KPMG RESETTLEMENT FEASIBILITY STUDY PRE-CONSULTATION MEETING
Public Meeting
9:00-11:30, 04/07/2014
Friends House, London, UK

Speakers/Organisers:
Matthew Boyle, KPMG London, Lead for the study
Nancy Laatunen, KPMG resettlement consultant

Interpreter: 
Rekha Narula

Audience members:
5 Chagossians from Diego Garcia/Seychelles, including:
Roch Evenor, Chagos Seychelles Committee UK
Bernadette Dugasse, Chagos Seychelles Committee UK
Anthony Bandon
Michael Vidot
Beatrice Pompee

Other participants:
Audrey Blancart, ZSL Connect Chagos
Rebecca Rotter, University of Edinburgh
Tessa Mayes, Writer/Film director
Cameraman (with Tessa Mayes)

Transcript of proceedings

Matthew Boyle: I think we’re now okay to start. First of all thank you very much indeed for coming. It’s good to see you here. We’re very happy to have you with us today. My name is Matthew, Matthew Boyle. I work for KPMG and I’m leading the team which is undertaking the resettlement feasibility study for the Chagos islands. Um, I’m joined by my colleague today, Nancy, Nancy Laatunen, and also by Rekha who is our interpreter. But as a very first question just, just to see and to, to understand logistics. Is it useful? Do, do you need Rehka for interpretation this morning?

Roch Evenor: Ah yes.

[Rekha Narula introduces herself, translates Matthew Boyle’s introduction into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Okay, um, I’ll give a brief introduction to myself and then I’ll ask Nancy to do the same. I am an economist by background. I studied at Oxford and the LSE before starting work in the international field as a consultant. Um, I’m the leader of the team, um, but I should also say that there are other members of our team as well who unfortunately can't be here today, and I will talk a little bit about them when we introduce the, the study and the overall approach that we’re taking. Nancy if you want also to introduce herself. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Bonjour tout le monde, my name is Nancy Laatunen and I’m from Montreal, Canada. I’m a resettlement specialist, currently I’m working in about a half a dozen countries. I’m very excited to be here this morning. We’ve had meetings, as Matt will probably share with you shortly, in Mauritius, Seychelles and in Crawley, um, and ah, ah, we are running through a short presentation as well as, ah, an open-ended discussion and I look forward to your feedback this morning. Merci tout le monde.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So there are a number of things that we want to, to, to do this morning with you. First of all, um, I’ll introduce and talk a little bit about the scope of study, the activities that we’re undertaking and our overall plans. I’ll tell you a little bit about the team and the work that we’ve been doing to date. Um, and then I’ll hand over to Nancy who, as she said, will talk a little bit about the, the principles we’re following in doing this work, um, what makes a good resettlement analysis, um, and we’ll then lead an open discussion, giving you the opportunity to share your own thoughts and views on how resettlement might happen, um, and then we’ll talk a little bit about the next stage in the process. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So KPMG has been asked by the Foreign Office to undertake this resettlement feasibility study. Ah, we began work in April this year and the timeline will take us through until January of 2015 which is when we will submit our final report to the Foreign Office, and the feasibility study itself is designed to look at every aspect of possible resettlement: looking at the infrastructure requirements, the economics and the, the costs of resettlement, the kind of investment required, and the social issues that need to be considered alongside that. So we have a broad team with several members, all of whom are very highly capable people. Nancy obviously has introduced herself, but there are other members of team too.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: The other members of the team include our infrastructure specialist whose name is Yusaf Samiullah, who used to be a very senior figure here in the UK Department for International Development on infrastructure practice. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Our team also includes an economist whose name is Malcolm Summerfield, who has spent more than twenty years looking at economic development in small island situations

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: and we also have an environmental specialist whose name is Andrew Price, who is a professor at the University of Warwick. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And another member of the team who provides support to me and is an economist by background called Nathan Hill. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And although they can’t be here today we certainly hope that as this study progresses you will have a chance to meet with them and talk to them about the work that they’re doing as part of this study. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So that’s the team. And we began work in April this year and spent April and May familiarising ourselves with your situation, understanding some of the work that has been done in years past, and we also undertook a very brief visit in May to the Chagos islands themselves. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So we’re now starting to get a better understanding of the kinds of challenges and the physical issues that resettlement might have to address. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But alongside that we realise that one of the really important things we need to do is to talk to and engage with Chagossian community.  

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And as Nancy said we’ve started to do that already with consultations in Mauritius and the Seychelles, and here in the UK in Crawley as well.  

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And that’s been very interesting and very valuable for us and we’ve seen more than 300 people already I think. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And for us this is the first opportunity to introduce ourselves to you, to get to know you, and certainly we hope that over the coming months the conversation will continue between us. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And we’re very keen to get your views on what resettlement might look like, and we feel that this is really important and really significant because it’s the first time that a team of consultants doing this kind of work have had an opportunity to, have been, er, given permission by the Foreign Office to speak to you directly. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And certainly because we’re here today we are very happy to answer any questions that you may have about the process. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But before we do that I will pass the meeting over to my colleague Nancy and she will then take you through the next part of the meeting.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Thanks, gracias. Again good morning everyone. You can tell with my accent that I’m not British but um, and please feel free to stop me during one of the slides or if you want to ask me questions at the end of the slides. There are eight slides so it’s a fairly short introductory presentation. The first slide is about some of the principles and they’re not, there’s a long, long list but I’ve just put up a few of the most important international principles, these are followed by most of the international donor projects and the international financial institutions especially. These are the guidelines that we have to use when we’re doing relocation, resettlement, on a large scale, a small scale, you know it could be 500,000 people, it could be 500 people, it could be major land issues, it could be relocation of a large community because of something like a tsunami in Indonesia where I was working on, or it could be smaller issues, a more corridor project or relocation, work that we had to do for example in Bosnia, after war. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So the first point is very important. It’s when we don’t want to increase, I mean resettlement should never increase poverty of vulnerable people. So if you have an income level or a way of life, a standard of living that is here, you don’t want Matt’s grandmother to go down. Matt’s grandmother should stay the same or go up. That is the fundamental principle of international resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So this comes into point number two, is this is very much related to infrastructure services. Okay so if someone in Zambia has to be moved back to Zimbabwe because there’s quite a bit of cross-border relocation going on, we’ve gotta make sure that if they have running water, safe potable water, and they have sanitation, and they have a feeder road - that they have that same situation when they’re being relocated.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So when we’re talking about, when Matt was talking about the options of resettlement for BIOT we also have to consider some of the infrastructure items. So in one of the meetings yesterday in Crawley, the issue let’s say of the Tube came up. Now there would be no infrastructure, economic and feasible justification to have a Metro or a Tube and it would be something similar that you have here, but you wouldn’t have it in the Chagos because it just doesn’t warrant that infrastructure investment. Wharfs, jetties, ports, that’s a different story, that would be something that we would have to look at. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: About obviously we’re talking very much about social services. We all have particular passions. I'm very passionate about water when I work in Africa but also very much on education so we’re very clearly looking at health, education, social services, as we move forward. And that obviously has to align itself and map out with population and demographics. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And again, this also takes into account the issue of income and employment, and I’ll talk a little bit about that later in another slide but if you’re going from salaried employment to no employment when you’re relocating, I often have to take a look at a short term subsidy package, an employment creation scheme, or retraining, and these are part of international resettlement normal standard procedures.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And finally the last bullet on this slide is that resettlement planning should encourage consultation. And this is just to remind you what Matt said earlier, that this was the first project, first feasibility study that the British Foreign Office has encouraged two-way dialogue, meaningful participation with the Chagossian community. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Rekha Narula: The interpreter would just like to back on one point which she missed out on at the end of the health and education services section

[Rekha Narula continues to translate into Kreol]

Rekha Narula: Thank you.

Nancy Laatunen: No problem. There are many…there’s pages, there’s manuals on international resettlement that form the basis of good practice, good international practice. I’ve just listed two that for me are very important and something that I try to get relevant socio-economic data on, and it gives me a picture of a community in change. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So you have different categories of vulnerability that it is my job to pay very close attention to when I’m doing either relocation schemes, across borders or into, they could be countries that have been ravaged by either war or climate issues, that we have to pay very close attention to. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So for instance a couple of them just really pop out to mind for me in the consultations that we have had, especially in Mauritius and even in the last couple of days in Crawley. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: The first one is the issue of female-headed households. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We have had, we have met with quite a few widows, elderly widows, both in Mauritius and in Crawley.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Some of them have slight mobility issues – they’re using canes or mobility devices. These are elderly people and they have, many of them have fractured families, where some of the families are living in Mauritius, there are visa issues, I think you all know the stories very well. But they are definitely a group that for me, you know, there is a special case of vulnerability we would have to pay very close attention to. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Another group that has come to light is under Roman 5, this is the elderly households with no means of support and in this case I would qualify it with reduced or very limited means of support – economic support. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So for me one important aspect of meaningful community consultation dialogue is when you hear the same stories in one country or in one community meeting again and again and then again in private consultations with them after, and this happened with the issue of pensions. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So one of those common threads that was very interesting in the last ten days has been the issue of pensions with men – men – that have worked in the copra sector and some of them had worked for 5 – most of them it seemed to have been for 10 to 25 - years. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And then we heard again yesterday that some of them had received no credit for that, but their pension was perhaps the last 3 to 10 years we were hearing yesterday, and that they had no work credit, pension credit for 20 to 25 years of very hard physical work as well. So this was a common theme running throughout. So again this lowers someone’s income and is again - if and when potential relocation happens this would be a group that I would have to keep an eye on just to make sure, follow the rule, that they stay the same and don’t go down, so we wouldn’t want any relocation to make, to inhibit or to decrease their standard of living.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: The next slide talks about some of the mitigation measures to minimise the risk and to reduce any potential adverse effects on vulnerable - and in the general population – on future possible resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We've heard some amazing stories – and this is again, it’s not just eye-opening for the consultants but it’s also very positive the fact that there are so many young people that want to go home

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: but they did talk to me privately about some re-training packages and very importantly some upgrading and some certification. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And this cut across gender lines. This is often what I have to do. I’m wearing a gender lens when I’m doing this work. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So what impresses the consultants is we have an excellent amount of skilled Chagossians that are interested in return but some of them have candidly said ‘we have these qualifications but we don’t have a certification, let’s say for an electrician’.  

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: so one thing that I often do is – when I’m actually having to prepare a formal resettlement plan – is that I look at redeployment, I look at training packages, and often technical vocational opportunities. And it’s my job to cost that out and looking at what will fit in best with that type of project. So these are some of the things that we’re going to have to consider as we prepare the options. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So why participate with the communities? It’s a- communication is a two-way feedback process so we definitely need your ideas, your opinions, certainly the ‘where’, um, we’ve been talking about- to communities about where they would like to go to resettle, um, and also some of the urgent needs that they might have, their priorities for infrastructure. So the data needed is this type of meeting. This is our smallest meeting. We’ve had very well attended meetings. Small is good by the way because [Laughs] we can get a lot of good information. It’s also- I, when I have a focus group, I’d like to see diversification, meaning cutting across age lines. I’d like to see a good mix of gender and- so that we can have a good exchange.  And also, as Matt mentioned, this is the first round. We call them pre-consultation meetings. Matt has formally introduced what KPMG is doing on this project for the next few months and I’m sure you’d like to meet with some of my other colleagues that are responsible for some of the technical aspects like environment, like economics. But again, some of the issues that have already been raised in some of the formal consultations, and in the informal, we’ve already been keeping a document list as well, because these are things that are inside our mandate, our terms of reference, and some of them are outside, and that comes along with this project. And so it’s for the team to solve this before we get to round two of consultations. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Oh and I’ve already talked a little bit about this. This is the second last slide and this is the idea of, we have to- we usually pay very close attention to income stability or income restoration when we do either relocation or resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So the purpose of income restoration is we may have to institute or at least cost and think about some special measures for those vulnerable households – if they relocated – that I talked to you about before. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So it depends on the country, it depends on the situation, but we usually use a poverty index and based on the poverty index if the family is below it then we have a package of benefits. It could be a combination of a housing rental subsidy, depending on how housing works out on this project, but it also could be an income substitute until they get employment. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And employment income restoration is very much something that we pay close attention to about employment. So when we have higher unemployment because of relocation then we have to take a look at an employment package for the short term but then also look at employment diversification. It could be vanilla production. It may not be coconut production. It could be that from being an electrician in Crawley to going back to fishing. But there could be some income disturbances during that time. So then we take a look at that by household. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So sometimes we need to cost different training packages or we have the equivalent of a cash income support and it could be from 6 months to one year. It just depends on the formula that’s agreed to in a relocation project. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So this is just the last slide that we’re going to have some focus group questions, some more structured questions, but that um, before we get into that, certainly any questions on the slides you have I’m happy to take. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And I just – before the question – I just wanted to mention again that these are standard resettlement slides, standard resettlement procedures - and by the way this is a very short version of what I have to go through if I’m moving ten thousand people or fifty thousand people - but the principles are fundamentally the same. You know the rule that we don’t want to make anyone poor or less disadvantaged when you relocate people. So the case for BIOT is not fitting into any standard international box but the principles remain the same: you know how could you send someone from Crawley to an uninhabited island without infrastructure etcetera? So that’s part of my role, is to make sure that some of the social services and that there’s an equity in what people have in Mauritius if (they were in the UK?).

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol, clarifies the role of Rekha Narula, Matthew Boyle and Nancy Laatunen, then poses question; Rekha Narula translates into English]: How long will all of these meetings go on? 10, 15, 20, 30 years? Because these meetings, I keep on hearing that these meetings are happening. Because people just do want to go back to Chagos, certainly before they die, their last day on this earth. But how long will it be before they are returned and how long will these meetings go on for?

Nancy Laatunen: For these meetings – and then I’ll pass this to my colleague – for these meetings we're having consultations up through til the end of November. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And the part of KPMG is completed by the end of January 2015. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And when the report is prepared and submitted to government then those are government decisions and I cannot estimate the timing of the British government (inaudible).

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: But as a rough estimate, 10 to 15 years, will it take?

Nancy Laatunen: I can't say as a consultant on that. Je espère that it’s much less.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: You're going to hand it in, you’re going to hand and finish in January and then in May there will be a general election, elections. So one aspect, one factor is that if this government then just doesn’t want to take that into consideration. 

Matthew Boyle: Well as Nancy has said, we can't speak on behalf of the government but what our report will do is set out a series of options, a series of possible scenarios for what resettlement might look like

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And the decision of government will then be to either choose one of those options and proceed with resettlement, ah, but we can’t guarantee which option they will choose. We can’t guarantee that they will pick any of the options. But we would hope that because this report is being undertaken and because they have invested and spent money on us as a team of consultants, it means that they do have genuine intentions. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Is there anything for the British government where they will guarantee us anything, for us the people who were born on Chagos?

[Rekha Narula seeks clarification from Anthony Bandon]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So are they going to guarantee those of us indigenous people born on Chagos, are they going to guarantee us anything? 

Nancy Laatunen: What do you mean by guarantee?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Okay so like those who have been compensated, previous people from Chagos have been given compensation. 

Nancy Laatunen: Yeah, yeah

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: We, for example, have not got any of it. 

Nancy Laatunen: No

Matthew Boyle: We cannot– again, we cannot speak on behalf of the British government. All we can do is describe and tell you about our role, and as I said, this report will be for them to consider in January next year. We hope and we think that they have good faith and are serious about this process. They have been very, very keen for us to meet and talk with you face to face, but we cannot make any guarantee on their behalf. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Rekha Narula [to Matthew Boyle]: Sorry, the interpreter would just ask you to repeat they are very keen to meet with you, with the community

Matthew Boyle: The Foreign Office have encouraged us, which is something that hasn’t happened before. It didn’t happen with the 2002 feasibility study
[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: I mean yes, I mean they have encouraged you to come now - but they should have encouraged this from the start of the- this- from the start. They could have got our opinions then and then done the project from that point.

Matthew Boyle: Well we can’t speak about the earlier discussions before the study got underway, but I think certainly-

Roch Evenor: No [in Kreol. Rekha Narula and Roch Evenor confer; Rekha Narula translates into English] You should have come in from the beginning, at the start of this

Matthew Boyle: Well we needed a period-

Rekha Narula: You, KPMG, rather. 

Matthew Boyle: We needed a period of time to familiarise ourselves with the background and the literature, the earlier study work that had been done, before we could come to you to talk and understand exactly what your concerns and issues would be. And I think as Nancy said, this consultation process, this will carry through until November so there is, there is plenty of time I think for us to spend more time with you and to get your views and to make sure that they are heard as part of this process.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Roch Evenor [in Kreol. Rekha Narula and Roch Evenor confer; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So no, the gentleman asked, not the gentleman, the speaker meant (inaudible) but talking about this kind of project, because we the community know what problems we’ve had in the past and are still having, and yes, you know, we would have told you our problems from the outset because there’s a lot of questions that are being asked which make no sense for us within this project.

Matthew Boyle: Mm-hm

Bernadette Dugasse: My question is: as I was born on Diego Garcia, and what you said in Crawley that Diego Garcia is likely to be included. What other islands are under consideration?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: We've been told by the Foreign Office that as part of this process we are free to consider any of the islands for possible resettlement and that includes Diego Garcia. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But as part of this process what we want to do is to hear from you about what you think resettlement might look like and where you would want to go back to, and whether Diego Garcia or Salomon or Peros Banhos perhaps.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Well if I'm from Diego Garcia I would say Diego Garcia. I’ve heard about Peros Banhos but I, you know, for me I would say Diego Garcia.

[Matthew Boyle asks if Tessa Mayes can now pause the filming as the meeting is moving into discussion. She does so. Matthew Boyle suggests that Nancy Laatunen leads the discussion].

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: In the 25 to 30 years that they’ve been having these meetings, there’s never been a representative from the British government present. It’s always been independence, independent people. Why? So I mean they should send representatives because it’s been 25-30 years (inaudible). If they want proof they should send somebody from the government to attend these meetings because anything, they could say anything because (inaudible) they’ve been bribed to do whatever, so they should send somebody from government. 

Matthew Boyle: Well as part of our role we have been told by the Foreign Office that we should engage with you and meet with you directly and they want us to act as an independent team of consultants so that we form our own views based on what we hear from you.

Anthony Bandon: Yes. Which is the- which is this person in the Foreign Office who sent you for this meeting? What is the name of this person? 

Matthew Boyle: It’s- it’s- it’s the- the Overseas Territories department, is the department to which we report.

Anthony Bandon: So this group people don't have a name? Only a group of independent people or?

Matthew Boyle: There are several people within that team with whom we work

Anthony Bandon: What is their name?

Matthew Boyle: to whom we report.

Anthony Bandon: You don’t know the name of these people?

Matthew Boyle: I do know their name but for the purposes of these meetings we’ve been told- we’ve been encouraged to meet with you without them in the room so that we can hear you directly and talk to you and we don’t get influenced by the Foreign Office in any way. It’s to make sure that this process is seen as being independent and impartial.

Anthony Bandon: So that means that all these meetings have been done all this time is not important? Only this one is more important than all the other meeting that has been done before?

Matthew Boyle: Well we haven’t been involved in meetings until we started the consultation process in Mauritius last week, so for us, you know, this is a very important part of the process. But I can’t speak for what has gone before.

Roch Evenor [in Kreol. Rekha Narula and Roch Evenor confer; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So you have said Nancy about this sort of scale of keeping people at the same or higher but certainly not going down. The majority of indigenous Chagossians - that is those who were born on the islands - are elderly. There are those who are in Mauritius or England here working so how are you going to- or how is it going to be done so that their- all of these people, especially the elderly ones, their level remains the same? Because of course they are the majority people. How is it going to happen that their level of living, standard of living, will remain the same? [Rekha Narula asks Roch Evenor ‘is that your question?’ They confer in Kreol. Rekha Narula continues to translate into English] I mean they can’t not even stay the same but they would need even to be raised up at least a little bit.

Nancy Laatunen: Mm-hm

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So how would that happen, especially for the indigenous elderly population?

Nancy Laatunen: Um I think it all depends on how- how and when the phases and the stages of potential, possible, relocation happens. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We heard from some of the indigenous elderly that they didn't feel they were able to physically able to go, so it will depend on how many actually choose to go if they are allowed to return, how many choice to go, then we would have to take a look at the physical, the health needs, of those elderly of course.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So for example I am Roch, I was born in Chagos. Let’s say I can't return for medical reasons. What will happen to me then, in that situation?

Nancy Laatunen: Um at this stage it’s, you know, at that- preliminary work hasn’t even begun in that area. We are just focusing on trying to map out and figure out how many Chagossians want to return home and where they want to return home. That's sort of step one. For those that don’t want to return, or can’t return because of medical reasons, or there are definitely some members of the community for employment or life do not want to return. I think there will have to be something open to them especially as they’re a disadvantaged community but I can’t speak to that now. It’s just too early. We haven’t um, we haven’t come to any conclusions on that yet. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: But it’s not- even if we make suggestions on this issue in the report, and it could be for employment or for medical reasons of- there, you know, there is a group that’s (inaudible), the consultant can make suggestions and recommendations but it doesn’t mean that the British government will necessarily accept all of some or part of them. I also firmly believe personally - a personal opinion - that when you have a disadvantaged community, I don’t see why we can't we start work now, regardless of what the British government policy is. This is my own personal opinion. So if you have a disadvantaged community, and a vulnerable community, why can’t we have some scholarships in Mauritius? Why can’t we have some scholarships in agriculture in Seychelles? Why can’t we have some pharmacist training in Crawley? Why can’t we do this now? Why do we have to wait on policy decisions? I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I certainly would promote it in my piece of the project but again, that’s one person advocating inside and I don’t- won’t have any objections from my- my colleagues who are on the team, but these are also policy decisions for government.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Will there ever be- okay we've talked about the Chagossian community, there’s questions and answers and everything in meetings, but will there be a meeting about and for the people who were born on Diego Garcia and who have never received anything? Will there be a debate about that, do you know?

Nancy Laatunen [to Rekha Narula]: I need a point of clarification, Interpreter. 

Rekha Narula: Yes

Nancy Laatunen: Is this over past compensation issues?

[Rekha Narula seeks clarification from Anthony Bandon in Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So in Mauritius these people got compensation but the Seychelles-based people got nothing. The Mauritius-based people got piecemeal compensation but the Seychellois-based people got nothing, as the three here.

Bernadette Dugasse: No, all of us!

Anthony Bandon: All of us

Rekha Narula: Sorry

Nancy Laatunen: To answer that, and it’s (inaudible) and I apologise it’s not an answer you’re going to like. We are excluded from - not necessarily talking but - reviewing, analysing or presenting anything in our feasibility report on past historical compensation. Our hands are tied. We can’t- we don’t- we've been told not to talk at it or talk about it, as part of the study. We have other areas that we have to focus on. We are excluded from two or three aspects. One is nationality issues, but the other is historical compensation.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Roch Evenor poses question]

Rekha Narula: These two points have come up in Crawley, in Mauritius and Seychelles so as Roch said, you cannot ignore – KPMG, rather, cannot ignore this.

Nancy Laatunen: No but I can't answer (inaudible) government. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We don’t have the answer.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Two things. If I could say something? First of all, you're right we’ve heard the same issues in each location where we’ve met and talked with Chagossians.  And because it's a very consistent message it’s certainly something that we will be passing onto the Foreign Office so that they are aware that this is very important to you. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But there is one other particular point on the issue of nationality. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: We can’t- we are not responsible for policy decisions 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: however in thinking about what resettlement will look like we have to think about the practical sides: the numbers that would likely return to the Chagos islands. And it has to be realistic, it has to be based on the understanding that families in most cases will want to go back together so we will have to make some assumptions in our report about the nationality issues, if this is going to be a realistic proposition for resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So we will be telling the Foreign Office in our report that they will need to address those issues as part of this process.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We have heard cases of a mother who would not be able to resettle with her children. I mean we would not- we could not promote that so we would only be promoting family reunification. You know it’s the only way we would suggest it. And this means that we have crossed over into what the Foreign Office says ‘don’t touch’ because we have no choice. They are cross-cutting. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I want to come back to your question about historical compensation. I do so much work in many countries on historical compensation. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We have evidence of unfairness, we have evidence of injustice. Now, what I can say to you as a community is keep it on the top of your agenda. And I’m sure you are. But how we can report it is we can report it as a consistent theme that comes out in the community consultations. But it’s something that we can't spend a lot of time focusing on or analysing or making recommendations. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I mean I don’t- we’re not going to forget about it but we also have um, just this past week in Canada a very large indigenous community just got a major award from the Supreme Court of Canada and this Treaty was signed by Queen Victoria so they are still getting- and they have actually blocked one of the largest gas pipelines planned in the world so everybody is all confused right now in Canada. So they- they’ve had some amazing success this week. So you know, again, on past compensation issues, currency fluctuations, everything that goes around that, you know, keep going with the fight but again it’s not something- our focus is unfortunately just a little narrow but we will document it. You know, we are keeping in mind good practice principles and it may come into some of these practice principles that people’s income is lower because of this past historical injustice so I can- I can talk about it in that way in the report. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Could I just ask about potential or possible relocation. Do any of you have any concerns? If you were- if you were going home, what would be some of your most urgent requirements or your concerns or your worries? Do you have any?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Bernadette Dugasse: First of all for me it’s housing

Nancy Laatunen: Okay

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Roads, education, the construction of schools. We haven’t asked for a university but we have asked for some primary and secondary schooling. Clinic. Police station [Rekha Narula seeks clarification of what is meant by ‘community centre’ in Kreol]

Rekha Narula: So community centre, yes sorry I did hear

Nancy Laatunen: Et moi, je te parle Français

[Bernadette Dugasse speaks in Kreol about a clinic. Rekha Narula begins to translate but is cut off by Nancy Laatunen]

Nancy Laatunen [simultaneously]: Une autre église? Une église?

Roch Evenor: Une eglise

Rekha Narula: A police station was mentioned as well

Nancy Laatunen: I think I heard that. Um the issue of university came up (inaudible) maybe it was in Mauritius. They talked about distance education.

Roch Evenor: Yeah

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Several people say ‘yes’ in Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And I thought that was really quite good because then you have to set up the nodules and the technician for the wifi and the communication and distance ed – we were doing- I was doing a distance education project in a remote area of Nepal. It was very mountainous and so it actually provided good post-secondary, tertiary opportunities. So I wanted to mention that we’ve heard distance ed for universities.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula begins to translate into English] In terms of housing… [Rekha Narula is cut off by Roch Evenor. Rekha Narula then continues to translate] We are not asking- in terms of housing we are not asking for same level or quality of housing or type of housing rather as in England. We certainly don’t want the kind of housing that existed in the past.

Nancy Laatunen: Yes!

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: We want good, comfortable, environmentally-friendly housing.

Nancy Laatunen: I agree [Laughs].

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: What about de l’eau (inaudible) télévision?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Bernadette Dugasse: Water – dilo, wi - électricité

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: But with your baseline and your foundation being sort of good for the environment, not harmful to the environment.

Nancy Laatunen: Yep. Yep, okay. [Roch Evenor begins to speak but is cut off by Nancy Laatunen] On the issue of- [Several people speak at once] on the issue of environment, we’ve had- I’ve amazing stories to tell you from Mauritius and Seychelles but on the environment, do you have any concerns about returning to- about the environment if you returned?

Rekha Narula: Just one thing before I interpret what you said Nancy: shops

Nancy Laatunen: Oh shops make a difference!

[Rekha Narula begins to translate into Kreol but is cut off by Nancy Laatunen]

Nancy Laatunen: No one’s said shopping (inaudible) because it’s a lady [Claps] okay! [Laughs loudly]

Rekha Narula: No, no [Points to Roch Evenor] he said shops

Nancy Laatunen [To Roch Evenor]: Oh you said shops, okay! [Laughs] 

[Rekha Narula explains what each individual said (inaudible)] 

Nancy Laatunen: No one was mentioning that before 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Anthony Bandon begins to speak in Kreol about medical facilities but is cut off by Nancy Laatunen cackling loudly]

Rekha Narula [Referring to Bernadette Dugasse]: This lady said to me, when she was talking about a hospital or a clinic, she said ‘we don’t want anything fancy. Just a good, well-stocked hospital’ and as you said she wants a doctor, she wants a nurse, she wants (inaudible), but she forgets the shops as well.

[Rekha Narula addresses the audience in Kreol. Anthony Bandon responds in Kreol. Rekha Narula confers]

Rekha Narula: Okay, this is actually going back to health services.

Nancy Laatunen: Okay, yep

Rekha Narula [Referring to Anthony Bandon]: This gentleman will be 54 in 2 months’ time and he’s diabetic–

Nancy Laatunen [Simultaneously, to Anthony Bandon]: Oh you’re looking good. 

Rekha Narula: Yeah he’s going–

Nancy Laatunen [Laughs]: I’m 55. We’re age-mates [Laughter]

Anthony Bandon: No grey hair! [Laughter]

Nancy Laatunen: I have grey hair [Laughter] This is not– this is colouring. 

Rekha Narula [Referring to Anthony Bandon]: And so he’s asking–  this gentleman said ‘I am diabetic so will there be facilities for me and people like me and?’

Nancy Laatunen: C’est une bonne question. We had this at other meetings and I was talking to them, they mentioned doctor, they mentioned nurse and I said ‘no one is mentioning a pharmacist’ and this is something that I think we should also look about trying to make sure that if we don’t have a pharmacist in the community, that, you know we- there is programmes now that- that- you have a pharmacist’s assistant. It is not quite as highly trained but a different certification. And so I was looking at that within the community if we can get a pharmacist. So clearly it’s doctor, nurse, and the pharmacist. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And I think what’s interesting about some of these professions, like in the health profession, I've been introduced to Chagossian nurses. So we have – and they’re interested in doing back. Obviously we’re prioritising any employment on resettlement with the indigenous community, the local community. So- but if we have gaps, which we will, then we have to think about how do we fill those gaps, whether it’s in health or education, or agriculture let’s say.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I just have a question. If you're thinking about the possibility – not in 20 years, before you’re 55 – of going home, where, where is your first choice of going home?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Diego Garcia. Within one year, Diego Garcia. That was where I was born.

Nancy Laatunen: That makes sense, yeah.

Bernadette Dugasse: Diego Garcia

Michael Vidot: Mwa osi, Diego Garcia

[Rekha Narula asks the audience in Kreol whether Diego Garcia is everyone’s answer. They confirm that it is. Anthony Bandon speaks in Kreol, Rekha Narula responds, not translated]

Bernadette Dugasse: Mostly those that were sent to Seychelles were from Diego Garcia.

Rekha Narula: Diego Garcia, yeah. And the Mauritians are mainly Salomon.

[Rekha Narula and Anthony Bandon converse in Kreol]

Rekha Narula: And those that are here are mainly Diego Garcia born

[Rekha Narula and Anthony Bandon continue to converse in Kreol] 

Rekha Narula: Oh however in Crawley there is a mixture

Nancy Laatunen: Crawley’s mixed

Rekha Narula: on Diego and Salomon

Nancy Laatunen: Some moved. Some were born in Diego and then moved and then

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Going back to your environment question. 

Nancy Laatunen: Yes

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Seychelles is a very good model for environmental factors. Half the- the model for the Seychelles, why it’s a good one is where half the country has been developed in whatever way and the other half has been remitted for conservation purposes.

[Michael Vidot makes statement in Kreol]

Rekha Narula: So this gentleman here [asks for Michael Vidot’s name] Michael, at the end here, he would like a good port infrastructure. 

Nancy Laatunen: Oh okay, merci

Rekha Narula: But not just for fisher 

Nancy Laatunen: (inaudible) bateau aussi? 

Rekha Narula: Yes, goods, for cargo ships 

Nancy Laatunen: Okay

Rekha Narula: Ware–  and to have warehouses by the port or in the port where they can store the goods

Nancy Laatunen: So this is like an adjacent container terminal. 

Rekha Narula: Yes. Because he himself has experience of working with cargo and that kind of area.

Nancy Laatunen: Moi aussi [Laughs] I’m a port (inaudible), I do port (inaudible). Okay. 

Rekha Narula: And not necessarily container, but yes it would be like a container terminal but also warehouses to store, I don’t know sacks of grain for example. 

Michael Vidot: For the food and…you know

Nancy Laatunen: Yep

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Will there been any obstacles for us living alongside the military in Diego Garcia? Should we go back? Let us say we go back.

Matthew Boyle: That’s–  the question of resettling on Diego Garcia. It has been discussed and there has been an exchange between the Foreign Office and the US government. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: We’ve been asked this several times so I’m getting quite experienced at responding. The US government has said that they have no objection to the study proceeding and to Diego Garcia being considered as a site for resettlement. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But. But they are obviously thinking about security issues and that’s to be expected.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So what they have said is that if we include Diego Garcia in our report as a possible option we will have to try and cost and build in all the housing, the security services, the education and health separate from the US facility. It will have to be separate.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: The one thing that they will consider is the use of the airstrip for transport to the islands. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So we can consider Diego Garcia in our report as a possible option. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: I have heard during meetings that the Americans and the British have an agreement of 150 years. So if we go back, how are we going to be living with these military person? Yeah because the military…[Rekha Narula and Anthony Bandon confer in Kreol] 

Rekha Narula [Referring to Anthony Bandon]: Yes that’s what he said. Yeah, he said that in Mauritius, they’ve been- he said that people have been saying 150 years. 

Nancy Laatunen: I’ve heard 50.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Rekha Narula: But anyway, he said because they are very apprehensive of having the (inaudible) living next to them 

Nancy Laatunen: Oh I think yeah

Matthew Boyle: I think we have heard different timescales

Anthony Bandon: I have noticed three or four, each meeting I have been attending in Mauritius and here in the UK, there is different kind of issue (inaudible) 50 year, 20 year, 150 year so 150 years is about three generation so, you know what I mean [Laughs]

Matthew Boyle: I think that the agreement between the US and the UK government is due for renegotiation in 2016. 

Nancy Laatunen: That is what I’ve heard

Matthew Boyle: In 2 years’ time

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon: In 2 years’ time

Matthew Boyle: I don’t know how long it would last for but I can try and find out

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But you’re right. There will have to be another discussion between the US and the UK government if we recommend Diego Garcia. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: The Americans will want reassurance about the security issues and what resettlement would look like. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English. Michael Vidot speaks simultaneously]: We (inaudible) answer (inaudible). There’s meetings today, meetings tomorrow, meetings whenever and people are getting older all the time. 

Bernadette Dugasse: Okay I’ve got a question for my son who went visited with me 4 years back. What sort of connectivity and transition are you considering?

[Silence]

Rekha Narula: Connectivity. What sort of connectivity and transition are you considering?

[Discussion about what is meant by connectivity]

Nancy Laatunen: Connectivity. Oh. For myself? Um, okay no. Er connectivity I would think the internet. 

Anthony Bandon: I think that everything (inaudible)

Matthew Boyle: On Diego Garcia you can use email

Anthony Bandon: Yes there is email

Matthew Boyle: you have the basic communications there that you would expect in the UK. 

Tessa Mayes [To Bernadette Dugasse]: What did you say? Connectivity and?

Bernadette Dugasse: Transition

[Several people say ‘transition’, unclear of the intended meaning]

Nancy Laatunen: Okay so in resettlement language, jargon, slang we often use what we call a transition allowance. And sometimes I budget a transition allowance like I talked about for employment or income, so it’s like if someone is relocated there would be a startup cost, so maybe that's what he means by transition. I don’t know. Connectivity we would be thinking about good internet, television, telephone. What else do we want?

Matthew Boyle: All the kind of things, yeah, that you would get here

Nancy Laatunen: Transition I would be thinking is there would have to be a transition programme especially for those that are employed (inaudible) 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: The other thing I wanted to ask about was if you think in the 5 year phase, 10 year phase, so let us be optimistic and positive that some relocation strikes up, what would you be thinking of doing in 5 years, 10 years? What would be the types of employment that you would see yourself working in?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: (inaudible) For example, I can see that Michael has experience in port. This is a really good match. This is a good skills match so, you know, you’re maybe thinking of returning. I’d like to retire in 5 years’ time. So, you know just put your thinking caps on about what kinds of employment would be on the island, you know, agriculture, fishing. [To Anthony Bandon] Sir.

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So for me, i.e. this gentleman, because the Americans are there and have been there for a long time, we are thinking maybe we will work with the Americans, for the Americans, some kind of development of the island, or the islands rather. 

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So there’s things like a settlement, you know working, what Roch said, whatever I say has the environment and the protection of the environment as its basis, as its foundation, but you know working on roads, so that kind of roadwork infrastructure, also fishing, getting international fishing permits. 

Nancy Laatunen: Okay

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Tourism, developing tourism. 

Nancy Laatunen: Tourism has come up a lot at the meetings. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Okay so cruise ships or maybe not so much the cruise ships initially but also bato plesyer, like um, well they call them pleasure boats do they not, in English? 

Unidentified: yachts

Rekha Narula: So yachts (inaudible) and maybe cruise ships afterwards.
  
Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So sort of the yachting community, international fishing permits, working on the roadways, working on outside the- or with the- for the Americans, that will give us an initial revenue as the development is happening. And also the opportunity to use the base, that will come in. 

[Roch Evenor and Bernadette Dugasse correct Rekha Narula’s translation]

Rekha Narula: Oh, rent. Oh [Clarifies meaning with Roch Evenor and Bernadette Dugasse]. And charge the Americans for rent.

Bernadette Dugasse: It’s our island, not them, not theirs.

Nancy Laatunen: This is actually- it’s the first time someone’s mentioned it. I can tell you that in Mauritius and Seychelles no one- no one mentioned an airport. No one said anything. But Crawley we heard for the première fois airport. But you were the first one that says it and I mean I was waiting for someone to say it but no-one has said it so I'm glad you said it.

Rekha Narula: Charge the Americans for the base.

Nancy Laatunen: I mean no one has- no one has said it. Some things we have- you know we have a- as I said earlier a consistent- we have some of the same comments that come up in meetings and then we always have some new ones. But this- the rent one is new. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Michael Vidot poses question in Kreol. Rekha Narula seeks clarification]

Rekha Narula: What Michael has just said, he said [Clarifies whether he has a son] he has a son and as he said, as you all said you don’t know how long this might take to be resettled. Let’s say something happens to me, Michael, and I can’t go. Could my son go in my place? Not that I don’t want to go but should I not be able–

Nancy Laatunen: No, no, but I mean, but there will be people that won’t be able to go. We talked about this yesterday in Crawley and it came up with several people, that they can’t all, that they can’t go at the same time. Some could go tomorrow, some it may take them 6 months or one year. They were asking me how long does, to prepare a proper resettlement plan with costs etcetera, how long does international resettlement work? And I said it’s anywhere from 12 months to 2 years. You know again it varies. Once there’s a policy decision it would depend on the numbers because it wouldn’t be that the whole community in Mauritius is going at once. They don’t all want to go at once. Um, again my own personal philosophy is this is, you know I promote family reunification on this project so I don’t want a mother to be separated from her children, so why, to me, wouldn't your son be supported to go? Now again, this will all be part of the government policy. You can only make suggestions. I am not–  [To Michael Vidot] how old is your son?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Michael Vidot [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: 23 years old

Nancy Laatunen: Oh that’s okay. I mean you know if you were saying he was a baby or something

Michael Vidot: No, no [Laughs]

Nancy Laatunen: But um, no, no that’s why I check but (inaudible) unaccompanied minors 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I would also like to add that, just, I’m just thinking out loud here. If for instance, if we had you know a limited resettlement initially, if this goes through, if um, policy and things move, and let's say hypothetically your son goes, I would still like to make sure, I don't want people that can't go in the first or second tranches or waves or resettlement, I don’t want them to be restricted from you going let’s say in 5 years’ time. Regardless of, I don’t to talk for a second third generation who was born. I want people to be- have a right to return when they want to in due course. Now for planning reasons you’re not going to be able to have ten thousand people get on two boats but I still don’t want any obstacles for you potentially returning in 5 years. I can only suggest some recommendations and if they did it properly, that’s what they would do. But you know, we have a room full of cynical, disappointed people and so I’m saying this is my own personal opinion, I don’t want any gatekeeping, anyone obstructing other people from going back when it’s convenient for them. And let’s say madam can’t go back now because  she has to finish up something for 2 years. Oh well, she can’t go back now for 5 because she couldn’t go in 2. Just the way the flights are very (inaudible) to return. I don’t want to hear that and see that in a future scheme but again, it's not my call. This is just my own words of wisdom to you. And I will make sure in my section that it’s noted like that in the report, but you know.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Just (inaudible) two more questions then Matt will close but certainly we will stay here if you have other points that you would like to talk to us about. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Given that we have people who have, we have the labour in our community to build houses from bottom up, you know from start to finish, we would like the opportunity when we go back to have people from the Chagossian community to get those jobs, and those kinds of jobs.

Nancy Laatunen: Um madam, I can't agree with you more. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We have heard this in many of the community meetings that we have qualified masons, qualified builders, electricians, so I think we have a very, very interesting housing potential that can also be a good employer.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Une question?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: In Crawley you would have heard a lot from – and there are – a lot of children of the first generation Chagossians, who will say ‘we want this, we want that, we want (inaudible) when we go back’ and I don’t know – the question asker – don’t know you know if they’re serious or to what extent they’re serious. We have not really been asked for opinion up to now and we are the first generation, our opinion, our ideas, are the ones, you know, we are serious, we are serious about what we want because we are the first generation.

Nancy Laatunen: I– I um– not just in Crawely but I was– I don’t want to use the word surprised but I was…pleasantly pleased at the number of second and third generation that were apparently very, very enthusiastic to return home. It took me a little bit by surprise. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Diego Garcia is already, shall we say well-established, there is already an infrastructure there. It would be easier to send those who want to go back to go back to Diego Garcia, whereas on Salomon and Peros Banhos there is still quite a very bit of work to

Nancy Laatunen: Construction, (inaudible)

Anthony Bandon: I was there in 2006. It’s a wild, wild environment [Laughs]

Bernadette Dugasse: My question: have you been on the visit trip?

Matthew Boyle: Yes, I was part of the trip in May.

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: What is your impression? Is it feasible? Is it doable? What is the impression of your visit?

Nancy Laatunen: I wasn’t on the trip [Referring to Matthew Boyle] He was. I was working in in Myanmar in a conflict state, so...

Matthew Boyle: I was quite struck by some of the outer islands – Peros Banhos and Salomon – where as you say sir, there is really nothing left to talk about [Anthony Bandon laughs]

Nancy Laatunen: Rien, rien. 

Anthony Bandon: Only one church

[Several people speak simultaneously]

Matthew Boyle: Yes and one or two ruins of buildings. The old shop you could still see the (inaudible)

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But what that means is that there is a big job to do. A big job to do. 
Bernadette Dugasse: If it’s a big job we can do

Matthew Boyle: But that’s- that’s- it’s good that we know that now. That’s something that we can talk about in our report. But I don’t think that means that it’s impossible. It’s just a big job.

Nancy Laatunen: It also means that things can be fresh. New construction. 

Matthew Boyle: Starting anew is a good thing. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: A coconut palm is growing inside the church

[Nancy Laatunen cackles. Unidentified woman says ‘keep it’. Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Several people laugh]

Matthew Boyle: Okay, um, should I?

Nancy Laatunen: I will just invite my colleague to close and we’ll certainly be around for a few minutes if people 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Can we ask for some coffee please? [Anthony Bandon corrects Rekha Narula’s translation] No, no, a kettle [There is a table with water jugs, tea bags and cups but no kettle].

Rebecca Rotter: It’s not- it’s not part of the- 

Rekha Narula: There is no kettle, no there is no kettle.

Rebecca Rotter: It’s not part of the order. They said it was just water that was booked. 

[Discussion about the refreshments]

Nancy Laatunen: Well sometimes small is beautiful ladies and gentlemen. Anyway, bonjour a tout, merci a tout de monde for attending this morning. And as I said in one of the opening slides that these consultations, informal and formal, will proceed, some of them with smaller working groups that we’re going to meet up until the end of November. And despite your experience and cynicism, hold the faith for a little while longer because at least in this report you are going to see options that under each box will have Chagossian opinion from these stakeholder consultations. This I can promise you. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: We are not a little cynical. We are very cynical

Nancy Laatunen: I know, I know

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So we are not a little cynical, we are very cynical because every time we have these meetings we are told ‘you’ll go back in two years, you’ll go back in three years’, they raise our hopes and then they just dash them, you know like a bag of rice is thrown on the ground and then they just dash them.

Matthew Boyle: We understand and we’ve heard that said by many people and we want to try and reassure you that certainly our team is undertaking this in good faith and we will do everything that we can as far as our report to make sure that the government takes what we say in the report very seriously. We will do everything that we can. We hope that you are willing to trust us because we think it’s a good opportunity. We think it’s- it is a break from the earlier feasibility study because we’re here reaching out to you and we hope (inaudible).

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: This new, this government that’s been in since 2010, they’ve not heard, we’ve not heard anything in the papers. I’ve scanned the papers about the Chagossian and about the Chagossian community [Anthony Bandon adds in English ‘4 years now!’]

Rekha Narula: Yeah, 4 years

Anthony Bandon: The new government, nothing about Chagossian people. They talk about everything in the world (inaudible)

Rebecca Rotter: Could you just give a bit of detail about how you intend to move forward with the follow-up activity?

Matthew Boyle: Yes, sure, that’s what I was going to do by way of conclusions. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: To explain, first of all, Nancy and I will be in Manchester tomorrow which is our next large meeting to meet the community in Manchester, and there will be a similar conversation to the one we had today. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But what we want to do once that is behind us is, as Nancy suggested, is to try and start to explore with you, in a little bit more detail exactly what resettlement might look like, and that will probably be in a series of smaller community meetings. The meetings we’ve had so far have been quite large ones and we’ve been impressed at the number of people who’ve turned out for us. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And during those meetings we expect that other members of the team will start to get involved too, and it will be the opportunity for you to ask them questions about their parts in the study and also to start thinking about each of those possible options in a little bit more detail - what do we want those options to look like? 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So that when we get to November and the team goes away to write its draft report we have your input and we have your feedback. And that report, the draft that we produce, will be available in December of this year and it will be circulated to all parties so that everyone has the opportunity to look at what we’re, what we’re recommending, what we’re proposing to the British government. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So that means that in January when we finalise the report, when it’s put forward to the Foreign Office, it will incorporate our own view of the situation and what we think needs to happen, but it will also draw on the feedback which you give us. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But throughout the remaining months of the study we are very, very happy to come and talk to you at any time you want to. I’m happy to give out our details so that if you have a question along the way or you’re just interested to have an informal conversation or you want to know what the team is doing, you are welcome to talk to us directly and we will be happy to see you. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So thank you very much indeed for coming today. It’s been great to see you. 

Nancy Laatunen [Speaking over Matthew]: And cheer for Canada at Wimbledon tomorrow for the first time ever.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I’m not watching it. I’m in Manchester. 

Anthony Bandon: Wimbledon? Tennis?

Nancy Laatunen: Yes. Canada, tomorrow!

Anthony Bandon: Which, which player?

Nancy Laatunen: Genie Bouchard from Montreal

Anthony Bandon: Montreal?

Nancy Laatunen: Tomorrow, first time ever. And I’m in Manchester

[Several people speak at once, conversation about tennis continues]

Rekha Narula: Just one thing to say.

Roch Evenor [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So on one hand I’m happy that KPMG has come here to listen to what the Chagossians in London have to say, but we need more discussion with you because we feel that it wasn’t done at the start very professionally. That is, we should have been brought in from the beginning and not now in this middle phase. [Nancy Laatunen speaks quietly to Matthew Boyle] So that being said about the meetings, all discussion and consultation is we hope that, we know that you cannot discuss compensation and nationality but if you would please in your report highlight that factor for us as it’s important for us as a [Roch Evenor adds in English ‘It’s a big problem’], yeah, really bring that to the fore because in your report because it is an important- they are two important factors for the Chagossian community. And also we- I, Roch, would like to know if you could put a sort of time limit for the government to say when all of this would come into effect?

Nancy Laatunen: Um I’ll let Matt talk about UK government timetables. They’re a mystery to me. Um I just wanted to come back to your earlier comment about the timing of this project and just to say that the team- we’re only in the first quarter of this project so I don’t really think that we’ve started the consultations late. We started the consultations in June and we only start the project towards late April or early May so, you know we’ve just, and the project is a little under a year to be done, know you January-February 2015 so we weren’t involved in the project, you know, last year or the early part of this year. So the timing is actually, according to the workplan it’s not late from the workplan. So I just wanted to add that.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: I think one thing you wanted us to try and give some indication or some reassurance about the timing that the government will follow. One thing that we need to consider when we’re looking at the options for resettlement: it’s the timeframe, it’s when will people go back and will they all go back at once or will this be a phased process? And I think what we will try and do in our report, for each of the different options that we present to the government, is to give an idea of the timeframe that we think is appropriate in each case. So that gives us an opportunity to put some pressure on them to think about the timescale.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: It’s a bit of an empty answer for us because we’d like to know where we stand on this issue.

Matthew Boyle: I think all we can do in the report is try and give it a sense of urgency so that they understand if they want to do this, if they want to recommend that one of the options is done, they need to start work quickly to make it happen.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Anthony Bandon [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So we don’t know if this government is doing this because they want our support because the elections are coming up, and then if they win, once they win they’ll forget us and that (inaudible) will go on for another 10 to 15 years. And if they lose it will be the other ones who don’t know anything at all about it so [Laughs]. And then in 5 years’ time another lot of government will come in and do the same thing and then 5 years after that another government will come in and then we are getting older, we’re 40 or 50, 60 years old. When Jeremy Corbyn went to Mauritius people were (inaudible). The same thing happened in 2006 in the Chagos. So our Tory MP, he said he would phone him and he was not answering the phone, he was not taking the calls.

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Matthew you had said that you will meet with us and you will contact us or meet with us and we are free to contact you. Would you leave us your details with us?

Matthew Boyle: Yeah

Bernadette Dugasse [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Sheetal has sent an email saying as of next week, the KPMG group are leaving. The team, rather.

Matthew Boyle: Um well Nancy is going back to Canada but I live and work in London. I’m not going anywhere. 

Anthony Bandon: Could you leave us cards please?

Matthew Boyle: Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead. I’m starting to run out but I’ve got a few left if you want one. And yes, we are happy to see you. The other team members also live close by.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Matt hands out business cards. Some of the Chagossians give Matthew their contact details] 

Bernadette Dugasse: In this group we are already been back to Chagos for a visit. 

Matthew Boyle: Ah. When did you go?

Bernadette Dugasse: 2011

Matthew Boyle: Oh okay. And which islands did you see?

Bernadette Dugasse: Diego Garcia, Peros Banhos and Salomon island. Half day on Peros Banhos, half day on Salomon island, 5 days on Diego Garcia. 

Matthew Boyle: We had one day on Diego Garcia and we visited 13 other islands, but they were very short visits. We had 2 hours on each island so it was a very quick visit. 

Bernadette Dugasse: What saddened me was the state of the cemetery on Diego Garcia. 

Matthew Boyle: It was in a very bad way, a very bad way

Bernadette Dugasse: Really, really

Matthew Boyle: It hasn’t been looked after well.

Bernadette Dugasse: No. 

[Final exchange of details]

Matthew Boyle: Okay, thank you very much everyone.

[Meeting closes]

-END OF TRANSCRIPT-