagar selected in Smart city?
R	It is not looking like Shimla. This is a tourist place, when they see here it looks like a slum. If you look the other side it looks like a posh area.
I	This place has so many facilities, why is it still called a slum?
R	Because part of it is a slum.
I	What areas of Krishna Nagar?
R	Down below. Also, because municipal sweepers stay in this settlement it is called as slum area.
I	Did you face any discrimination?
R	(son) Not here. When you go out only.
R	I go to office. I have never faced any issue as such. Maybe it (discriminatory attitude) is in their hearts but they don’t speak it out.
I	What do you think of Wi-Fi and apps for buses and other digital technologies to improve governance?
R	I can’t comment on the buses as I don’t use them.
I	What about digital technology in your office?
R	My office was computerized almost 20 years ago. Online work is recent. It has been only 2 years.
I	Do you use smartphone?
R	Yes.
I	Since when?
R	3 years.
I	What do use it for?
R	Transactions of money. And if I have time, WhatsApp and Facebook.
I	What assets in your locality if you did not have, would impact your daily life?
R	Hospital mainly. We are not bothered about the bus stand much.
R	(son) There is a problem of parking.
I	Where do you park your car?
R	In the paid parking complex.  It costs 2500 rupees per month.
(Research Assistant explaining respondent the map my asset app).


SI040
Two Interviewers: A.D (Ayona Datta) R.A (Research Assistant) 
Three Respondents: Male (main respondent), Wife, Younger female
Start 
I1	Are you fine with us recording the interview?
R1	Yes. 
I1	Can you tell us a bit about your history? How did you settle here?
R1	We are here since our childhood. My father retired here, he also died here. He (referring to another member in the room) is also in the M.C and will retire next year. Currently is it 4th generation living here. 
I1	Who had migrated here? Your grandfather or great grandfather?
R1	Grandfather 
I1	From where? 
R1	Jalandhar, Punjab. 
I1	What had he come here? What time did he come?
R1	It was during the British rule. My father was born in 1950. So, he must have come before that.
I2	Was he in government job or in private one?
R1	He was also in M.C. 
I2	What do you do? Run this shop?
R1	Yes. I was never in the M.C.
I1	Can you elaborate a bit more about how he came and settled?
R1	I don’t know it in much detail. 
I2	So when he came here, did he settle down first in Krishna Nagar?
R1	Yes, here only. 
I2	Where? 
R1	In this building only he was allocated a quarter. The guest who came here earlier; even his family is here from generations.  
I1	Did you grandpa ever tell you how the locality was initially when he came here?
R1	That time it was a bit in the virana (wilderness) situation. Now it has improved. There is a lot of progress. 
I2	What do you mean by virana?
R1	Jungle type. 
I1	Were you also born here?
R1	Yes.
I1	When you were growing up how was this area?
R1	It was backward then.
I1	What do you mean?
R1	The buildings you see now. They were not there back then. 
I1	How many were there that time?
R1	Not Many. The buildings were made up of wood. Now it all made up of cement. After the 1990’s there was a lot of progress here.  
I1	What happened in the 90’s?
R1	People started getting more jobs. Before that the incomes were very less. 
I1	What school did you attend?
R1	The one below. The school is still the same. Except there are more facilities now! 
I1	What kind of facilities?
R1	Like computers and stuff. It was not there during our time. 
I1	Can you tell us about other important timelines in Shimla’s history during your time during which you feel many changes occurred? Like the 1990’s? Like the time of Partition?
R1	I have not experienced that as I was born in 1968. I went to school in 1986. I know mostly about changes in Shimla since the 1990’s only. 
I2	Is this your own home?
R1	Yes. Now it is pakka (concrete) though.
I2	Is the house registered in your name? 
R1	We pay tax to the M.C
I2	But it is not registered?
R1	Yes here most of it is not registered. 
I2	When did the tax payment start?
R1	2011-2012 onwards. 
A.D	What are the jobs you have done so far? Was this your first one?
R1	No, I have been a plumber before. I left that after my mother expired. Since then, I am doing this. 
I1	Do you earn more being a plumber or running this shop?
R1	As a plumber I earned more. 
I1	Why did you leave then?
R1	It is a difficult job to do. You need assistants. They have their own mind. You have to go and call them first. I felt this is better than doing that.
I2	Where does the water in the red pipes in this settlement come from?
R1	It is a recent addition. It is a PVC pipe. 
I2	Is this installed by municipality or by the residents themselves?
R1	The big one is by M.C. The small one is by residents. Earlier everything was by residents. Now the M.C has come in with its pipe. 
I2	When was that?
R1	6 to 7 months ago.
I2	So there was no MC water connection before?
R1	The water was there but it was all illegal connections. Some connections are still unauthorized. Some have meter. 
I2	How did the MC connection come about? Did people demand it?
R1	This happened through our councillor (***). Now most of them will also be issued meters. 
I1	What kind of plumbing work did you do? Street related work or inside people’s houses?
R1	Mainly in people’s houses.
I2	In Krishna Nagar?
R1	Even in other localities. The private contractors used to recommend us for works outside the locality too. 
I2	So they installed the water line just 6 months ago?
R1	There was an old line. They have doubled the capacity by putting in a new one.
I2	Do you get the water regularly?
R1	Yes. Except in summer, when there are some problems. 
I1	Two years ago Shimla faced had faced a severe water crisis…
R1	It happened last year too. We had no water for 8 to 10 days. Their pump must have been jammed with something.
I1	What did you do then?
R1	We relied on the various bodies (natural water springs) 
I2	How does this happen? 
R1	During the rainy season, the water is trapped in the rocks and ground. It is filtered then through the roots of trees. It is drinkable. 
I1	Is there a bore well system?
R1	No. Only through the body. 
I1	What are the main problems of Shimla according to you?
R1	It was there earlier but now we do not have any problems as such. All things are nearby. Like the hospital. The one big problem is that if someone gets sick then the ambulance will not be able to come down here.  
I1	How do you transport the sick people then.
R1	We have to carry them. Ambulance only comes till the Gurudwara above. 
I1	No stretcher facility?
R1	No.  
I1	You have stay fit then!
R1	Yeah and later our kids have to be fit!
I1	What other problems do you face?
R1	Everything is fine more or less.
I2	What are the things you like in Krishna Nagar then?
R1	The administration is fine. If the street light is not working, we complain and they fix it up promptly. Gas cylinder delivery is also smooth. 
I1	How do you pay your services bills? Online or do you have to go to office?
R1	I pay electricity bill at the office.
I1	There is no online system?
R1	There is but my wife is working in electricity boards. So, she pays it manually.
 I2	What work do you do there?
R2	Peon.
I1	Since when?
R2	17 years. First, I was in contract now they have made me permanent. 
I1	Are you from Shimla?
R2	Patiala, Punjab.
I1	How long have you been married?
R2	21 years.
I1	How do you like Shimla? When you had first come here?
R2	That time I liked it. 
I2	Now you don’t? Why?
R2	The nature of the job is such. They have given me field work. Dak (postal/courier) related work near the lift. 
I2	What is Dak?
R2	Going from one office to another.
I1	What offices do you visit?
R2	In a week, one day I visit kumaros (not clear) (15.53) one day I visit Vikas Nagar. 
I2	Do you go by walking?
R2	If I don’t get a bus. Now I am used to Shimla
I1	As a woman how do you experience Shimla? Any issues related to safety?
R1	There is no problem. The police are there, if you call them they come to help immediately. 
I2	How do you like Krishna Nagar?
R1	Since we are here from childhood, So we like it. 
I2	Any problems you face?
R1	It is only ambulance. We have electricity and water.
I1	What have you heard about smart city?
R1	It was in 2017 when the people from MC had come. They explained that there will be smart city here. They will take up good works here. I don’t know what to say. If they maintain cleanliness only, can it become smart city or green city. [s.1] They have to first set their house in order before they take up any works. [s.2]
I1	How did they communicate with residents? Did they come to each house?
R1	It was a general meeting on Sunday. Everyone was at home on Sunday. 
I1	Did they talk about demolishing Krishna Nagar and making it new?
R1	No, they said it will remain the same. In some areas they will make some buildings and re-settle people from khatarnak (dangerous) areas.
I2	What dangerous areas?
R1	From the places below where the buildings have collapsed. 
I1	Did they show you guys any plan?
R1	No. Just like you guys are having a discussion now, they also had a discussion.
I1	Did you guys ask questions?
R1	Both sides were asking questions continuously.
I1	Did they give any office address to follow up?
R1	No. After that meeting no one has come here. 
I1	What is smart city mean for you?
R1	The existing things should improve. Otherwise, everything is fine. Except for the ambulance!
R2	Even the ambulance has come but lifting the sick is difficult.
I1	Did you face this problem personally?
R2	Yes. My mother recently expired. 
I1	What had happened?
R1	She had low sugar. Then she had typhoid. 
R2	My 18-year-old kid had to carry her to the ambulance. 
R1	A lot of people have been in a similar situation. They have to be carried to the ambulance. If the family has only a young daughter, then it will difficult to lift them up. 
I1	Did she die in the hospital?
R2	No in the house only. 
I1	You think when you grow old you might face a similar problem?
R2	Yes we worry about it. 
I1	Do you think your kids will stay with you? Or will they settle elsewhere?
R2	Can’t really say. 
I1	What does your kid do?
R1	He has just completed 10th standard. He says he does not want to study more. We told him to learn a trade. Let’s see what he will like. 
I1	Does he want to stay in Shimla itself?
R2	He likes to drive, that is his passion. 
I1	What is special in Shimla according to you?
R1	One this is a hill station. An important place here is Jakku temple. 
I2	How is it different from a big city?
R1	It is not different from a big city. It has a bus and train service. 
I1	Do you get everything here?
R1	Yes.
I1	here do you get all your stuff from?
R1	Bus stand. There is a sabji mandi and bazaar nearby where you can get everything.
I1	If anyone asks you why are you staying in Shimla and not Delhi and Mumbai, what would you say?
R1	We can tolerate cold but we cannot the hot weather. That is why. 
R3	Here there is fresh air. The weather is good. There are a lot of trees and hence very less pollution. 
I1	How can we safeguard this resource for the next generation?
R3	They should refrain from cutting trees. 
R1	Otherwise it will become like Delhi and Mumbai. 
I1	We heard that people from all over have come and settled in Krishna Nagar.
R1	Yes. Here there are Nepali, Garhwali, Bihari groups staying here. 
I2	Which is the dominant community?
R1	From earlier times it has been Punjabi’s. But there are newer groups from outside coming in.
I2	Where do the Biharis stay?
R1	Some have built their own homes. Some stay on rent.
I1	Are they spread out or concentrated?
R1	From Laal Paani to Valmiki Mandir this entire area is Krishna Nagar. But they have given different names. Where we are sitting is Gaddi Khana. Behind the school is the slaughter house area. 
I2	What do you think about the growing spread of Krishna Nagar? Have you faced any difficulties because of that?
R1	There is no such difficulty. People have made their homes in how much land they had occupied earlier. There are no fights as such among the residents. 
I1	How is the relationship with the neighbours?
R1	We have a good cordial relationship. If we are good then they will also be good to us. If we are prone to fighting then they too will be. 
A.D	Are they all Punjabis?
R1	Yes.
I1	What about the relationship with people from other communities?
R1	It is good. We meet everybody when we go to the bazaar. 
I1	We saw religious places of all communities as we walked below.  
R1	In the Sardar line, there are Sikhs. There is a Gurudwara. 
I2	Do they have a separate Pradhan?
R1	The Gurudwara secretary they choose themselves. Otherwise, the councillor is the main figure here. We attend functions from all communities. There are Christians also here. 
I1	Where do the Christians stay?
R1	Their houses are here only. There is no tension here. People of different communities are comfortable in their own settlements. 
I1	Do you use phone? Since when are you using it?
R1	Yes. It has been a while.
I1	Was there landline earlier?
R1	Yes.  Earlier we used to go to call from STDs now everyone has a phone! We had got government landline now that is also over. 
I1	When did the landline end?
R1	It has been a while. It ended in 2002.
I1	Did everyone in Krishna Nagar have a landline?
R1	Yes. They had installed the telephone poles also.
I2	Do you use a normal phone or a touch phone?
R1	Both.  
I2	How long have you been using the touch phone?
R1	5 years.
I1	Do you use apps on the phone? Facebook? WhatsApp?
R1	Those apps the kids use. 
I2	What do you use the internet for on phone?
R1	Rashi (horoscope), Weather.
I1	Where do you access your news?
R1	Mostly from cable TV.
I2	Where do you check the horoscopes?
R1	YouTube.
I1	Are you part of any WhatsApp group?
R1	I don’t know.  I don’t keep the phone much. I use it mostly when I go out of station or to the hospital. 
I2	You don’t use it at home?
R1	What for? She brings me tea and food. I don’t require phone for that! And people who want to meet me. They just come over here. 
I1	Have you ever used internet to look at information from municipal corporation website?
      (Guest arrives)
I2	How did you come to know about this google assistant?
R2	The kids were using it. I learnt it from there.  
I1	Do you belong to Sikh community?
R1	No. We are SCs. 
I1	Do you go to Gurdwara or Mandir?
R1	Mostly Sanatan Mandir. We do go for langar (meal) during functions at Gurudwara. 
I1	Valmiki mandir?
R1	Yes.
I1	Have you experienced caste discrimination here? In terms of provision of facilities?
R1	No. 
R2	I too go for office in Mandi near Rampur. No one discriminates. We have chai and food together.
I1	So there is no caste discrimination in Shimla? In rural areas there is a lot, right?
R1	The kids go to the bade ghar (upper caste households?) households. They also come here.  
I2	What do you mean by bade ghar?
R2	Pahari.
R1	Like the Lala’s (traders). 
      (Researchers inviting the respondents for community asset mapping workshop)
I2	What is your name?
R1	*** ***
I1	Where do the Muslims stay here?
R1	They are here only. They are mostly Kashmiri Muslims who work as coolies. 
I2	Do they stay all year?
R1	They stay for some time of the year. Then they go home. They also have to harvest their fields. Like walnuts and almonds.  


SI058
R1	It’s been 30-35 years.
I1	It’s been 35 years here?
I2	Here, on this chowk?
I1	How did you begin? I mean how you thought of sitting here?
R1	My Brother.
I1	Ok, your brother was here.
I2	You are from Himachal?
R1	Yes.
I2	Many refugees came. We heard they were given the shops.
I1	Like, they came at the time of partition. They were allotted the shops. This is what we have heard.
R1	Some people were given and some were not given. We didn’t get. He didn’t get. I didn’t get. Some people were given, 10-15 years back it was given.
I1	Okay, 10-15 years back they were given, but you didn’t get then.
R1	No, I didn’t get it. My number did not come in that.
I1	Okay. How do one get their number? What is the system? How do they give stall?
R1	(00:00:51-00:01:06 Unintelligible)
I2	There is a plan to develop a project here in the lower bazar, have you heard about it?
R1	What project?
I1	They are redeveloping. They are making a complex and they will give space in the complex. Have you heard anything about that?
R1	No
I1	They have some plans under the smart city. What do you know about the smart city?
R1	No
I1	Has someone talked to you about that?
R1	No
I1	Does this land belong to Municipality Corporation?
R1	Yes
I1	But you don’t have to pay any rent?
R1	Not now. Before they used to cut a receipt.
I1	What was the system of the receipt?
R1	One has to pay in the committee.
I1	Okay, okay, every month? And that has ended now?
R1	Yes, now, it has closed
I1	Why it has closed?
R1	They are telling that they will give stalls.
I1	Okay they will give stalls.
I2	Okay, here which is under construction.
R1	Yes, which is under construction. Near the lift.
I1	Near the lift. Yes, it is under construction. They will give in that?
R1	But they are not going to give. They will sell it …
I1	You don’t think they will give you?
R1	It is very difficult. Where they give? …They are saying but don’t know.
R2	They say it but who know when will they give it.
I2	Do the folks from corporation talk to you about it?
R1	No, they just say that they will settle with people who are sitting here since old times.
I2	How many people like you are here who have a stall here?
R1	In the whole Shimla.
I1	The whole of this lower bazar.
R1	In the lower bazaar there are very few people, I think there maybe 20-25 people; those who are old.
I1	Old ones… And new ones?
R2	They're those new guys, poor folks do not understand the things here…
I2	They are new ones.
R1	Whoever occupies a shop and sits there would take money. Why will they give him?
I1	Those who put a stall in front of the shop, they give money to the shop?
R1	Yes, my brother is sitting there…
I1	And those who sit independently?
R1	No, they don’t give.
I2	Okay, that is not a shop. They are on the road. They are saying they will give you shops...
R1	They are saying so, let's see if they give or not.
I2	You are only 20-25 people who are old here?
R2	yes, only 20-25. Though they have listed about 100 people but, in that way, they can enlist a lot of people, those who sat here yesterday can also be enlisted. They are not going to allot to so many people.
I1	What are your problems and what facilities you want...
R1	If the rain comes, we have to close our shops and when it goes, we reopen it, otherwise water will enter. Right?
I1	Yes, yes. You think it will be better for you to go in the stall?
R1	Yes, it will be alright.
I1	Business will run the same way?
R1	Business will be okay but then we can sit comfortably. There will be no tension.
I2	This location is good, is it because of that?
R1	Yes. But it is not about the work. When it rains, we have to close the shop and cover everything. At times, we have to stand for 2-3 hours, 3 hours sometimes, who knows when the rain would stop.
I2	So, rain is a problem?
R1	Rain, sunlight, or whatever. It is a different thing when there is a roof.
I1	So, now you have to pick up all the stuff during the rain?
R1	No, we cover it with polythene. They don’t allow us. We just have to cover it. 
I2	Do you have any Pradhan (Head) of the committee?
R1	No, No Pradhan
I1	You have something similar to any association, if you have to talk to the corporation about anything how do you do, do you get together?
R1	We meet Mayor, what else is there.
I1 & I2	So, you meet the mayor directly?
R1	We don’t meet anyone. We don’t meet anyone, what we have to do with this. For 25 years, haven’t met anyone. (00:04:58 – 00:05:01 unintelligible)
I1	Assume if the stall is constructed, and you want to ask for a stall, to whom you would go, who would you talk to?
R1	This we will talk to Mayor.
I1	Mayor is the one?
R2	Commissioner. He will do this. Whatever needs to be done, commissioner would do that. He is the biggest officer in the corporation. 
R1	We are 20-25 old people, right?
R2	There are about 32 folks, not just 20-25. Consider less than 32. 
R3	Many were given stalls 15-20 years back. From the market, we are only two people. 2 people are up. Two us. That makes four. Two ahead makes six. And 3 are from the machine business, and four more are there who sell chappals (slippers). apart from that, there is no one.
R 1&3	Not even 20 people are here, those who are old. (00:06:13-00:06:15 unintelligible)
I1	Old means, how many years old?
R 2&3: Since 1947.
I1	From ’47 okay, okay. (00:06:22 unintelligible voices) Okay, we will come back. We are here for a research project, and there must be a lot of new people here?
R2	Yes, Many. One person goes to the village, he brings four new people with him.
I1	From where all people come here?
R2	All from below. Mainly from UP and Bihar. Maximum come from there.
R2	The list they made last time in around ’82. I think it was formed in ’82..
I1	Who made it? Corporation made it? 
R2	In that, there were I think, around 22-24 people from the locals …
I2	Were they from lower bazar?
R2	Yes.
I1	Was there any proposal to give them the stalls?
R2	Government says a lot of things, whenever it is formed but it’s not that such things necessarily happen. Such are the things you know. They say we will give you space when they are here, but that time doesn’t come.
(00:07:18 – 00:07:23 Unintelligible mixed voices)
R2	We sit here in an appropriate way. We don’t make calls for selling. There is no sewerage below our shops which might create a problem for water to move. It is not in front of anyone else also. We put the stalls in limits also, small vehicle, the big vehicle they all pass smoothly from here. Those things are there you know. Now these new people, they sit anywhere, today here and then there. That creates all kinds of problems. That’s the thing.
I2	You also have a shop here?
R2	Yes, but today, I have not put it.
I2	Okay, okay.
R2	There were very few people in the market and some of them might have passed away too, the list was formed in ’82, after that it might have been formed but then in that manner everyone.... Some are second generations, his is second generation, I am here from the second generation, some are from third generation others are from second generation.
I2	When do you get free?
I1	Means if we have to talk to all the people together.
R2	They don’t sit together. You have to go wherever they sit. Some sit here, some are a little ahead of where they have put the Shoe stalls and, in the end, there are some stalls near the sweets shop. They were removed from there and then shifted behind. Now there are a couple of them who have started sitting up there. There is (00:08:53 Unintelligible) behind the Vegetable market, some people sit. You see those 3-4 people sitting, they used to sit up first. Those are the old ones otherwise rest all of them are all new. In one way they are also old but if you look from the other point of view, they are all new. We consider them all new. In 82-83, a list was formed, then there was a Tehbazari (fixed market system), it started in ’82 and ended in ’83; it was there for 18 months. 
I1	What was that Tehbazari?
R2	They used to take money in that.
I1	okay? Which was for the place? Charged by the corporation.
R2	For the place, they used to charge. Corporation used to charge for the place.
R2	Then someone filed a case in the high court, there was *** *** *** who filed a writ, he was in the university who filed a writ in the high court that the market is crowded and stuff like that. A lot of action was taken on that writ. Signboards of many shops were broken. Shops were broken a little bit from the front. A lot of action took place at that time. Because of that, the receipt thing got cancelled. After that, we have been sitting here for years without that and now also, we have still been sitting here. Some people sit here, ahead of the dispensary which is a little far away from here, some sit somewhere else. Apart from that, no old people, others have come later only.
R3	All these shopkeepers charge money to those who sit in front of them
R2	Someone takes 200, 400, 500. Everywhere they give money to the shopkeepers. Some even give 600 per day.
I1	For a day?
R3	Do don’t make 600. We don’t even earn 600. From where we will give.
I1	It's quite expensive.
R3	How will we give 600? Where will we get this kind of money?
Mixed voices	100, 200 whatever it is given, everyone gives it. Whoever is sitting wherever everyone gives it.
R2	We can’t give 600 per day to them. We don’t even earn 600. From where we will give.
R3	They allow to sit in front of the shop only if you pay them or some even use them for domestic work in return. Some ask them to clean their shops, bring water, use them for going to bank work or this and that.
I2	Do you have 5-10 minutes to talk or should we come at lunchtime?
R2	You come in the day time. We will talk here only, there is no such problem.
I1	We wanted to know the history of the place. Lower bazaar is very old. We have talked to the shopkeepers already. We want to talk to people who sit outside. We want to know the history. How the lower Bazar started. What changes have come to the lower bazar.
R2	What is about the history, Ji. Like other bazaars were made, this Bazar was made. Earlier there were no stalls. The small shops that you see there, they were not there before we were even born. We have only heard about it.
R2	Thing is such that when India and Pakistan divided in 1947. The refugees who came here, who were Indians, they were built for them. You can think of them as either temporary or permanent. Now they are permanent. It kept going on. They couldn’t shift them to a new place. It is said that these lines here used to be open. We have not seen them ourselves, except a few shops. Those who are below the buildings except those. All these old shops and stalls were made for the refugees except the new ones. Some have sold and moved, and some have given to others. Those who had no resources they sit outside the shops. For many years they are sitting outside. This is how it happened.
I1	What all changes have happened here? Also, from the law point of view? If the corporation has made some rules that also might have brought some changes, what all changes have come in your day-to-day activities?
R2	Population is increasing a lot. Some rush is there if we compare them to the past. That is natural. I don’t know much about the law. Those who make it would know more about it. I cannot tell you much about it.
I1	It didn’t have any impact on you ever?
R2	Sometimes when they get strict, we have move. Sometimes they make challans (fine). That happened a lot. It happens a lot and it can happen anytime. For example, if someone complains, then for 10-15 days, they become strict. A shopkeeper can keep his things inside the shop but where we can go. We are outside only. Whenever they want, they can fine us.
I1	How many times it happens?
R2	At least once in a year it happens for sure. 
I1	When it happens, do you have to go to the corporation?
R2	Yes, they take all our things and only return after we pay the fine. They usually return things after fine.
R3	They can charge a fine anywhere from 100 to 200, depends upon the wish of the officer.
R2	They can fine 200. Depends on the officer’s mood. The commissioner has the power of the judge and he collects the fine.
I1	He does it according to him. Do you fear what if they remove you permanently?
R2	If they remove permanently, where would we go? They say we will evaluate etc. 30-35 years ago; they said a two-story building would be constructed and all shops and stalls would be shifted in the building and those who sit outside would also be shifted there.
I1	It was 20 years ago?
R2	Yes, it was a plan of 30-35 years ago. That is also over its gone. Then 4-5 years ago something happened, there was plan to dismantle sabzi mandi (vegetable market), there is a stone on the vegetable market ground, you please go and see that. It is written on it that here a multi-story building would be constructed. It did not come about. So, this is what happens.
R3	It has built but only in talks and words.
R2	So, for 3-4 years it happened that the vegetable market shopkeepers were also were worried because that would have demolished their shops. Then nothing happened.
I1	Now next to the lift…
R2	Then next to the lift it is being built, even in that they have taken 25-30000 rupees from those who have Tehbazari (the receipt collection system) right now, saying they will be provided some place in that. Now who knows when will they give it.
R3	In that we won’t find our number.
R2	In that also, we don’t know what they will do with us.
I1	Is it a lottery system or how do they do it?
R3	Whoever has some Tehbazari in it…
R2	Tehbazari was abolished in lower bazar. In other places it is still there.
I1	Okay, so they will do it for them first.
R2	First, they took 25000-30000 rupees from them. Whether they will give us or not, we don’t know. If they will give us, in what form they will, we don’t know anything about that.
I1	Now they are making a plan under the Smart city also...
R2	Yes, Smart city is there…but when it will happen and what will happen under it, then only we will know. See, every coin has two sides. It is very clear. We don’t know when and what will happen. Whenever it will happen, then only we will know. What are the government policies, we will know when they happen?
I1	And they are going to break the shops, they will give compensation for that…
R3	So many rules are going to change, Madam Ji. 
Male 5: See, it is a rule passed by the central government. They say those who have private shops will get compensation and the shops which belong to the corporation, the corporation will deal with them not the government.
R3	You know how government works when it will happen then only, we shall know. I was telling you, they made a complex 35 years ago in Ganj, they made complex 5 years ago in the vegetable market…There is a saying “Jat mariya tab janiye jab poore 16 hoye” When it will happen then only, we will know. Now they are just talks.
I1	It will happen or not?
R3	We don’t have any hope. You are walking in the market. In the whole market, there is not a single government dustbin. Tell me how it can become Swachh Bharat or Swachh Shimla, how it can become a smart city. In the entire lower bazaar or ram bazaar, there is not even a single government dustbin. If dustbins are not there, then tell how it will become. People have a lot of awareness. They keep paper, wrapper, or other waste in their hand but for how long they will keep it in their hands. They cannot keep the waste in a bag and take it home. They have to throw it somewhere. It is his helplessness. But if there is no dustbin then how cleaning will help. It is the government's fault. Once, disaster department people came here. They said this building is like that, that building is like that, this will happen here, that will happen. Then I was like, you will be standing when the disaster comes. You will die in your own houses’ rubble. Whatever mock drills they do, they are fool drills, not mock drills. 
I1	It happens here also?
R3	Yes, they are the moorkh (fool) drill, not the mock drill.
I1	How do they do it? You will be buried in your own house.
R2	It would be like, there is a fire or something. And you will stand near the DC office. They call the army; the commissioner will be standing. They will have the fire brigade and everything already ready. They will show what happens if a fire happens. But when there is actual fire at that time you won’t be standing here. I think when they do it and you call and tell them that there is a fire somewhere, they would not reach there.  At the time they do not reach. That’s 100%. I believe the way these mock drills happen they should not happen in this way. They should go to some particular area. Gather 10, 20, 50 people and they should make them understand what should be done. In the Ahmedabad incident, 20 children died. Why did it happen? They did not have the basic knowledge. All foreign children survived. Why? No one died in that. They didn’t even get injured. They took the wet clothes and shut all the windows and doors. Nothing happened to even a single child. We don’t have any knowledge about that. We should have basic knowledge. What is the advantage of doing mock drills? No use. They are just wasting our money. It is our money. We give tax, in whatever form we give tax. Even if we don’t give direct tax, we are paying tax even if we buying something from the market. We are not paying direct tax because we are not on that level but we are paying tax in whatever form. But they misuse our money. This misuse shouldn’t happen. There are no dustbins wherever you see in the market. How can you make a smart city like that? A smart city doesn’t become like that. How will you make smart cities? Smart cities are not made like this. Talks don’t make a smart city. These are tall talks. I don’t know who will see the smart city, and when will that be made.
R3	It is very difficult. To break a room at home and rebuild it is also very difficult. To break all this and remaking is very difficult. 
R2	There are so many loopholes in our laws. Our law is so flexible. Nothing can happen in that. Now you see that they are implementing the traffic rules. It should be strict both ways. If a policeman is taking a bribe, his photo should be taken and there should be strictness and action on that too. If the challan is 1000, he will take 500 rupees and the other guy will escape by paying 500. It is good that they have kept good fine, it should be like that, it is a very good thing. We should have fear, we have no fear of the law in India. It is of use only when the money reaches the government otherwise there is no advantage of that. If it goes into someone’s pocket then there is no point in it. There are very good fines in that.
	(00:21:00-00:21:10 unintelligible Multiple people talking)
I1	How do you get all the news, from the newspaper?
R3	There was a meeting...
I1	Okay, so you went to the meeting?
I1	Would you tell me something about the meeting...
R3	The meeting was about the smart city. People from outside came, from Delhi, they came. They said, first of all, work should start in the lower bazaar. They said whoever has private house/shops, they will not have any problem, they will be taken care of. Those shops belong to the corporation; the corporation should take care of them. And this road will go back 3 meters.
I1	The road will extend 3 meters?
R3	They will put some barricade and then it will happen. You might have seen a complex of government nearby. You can see it in the center. They will break that and make a new complex. In that complex, all those people whose shops and houses will be demolished will be shifted in that. These are roller stairs, the escalators, there is one here in front of Nathu, one is one the other side, that is what they have said. We are saying what we have the knowledge of. We do not know the rest.
I1	Did they discuss things with you? Or they just told you that this is what is going to happen.
R3	See, not a discussion…everyone was there. There isn’t just one person, if there are 10, they will call all 10…
I1	How many people were there from the lower bazaar?
R3	Many people were there. A lot of people had come. (00:22:48-49 Unintelligible). Now who knows what will happen. Nonetheless, they said that the project has passed. Now the money will not go anywhere. The setting will happen where the government will adjust the people. They will not keep in the Bazar. They will not keep them anywhere in the market, if you say ram bazar, there is not enough space to even walk. If you go down you won’t find space to walk there. Why? Because this the path. See, where government should do something, they don’t do anything. The one who is right is troubled.
I1	You are also on the committee?
R2	No, we did not. No one is free. (Unintelligible) That is also a circuit. How did you come here; you came from Highway? Via Kalka or bypass? While coming from Chandigarh, you came from bypass?
I1	Bypass
R2	Bypass. There was so much noise about Kalka. Many shops were demolished in Kalka and they were destroyed and pulled back. I am telling you before they made the bypass. They were hundreds of years old buildings, to widen the road and make it four-lane, they proposed. But the pressure was built and then they changed the program and bypass was built. Meaning the plan changes with time. Nothing is like what is decided today will happen tomorrow. When it will happen then we will know. It is a long conversation.
I1	Did they ever take any advice from you? About what do you want?
R2	Nothing like that. No one asks.
I1	Did they ever tell you what is their plan?
R2	No, government never informs. No one tell you even if you ask. You go to a government office no one talks. There is no way.
I1	What is the source of your information, do you get something on WhatsApp sometimes, or you read something in the newspaper…?
R2	No, there is nothing like that. We only get to know if some news comes in the newspaper.
I1	So that’s the only source, no other source?
R2	No other source.
R3	And no one listens to the poor. If we say something, they will hit us with a stick and move us sideways. The high court asked them to give the old records about who are old and new here. They are giving the new records only. Not of who are old here.
R2	It should be open. When they broke the shops and signboards. They used to begin the demolition process at 6 AM before we reach here. Police will stand here and they won’t let us go further. They will demolish and leave by 10 AM. They would come the next day and do it again part wise the same thing. They removed the signboards saying this is how it should be or it should not be. They said this will happen that will happen. Years have passed, nothing has happened. Even after that, shopkeepers are keeping their things 5 feet outside the shops. Sometimes when the commissioner pays a visit, you will see the market appears so open after his visit.
I1	When the officer visits, everyone gets to know about it?
R2	Yes. Mobile Zindabad. (Long live). Everyone gets to know. Quickly they remove all of it. Some people’s things get lifted also. But they don’t bother who is sitting here since old times. They don’t bother us. They only bother when it is something the serious matter. 
R2	For how many days you are here?
I1	For one more week
R2	What’s the date today. It is 6. In two-three days, a vehicle will come. Most probably on Saturday. You will see how empty it gets and how shopkeepers do it back and forth. They come here once a month. The vehicle of fire department comes here. They come here to check if something untoward happens what is the situation here.
I1	They come for inspection?
R3	Yes. They want to check if they can pass from here or not.
I1	Vehicles are not allowed here, are they?
R2	Either it will be a garbage truck or ambulance or fire brigade vehicle. Or if there is some emergency for some reason. Then a vehicle can come otherwise no. In an emergency, if someone is in a serious health problem then a vehicle can come and pick up the patient. In that, there is no restriction. You look at the ram bazar the condition is so bad. When you will go up from down, you will see how bad the condition is. Below you see, shoemaker used to sit here before. Now other people sit. All the small shops you see outside Ram mandir. That time, they made around 30-40 stalls. They have been allotted that. Out of that, only 3-4 people are there, some have sold it others have changed their profession.
R3	Most of them were from outside. Locals were very few.
R2	Shoemakers were mostly from Rajasthan. They were here for many years. Now you can’t call anyone ‘Chamar or Mochi’ (caste). Modi says there is no caste. But what is the situation here. If you call them their caste by mistake. They will directly go to the court. What is their mechanism...They will go to court, file a case and will say if you pay us 1.5 lakhs then only we will take back the case. When they want to take something from the government, they become lower caste but if you call them by their caste, then they say why did you call that.
R3	They get free jobs from the government. They have all the facilities.
I1	You were saying about people, that are around 20-25, who are here since old times, are they from the same community?
R2	No. Different caste. 3-4 are Brahmins. Machine people are Punjabis. Different castes are there. Muslims are there.
I1	They are mixed.
R3	They are not from now; it is from very old times. and we have made caste. Blood is the same and we have made the caste.
R3	Thinking is wrong
R2	Yes
R2	Where have you come from? From Delhi?
I1	Yes
R2	What for?
I1	We have a research project. We are from an institute called the Institute of Economic Growth. It is in Delhi, under Delhi University. It is their project. My friend is from Bangalore and I am from Kolkata. And we are working in Delhi.
I2	The whole development of Shimla and especially the change that’s coming in lower Bazar...
R2	You should go to the library. You might get a lot there. There is one library near Church and one more library…on the upper floors.
R2	You will get many things there.
I2	You live here only?
R2	Yes. Here only. Come whenever you feel like.
I1	Thank you
R2	Welcome Ji.
I2	Your name?
R2	*** ***.
I2	Okay, thank you.
I1	Namaste


SI059
I1	Can we talk to you for 5 minutes?
R	Madam, do we start?
I2	Yes.
R	Please Sit.
I2	No problem. I am fine.
I1	Since, what time are you sitting in the lower Bazar?
R	I am here for 35 years.
I1	Can we record the interview?
R	Record?
I1	We are meeting people in the market and interviewing them about their experience and for how many years they are here.
R	Ok.
I1	We will record it only if you are comfortable, otherwise we won’t.
R	I am comfortable.
I2	Alright.
I1	What is your name?
R	***.
I1	For how many years are you here?
R	I am here for the last 35 years.
I2	How did you begin? How did you decide to sit here only?
R	I was a fresh dropout from school and had no job. My father used to do the same business. I started the same business and I sat here directly.
I1	What was your father’s business?
R	Lighter, torch repair. I added some other things like electronics etc. in my business. 
I1	What all changes you have seen in the last 30 years?
R	A lot has changed. The business has changed. In the last 5-6 months, people have shifted more to online business. The business has slowed down a lot after the Notbandi (Demonetisation). Not much money is flowing in the market as it used to. Before I used to have a daily sale of 4000-5000 rupees and now it is only 1000-2000 rupees.
I2	There is a significant reduction.
R	Yes, it has reduced a lot. It has become half of half. Customers are not spending as they used to spend before. The business doesn’t seem so open now. The business has gone down a lot.
I1	When you came here, were all these shops present?
R	Yes, all these shops were here. There were different shops at that time. Now, all the business has changed. People are buying more mobiles. Before we had different shops, garments shops or hotels, all of them have shut down now. You can see most of the shops are mobile shops. Before there were more shops for rations and clothes. Ration shops are closing. Clothes shops are closing. More mobile shops are opening.
I1	Who started these shops in the beginning? Were they refugees?
R	There were few refugees. They rented the shops. The rent is 1000-2000 rupees.
I1	Do the shops belong to the refugees?
R	Shops belong to the Corporation. They pay rent to the Corporation. I think it is 500-700 rupees and they rent it at 50000-60000 per month. We do not have any shops. We sit here like this only from the beginning. Before they used to give us a receipt, now that also stopped.
I1	How did it stop?
R	I do not know. The high court or supreme court gave the verdict that this is a very tight area and tah bazari should be cancelled here. Tah bazari is there in Ram bazar, Rewali road. You might have seen how many people sit there. They all are under the tah bazari. Here, they removed all tah bazari. It's been 15-18 years. Before, we used to pay to the committee. It was 20-25 rupees per month. They closed it now. Now, we install and remove. But now, at least they don’t disturb the people who are sitting here for many years. We cannot install shops bigger than this.
I2	In 1982, a list was made?
R	Not in 82. It was in 87. I came here in 1985. I have been here for 35 years. My name is there on the list. But they do not give us space.
I1	What did they tell you when the list was made?
R	That they would allot us the proper space. They did proper videography of all of us. They said that we will give you a proper identity card which you have to keep on your neck. That card is also not given. We sit here. Everyday police come and they tell us to remove our stalls. Police do not know. So, they issue a challan.
I2	How many times does it happen in a year?
R	At least once a year. It is alright. But they bother us a lot. Any new policeman would come and use his stick and order us to remove our things. He would misbehave. We cannot bear that. If you look at the shopkeepers, how much they have expanded, nobody tells them anything.
I2	Do they have some arrangements with shopkeepers?
R	No, what arrangement, but they don’t say much to shopkeepers. Police never pick up their things but they always pick up ours.
I2	Those who sit in front of shops, are they paying some rent to the shopkeepers?
R	You can see all these shops, how many things they have put up outside the shops. They don’t say a word to them. I have put up a small stretcher in front, they will break it or take it away. To shopkeepers, they will just say, put them inside and go away. They fine us a challan of 500 rupees, 300 rupees, 200 rupees. Whatever the judge likes, he issues us the challan. We have to pay for that.
I2	Where does this hearing take place?
R	In committee.
I2	In committee office?
R	Yes, In committee office. Commissioner office.
R	Like it goes in the High court. For example, the Commissioner will make a video, once the videography is done, we have to appear in the court.
I2	How many independent people like you are there in the lower Bazar area?
R	Proper and old? 37 people are there.
I2	37?
R	Yes, 37. But now they have made it 500 people.
I2	 They have included people who sit in front of shops also?
R	No. They have included those who have recently come here from Dehradun, Mussoorie. Yes, most people come from Dehradun and Saharanpur. This year one person comes from Saharanpur and next year he will bring two more people with him. These people also have a name in the list of 500 people. Those who are here for 25-30-35-50 years are only 37 people. With this, they have added the name of all the people, and now it is 500 people. To adjust 500 people is very difficult. So, they are not able to adjust us also. They don’t bother much either. They can give an identity card to those who are sitting here for 25 years or more but they are not issuing any card. They came here a few days back and told me it will take a month or two. It's been two years already after they did the videography and everything.
I1	What have you heard about the smart city?
R	If it becomes smart, it is very good, Sir. According to me, this will promote more tourism in Shimla. I also work in tourism as a guide. But I don’t deal much with Indians. I deal more with foreigners. I don’t work here as much as I work in Spiti, Kinnaur, and Ladakh.
I2	In which season do you go there?
R	My season is June, July, August, September, October. Trekking, camping, Jeep Safari all is up there. That is little business. This business is a flop. Tourism is here. In tourism also, more Indian tourists are coming and foreign tourists are coming in less number. It is decreasing a lot. From 2016 to 2019 if you wills see. In 2016, I used to have a full season for 5 months. I would take 10-15 groups. Now, I have taken only one group. So, the work is getting less now. It is good if it becomes a smart city. It will promote tourism. We will do more good work then.
I2	 They told to give stall to you?
R	That is in Dipti Market.
I2	In the smart city also, there is a proposal to redevelop the lower Bazar and all the vendors would be provided stalls in the complex. Do you know anything about that?
R	No.
I2	Did someone talk to you about that?
R	No, never.
I2	Or someone took your advice?
R	Nothing at all. They didn’t tell us anything. They told about the PG market
FeR	PG market which is near the lift?
R	Near the lift. There is no other.
I1	Did they tell you anything about the redevelopment of the lower bazaar?
R	No, we didn’t hear anything until now. They told us that they will allow us to sit here properly with an identity card. After that, nobody came here again.
I2	Do you think the idea of making a complex is good?
R	We think it is wrong.
I2	Business won’t work?
R	It is better for us here. At least we can earn bread and butter. The complex is good for big shopkeepers. For people like us, Bazaar is good. Those who have every day needs, they come to Bazar only. People who do big shopping go to the complex. You get everything in the Bazar. Those who have to do the main shopping in the complex will go to the complex. Rice, pulses, flour, oil, sugar. Everything is in Bazar. Those who don’t want to buy, also buy a little bit thinking it is of use.
—-
(Male 2 Voice talking to the customer)
(Phone ringing)
—
 (Starts again from 12:11)
R	Committee mentioned the smart city but they didn’t explain anything about it.
I2	Did they ever call you in a meeting?
R	No, they never called us. They might have called ‘Pradhan’, I cannot say anything about that.
I2	Pradhan is there?
R	We have a Pradhan of the bazaar. But he never mentioned that a Smart city is being made or about any proper place in it.
I1	What is the purpose of Pradhan?
R	He is for the members of Tah Bazari.
I1	What is his name?
R	We do not know his name
I1	Where does he sit?
R	If you go to *** *** from here. Jain stairs are there, he sits in front of that only. He is of small height.
I2	The person who has a beard and fewer hairs?
R	Yes
I2	We met him yesterday
I2	Yes, we met him yesterday.
R	Yes, the same person.
I2	How many are there under Pradhan?
R	500 something. But I think it is not 500 people. Most of them are new entries.
I1	New Entries?
R	Yes. Some are for 2 years, 3 years, or 5 years. We want some solution to happen for the old members here. The number of people from Saharanpur is increasing every year here. One person comes here and next year, he brings two new people with him. Two will bring four new people. We are local here and we are here only. If we are working here, our children would also work here. But only we are working here, our children don’t even come here.
I1	People from Municipal corporation never showed you any map?
R	Until today, they have never mentioned anything about what will happen or what they are doing or ask for our support. They took 35000 rupees in Dipti market.
I2	Did you also give money?
R	They didn’t ask from us. Because our name is not on the list.
I2	Ok, it is for those with stalls?
R	Those who have stalls, all of them paid 35000 rupees. I think they will vacate the place in October or November. That place will be vacated and they will be shifted somewhere else.
I2	Can they fit you there?
R	They are not doing.
I2	But you want them to fit you?
R	We asked for the same stalls as they have. They said there will be an auction. We cannot buy in an auction. The rent will be 50000-70000 rupees. We cannot pay this much money. They are getting 300-400 rupees monthly and to us, they are charging 50000 monthly. We cannot pay. They will auction the remaining shops. We do not want this much money.
I2	When was this plan made to move them from the Dipti market?
R	Now only, 4-5 years before. This is before the smart city project. First, they were saying to move us also. But then they said those who are in open areas, we will let them sit there only. For example, I sit here, a fire brigade vehicle can easily cross from here. After the vehicle crossed, they noticed all those places where the vehicle was getting stuck. They will remove vendors from those areas where the vehicle is getting stuck. This was their scheme. Later they made videos and said, “We will let everyone sit but we have to put fewer things.” After that, we have not received any card or anything. They come every day to take out the things of vendors who put more things. They have never taken mine though. I sit in an open area so they disturb me less. Those who sit in the narrow areas, get more trouble. Otherwise, they don’t disturb the big shopkeepers.
I2	How do you get to know about what is going on in the committee?
R	Nothing at all. Only Pradhan is there. He comes here and tells us tomorrow we have to go to the commissioner or this or that. The issue of smart city has never come out here. I do not think it is happening.
I2	Is there any WhatsApp group or something similar by which news is shared?
R	Yes. WhatsApp is there.
I1	Is there a group for the Bazaar people?
R	No. No such group.
I2	To share information with each other?
R	Yes, that I receive. I get to know it from other people. If something important is happening in the committee, that I get to know. But I have not received any information on the smart city that they are developing properly for the Bazaar. We were told that wherever we are, they will let us sit there and give you an identity card. So far, an identity card hasn’t come. If they say that an identity card is provided, now sit properly in neat and clean manner. We will do that. We anyways have a neat and clean area. You will see how other people sit outside. I have this tiny place. We want the city to become a smart city. We also want to do good work and have a small counter. But we cannot sit. There is a fear of committee. We cannot sit properly. You see even in a little rain; he is ready to put up the umbrella. We cannot put up like that and we don’t do such a thing. So, it is like that.
I2	According to you, what should be there in a Smart City? How do you want to see Shimla as a smart city?
R	I want to see Shimla as it was in older days.
I2	Okay, you mean like the Old Shimla. How?
R	I am a tourist guide.
I2	Yes
R	Sometimes, I go to Gangtok. You should see their bazaar. It is very old and preserved in olden styles. They have put tiles; proper lights are installed. They have renovated all the buildings. But it is still old, not new. More and more new construction is happening here, the tourism is decreasing a lot. I am speaking from a foreigner's view. Only two-three old buildings are left now. Viceregal Lodge, Townhall, Gaiety theatre, etc. They visit here and see it all in a day or two and go back. If there is a mall, good market, then foreigners will stay here for two or three days. That's all I can say.
I1	So, Old architectural style?
R	Yes, old style.
I1	Old market type?
R	Old market. There was a time when they used to put fatte (Wooden planks) in the market.
I1	Fatte means?
R	Proper Fatte used to be put here. Now, there are shutters everywhere. Fatte had its own unique looks. There is a picture of a heritage city in Kamal studio. Now Kamal studio may be closed but you will find them somewhere. You go and see the pictures of old Shimla. For example, at the scandal point, there was ICICI bank. There were other banks along with that. There were proper rickshaws there. Everything was there. We have seen it all in our time. Now everything has changed.
I1	You are talking about the old charm of Shimla. 
R	Old was very good.
I2	The feeling is gone.
R	That feeling is gone now. If people come to the smart city, what will they see? No one will come to see new buildings.
I1	People will see the high court?
R	I don’t think people will come to see the high court. I don’t see it, maybe you also don’t see it. You can go and see Viceregal lodge instead of that. I think you can easily spend a day here. You cannot spend more than one hour in the high court. It will be neat and clean, that is a separate point. The structure is old though.
I2	Apart from tourists, what should be there in Shimla for local people? What should be done for them?
R	For them, they think that they should have good shopping facilities, big malls. This is their thought. I think there should be a small shop and one should be able to buy all things properly, that is enough. It shouldn’t be very costly. If you go to a showroom, an item which is 100 rupees, you will get it for 500 rupees. They have to pay servants and employees. We have nothing like that. If we charge 10 rupees, that money comes directly to us only. We don’t have to pay anyone. We are the servants and we are the owners. Now the thought process of the shopkeepers is different.
I1	Thank you.
I2	Thank you for giving us your time.


SI060
I1	(00:00:00-00:00:03 unintelligible) what development is taking place and what do you think about it?
R1	Ask a shopkeeper about it. I am new to this palace.
I1	Okay, so you are new to the place.
I2	Okay, so you are new here. Ok, how long you have been sitting here.
I1	We have already talked to the shopkeepers.
I2	Now we are talking to shopkeepers who have stalls outside.
R1	(00:00:23-00:00:31 Unintelligible)
I1	Actually, we have come from a research organization. We are studying the lower bazar. How the lower bazar is changing and who all have come here…
I2	I mean, what kind of businesses are running her and the kind of problems there are and on the things of that sort.
R1	To sit here is very problematic. They don’t let you sit here, sometimes committee comes at other times police. Such are the issues. What can a poor man do? (00:01:01-00:01:02 Unintelligible) he has to run from here. When police come, he run, when committee comes, he runs. These issues are there. It’s difficult to earn your bread during the rains. 
I2	Since how many years things are going like this?
R1	It’s been 40 to 50 years. It is only like this. Poor people are suffering.
I1	You are here for 40 years and doing vegetable business?
R1	Yes.
I1	How many of you are like this?
R1	A lot…
I1	In lower bazar?
I2	You can include Ram bazar as well.
R1	Around 900 persons. (Mixed voices) Sanjauli, Boileauganj, Gadhi, lower bazar and bus stand. About 850 or 900.
I2	And all of them are since very long time?
R1	Yes.
I2	Do you have any organization or Pradhan (head) or something with whom we can talk.
R1	All the Pradhan’s are useless.
R2	The start issuing challan, the committee vehicle comes…
I2	How many times it happens like this? Once or twice in a year or more than this? 
R2	Committees?
I2	Yes.
R2	Committee comes every day. Every third or fourth day. Sometimes when they feel like, it comes twice in a day.
I2	So, do you pay challan every time?
R2	We run…
I2	Okay. So, do you inform each other, that it’s going to come today?
R2	If they are issuing a challan to someone, it would take 2 to 3 minutes. Others see that they are issuing challan, then they start running. Looking at them others also run away. If someone’s got stuck then he has got stuck.
I2	Out study is associated with Delhi university. Definitely it is there in Delhi and it’s everywhere. 
(00:03:17-00:03:30 Unintelligible voices)
R1	Police shows its own power, public shows its own.
R2	Public who walk from here, if they have even a little issue or something with the shopkeeper, they call the committee saying there is a problem here.
I2	They call the committee?
R2	When public calls the committee, the committee come here.
I1	Did you hear about smart city redevelopment plan, that the Bazar will be redeveloped and construct a complex?
R2	Multiple plans have been made but not a single one got implemented properly.
I2	Did anyone say to you that you will be given a stall in Deepti market or in any other complex and settle you down there?
R2	We have heard a lot about these kinds of things but there is no news so far.
Female and I1	Okay, okay.
R2	Photostats were taken…
I1	Photographs were clicked?
R2	Yes, photostats were taken, it was said that shops are being built in Chandigarh, the card will come. It will be made for 850-900 people and then…
I2	Did you get your name included in that?
R2	Yes. It has come in the newspaper that the card will be given to 447 people. They only will sit here and the rest will be kicked off from here. This kind of talks are going on.
I1	This kind of talks going on?
R2	This kind of talks going on.
I1	Did you hear about the construction of Market complex plan in lower bazar?
R2	No, I did not hear anything about this.
I1	Okay, you did not hear about that.
I2	As per your opinion, what will be good for you here?
I1	Should you be given shop in complex or at the same place?
R2	See the reality is this, to get a shop in the complex would mean an obligation for people. Which means you have to sit there in the shop and work will be running slowly. Otherwise, we sit here, there are certain fixed customers who know that we sit here and accordingly they come. It is fine here; it will be fine there also. But We should get a place to sit. In 15, 20 days or a month people will come to know gradually…
I2	Then they will start coming
I1	They will start coming. Here people already know you.
I2	People see you while walking past.
R2	But the kind of business happens here it will not be the same there. (00:06:06-00:06:21 Unintelligible voices)
I2	Did you also apply for card and the photography?
R2	Photography took place.
I2	But you did not get the card yet? Did it happen 4-5 years back? When did they take the photo?
R2	It has been 3 years.
(00:06:35-00:06:51 Unintelligible voices)
I2	You have vegetables business. As per your opinion, what will be good for you? You should get a shop in complex or be settled down outside?
R1	They can give a place in complex but we should have a place where we can earn the bread. We can have a sale. Government should not make a complex where poor die and can’t even start his sale.
I1	We can even start our sale.
R1	We already raised a question earlier that government should construct a complex in such a way where we have a lot of people. Customers can see the market. If you make it in some corner, he will die hungry there, will not be able to earn his living, he will starve there, he will leave that place and run away from there. At the same time, the raw material will rot there he will throw it away and run home. So, the complex should be given in a place where there is public gathering. Where one can earn his living.
I2	Do you have Pradhan Ji’s Number? If there is any other Pradhan?
I2	He was telling that there were so many Pradhans in the market.
(voices of a lady and the seller)
R2	The number was there in the documents, it was there for many years, and then the documents changed and (00:08:15-00:08:18 unintelligible), sometimes he comes here, say yes, yes I will do, I keep you guys in mind, but you don’t think about me, plus…
I2	Pradhan ji also have shop here or is he from outside?
R2	Yes, one of his sons has a shop.
I1	Has vegetable shop?
R2	If you go there, you will see a stall of chappals (slippers), there are big (00:08:40 unintelligible) on the road. When you go there, Tandal will be on this side, you go towards the other side, before sabji mandi (vegetable market). You ask there itself…Pradhan… What’s his name? What is name of the thin guy?
R1	*** ***.
R2	Ask where is Mr. *** *** and his son will give his number. But he talks very clearly.
I2	Okay
R3	(00:09:09-00:09:13 Unintelligible) We have so many who earn during the day and eat at night. We face so many problems and (00:09:18-00:09:28 unintelligible). We should be given a place where we can at least earn the bread.
I1	Did you hear anything about the smart city project, that they will demolish the market and construct something new?
R2	No, No.
I1	About smart city?
R3	No, people say about it I have not heard anything about it. People say that it will be built in Shimla.
I1	What will be constructed in lower bazar, do you know?
R1	Where will they construct it? Where they will move this…
I1	This is the temple.
R1	No, where these buildings will be moved? There is no place to move back.
R3	They say that they will make something but where will they make it? There is a mountain and at the back side there is a school. Where will they make it?
I1	Okay Ji. Thank you.
R3	You want to meet Pradhan?
I2	Yes. *** ***.
R3	*** ***. He is sitting over there. He is a Pradhan of this place.
I1	Ok, near chappal Shop?
R3	Yes. One is *** and other is *** ***. You will get all the details there.



SI061
I1	Is it okay if we record? So that we remember it later.
I2 	There is no need.
I3 	So, do we talk to him?
I2 	Yes, you talk to him, you talk to him. 
I3 	We were doing the study on how Lower Bazar is changing. So, can we talk to you for 5 minutes?
R1 	Ask me, what do you want to ask.
I3 	First, tell me what is your name and since when…
R1 	My name is *** *** and I am here for 50 years…
I3 	One second… we are doing an interview…
I1	Can we record it?
R1 	Where have you come from?
I1	From Delhi. There is an Institute of Economic Study…
I3 	This is for the purpose of study.
I1	We will not put it anywhere.
R1 	Okay.
I3 	So please tell us your name?
R1 	*** ***.
I3 	So, since when are you sitting here?
R1 	It's been almost 50 years.
I1	You sit here every day?
R1 	Yes, early I used to but now I come only sometime because now I can't work.
I1	Okay, so how did you choose this place as to this place will be fine?
R1 	Earlier my father used to sit here.
I1	Okay, okay
R1 	My father used to do the same thing.
I1	Okay.
R1 	He also used to sit here since the times of English government.
I3 	Okay, did he used to do the same thing?
R1 	Yes, the same thing.
I3 	Of sharpening scissors' blades?
R1 	Yes, the same thing. Mending locks etc. and… My father used to do the same thing, he used to mend the locks etc., and of sharpening scissors etc. So, I am working here since 1960.
I3 	Okay, was this building there at that time, this hospital?
R1 	Yes, it was there. This is very old. Next to it there is the general store, here it used to be fire station. For putting out the fire. They didn’t have vehicles. They used to have something sort of rickshaws, so they used to go in that. Now here it is the general store. It's the hosiery shop.
I3 	So, at that time, how many shops were there, when you came here in 1962?
R1 	There was bazaar like this.
I3 	Okay
R1 	The way it is now. There was the same bazar since I am sitting here. It's been about 50 years that I am here, and for 50 years I am seeing that that this bazar has been congested like this and it was like the way it is. But thing was definitely there that the things were not put outside the way it is now. 
I3 	Okay
R1 	It used to be inside, very rarely it used to come out. And the rest of the people like us used to sustain by sitting on the roads. Because there is space here and (00:03:12 unintelligible) there was no one's objection here at this place. So, this is the dispensary, this is the Unani dispensary, so here the doctor, Hakim sahib used to be here. A lot of them have changed here, many are coming and going, but we are sitting here at the same place. 
I3 	Okay
R1 	Yes, we do the same thing.
I1	Was there ever Teh bazari system here?
R1 	Yes, Teh Bazari was there earlier.
I1	Was yours also there?
R1 	Yes, mine is also there in Teh bazari. But they have not given us anything yet.
I1	Okay, but you have filled it for Teh Bazari?
R1 	Yes, I have filled for it. My name is there in it, my son's name is there in it.
I1	Okay.
R1 	Now, there is one place and there are 2-3 guys, they sit alternately. For 2 days someone sit, then someone else sits for other 2 days, this way everyone sits here. Because there is space constraint. Government does not give a place, so where do we go? At that time, I was young, I left school at 6th standard, now you see I have become old. What else... now I can't work.
I3 	So, how did the Lower bazar change, what changes you saw?
R1 	Look, nothing has changed in the Lower Bazaar. I don’t see anything changing. The old ones who were there; some of them have died, some of their children are working, doing their businesses, some have sold some shops. Some are still at the same places. So, otherwise the market is as it is. Rest, there used to be one or two sweets shops that have closed. People have changed their profession. Earlier...there used to be very less crowd. In the year 1976 when I came here there was not much crowd.  
I3 	Have you heard anything about the redevelopment plan of Lower bazaar; that they are going to develop the bazar and then will make a complex?
R1 	Look, this bazaar is such a long bazaar, it's been since the time of the British, so there is no way it can be broadened. Right? And if it is broadened then a lot of people will be destroyed here. Isn't it? Because, there is not just one shopkeeper, there are in hundreds. So, if you disrupt it...it's since the times of the English, my father used to tell that...So, it's a good bazar. Nonetheless, the vehicles pass through this place, the fire brigade as well as the ambulance. So, it's nothing like that.
I3 	You heard nothing about it that a complex will be built and they will give space to everyone in that?
R1 	Look, neither I have a number in that nor have been informed that they will give there or not. I think they have to get the Tibetans settled there. The Tibetans that had come, the refugees, perhaps they will settle them there.
I3 	Okay
R1 	I don’t know much about it.
I1	Did the committee ever say that they will give you a stall somewhere?
R1 	They say it, but nothing has happened yet. No one has got it yet.
I3 	Street vendor card…
R1 	Card…they are saying the card has to be made but I don’t have any (00:07:10 unintelligible)
I1	So, your photo was never taken?
R1 	No, but I have got my name entered. Because I come only sometimes, because I can’t work, I came 2 to 3 days in a week, rest of the days someone else sits here because, I told you earlier that here 2 days my son sits, 2 days my brother sits here, 1 or 2 days I sit here. This is how it is.
I3 	So, they do the same work or something else?
R1 	This work only.
I1	How would you find it if the complex is made and a place is given to you or you want this same thing?
R1 	Look, this work won’t work in the complex because the whole world, everyone in Shimla knows that the guys who sharp scissors sit at that particular place. So, they come here only. So, they won't go there or will have to change the business. In the complex only those will go wish to go there, while in the bazaar everyone goes from here, every kind of person passes by this place, sees this. So, till date everyone has said this but nothing has happened. My life will be over, but I think this will continue like this.
I3 	What have you heard about smart city?
R1 	I don’t know much about it.
I3 	You read in the newspaper or something…
R1 	I don’t read newspapers, nor I am that educated. I don’t know anything about smart city.
I3 	If there is any problem in the market who do you meet? Is there some Pradhan or…
R1 	What do you mean?
I1	Like if you have to talk to committee or get a challan cancelled…
R1 	No, they are not issuing challan to me now, they are allowing us to sit here. Right not. For a long time neither they are issuing challan to me nor are they troubling me. Okay. We are old timers here. Nor our work is dirty. And, the market is broad here so no one has a problem here. Right, and everyone needs us. It's not anywhere else here, earlier there used to be 4-5 people who had machines, now we are only 2-3 people. There is no one else here. If they give (space) into the complexes, the customers would not come there. Right? Because he would keep looking for us here asking where have they gone? So, some will get the work done. The one who would need it more would get it done otherwise he would not. This will happen.
I3 	So how many old timers are here like you? I mean those who have stalls on the roads?
R1 	There are a lot of people here. There are a lot of them in this market.
I3 	In the lower bazar?
I1	How many could they be 20…50?
R1 	Yes, earlier in our old times there were very few, now the numbers have gone quite high. Because people are coming from outside and sitting here. They are coming from a lot of places so, now they have become permanent here. Right. We are old residents of this place. As I said, it's been 50 years that I am sitting here. My house is in Sanjauli. There I have built a small house. We are surviving in that. That's all.
I1	How should be a Smart city according to you? If you have to give a suggestion to smart city?
I3 	What should be built in smart city, what do you think according to the city?
R1 	If they say lower bazar can be made a city, can it be made, what do you think? Because the market is narrow here, the market is old, now if you make it anew then I think it will take over 20 years.
I3 	What will it take?
R1 	Over 20 years to build it.
I3 	Okay, it will take time?
R1 	If you uproot all the shops and build it, how many years would it take? At least 15-20 years. Because no scheme is implemented right away. It takes time for that. And then where will these shopkeepers go, where will they take so much of their stuff? If you go by the smart city, then who knows what is the plan they have for it. What should be the breadth of the road, how should be the market, now this market is old...if you do this on Mall Road it can be made. Yes, that can be a smart city. Mall road, Ridge, Clarke if you go ahead of that towards Vidhan Sabha, this can happen there. But here, you are already seeing how it is here. Yes, they can look into the cleanliness aspect. Cleaning can be done, like under the shops there are drainage, it has become full, but the government is doing nothing into it. These drainages have become big, the drainages that are coming from up from Mall Road are coming here in the lower bazar so they have gone like this. 
I3 	Something can be done about it.
R1 	Everything can happen upside, you can make the way you want it. But this is an old market, you see what can happen here? Because, this… I have become old, now I can't be young, or can I? I won’t. 
I3 	Can't be.
R1 	Right. Now I have white beard, I can dye it but I can’t become young. Right. So, this market is very long. Have you seen it?
I3 	Yes, it's very lengthy market.
R1 	It's a very long market. Who all are you going to shift, how will you make it? What is called a smart city you tell me? Beautiful city, beautiful market. Now, how will you make this beautiful you tell me? It will become beautiful if it becomes very wide. Right. The shops, the market becomes of the same size. Only then the beauty will come in it, right? Otherwise, how will it become beautiful?
I3 	But the market that it is now, you find it good?
R1 	See, for the 50 years now the condition has been the same. Those who were older to us, some of them have died, some are still alive…so, it has been like this. It's been running like this. What will you do?
I3 	Thank you very much.
R1 	Alright.
I1	Namaste!


SI062
I1	Our's is also there. So, we are writing about the history of the lower bazar of Shimla. About how the bazar is changing. So, can we have a conversation with you for 2-3 minutes?
I2	Can I record it?
R1	Will it come on TV?
I1	No, it will not come on tv.
I2	This is for our own research purpose.
I1	This is for our own research purpose. So, first, can you please tell us your name?
R1	My name is *** *** ***.
I1	So, you…
R1	I am the president of the lower bazaar here, of Teh bazari union.
I1	Which is Teh Bazari union?
R1	You see all of them sitting over there, I am their president. There are vendors in our union; 1280 people work here.
I1	1280?
R1	1280
I1	Only in lower bazar?
R1	Not just in lower bazar but in all of Shimla.
I1	All Shimla?
R1	All Shimla.
I2	Which means including Sanjoli, Dhali etc?
R1	The whole of Shimla, district Shimla.
I2	District Shimla, okay, okay.
R1	(00:00:53-54Unintelligible) the union is of the district not just the city.
I2	Okay, right.
I1	You work in the lower bazar?
R1	Yes.
I2	Since when?
I1	Approximately how long have you been working here?
R1	About 25 years.
I2	About 25 years. And you always sit in front of this building?
R1	Yes.
I2	Okay. So, could you please tell me from the beginning as to how you decided to come and sit here and start this business?
R1	Thing is that wherever I get a place I sit there, in the morning I sit near the post office…
I2	Okay
R1	…Until 1:00. At 1 o'clock this shop is closed.
I2	Okay
R1	After that I work here for an hour and a half at this place …
I2	Okay
I1	So, how is the market changing, the lower bazar, in 20-30 years?
R1	Initially, there used to be very few shops at rare times. Now there are so many shops that you wouldn’t find an empty space in the market. Earlier there used to be shops on one side and other side used to be empty. Now there are shops everywhere. In 20-25 years, this has become the best city. The way Chandigarh is a beautiful city in the same way this city is also becoming beautiful. This has come under smart city. The work for it is in progress.
I1	We got to know that under smart city, there is going to be some redevelopment in the lower bazar here, something about the market complex…
R1	Yes, because I am the president here, I am also the member of that committee. In this all the street vendors will be moved to a complex. And after that the whole market will be empty, there will be no street vendors.
I2	Where did you get this information from?
R1	I don’t get this information from the meeting…we have an organization in Delhi, we are connected with them, and we have a meeting every month where we get all the information. I also have the documents of the law that was passed, it was passed from the council, supreme court stamped on it, all these documents I have.
I2	When was this about?
R1	This is from 2013…2012. It's the benefit of that. The thing that they are being moved from here and a place is given to them, is the benefit of that.
I1	What do you think about this, is moving them and placing them in a complex is good, what do you think?
R1	If all the street vendors are moved to one place, then it will work, but if some are moved and others are not then it will not work. For example, here, someone is selling shoes, someone chappals (slippers), someone is selling something else, so if the whole market is shifted to one place, then it will work for everyone.
I2	So, where are they going to place all of them?
R1	They are going to move all of them to Sabzi Mandi.
I2	Sabzi Mandi…
R1	There is a place in the Sabzi Mandi ground, a complete market can be built there. And from this 15th …
I2	Next to the lift what's…
R1	Near the lift, it's those who have documents of Teh bazari since 1998.
I2	They will be (00:03:59unintelligible), rest in the Sabzi mandi.
R1	Rest will be in Sabzi mandi ground.
I2	Have they issued any ID card for this?
R1	Right now, the cards have been made, the I-cards have been made and after 15th they will be re-issued to everyone who come under this. Right now, we have 598 people in the list. Which has been verified. Which will be distributed by 15th. After that there are 101, and then almost everybody will get it. But, 598 will get it initially.   
I2	So, you agree to it that if everyone gets it at one place, it will be good?
R1	It will be very good. It will work for everyone.
I2	It will work for everyone.
R1	Because the customer will go there, when he will not be able to get it in the market, he will go straight there. But if this happens that some went there and some did not, then it will be impossible, it will not work. After that, one will have to struggle again.
I2	Do you have issues right now, of challans or with the police?
R1	The thing is this madam, challan happens rarely, but after that by using our power, with the documents that have come from Delhi we get the challan cancelled. Now the corporation is being strict because they have to move us from here. And the card has been given to everyone, those how have card will have no problems, neither from the police nor from the corporation. Now there are so many and there is the need of those many cards. And it is my understanding that it will be done by 15th.
I2	Do you have any setting in the committee, is there someone who supports you here?
R1	In the committee we support through our organization, we have an organization.
I2	(00:05:54-55unintelligible) who goes from here, do you go from here?
R1	I go. I am related to C2.
I2	With C2?
R1	Yes, we have our whole organization here. And because of that organization we go there.
I2	How do you define the relationship with the committee, do they help or…?
R1	For example, if there are orders from the high court, they follow them, but they don’t follow the orders from the supreme court. Like, here they say, encroachment has happened, the roads have narrowed, move them from here. While the Supreme court say that whoever is sitting wherever, let them remain there and when it is completed there then they can be shifted from here to there, in the meanwhile no one should trouble them. But even after that the committee keeps using force. This has been our game since the childhood, between us and the committee. This gave has been going on since our childhood. It's committee's duty to move us from here, and it's our duty to put the shops here.
I1	Did anyone from the corporation come to you to talk about the plan of this complex?
I2	In the proposal of the smart city, even in that they have included the plan for the Lower Bazaar, did they consult with you or took any suggestion from you?
R1	No, there was no suggestion taken in that. When our committee was formed, when we became the members of it, at that time, it was included in that, saying when the smart city will be built you would be moved from there and given a different place.
I2	Okay.
R1	Unintelligible
I1	What places were told?
R1	Places were informed. 6 places have been marked. Out of 6 right now work at 1 has started.
I2	Which one?
R1	The one in the Sabji mandi ground.
I2	Okay
R1	We have space at IGMC road, down there near the bus stand, up there above the tunnel. We have a lot of space (in the sense of places) that the corporation has identified (marked) where we have to be adjusted. But, for the time being… and the government has given us a lot of (00:08:17-00:08:18 unintelligible) on this, but the corporation is sleeping. Since the BJP government has come the corporation has slept, it's not doing any work on this. This plan has itself been shelved.
I2	What do you think should be there in Smart City?
R1	This can be discussed when we are sitting. Right now, we are standing on the road. It's enough that we had so much discussion. 
I2	Okay
I1 	Okay, so your…
I2	Can you please give us a time when you are free then we will come and have a discussion peacefully? If you have a number, please give that.
I1 	I mean you are the president of your organization?
R1	Yes.


SI063
R1	See, it's you work so please do it.
I1	Please mind the rain.
I1	So, please tell me your name?
R1	My name is *** ***.
I1	So, for how many years you are here in the Lower bazar?
R1	I have been working here for 18 years.
I1	Okay.
R1	Yes.
I1	So, you are into the watch business only…
R1	Yes, we have done only the watch business.
I1	Since the beginning?
R1	Yes, yes.
I1	So, how did the bazar change, I mean, what changes happened in the bazar in 20 years?
R1	There have been a lot of changes in 20 years. Earlier all of it used to be Kachcha (temporary)…now everything is pakka (made of bricks) …I mean things used to be different earlier now they are different. Everything changes with time.
I1	Okay, so, in the smart city plan there is a redevelopment plan for the lower bazar, do you know anything about it?
R1	Smart city should be made. It's the capital. If the capital is not made a smart city, then what else will be built as smart city? Smart city should be built, but the thing is that, these guys are sitting here for so many years, they should not be moved from here. If you take the bread out of someone's mouth, isn't it wrong? Either you give them a place. You are making the smart city...each one of them has the receipts of Tehbazari. It's the duty of the government to give them a place. They also have families, where will they go, you tell me. Isn't it?
I1	If a complex is built…
R1	Build a complex and give a place to everyone and then accordingly the smart city will be built.
I1	Are you ready to move into the complex?
R1	Yes, we are absolutely ready. Whoever gets a place, will at least feed their children, will work peacefully. If you put the sword on someone's neck without any reason then it's wrong, isn't it? Now you tell me it's right or wrong? The decision that we are telling. Isn't it wrong? Look, they are sitting here for 15-20 years, it's been 18 years that I have been working here like this. Now if you tell me that you don’t work here, where will we go tell me? Look, if someone who would not work would then steal. Isn't it? Is it not wrong? The best thing is that, all of them should first get a complex and then they are moved from here, that's the better way.
I1	Did the corporation folks come to meet you…
R1	The guys from the corporation come and take away the stuff for no reason and then don’t return. Isn't that wrong? Where will people go you tell me?
I1	About the development plan of the bazar…
R1	This bazar that you see here, has been running in the same mode for last 30 years as you see here. People are sitting here. They have been given teh bazari receipts, it's been paid to the government. So, government also has a duty to give them something. Government also has its duties. Like I am there, it's been 18 years and all of that, but it does not mean that you take the bread away from someone's mouth and get him out of here and the shopkeepers make merry. That's wrong. 
I1	How many people are like you here?
R1	Like me there are hundreds of people.
I1	On the road?
R1	On the road there would be atleast 300 people, atleast 300.
I2	Card was also made?
R1	Card was made but there was no benefit of that card. Yet no place was given. Even then they come and take away the stuff of even those who were given cards. It's wrong.
I2	And that you put up your shop in front of this shop, do you also have to give something to them?
R1	No, not in front of this shop, I have been putting this up even before that, they don’t have any concern with it. Nothing to give or to take. It's been there since the beginning. Look, they all are sitting in front of the shops only. They are in front of you. They are since old times. There is nothing to do with the shops. It not that anyone is taking rent or anything. It's just there thinking that they are taking rent, no one is taking rent. It's just that people are sitting here and earning and only by that they are able to run their families. If they do not earn how will they run their homes, you tell? Look, if people don’t work, you make them move from here, then theft will take place, robberies will take place. Such are the things. This the government should understand and with that the crime will increase. It's a simple thing. 
I2	Do you have a union here?
R1	Yes, there is a union, Teh bazari union is there. Even there no one listens to others, these days (00:03:58 unintelligible) …for example…
I2	Your (00:04:00-00:04:01 unintelligible)
R1	Absolutely; It's been 18 years for me here, my card is made even then they take away all my stuff. Yesterday, this poor guy; they took away all his stuff yesterday.
I2	Okay.
R1	They took away all his stuff. Once they go there, they become stiff, they don’t return the things.
I2	So, do you have to give money?
R1	They don’t return even with money, what to say. (00:04:16-00:04:17 Unintelligible)
I2	Right.
R2	They said to me why do you come time and again…I said if I take away your child where would you go time and again? They took all my stuff; would I not go again and again?
I2	Committee or police?
R1	You see, committee and police together.
R2	They took all my stuff; they took my bread and butter…and then they are being strict on me as to why was I going there to them again and again. I just asked a direct question; if I take one of your family members, where all would you go again and again?
R1	Either government should do something. You make your smart city but give some place to the people as well. If you don’t give place to the people, where will they go? Unemployment will rise and the crime will rise because of that. I am telling you what is truth.
R2	(00:04:54-00:04:57 Unintelligible)
I1	Did the people from corporation talk to you about the smart city?
R1	People from the corporation spoke with us, in fact they took thumb print and all, they came from outside and did all the formality. But no place was given to us. Nothing was given. Government should also think about it. If it thinks only about itself…when we vote then the government is formed. If we don’t vote the government will not be formed. You should also look into this. We are paying tax on everything. We pay GST and everything, it's not that we are not paying tax to the government. Whatever good we get, it comes with GST, you also know it. That thing is over now (implying that there is no tax evasion now). Even then, when we are paying taxes and everything then why are they not giving us a place, tell me? Where will so many people go, who are sitting here? What will happen to their livelihood, tell me? Where will their children go? It should not be done like this. Either you, when you take our stuff issue a challan and give us our goods back. You don't even return our things. This is hooliganism then. Isn't it hooliganism? If someone takes your stuff, and even after paying money if it's not returned then it's hooliganism. If someone's is a big guy (rich) they will return to him. It's like this. Yesterday they took away the stuff of this poor guy, and they are returning it, whatever you do. They even abused him on top of that. What the point of it?
I1	If you get a place in that….
R1	Complex should be built, a good complex…
R2	If one gets a place to earn his livelihood, why would he toil here on the roads?
R1	Why would he sit on the road?
R2	A shopkeeper or whatever you may call it, if has a shop then why would he sit on the road? He will open his own counter and sit there. Right now, who does not have it, like us, have only one way, if they push us away from here, we will take it in our hands and sell it. A person will do something to survive to run his home and family. Now, you have taken someone's all the goods and on top of that you threaten him saying why do you come again and again. Now you have ... otherwise I never go there; you have taken all my stuff and that's the reason I have come. (00:07:07-00:07:10 Unintelligible) ...Not everyone has a shop all over India; 20% have shops, 20% is farmer, 20% are labourer’s, the government is troubling the 30% people who are somehow working by putting different kinds of stalls.
I2	You don’t get any help from your union?
R1	No one helps. They just take money and go. There is no help. They just take money for Tehbazari, they cut the receipt, that's all.
R2	When the election comes, then all the unions get together.
R1	Yes, then it happens. When there are elections.
R2	At the time of elections for a month or two, after that all the unions… when something…like right now all the elections are over, everyone is silent, nobody asks for us.
R1	When there is election, on one comes from the corporation. Then everyone is like, we will win, make us victories.
R2	At that time everyone is peaceful. You sit wherever you want, no one says a thing. You can sit where you want.
R1	That's the thing. It's hooliganism. This is wrong. The law must be same for everyone. All of them must be made to move from here. This is how it is. This is India. Nothing happens here.
I1	So, the business is going good here in the lower bazar.
R1	The business is not good. Everyone is earning their bread and butter. There is nothing much.
R2	The business starts from 1:30 and after 5 o'clock there is nothing. If someone gets something…
R1	No one comes after 5 o'clock. This is a hill station, it's a mountainous region, it's like a village, it's not a city. It happens in villages. After 5 PM there is no business here. 12-5. That's all.
R2	It's a tourist area. 12-5 whatever one gets that's it he has.
I1	You still call it a village?
R1	Yes, villagers live here, village folks come here, sir. Who comes here from city? You cross the tunnel; you will find only villages here. Bus stand…
I2	Are you from the village?
R1	I am also from the village. Why would I lie. I am also from the village. For livelihood everyone has to come. Yes. Everyone comes, everyone has to look after their homes. Everyone has to feed their children.
I1	It's very good that we spoke with you.
R1	If you make the smart city, you have to think about everyone. We say that it must be made but for everyone. Give place to everyone.
R2	It should be built for everyone. We are not saying that you give a showroom, but give some space to us for us to stand.
R1	Give just a little space.
R2	So that one can earn his bread. It should not happen that you chase out a person saying go and die wherever you want.
R1	We will not give the goods they say.
R2	At least 2-to-3-foot space must be given, where 500 people will stand, everyone will get to know that it's poor people's market. I hail from Allahabad; I have been here for 25 years. Allahabad was a bad city, but today Yogi has made it the number one place in Bharat. There also used to be so many street vendors who used to ply on the roads but now they don’t ply on the roads, they all have been made to stand next to the road. Like if this is the road, then 40 this side and 40 that side, everyone has been given a place to stand. (00:10:21-00:10:30 Unintelligible). For 10 kilometers people stand in a row on the road side, with their carts in the front and they behind it. All sorts of people come and buy from them, those who come on cars or those who would like a pan or something come and buy from them. And here, my stuff was packed, 4 people came and the police was there they took it and went away. And when I went to get my things back, they threatened me asking why do you come here again and again. I went there again, but when I saw the same guy who scolded me, I returned without saying anything.
I1	Do the corporation guys do it more often now a days?
R2	No, they never come, they come without any prior intimation, like it's raining and I am busy in my work or like if there are no customers and I am snoozing, they would come as a surprise and take all the stuff and go away.
I2	Do you not get some info that they are coming from others?
R1	(00:11:47-00:11:49 UNINTELLIGIBLE) If they have to take someone's stuff, they come and take it.
R2	Those who are strong they don’t take theirs; they take away those who are weak. This is the system.
R1	This system is wrong. This system should be changed.
R2	There is this guy in front of us, he picks up his stick and say who dares to get his leg broken shall come forward.
R1	They never take … Those who have shops have so much stuff outside of the shops but they never take anything from them. We are sitting outside they take our goods. It's like this.
R2	At *** *** shop there is a guy who sells chappal, he beat that guy from here to there, till date they don’t mess with him.
I1	He beat the committee guys?
R2	Yes, quite a lot of beating. He beat them for 2 hours.
R1	If you trouble the same guy again and again what would he do?
I2	When did this happen?
R2	It's been 2-3 months. And, those who are weak they…
R1	Where have you come from?
I2	We have come from Delhi. We have the research organization in Delhi, we have come from there. However, my home is in Kolkata.
R1	Some people had come from Haryana, they took our photographs.
I1	The rain has become heavy.
R2	The rain here…the weather here is like this. 6 months in a year there is rain. After the sun suddenly it will rain and you won’t realize how it happened.
R1	It rains almost daily here. This is Shimla. It's not hot here.
R2	Now, like, me and him, we have to go to Delhi every 10 days.
I2	You go to Delhi?
R1	Yes, to buy things.
R2	Now, because, here we buy something for 70 and sell it for 100. 15 Rs is the expense in it or 10 is the expense. Here even if you buy it in wholesale, you get 60 rupees thing for 100.
R1	We give benefit to the people.
R2	Now this we sell for 200 Rs, we get it for 170 Rs.
R1	And if you go to the shop the same thing is for 400 Rs.
R2	And we, the people on the road can’t even come down to 90 from 100, because we work on the margin of 20-25 rupees. But the shopkeeper will tell you from 600 to 2400 for the same thing, you will get in the trap somewhere. If you like the thing you will give some price to it. But if our customer is giving 90, we can’t give it to him. Because we get 15 to 20 rupees.
I1	Are there many people from Allahabad or you are alone? You are alone from UP.
R2	No, I am alone here from Allahabad. There are a lot of people from Lucknow area. There are a lot of people from Bihar, there are even a lot of people from your Kolkata. Those who came initially stayed here, the business was good initially but now the business has slowly finished.


Expectations of SC / clean[s.1]
The basics have to be sorted[s.2]