KPMG RESETTLEMENT FEASIBILITY STUDY POST-REPORT CONSULTATION MEETING
Public Meeting
12:00-14:00, 04/01/2015
Manchester
Speakers/Organisers:
Nathan Hill, KPMG London
Andrew Price, KPMG environmental consultant

Interpreter: 
Rekha Narula

Audience members:
Approximately 50 Chagossians

Transcript of proceedings
Nathan Hill: I don’t know how many of you were here in July but last July my two colleagues Nancy and Matthew did the consultation event.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Audience members respond]

Rekha Narula: Yeah, everybody who is here was also there in July. 

Nathan Hill: Okay. Well Matthew and Nancy aren’t available, um, but myself, Nathan, and Professor Andrew Price have been in the study team since the start. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol] 

Nathan Hill: I actually work for KPMG, I’m a permanent KPMG member of staff and I have provided project management support to Matthew throughout the life of the project. And this is Professor Andrew Price who is our environment expert. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: I thought it would be good to bring Andrew here today because I know you’re very much interested in the environmental side of things. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And so I’m just going to give Andrew the floor for a few minutes to explain his background and a bit about himself. 

Andrew Price: Okay thank you, and again, thank you all for coming today.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So just by way of introduction, I work in university and in the real world or the outside world.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: I, in term of Chagos, I’ve been there four times – three times on research cruises on a ship

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: and most recently in May as part of the KPMG consultation and visits to the islands, that was in May. May 2014.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So yeah just, just with my work, I do a lot of work for the United Nations and governments of the world on various environmental and planning matters.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But we will also, of course be very interested in hearing your views about the study, about the feasibility study, which, at the end of the presentation.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Okay, this is just the structure of the presentation. First I’ll go through the purpose of this 2-hour meeting, I’ll give you some background to the study, then I’ll sort of give some slides on the consultation process, especially the consultation process with the community in Manchester, in London, Crawley, Mauritius and the Seychelles. Then I’ll get into sort of the bones of the study, the analysis which has different sections – a legal section, environmental section, a livelihoods section which is, you know, how people will get their income (inaudible), then into the infrastructure, the resettlement options that we have been formulated, the costs that we have estimated for those different options. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: So these presentations, like in June and July, will be taking place in Mauritius, Seychelles, Crawley, Manchester. We’re not in London this time because the amount of days we have left before publishing this month is quite small, and basically the purpose of this meeting is to give you a brief presentation on what we have found out in the past 7-8 months but also for you to ask any sort of clarification questions on anything that you’ve seen in the report, anything about the process that we have gone through to reach our conclusions, and a chance for you to offer your views on any part of the feasibility study in general. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: So this visit is still part of an ongoing consultation process. The final report will be published at the end of January so this will be your final chance to provide any comments on the feasibility study and we will use those comments to finalise our final report in the next few weeks.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Okay, a brief background to the study. I know you probably know the background given, if you were here in July or June, July. KPMG were appointed as an independent consultant to manage the study and conduct the study in late February 2014 and our inception report came out in April which set out how we were going to conduct the study and the processes that we would go through and the methodology that we would use to conduct the study. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: A very important point that I like is that this is an independent team of experts. KPMG is an independent private firm, one of the big four advisory and accountancy firms in the world. We are unrelated to the British government. We have just been hired independently to conduct an independent study into the feasibility of resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: The team consisted of two management-level people from KPMG, that’s myself and Matthew Boyle who you all, or half of you might have met last time, but also a selection of key specialists, or subject matter specialists, which is Professor Andrew Price the environmental specialist, we had Nancy Laatunen which was the resettlement and social specialist, we had Malcolm Summerfield who was the economist, and we had Yusaf Samiullah who was the infrastructure specialist in our team, so a mixed group of experts. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And we also had, I forgot sorry, James Nugent who was the legal specialist, he is a barrister that usually works for United Nations.

[Interruption as people arrive and seats are found]

Andrew Price: Actually just one important point to add there if I may, that as Nathan said, there are various specialty people looking at different aspects of resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So we are looking at resettlement from an economic point of view, an environmental point of view, etcetera

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But then it is the government not KPMG that makes the decision finally, so we are just providing advice on these different aspects

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Yeah I think it’s important to really highlight what the report doesn’t do because I think in our last consultation meetings with people, there are certain subject matters that are outside the scope of study which people in the Chagossian community, who are very important for them. They are important fundamental issues which we have been instructed not to touch, for other government policy reasons. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: So sorry, as Andrew did say we are not making a recommendation as to whether resettlement should happen. We are providing a range of options which if the government wanted resettlement to happen, they would have at their disposal and then they would decide whether they want to go ahead with them. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Also we realise that the issue of citizenship is a very important issue. Again it’s a government policy that we’ve been told not to look at this in the report. What we can do and have done is just flag it up in the section of the report - a section which just says ‘these are the important issues that are outside the scope of the study, these issues, such as citizenship, need to be looked at if resettlement is to go ahead.’

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: We will be providing costings of each of the options, so how much would it cost the UK tax payer to fund this initially, so that’s what we did but what we won’t be doing is saying to the government if this is affordable or not. It’s up to the government to decide themselves whether it’s affordable for them to spend this money on these options. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And finally we won’t be making any recommendations on the strategy for negotiations between the government and the Chagossians, and the government and the US army, after the study. Once the study is completed at the end of January, KPMG and the team will (inaudible) the study. Whatever happens after the 30th January between the UK government and yourselves, we won’t be providing any more input into resettlement.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Okay so there we are

[Rekha Narula stops Andrew says she will wait for people to return with water. When everyone is present she translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Okay in this slide just to show where the islands and atolls are. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]
Andrew Price: The central slide shows Chagos or BIOT which is right in the centre there, right in the centre of the Indian Ocean. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: On the right hand slide we see Diego Garcia which is an atoll and an island, and the other main atolls are Salomon atoll with the island and Peros Banhos. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And as you will already know, Diego Garcia is the biggest island and that is an aerial photograph on the left

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Two important messages come from these slides. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: The first is that the coral reefs of Chagos are amongst the best in the Indian Ocean and probably the world.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And why this is very important we’ll look at in the next slide or two. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And related to this, the archipelago, as you know, was created as a very large Marine Protected Area in 2010

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Which reflects its environmental importance

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But was never intended by the UK government for this to be an obstacle to any resettlement

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So that’s the kind of first important point or set of points. The second one, you’ll see that because the islands are very remote

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Which makes it relatively expensive to transport things to Chagos

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Okay, before we get onto the technical subject matter, we had consultations with the community as you know in June and July, and this slide just sort of highlights the key messages that came from these consultations

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: There seemed to be a desire to resettle in BIOT permanently rather than to go on temporary visits

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And people expected a standard of life similar to the average UK citizen, or a standard of life which you would expect in the UK, and that Diego Garcia would be involved in any resettlement package.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: It came up that the community in (inaudible) very environmentally conscious and were very keen in taking an active part in any sort of environmental monitoring, any sort of environmental watchfulness in any resettlement

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: There seems to be a wide range of skills in the community in all places, ranging from electricians and plumbers to admin, government admin staff and barristers and marine biologists, so a very wide mix of skills which could be quite suitable for resettlement, but they’re also a very keen desire to be trained in skills that would be relevant and useful in any sort of life in BIOT.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: The three main livelihood options that were suggested were fishing, coconut plantations and tourism. This isn’t an exhaustive list. This is the strongest livelihood options that came out of our consultation meetings and these are the three options that we’ve looked at most in our report.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: This is quite technical so I’m just going to go through it very briefly. I think the main point to take away from this slide is that there is no insurmountable legal obstacles to resettlement, so there is no legal reason why you shouldn’t be able to resettle. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: There would be various different legal aspects that would have to be looked at if resettlement was to go ahead and the government would have to look at this. The constitutional framework and immigration ordinances would have to be changed. Of course at the moment no one is allowed to resettle there so there would need to be wide scale changes to the legal aspects including to the immigration aspects as well.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: We’ve highlighted in the legal section that the issue of nationality and citizenship will need to be looked at if resettlement is to go ahead, and the law will need to be changed. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: We’ve looked at various governance possibilities, of how people in any sort of resettlement would govern themselves, and a (inaudible) governor seems like an option for BIOT.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And of course the civil service system would need to be developed, sort of administrators but also (inaudible) other sorts of civil service positions which is also an option for livelihoods and jobs.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: If resettlement was to happen, the first thing would maybe perhaps a consultative body would be set up with Chagossians so their views about how things would run could be taken into account which is consistent with what happens in other overseas territories. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And finally options for revenue and (inaudible) would need to be developed, so who has authority to raise revenues and who gets the choice to spend that revenue on different elements

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: The report does, in the legal section, actually highlight quite a lot of quite technical and slightly boring sort of elements, the practical elements that need to be taken into account by the government, that they need to think about if they are resettling the Chagossian population. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Okay, back to the environment. We saw in the earlier slides that coral reefs are an important part of Chagos. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But they’re important not just for fish and for the marine biology, but that they’re also important for a more fundamental reason.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Without coral reef there would be no Chagos

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: The sand that the islands are made of comes from the coral

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So the environmental portion of this feasibility study is important for two reasons

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: One reason which we’ll look at in a minute may be the obvious one is what might be the effects of resettlement – of buildings, jetties, etcetera – what might be the effect on the environment?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But the more fundamental reason is that the, is to look at the effects of the environment on resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: As you will all probably know, sea level is rising across the world

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Partly because of natural changes, but primarily as a result of human activities. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: increased carbon dioxide etcetera

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So the IEPCC, the Intergovernmental Environmental Panel on Climate Change

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: They are predicting a rise of about over half a centimetre per year

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Now you might say well these are predictions, they might be wrong

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But measurements are also being made and unfortunately they also show that sea level is rising

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Now fortunately coral reefs have the ability to grow upwards

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: What is really important is that the coral reefs grow upwards faster than sea level rise

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Now some studies have measured how fast reefs grow

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And the average figure is around about three and a half millimetres per year

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But some parts of the world a bit higher, some parts of the world a bit lower

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So far these measurements have not yet been made in Chagos

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: An important point is that coral reefs that are healthy have got more chance of growing faster upwards to combat sea level rises

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Male audience member 1 (Jimmy Elysee): Sorry, can I ask a question? 

Andrew Price: Yeah

Jimmy Elysee: If it isn’t measured in the Chagos so why (inaudible)

Andrew Price: Why is?

Jimmy Elysee: That up...Why are those figures up there?

Andrew Price: Those figures are just to kind of give the average measurement so it’s really to make the general point that sea level rise, you know, is happening at quite a high rate and where coral growth has been measured it’s an average of about three and a half, now it’s more in some areas, some in others. And as part of the ongoing research, that will be measured in Chagos. So the point of showing that slide is just basically to show it’s a very important issue. So a very good question. So you know, research is done, um, is done and it is updated and improved upon all the time. 

Jimmy Elysee: Can you tell us in the last hundred years what’s the level of water (inaudible)?

Andrew Price: Yeah, so over the last – we’ve got another slide which we can show on that – over the last, since about the 1980s measurements of sea level rise have been approximately five to six millimetres per year, as measured by tidal gauge.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Just to add that it’s a very good question, that. The difficulty is there are lots of ups and downs in the data, that’s for Diego Garcia. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Some scientists are saying five to six millimetres per year. Some others say perhaps three millimetres per year. Okay with the tidal gauge measurements. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Rekha Narula: The interpreter has forgotten the word for tidal gauge. Sorry, it’s okay. Thank you. 

[Laughter ]

Andrew Price: Okay. When the measurements of sea level rise with the tidal gauge measure the change in sea level and also if land has moved up and down.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Okay. Measurements have also, are also made by satellite. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And in the Chagos area the increase is about three millimetres per year 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: but the satellites don’t take into account any land movements here. It’s just basically how much the ocean is going up or down.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So I hope that extra clarification was clear

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But again just to say the very important point is that reefs that are healthy have a better chance of growing

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And in Chagos, in BIOT, the reefs are probably in as good condition or better than almost anywhere else in the Indian Ocean.  

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And a major reason for that is that there aren’t the disturbances from sewerage etcetera, etcetera, from big populations that many other coastal populations experience. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: There is also a background issue if you like, a background problem is that the oceans are becoming more acidic which is not good for coral reefs. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Which of course, on, this is a problem, it’s a global, it’s the result of global climate change 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: which small islands states cannot do much about. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But issues like sewerage, construction, development pressures, these are things that can be managed to some extent

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So on the, so in that last slide we’ve been looking primarily at what the environment might do to resettlement and on this slide it summarises what resettlement might do to the environment. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So what this slide does it to look at the relative impacts or disturbance from different resettlement options. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: If we consider Diego Garcia first

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Obviously some buildings would be constructed and these would need to be operated

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And of course so there would be some environmental disturbance from this

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Diego Garcia already has an airport and a port

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And if resettlement was to occur and it was to occur on Diego Garcia

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Then obviously environmentally it would be beneficial if the port and airport could be used

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But again that would, on a practical level, that would depend on negotiations between the US and UK governments

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So other disturbances that would be, there are some areas that are important for birds

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: For example, the Eastern part of Diego Garcia has signed up to what is called the RAMSAR Convention

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And the RAMSAR Convention gives protection to what we call wetlands, things like swamps, coastal vegetation, but it also includes coral reefs. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: There would also be some impacts from, you can see on the slides, from solid waste, from sewerage

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: To the fishery also, fishing would possibly be harmful
[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But just to give a bit more information on the fishery. The fishery in Diego Garcia is currently used by people from the base, there is recreational fishing.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And catches have been affected, they have gone down even with quite light or modest fishing levels.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But that is not to say that if Chagossians did go back to Diego Garcia, that they would not be allowed to fish.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: One option might be for the um, people from the facility not to undertake any recreational fishing

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But instead for any fishing to be done would be by Chagossians

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But at a level that would not cause ongoing depletion to the stocks. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Other damage could come from non-sustainable use of coral or sand as building material

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: For example in the Maldives coral has been used quite extensively for building

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And in countries like Sri Lanka it has actually been mined to make cement

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: We saw in the early slides that the coral is actually very important for the, for the health and existence of the islands

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So it would not be, er, would not be a good idea environmentally to use coral extensively as building material. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: If we now look at options on the outer islands, so just as you all fully appreciate on Diego Garcia there are infrastructures and development

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: On the outer islands, all the other islands, there is no one living there and there are some remnants of buildings on one or two of the islands, but essentially there is nothing

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So the key point is on the outer islands everything would need to be built there

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And most importantly, if there was a port or an airport this would be very damaging environmentally

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And this could potentially be damaging to the whole Marine Protected Area

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Although if the Marine Protected Area was zoned into areas where development can take place

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And where it can’t take place

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Then that would help

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But the bottom line from this slide is that environmentally, Diego Garcia, the impact from resettlement would be much less on Diego Garcia than the outer islands

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And particularly noting that Diego Garcia is not part of the big Marine Protected Area

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But all the other islands are in it

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: So environmentally and economically, Diego Garcia

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Okay just um, so in terms of what jobs might be available. I mean when we were on Diego Garcia and the other islands in May and they said that there can be potential employment on the military facility on Diego

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Fishing is obviously an option and in the report we’ve provided a lot of information about what levels of fishing might be acceptable and damaging

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Tourism is obviously a possible option on, particularly on the outer islands

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Many divers like to go to places where few other people have been

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: BIOT would be one such place

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: And other options, as Nathan mentioned the coconut industry is a possibility

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Which of course was the former livelihood of Chagossians living there

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: We’ve stressed the importance in the report of environmental monitoring

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: To check on the health of the coral reefs and other parts of the environment

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]
Andrew Price: And we would see that Chagossians would play a part in this ongoing environmental monitoring

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Er, small scale agriculture is another livelihood option

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Okay, so this is our feasibility study. I suppose the overarching opinion of the study is that resettlement is feasible, there is no fundamental physical barriers to resettlement, and that’s where we come onto our options and the issue of costs

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: I’ll start with Option 3. Option 3 really is a pilot sort of resettlement so there’s a very limited amount of people first and foremost, so a population of 150 people that would go on to Diego Garcia and mostly work as staff providing services to the American and UK army facility.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: This would be very small scale, a very limited amount of additional infrastructure would be needed, a very minimal environmental impact, and I think

[Rekha Narula says ‘the interpreter forgot to say something as well’. Translates into Kreol] 

Nathan Hill: What this would also do is give the government a test case: is there 150 people that actually wanted to go and actually are physically there, settled, er, being productive, er, happy there? Are they there for a few years and still want to be there or are they people leaving? Um so a bit of a test case. They might see it as a quite a lot of money to invest without sort of testing the waters a bit.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 1 [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: A question please. When the government took people out of Diego Garcia, out of Chagos islands, they didn’t take out 150 people. They took out the entire population. So when they are going to put a population back, it’s not 150 they have to put back, it’s the entire population. 

Andrew Price: Could I?

Nathan Hill: Yes, um, I completely appreciate your point, um, the government has to looked at a range of options and we’ve been tasked to give a series of options which they’ll have a look at. It might seem unfair to you but the government are fair more likely to accept a very small scale option first and foremost and then see how that goes and that might expand to 500 people, to 1500 people. They’re more likely to accept that than if you just presented an option of 5000 people resettling. They’d be very likely to accept that as a resettlement option, as unfair as that is. 
[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Requests a short comfort break. Upon return, continues translating (possibly missing audio)].

Nathan Hill: Option 1 proposes a much wider variety of lifestyle options. It involves, well first and foremost it involves Diego Garcia but also two of the outer islands: Boddam and Ile du Coin, um, (inaudible) of private sector, high level, high end tourism there with jobs on the tourism (inaudible), um, and a wide sort of fisheries, so commercial fisheries, so a lot more modern, a lot more varied way of life than the other two options. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: But as you get to 1500 people and beyond and the level of infrastructure that this would entail, you are really pushing the boundaries of the physical carrying capacity of the islands

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And just the costs of these options, in this grey box here, it’s quite expensive. A couple of costs range from 55 million for option 3 to 371 million per year (inaudible) 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: So it’s...371 million capital cost for option 3 is so expensive because of it being over 200 million capital cost of setting up an airport and ports for the outer islands

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And obviously option 1 would be, given the money, a more practical solution because it is such, well it costs 55 million.

Rekha Narula [Seeking clarification]: Option 3?

Nathan Hill: Option 3, sorry

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: And it’s basically more expensive because of, as you saw in previous slides, how remote it is and how expensive it is to get resources to the islands.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Can we just finish two more slides and then we will take questions for half an hour, until the end of it

Female audience member 1: Yeah, yeah, okay

Nathan Hill: And just to give you some sort a visualisation of what these, what the costings and what these resettlement options actually comprise of on the sort of micro scale. (Inaudible) the sort of left here of what the cost is of housing, a school, a clinic, an admin building for civil service, shops, workshops, religious centres, agricultural areas for small scale agriculture, and then sort of larger, sort of more technical things, sort of, the water supply system, sewerage, what to do with solid waste, the roads and power stations, the sea defences if in the future the sea level rise is quite high, and then for option 1 only the airport. So because the Americans have told the British government not to expect to use their facilities, we might have to, the British government might have to factor in, that’s why it’s so expensive, the cost of building all of these things, and that’s why it’s expensive.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: The British (inaudible) as strong as that. So if the British, in negotiations with Americans, the lease is up for negotiation in 2016. If in negotiations they agree to share a lot of these facilities obviously the cost will go down and that will be better for the British government and for any potential resettlement

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Male audience member 2 [speaks at same time as interpreter]: We don’t want to negotiate with them. We want them to go and give back the island

Nathan Hill: For the purposes of our study we can’t assume that the Americans are going to agree to use of the airport

Male audience member 2:  No, we don’t want them (inaudible) 

Nathan Hill [simultaneously]: we have to cost in this additional infrastructure 

Male audience member 2: no negotiation

Nathan Hill: I was being realistic about (inaudible) what’s happening

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: We have no say over British politics. This is purely a technical feasibility study. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: One more slide. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: I mean obviously we’ve come to the end of our study now so very small amount of next steps. The draft report will take into account all the comments you have today and then the other consultation meetings in different areas: Mauritius, Seychelles and Crawley. The final report will be published on the 30th of January. And also with the final report there will be a separate consultation report which will highlight the consultation process that we undertook with all the comments from not just Chagossians but stakeholders, environmentalists, patrons of Chagossian groups, etcetera. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]
Nathan Hill: Thank you folks for listening. Sorry you’ve been here for quite a long presentation but now we’ve got half an hour with any comments or thoughts you have. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: I know there are certain elements such as citizenship and the Americans that are noted and very important obviously but these are stuff that we can’t help with or include in our study because it’s outside our study, so if you can keep it within what we talked about. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 2 [in Kreol]: My question is if you send people will it be only to Diego Garcia?

Andrew Price: The answer to that is no there are other islands included as well. So Diego Garcia is one of the options.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 2 [in Kreol]: Okay, so if you send 1,500 people to Diego Garcia for example, within 5 years the government would have recouped that money, so could our children follow us if we go to Diego Garcia? Could our children follow us?

Nathan Hill: If the government decides that that’s what they want to do, um, you know, we are giving the government options, you know, if resettlement did occur and there was a certain set amount of people that went and the resettlement were successful then you know the government might decide to allow more people in the short term.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 2 [in Kreol]: My second question is if you send people to go and resettle on Diego Garcia, Boddam or Ile du Coin, what we want, what we the Chagossian community want is Chagos for the Chagossians. We don’t want people coming from Mauritius and having their children there. We want Chagos. We want to create our babies there, we want to be there. 

Nathan Hill: We can’t answer that because that will be a government decision but I think

Rekha Narula: But Chagos, essentially what this lady’s idea is is Chagos only for the Chagossians?

Nathan Hill: We can read between the lines, I mean we don’t know until the government decides on nationality but reading between the lines this will be, that resettlement, if it were to occur, would be for Chagossian people

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: So you won’t have Mauritian, you won’t have Seychelles people, Japanese, Australian

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]
Female audience member 3 [in Kreol]: Okay so end of January you have to present your report to the government

Nathan Hill: Yep

Female audience member 3 [in Kreol]: When will we know what the government decides?

Nathan Hill: All we know is on the 30th of January we will be publishing our report. After that the government will have to digest it and, and we don’t know what the process is going to be after that. That’s where we leave, that’s when our contract ends. There is purdah, there is the elections coming up and there is a very keen desire within government to get this sorted and done before purdah and the elections

[Questions of clarification from audience member and interpreter]

Nathan Hill: Um sorry purdah is sort of (inaudible) before the elections where the parliament shuts down. So next – we hope within a few months after our report is published

Rekha Narula: Okay, so a few months after. 

Nathan Hill: Yeah

Rekha Narula: And it’s the 30th, not the 31st? 

Nathan Hill: 30th

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 4 [in Kreol]: So once you publish then (inaudible)

Nathan Hill: Er, we have already been told that before parliament disbands for elections for (inaudible), they will be debating the report in parliament. We’ve spoken to the All Parliamentary, er the All Party Parliamentary Group for BIOT

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: So when we find out the date of that we can make that known.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Male audience member 3 [in Kreol]: So if I’ve understood it correctly, the government will be sending 1,500 people. If they send more, it will be much more money. 

Nathan Hill: No. Um. We have set out three options. The first option will be a pilot resettlement of 150 people, the second option is 500 people, and the third option is 1,500 people. We don’t know what they’re going to decide.

Male audience member 3 [in Kreol]: Okay. The thing is we are hearing that it’s going to cost x amount by some people, it’s going to cost a lot of money if we send so many people, but does the British government know the value of the Chagossian community, because you know when they say they are going to send back 1,500 or 500, they have to know the value of the people they are sending back. Because all we hear is how much it’s going to cost and that it’s going to cost a lot of money. 

Nathan Hill: I think we (inaudible)

Rekha Narula: They’re trying to say that the government does not realise the value of the people they’re sending back.

Nathan Hill: Of the economic value?

Rekha Narula: And their burden, their worth, as a burden.

Nathan Hill: Their human value?

[Multiple audience members comment (inaudible)]

Rekha Narula: Putting a value on the resettlement.

Nathan Hill: Yeah, yeah. They can’t put a value on them as people. The government will be very hard-nosed about it.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: We, I mean we, I mean KPMG and the government appreciate that, you know, every person has a high value but this study is trying to look at actually on the one hand the cost of different resettlement options and also the other side of the equation is the livelihoods and money that they might be able to generate

Female audience member 5: Before there is nothing. Now? Why now? Before you did not say that, why now? Before you said nothing so now (inaudible – multiple voices) back. Before it was not like that. When they want to get everything (inaudible)

[Male audience member adds comments]

Andrew Price: We appreciate very much, you know, your situation and your sentiments but as, as we’ve kind of pointed out this is a feasibility study which cannot look at every single issue surrounding Chagos and the BIOT so we’ve, we’ve basically examined the feasibility of resettlement from different options, from political ones, economic, social and environmental.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Female audience member 5 continues to speak in Kreol]

Andrew Price: We can’t turn the clocks back and make history go in a different direction

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Female audience member 5 continues to speak in Kreol. Male audience member speaks in Kreol. Audience discussion]

Rekha Narula: If you look around you at how much the government is spending on wars and other aspects and yet now they’re talking about this resettlement as if it’s like some big financial burden

Nathan Hill: The government hasn’t said anything about costs. We have just given these costs as they are. The government hasn’t said anything to us about whether this is too expensive or not

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: They might say that they can afford it and they will resettle with one of these options. We just don’t know.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: Sorry just also in response to that, one of the earlier slides said that the KPMG study does not look at affordability. It is only looking at the costs and options. We cannot make choices for government on how the money is spent. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 6 [in Kreol]: I would like to thank you for your work for the project you’ve presented and representing before the government.  We all here, and certainly for me, I would like to go back with my entire family, my husband, my children. I would like to be buried there, I have family who are there or are going to be, are buried there, but I would also like to know how long it would take to move us there, to resettle us there. 

Andrew Price: This feasibility study is a kind of start of a process and if resettlement was going to occur there would be a number of practical and logistical issues that would have to be examined. For example, how long, if approval was given, then one very practical issue as you say is how long it would take to get you all out there and that would be, that would have to be looked at but that is not in our... 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 6 [in Kreol]: So your report should include our comments so what I want to say is that I would like to go back with my entire family. But the thing is I want to die out there. Because I could go tomorrow morning but I would like to die out there.

Nathan Hill: Yeah, that’s a very comment thought with all Chagossians that, well most Chagossians that we’ve put so, yeah

Andrew Price: I mean we appreciate the point you’ve made and even though some of these questions and issues fall outside of our study we could certainly convey your thoughts and feelings to the authorities and we could certainly do that. 

Nathan Hill: We have a separate consultation report and that will have (inaudible)

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 7 (Claudia Naraina): Can I ask please? I have to be in work for 4...I’ve got to ask all my questions because I don’t have time really, I have to be in work at 4 o’clock. I’ve two questions regarding the environment. You know the draft report mentioned about the Chagossians being involved in a conservation project? And is training going to be provided to the Chagossians to help in this project?

Andrew Price: It already is being provided

Claudia Naraina: By?	

Andrew Price: By um, for example Bangor University is doing training in environmental monitoring. That’s one training programme. Also Chagossians have been out on the Pacific Marlin, the ship, so they are already actively engaged. So that’s 

Claudia Naraina: Who’s funding for all these training to people?

Andrew Price: Um...where the money is...I think some comes from the Darwin Initiative and there’s also a big programme with the Zoological Society in London

Claudia Naraina: Yes

Andrew Price: So, which you, you know, you probably know about. So I mean it’s, these programmes are already underway and Chagossians are being involved, so there are training programmes and it is certainly the expectation that Chagossians will be involved in environmental monitoring, any restoration work which I think, I believe they’ve already helped with that in Diego Garcia. So for example with Kew Gardens there is a kind of collaboration, so it is actually, it is happening already

Claudia Naraina: So you’re going to 

Andrew Price: and it actually makes sense to make use of Chagossian skills and enthusiasm and effort, so that would continue

Claudia Naraina: Okay. So this er...So if these Chagossians are going to be involved in these environmental projects, so human activities on the islands won’t be a problem then? You know, if Chagossians are there then being involved in, you know, in helping the scientists to protect the islands

Andrew Price: Yeah that would be very beneficial, I mean obviously there are all sorts of activities but that would be one of the expected activities, to participate in the environmental work, I mean as part of the kind of livelihoods. So er, and it is an important one because the position that we’ve said is that you know we can try and predict what resettlement might do to the environment. We can do fancy models but the only way to find out is through monitoring so that would be a, that is seen as a big project and there is, we’ve said it will cost I think 2 and a half million dollars or something because it’s really important and Chagossians would play a big role in that.
Nathan Hill: It would be a, I envisage it being quite large livelihood option and a lot of income opportunities there for people. (inaudible) sort of thing (inaudible) preserving the environment is a livelihood option so it basically makes perfect sense for the government to do that

Claudia Naraina: And also quickly, sorry, you mentioned about the construction materials that’s going to be used on the islands. Rather than using, you know, the corals on the islands, could it not be purchased by, you know, on other islands like Mauritius or as well rather than using the corals

Andrew Price: Exactly, I mean I 

Claudia Naraina: or other, to protect, you know, from the islands

Andrew Price: A very, an extremely good question, good point and in fact already a lot of material is imported from Mauritius but you know it does come with a cost. So around Diego Garcia they have built sea defences because of sea level rise and we saw these big boulders about, you know, so high. Now I don’t know what these weigh, about 20 tonnes each, so, you know, there is a cost, each one of those coming from Mauritius or the, which is probably the nearest island. So absolutely. But alternatives, do, you know, there is a fairly, there is an economic cost. I mean that’s the real point of it. Not to say that it shouldn’t happen but it’s just costly. So basically it’s kind of weighing up all these different options. 

Claudia Naraina: Yeah. Two more questions. Sorry. I really, really need to go. It’s just about the cost. You said the government is going to decide whether it is affordable or not, but what do you think? Is it, can it be afforded?

Nathan Hill: Not, we can’t, it’s not up to us, it’s outside our

Claudia Naraina: You can’t tell us. But can you advise the government, or can you tell us whether you are going to say, where the money is going to come from?

Nathan Hill: The government will speak to parliamentarians and sort of people

Claudia Naraina: You won’t have a say that? You can’t actually say where the money is going to come from or

Nathan Hill: Yeah we don’t know the government budgets in each department so we don’t know where the money would come from. So they would have to look very hard at the finances every year and try to figure out if there was a budget or not so we don’t have that power or that knowledge of what money they have really

Claudia Naraina: You don’t know what

Andrew Price: (inaudible) on relevant decisions on budget but we just have no control over that

Nathan Hill: Shall we spend 50 million this year on resettling the Chagossians or shall we spend 50 million on Ebola response in West Africa? It’s all these decisions, you know. They have a certain amount of money and they need to decide who to spend it on, and we can’t decide for them which, which, where to spend it.
Claudia Naraina: Because we don’t know what the public think, you know like, um, other people think, whether, you know, the government is going to use UK tax, you know

Nathan Hill: Public opinion might be very important

Claudia Naraina: You know what I mean

Jimmy Elysee: Last time we asked questions which Matthew and Nancy said they were going to come back with answers

Claudia Naraina: Hm?

Jimmy Elysee: Do you know the last time you asked that question, Mathew and Nancy said they were going to come back with answers which

Claudia Naraina: Well I think there are a few things that were highlighted in the report itself. Well I’ve seen some of the few questions that, some of the answers to the questions that we’ve answered last time. I don’t know if we’ve had any more questions

Andrew Price: Okay, good, okay. [To Jimmy] Have you had any problems with this one?

Jimmy Elysee: Quite a few people asked different questions. It’s just a shame people don’t 

Andrew Price: Oh right, okay

Jimmy Elysee: turn up to give the answer (inaudible) answer last time, do you know what I mean?

Nathan Hill: Well we won’t have the answers to (inaudible)

Jimmy Elysee: One thing I’d like to ask is why can’t...can you ask the government to send one representative at least to clarify all them questions that you can’t answer 

Andrew Price:  There is an issue that some of these, what we have to confine our discussions to is what relates to the feasibility study and I think many of the issues and questions are obviously extremely important but they are beyond the remit of the study, so it’s a different, it’s a different

Nathan Hill: But you’re right: They’re questions for the government

Jimmy Elysee: Yeah, just if the government could send one representative to speak to us so we can clarify all 

Nathan Hill: (inaudible) I think maybe in Crawley, I don’t know how often they are but the FCO do go and meet Chagossian leaders in Crawley to discuss wider issues (inaudible)

Jimmy Elysee: So far we’ve not received any

Nathan Hill: (inaudible) and ask

[Multiple voices (inaudible)]

Andrew Price: We could certainly...If you felt that there should be government representatives so that you can voice some of these wider issues, is that what you’re saying? Yeah, yeah, then we can mention that

Claudia Naraina: Yeah, final question and then I’m going. The standard of living. You know you mentioned about, you know, people having the same standard of living as here. 

Nathan Hill: Yeah

Claudia Naraina: It’s fine for us, we live in the UK. But how about people, other Chagossians, who live, you know, like in Mauritius, in the Seychelles, how about them?

Nathan Hill: Well they would have the same standard of living as, as...

Claudia Naraina: As us?

Nathan Hill: As other Chagossian people. Yeah. In...Whoever goes...

Claudia Naraina: They are not living here. They are living in Mauritius and Seychelles and nobody

Nathan Hill: Even they said they wanted the same standard of living as the UK citizens

[Multiple comments and background chatter (inaudible)]

Nathan Hill: (inaudible) the Chagossian community (inaudible) all have the same standard of living

Claudia Naraina: Not just higher than Mauritius and not just higher than (inaudible). That’s all, thank you. Bye now.

Male audience member 4 (older man): My question is: people who will go to Diego to work and live. My question is: I don’t work. My wife and I don’t work, so what will happen to us?

Female audience member: Because they’re already too old now.

Andrew Price: Yeah, okay

Nathan Hill: That’s a very good question, again, the government will have to decide on the makeup of people who go back.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: All the feasibility study is saying is basically there is people who want to go back

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: There are people who want to go back, there is no physical barriers to resettlement, these are the three options we’ve come up with, these are the costs. It’s up to the government to decide if they want resettlement to go ahead, how many people is going to go and resettle initially and who those people are going to be. We can’t decide that. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 8: My question is (inaudible) the houses that you propose to construct, what type of structure, what sort of material will you use for the houses?

Nathan Hill: They will be...you know

Andrew Price: I think it’s essentially, I think it’s kind of looking at...kind of indicative costs and indicative structures so the actual full specifications, I think are, I think it’s too soon. As (inaudible) said, the whole business kind of would, is a phased set of activities. So to decide whether the roof has plates or wood or you know

Nathan Hill: It wouldn’t be wooden huts

Rekha Narula: It can’t be

Andrew Price: No, no, no

Rekha Narula: It can be concrete

Nathan Hill: Houses (inaudible) not too dissimilar from here

Andrew Price: Sorry, no just a general point that people do want a modern lifestyle, not a...

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Andrew Price: But I think, and that, that view came out, I understand, during the earlier consultation: what, what you would you know expect and hope to get in terms of accommodation

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: Sorry, we’ve got time for one, maybe two more questions

Female audience member 9 [in Kreol]: So then the UK government will be responsible for sending the Chagossians from here to Chagos?

Nathan Hill: Yeah

Female audience member 9 [in Kreol]: Will they get in pounds or dollars?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: It’s too far down the line, we don’t know
[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 9 [in Kreol]: My last question is: the Chagossian community from the UK, the ones in Mauritius, the ones in the Seychelles, will we get the same rights as one another? That’s my question.

Nathan Hill: That’s the assumption that we’re making. I can’t imagine they wouldn’t. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Female audience member 9 [in Kreol]: Thank you very much for everything.

Andrew Price: Thank you

Female audience member 9 [in Kreol]: I’m very appreciative for that

Andrew Price: We will convey the comments as well as the specific questions

Rekha Narula: One last, last one

Female audience member 10 [in Kreol]: This is for KPMG to know: as far, as long as we don’t get satisfaction as far as our battle and our fight is concerned, we will still keep on battling and battling. 

Nathan Hill: I’m sure you will.

Female audience member 10 [in Kreol]: It will be our war

Nathan Hill: Thank you

Female audience member 11: After the decision, after the government decision, will we have our something to say if we are not agree with something?

Nathan Hill: Sorry I can’t quite hear you

Female audience member 11: After the report, if we are not agree with something, will we be able to say something or?

Nathan Hill: After our report?

Female audience member 11: Yeah, after the government decision

Nathan Hill: We are (inaudible) this report, the government will have to make a decision about how to negotiate with you, or the next government after that, so sorry not really great (inaudible)

Female audience member 11: It’s alright, just want to know if we have something to say. Yeah, that’s all, yeah yeah. 

Nathan Hill: Thank you, thank you.
[Meeting closes]

-END OF TRANSCRIPT-