KPMG RESETTLEMENT FEASIBILITY STUDY PRE-CONSULTATION MEETING
Public Meeting
19:00-21:00, 02/07/2014
Broadfield Community Centre, Crawley, UK

Speakers/Organisers:
Matthew Boyle, KPMG London, Lead for the study
Nancy Laatunen, KPMG resettlement consultant
Nathan Hill, KPMG London

Interpreter: 
Rekha Narula

Audience members:
Approximately 120 Chagossians, including:
Sabrina Jean, UK Chagos Refugees Group
Bernard Nourrice, UK Chagos Refugees Group 
Giany Augustin, UK Chagos Refugees Group
Joseph Bertrand, British Chagossian Community Crawley
Jean Mercure, British Chagossian Community Crawley
Frankie Bontemps, Chagos Islands Welfare Group
Allen Vincatassin, Diego Garcian Society Crawley
Mylene Augustin, Chagos Island Community Association

Other participants:
Rudy Pothin, ZSL Connect Chagos
Laura Jeffery, University of Edinburgh
Richard Dunne, Barrister and coral reef scientist

Transcript of proceedings

Matthew Boyle: Welcome everyone. Thank you ever so much for coming this evening. It’s good to see so many of you here. I hope you can hear me clearly?

Multiple audience responses: Yes

Matthew Boyle: There are several more seats here. Please do, please do join us. Um. This evening is the first opportunity that I and my colleagues as part of the KPMG study team have had to meet you so it’s good to see so many of you here in attendance, and we very much look forward to this evening’s discussion. Um, first of all, if we do some introductions, um, my name is Matthew, Matthew Boyle. I work as part of KPMG’s team in London, and am, er, looking after as the lead for this study. Um, and I’ll now hand over briefly to my colleagues Nancy and Nathan and then to Rekha, who will introduce themselves as well and then we’ll proceed. So Nancy, over to you.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Ah, good evening everyone. Ah, my name is Nancy Laatunen. I don’t usually have to use a microphone. Um, I’m from Canada, and, ah, I’m very pleased to be in Crawley this evening to, ah, work with you and have a, have a good meeting.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nathan Hill: I’m Nathan Hill, I also work at KPMG with Matt, providing project support for this project. Er, my background is economics and international development, erm, specifically through food security and agriculture.

Laura Jeffery: Let’s get more chairs. Let’s get more chairs. Are there more in the cupboard?

Sabrina Jean: Yeah.

[Rekha Narula translates Nathan Hill’s statement into Kreol]

Rekha Narula: Mwa mo apel Rekha Narula, mwa interpret, e avan nu komanse mo envi explik u ki mo role ete antan ki interpret. Mo pa pu pren parti person dan sa reunion-la. Mo objectiv, tu seki mo tande mo bizin interprete. Donc si ena ban zaffer ki u pa envi pu zot zot tande, pa dir sa devan mwa paski mo oblize interprete. E mem zaffer pu zot osi: zot kone ki si zot pa envi u tan en kit soz, zot pa bizin dir devan mwa paski mo pu oblize repeti tu seki mo tande. Li bon, u kompren?

Unidentified audience member: Wi, espere.

[Exchange not translated into English]

Matthew Boyle: Okay. Once again thank you very much. Um, just to explain very briefly. Ah, there are a number of things which we hope to cover this evening. First of all, I will give you a very brief introduction to, er, the study team and the work which we are undertaking.

[Audience discussion about getting chairs as people continue to arrive]

Sabrina Jean: I think it’s open, you can go and take some (chairs)

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol. Audience discussion, new arrivals find seating. Rekha Narula repeats Matthew’s introduction in Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And then once I’ve introduced the study, the work that we’re undertaking, to you, I will then hand over to Nancy, who is our team’s lead resettlement specialist, who will then lead a discussion around, er, the kinds of concerns and issues that are likely to be involved in the resettlement process.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And then we are very keen to open up the discussion to you, to give you the opportunity after that to ask questions of the team, and to raise any issues or any concerns that you have about the work that we’re doing, and what the resettlement process might look like.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And then hopefully we’ll finish by talking to you a little bit about the next steps in the process, because today, for us, this is pre-consultation – this is our first opportunity to meet with you – and there will be a lot more follow-up work to take place in the coming weeks ahead.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Now, I’ve introduced myself briefly, as has Nancy, and Nathan, but I should just add that the study team, which has been appointed by the Foreign Office, includes a number of other specialists: an infrastructure specialist, whose name is Yusaf Samiullah, an economist, whose name is Malcolm Summerfield, an environmental climate change specialist named Professor Andrew Price.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So we have a number of other team members who sadly can’t be here with us tonight, but we have that team because this study is intended to be a thorough one that looks at every aspect of the resettlement process.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And the team started work in April of this year, so we had a brief period between during April and early May to gather materials, to begin to understand the background and the history to this subject, because obviously it’s, it’s an issue with a long history.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And in May a number of the team members had a brief visit for about a week to the islands themselves. We saw a number of the islands to start to gather data on the environmental situation, the state of the infrastructure, to start to help us think about what the possible options for resettlement might be.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Now, the analysis of that information is still going on, on the part of our team, but we will certainly look to share that with you as part of the discussion and consultation process, as soon as we can.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And now, alongside that, we are starting the consultation process, and we have had a series of meetings already in both Mauritius and the Seychelles
[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And obviously now here we’re starting the same process in Crawley and we will have further meetings later this week in both London and in Manchester.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So this for us is an important first step to get to know you and we expect that the discussions will carry on for, er, several weeks, but so that you’re aware about the timetable to which we are working as a whole, we have a deadline of January next year to submit our feasibility study report to the Foreign Office.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And, to explain what that report will contain, it will set out a series of possible options for resettlement and explain the costs and the implications of each, but we will not be making a recommendation to the Foreign Office, it will be for them to determine which if any of those options they would wish to take forward.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So, for us this consultation process in the coming weeks is very important, the more information that we can gather from you, the more you can tell us about your own expectations, the better we– the job we can do to lay out those possible options for the Foreign Office to consider.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: I hope that’s a useful introduction, but certainly I’m sure you will have questions as we go along. But I do have one very quick question, which is something we have asked, um, in the meetings which we’ve had both in Mauritius and the Seychelles, a basic question but it would be great if you could give us an answer.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Nancy has been prodding me to make sure I ask this question!

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Is it possible that you could tell us: What are the numbers of Chagossian people here in Crawley?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Steeve [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: 5,000

Sabrina Jean: For me, er, I would like to tell you, er, FCO and BIOT need to know how many Chagossians we have. They got our records, yeah? They need to know, it’s not us need to tell you how many Chagossians we are here [Sabrina Jean begins to repeat statement in Kreol, then says to Rekha Narula] oh yeah, you can translate for me. Sorry! [Laughs] It’s okay. Sorry [Laughs]

[Rekha Narula translates Sabrina Jean’s statement into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Thank you very much Sabrina. Very good answer.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: I shall now hand over to Nancy, who will take forward the next part of the meeting.

Nancy Laatunen: I just wanna give people a minute to let’s get more chairs, I don’t want people standing for this long.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Search for more chairs for latecomers]

Nancy Laatunen: Okay, everybody has a chair now? No?

Unidentified man (3rd generation) [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Before we continue I’d like to ask a question. 

Rekha Narula: Right, so, if the gentleman has understood correctly you are here today, you’re all here today to (inaudible) and at the end they’re going to have all of the options, you’re not going to decide anything. They, I mean the Foreign Office will decide at the end, and they, and then they may or may not choose what options you give them. They might choose something that you’ve given them, or they might not choose something that you’ve given them.

Matthew Boyle: That, that’s correct. Yes, that is correct.

Unidentified man (3rd generation) [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So why are we here? Why are we here if they are going to maybe ignore that, why are we giving our opinion? What’s the point?

Matthew Boyle: Well, the point is that at this stage in the process, they have asked us to carry out this research and to put forward a series of options for them to consider.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Now, we certainly cannot guarantee that this means the Foreign Office will choose one of the options which we give them.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: We cannot promise that.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: However, the more detailed information that we have available to present in our report, the better the chance that they might look with interest at what we give them.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So we can make no promises, we can’t speak for the Foreign Office.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But we are approaching this in good faith, and are very keen to take on board as much information as you can give us.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And certainly if you have concerns about the process we are very happy to share that with the Foreign Office to make sure that the FA are aware of how you are feeling about this process.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified man (3rd generation) [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So why can’t those people come here for (inaudible)? So they’ve sent you here (inaudible)

Matthew Boyle: That is correct. They have asked us to approach this. They have asked us to approach this as an independent team of consultants.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So they don’t want there to be any suspicion that the Foreign Office is driving the work that our team does.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So we are working for them, but we are the same.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And that’s why they aren’t in the room this evening.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

[Annecy Jaffar speaks in Kreol. Audience applause]

Rekha Narula: It was more–  more– more– of a– of a statement rather than a question, um, that lady just said

Annecy Jaffar [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: In 2009 the Foreign Office sent people from England here to Mauritius to do a feasibility study, and there was no good result from that, and they sent them to Chagos, and they keep on, year after year, it seems that year after year they keep on examining the case of resettlement but they keep on sort of saying, you know, they keep on saying ‘how many people are left of the Chagossian community?’ I myself am 69 years old, I’ve been here for 22 years [Rekha Narula checks with Annecy Jaffar]

Unidentified man: 22 years since she started, since it all started

Unidentified woman: She was 22 years old

Rekha Narula: Ah okay, she was 22 years old when it all started [Annecy Jaffar continues to speak in Kreol] No, is that the, what the lady just said is that you know if they really were going to take into account the Chagossian community they should have asked the Mauritian government: we gave you money to do this work, where is that money gone, what have you done with it? And then people going back from here or coming from Mauritius, going back to Mauritius [Checks with Annecy Jaffar and continues] the debts that they have, and then also the children are not participating and not being involved in this, or are not able to be.

Matthew Boyle: We’ve begun to understand the history of this, we’re well aware that previous studies have been commissioned

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And we know that nothing has happened as a result of those studies.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: However, we would really like you to see this as a, a fresh start.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Um, we, we understand that you, you are suspicious

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: but one of the reasons that we have been asked to prepare our report for January next year 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: is because next year there will be a general election.

[Audience laughter]

Unidentified woman (Seychelles): That’s all they need, is our (inaudible).

Bernard Nourrice: It speak by itself.

Unidentified woman (Seychelles): You know what she is saying, is like we’ve got a wound and they stick, they keep digging knives into it, that’s all they’re doing. That’s what she is saying. Year after year the same story, year after year. They keep taking us for fools, that’s what they’re doing [Continues in Kreol].

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Joseph Bertrand [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: We would like you to let to finish and then we will ask you questions, but these ladies are expressing themselves because we no longer have faith and trust in anyone, including the government, but we’d like you to finish anyway.

Matthew Boyle: We, we, we understand and we’re aware of, we’re aware of the very, the, the, the very unfortunate history and the fact that nothing has been done to date. All we can ask is that you at least trust and, and, and listen and talk to us as, as the study team and certainly we want to hear as much as we can from you, and we will certainly pass on your frustrations and your concerns to the Foreign Office too, the people for whom we work, so that they’re aware that they do need to take this seriously. All we can do is pass on that message to make sure that they’re aware of how you see things. But we would ask that you bear with us.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Giany Augustin [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So you, the gentleman, you said that you cannot promise anything, so how can we trust you to realise and put into implementation, implement something if you cannot promise anything, and also especially since past studies have achieved nothing?

Matthew Boyle: Well, I have tried to be, to be honest and to make that clear that we are not in a position where we can say that resettlement will go ahead, we cannot make that promise on behalf of the Foreign Office, that’s not our job.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: However, all I can ask is that you, you listen to us and you share your concerns and your ideas with us, because the, the, the more that we can gain from you during this process the better the chance that something good will come from this.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: What I would like to know is I would like the gentleman to explain to us or tell us what he has to say because if people keep on asking questions we’ll never find out what is going to be said.

Matthew Boyle: Okay, well in that case I shall pass over to my colleague who will take over for the next part of the session, and then we can start talking about some of the important issues.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Okay, um, again just to remind you what my role is, I am the resettlement specialist on this assignment. Now, um, when Matt is talking about, um, what we can and can’t do in our Terms Of Reference, my job is to look at what if resettlement goes ahead.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So, there are international guidelines, international standards that we must do good resettlement and relocation work.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We cannot prepare options just based on economics and not consult with communities.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I usually have to hear from women’s groups, I have to hear from teachers, I have to hear from health specialists, when I do a large relocation project.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen [Referring to presentation slides]: So I just want to introduce the first slide, that this is the standard best-practice for resettlement, that resettlement should never increase poverty for vulnerable people. It can stay the same, go up, stay the same, but never go down. That is the international rule.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: The second important point - and there are many important guidelines and features, I’ve just listed two of them on this slide - but ensure that all infrastructure projects, anything that involves roads, bridges, highways, ports, wharfs, jetties, um, that we have consultations to ensure socio-economic development, and that in case there are any negative actions we have a mitigation plan to make sure that there are no negative impacts on people.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And finally the last point on the slide is: resettlement planning must take into account and encourage consultation. So this is one reason why we are here tonight, this is called the pre-consultation stage, and this is where it is very important in the options analysis that’s being done is what are you as the stakeholders, what your views, what are your opinions? To me they are the most important. So then I work with my economic colleague, with my infrastructure colleague. But your views will be represented in this study, that is for sure.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So on the next slide I’ve just put two definitions. There are many, many international definitions for resettlement and relocation, um, but two most important are vulnerability and affected persons.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Um, just to give an example of vulnerability, um, I was doing a large project in Nigeria. We had a large group of female-headed households, they are usually poorer, so we had to have a special package, subsidies, a special training package, an employment package to make sure – remember my opening comment – that they stayed the same or went up, but that they didn’t increase their vulnerability.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So, one of the tasks that I have to look at is what are the components of a resettlement plan? So if there is relocation that is an option, and the options of relocation, then what are some of the impacts, the negative impacts, of people relocating? So then I would have to take a look at that list and come up with measures – together with my colleagues – to mitigate any negative impacts.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So the two most common mitigation measures that I am working on recently tend to be housing. So I’m looking for housing that is similar and/or better – I’m working on a very large project in South-East Asia where we are moving over 12,000 people now – um, and I’m usually looking at employment and income-generating opportunities.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Now I just want to point out some of the comments of the–  some of the statements on this next slide, come back to one of the first questions about why consult? And why are we here? And why do we want to have meaningful participation? Because it’s not just part of the feasibility study but it could form the basis of a future solid resettlement plan.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And as Matt said this is a pre-consultation meeting, so you’ll see that in the bottom of slide, so if you have questions and comments then we would have to do our homework, if we had a second follow-up meeting with a larger group, a smaller group. But part of it is to begin to share those experiences because we don’t want the option boxes to just be infrastructure, cost, oh no!, economic cost – we have to have stakeholder views and opinions. And this is the cornerstone of very good international resettlement work, and I’m a, I’m quite a well-known watchdog on this so this is where it’s your opportunity to vent, get it all out as well.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Um, we often say why do we collect such a lot of data for resettlement, and I often get asked this in many countries, and if we’re asking for data collection the reason is we want to get the best possible picture so that we know what services and what are your urgent needs?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So we usually do what we call an SES questionnaire, it’s to get a picture of the community who’s being resettled so that we can ensure that the services that they need – health, education, agriculture, employment – are available there. And that’s why we need to get a clearer picture of the households.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And I just want to make, make another sort of small example. If there is relocation, and this is what – we are– we are– we are independent thinkers on our team, and that’s my job, is why would they hire a resettlement person if they are not thinking about this? So if there is resettlement, I’m just giving you a practical example, what if we have in this room, I don’t want any show of hands, eight people that are diabetic, okay, it’s a common disease, but then we need to make sure we have essential drugs and that we have a pharmacist or a trained pharmacist’s assistant. So we need to know the types of occupations that people have, or who could be trained, who would we have to bring in, who do we have that is available to help people, do we have a nurse, do we have a doctor? So these are some of the reasons why we like this kind of data.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen [Referring to presentation slides]: Um, this is the next to last slide, I just (inaudible). One of my favourite aspects of resettlement is looking at income restoration, and international resettlement policies. When we have changes in employment, if someone has gone from paid salary and goes to somewhere there where is no job, that is not acceptable internationally, not at all! We have to have a package that is then made available to people, it could be income substitution for a short period of time, tapering off, it could be technical training, it could be some college courses, there is a package that is arranged because remember the rule: stay the same, go up, but we don’t want family income to go down.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And I’d just like to share two, er, interesting bits of information: we had one meeting in the Seychelles where one of the stakeholders suggested it – and we in the panel all love this idea – why wait for resettlement? Why don’t we do some of this within the– with the community now? Why don’t we involve and get some scholarship opportunities, um, and get some, er, training for post-secondary students – and we thought this was an excellent idea – that we don’t necessarily need to wait, we could certainly promote that now.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: And I have a colleague that’s working on the infrastructure side, er, who could not be here tonight. But he’s looking into meeting with universities and looking into some agricultural scholarship opportunities. Um. My expertise is more on the education and health so where we have gaps why don’t we work with the community to try to train some people that are interested in being trained? Maybe you two want some extra training over there? Yes. So, I mean, these are things that we would be happy to document and to take a look at.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So, um, I said that was the last slide. So I just wanted to give you a little picture of some of the international guidelines and procedures when we do small and large relocation. I have had cases where I’ve had to move 3 million people from living next to a railway line. And there are very, very strict international regulations about relocation across borders, across countries. I’m working on a corridor project now in East Asia involving four countries, so there’s a lot of– it’s– we have to harmonise all the procedures and policies and we have to be consistent with all the training packages and employment packages.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Okay, that’s it for slides, and I was just going to go to item number 2, which is, um, a structured focus group questionnaire, um, but I’m happy to stop for say ten minutes and take questions, or go straight to the questionnaire? Okay? Er, yes, hand up first.

Mr Jacques [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: I don’t need a microphone. Thank you very much for letting us, well explaining to us and letting us express ourselves, so I have a question for you regarding income: so there is a law here, the English have a law which says that if you are outside England you can’t receive a pension because that’s a law that’s been passed. That’s the first question. The second aspect is to do with health: we are here and we are living in, we have issues to do with stress, and what we’d like to know is whether the law which is here in England will also be applied in Diego Garcia, or the laws?

Nancy Laatunen: Do you mean like NHS?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Mr Jacques [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Okay, so yes, it’s to do with that, but it’s people who are living here, are ill, they are, they say they are sad, they are, they feel stressed out, they don’t have a passport, they are here and their children are there, so will a similar situation happen if we go to Diego Garcia or will different happen in Diego Garcia?

Rekha Narula [in Kreol, to Mr Jacques, then translated into English]: The interpreter asked for clarification and it is– essentially the question is will British laws apply and be applied in Diego Garcia?

Richard Dunne: I can actually answer that: under the 1983 courts ordinance, section 3 I think it is, that specifically applies English law, British law, to BIOT. It is capable of being applicable.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Rekha Narula [to Richard Dunne]: English law or British law?

Richard Dunne: English. There is– there is no such thing as British law.

Rekha Narula: I know. It’s because you said both, that’s why.

Richard Dunne: English

Rekha Narula: Yeah

[Rekha Narula continues translation into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: However, I should say that the Foreign Office is currently contesting the application of that section, um, and we’re–  in– in relation to Freedom of Information law and we’re waiting for judgment on that.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I just, I don’t know the answer to your question on pensions, I’m not even British, I– perhaps one of my colleagues can answer.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: I just want to come back to your question about health services though. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: We had, um, one of the topics of health services came up last week and they um– in– I can’t recall if it was Seychelles or Mauritius – expressing that they wanted, subject to return, to have NHS standards – remember I’m Canadian, I don’t know NHS standards.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: But then when I checked with my colleagues what is NHS; it is the Canadian model, it is a free healthcare model.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: So– so we would not be recommending anything less, I mean come on! So we would only be recommending a full free public model.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Joseph Bertrand [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Okay, so thank you very much for your clarifications and your explanations. However, a lot of questions will have to– or seem to be remaining unanswered because you can’t give an answer. But one question is, one aspect has to do with visas: if we go we have a lot of children who don’t have visas, what are we going to do with those children, as an example?

Sabrina Jean [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Another aspect is to do with citizenship issues and it’s to do with any– any aspect of, any matter regarding resettlement, the FCO and the BIOT have to and must absolutely consider citizenship because when they sent us, rather when they moved us from Diego Garcia to Mauritius and from Mauritius up to the UK, our families have been split so the first factor they have to consider is that of citizenship, because our families are not going to be split up, it’s not going to be first generation will go back and the third and fourth will stay here. One goes, all go.

Katy Omo: Sorry, I have a question. Sorry, I need to go to work [continues in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English. Audience members respond in Kreol but this is not translated into English] You, Nancy, have been talking about resettlement, going back to, or potential resettlement, going back to the Chagos islands. You are doing this survey. And you talked about moving 3 million people.

Nancy Laatunen: No, no, not for this group.

Rekha Narula: No, no, no but in another project. How long will it take, how long did that take to move or resettle those people? Because we here are not 3 million, we are 5000 here, we are 2000 in Mauritius, and as a couple of people said, many of us are dying off, three have already died in one month.

[Katy Omo continues in Kreol. Another audience member makes a comment in Kreol but is hushed by others, to allow Rekha Narula to translate question]

Rekha Narula: Going back to the question of how long it will take, the interpreter forgot, the lady said that it’s going to be 32 years, next year, 6 months, how long? Um, going back to the issue of education that she also mentioned, she said: I don’t think that Chagossian children in Mauritius are getting the chance to go to university, so where are we going to have doctors? Where are we going to have pharmacists? And we can’t even get 5000 rupees to get a passport to come over here, so, um, you know, how long will all of this take? Because our children over there especially in Mauritius are not getting the chance to go to university and to be trained up to the kind of level that you are talking about.

Nancy Laatunen: Um, just, just to talk about typical, er, large projects where I move large, er, population, er, five to twenty thousand let’s say, and (inaudible) or even across boundaries, usually 18-24 months. [Rekha Narula begins to translate into Kreol; Nancy Laatunen interrupts] Sometimes a bit longer, sometimes a bit shorter. I can think of both cases.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified woman [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]:  Um education (inaudible)? [01:14:07]

[Audience laughter]

Nancy Laatunen: No, education, it’s a generational thing as well, we have to keep that in mind, um, but I always say you have to start from somewhere, so, um. What we would is we would be setting in a resettlement plan – in a formal resettlement plan – we would set actual targets and performance indicators and it would be literally to set numbers of– the number of post-secondary students that are going into health professions, education professions.

[Unidentified woman poses question in Kreol. Rekha Narula translates Nancy Laatunen’s statement into Kreol]

Rekha Narula: Um what the lady who was talking just now with the glasses said is that if they had the opportunity to attain those levels they would already be doing so.

Nancy Laatunen: Oh, I know, yeah.

Rekha Narula: But they haven’t got those opportunities.

Nancy Laatunen: Can we move onto Part 2 and then finish Part 2 and come back to open questions?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So last year the FCO came here, went to Manchester, Mauritius and Seychelles, and, to talk about the resettlement project, to ask us what we understood by resettlement, and to hear our voice, voices. Have you – because you’ve now started this project – have you been given the data, the information from what was done, undertaken last year?

Sabrina Jean: It was from Martin Longden and Sangeeta who left the feasibility study. It was FCO and BIOT.

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: I haven’t yet finished, so this was not, you know...

[Audience members complete Linday Cotte’s sentence, stating: ‘KPMG’]

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: KPMG. Okay, so you know about moving considerable numbers of people who have to be moved through circumstances like war or famine.

Nancy Laatunen: Correct.

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula continues to translate into English]: But in our case is totally different. Have you ever had to move or resettle a group of people who are essentially going to a place where there is nothing and so are starting from zero? [Linday Cotte continues in Kreol and Rekha Narula continues to translate into English]  And then to bring themselves up to live a normal life as they are living in this country. [Linday Cotte continues in Kreol and Rekha Narula continues to translate into English] Because as we understand it you are building up a case to present to the Foreign Office. 

Rekha Narula: And what the gentleman had also said is that this kind of situation is why we have no trust, no confidence. 

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula continues to translate into English]: Because there is always this going on. So what voice will we have? So what voice will we have? What confidence and trust will we have that the Foreign Office will consider what you will be putting on the table to them? [In English] It’s time, the (inaudible), it’s time. [Rekha Narula checks translation with Lindsay Cotte. Lindsay Cotte continues in English] It’s time, yes! We can start with confidence between us [Rekha Narula interjects in Kreol. Audience members say ‘KPMG’. Rekha Narula continues to translate into English] We want to know, we would like to know what are your strengths – you not you personally, but you as KPMG in this kind, in this project – what are your strengths and your weaknesses, and that way we can build up trust with you.

Nancy Laatunen: Um, I’ll pass the mic over to Matt, and then I think we’ll do last question and get on with (inaudible)…

[Audience discussion in Kreol establishes via Rekha Narula that Matthew Boyle and Nathan Hill have been to Chagos, but Nancy Laatunen has not]

Matthew Boyle: Just to answer that question, just to reassure you, several members of the team including Nathan and I did get a chance to visit the islands in May

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And as part of the process of doing this study we have been in discussions with the Foreign Office, and they have advised us that if we want to go back to visit the islands again at any time during the process they will assist us in doing that so that we get an idea of exactly what we are talking about.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But just to come back to the earlier question that was I think was raised by the gentleman at the back of the room, um

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: because I’m sure you want to know more about, as you said, who we are

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: and it is true that this is, er, an unusual assignment, an unusual and...unusual, not a traditional resettlement assignment

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: but nevertheless the team that we have – including Nancy who is a highly respected expert in this field, our colleagues, our infrastructure specialist who was, ah, a very senior figure in the UK government in the infrastructure field.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: He was in charge of the infrastructure team, the infrastructure division as part of the UK’s international development programme.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And our economist has more than 20 years of experience looking at economic issues in small islands.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And our environmental specialist is a professor of environmental management and climate change.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So I can reassure you that it is a very, very capable and very experienced team for what is we understand an unusual assignment.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And we hope that as part of this process you not only get to meet and to talk with us but those other members of the team who aren’t unfortunately here tonight.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But now I’m going to hand back to Nancy so that she can carry on with the next stage.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Giany Augustin [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: I have a suggestion. Two questions. Diego is habitable as it stands because it already has an infrastructure in place, so my suggestion is to, as a show of good faith, and to show that they mean that they want to resettle the Chagossian community, why do they not resettle a part of the community on the islands of Diego Garcia? That’s one suggestion, my first point. My second point is are the Americans aware of what the Foreign Office is thinking or considering, that is to say of resettling us, and what is their position, that is to say, the Americans’ position on this?

Matthew Boyle: That– that– that’s a– a fair question. To start with you mentioned Diego Garcia, and you’re right, both Nathan and I got a chance to see Diego Garcia the island, and you’re– you’re certainly correct, it’s, it’s an island that would be very suitable, it looks, for resettlement, and it is within the scope of this study.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So in developing our options for KPMG’s report it is very likely I think that Diego Garcia will feature in some way.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Now, you mentioned the US authorities, the US government. They have been consulted by the Foreign Office in the commissioning of this study, so they are aware it is taking place

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: and they have no objection to this study being undertaken and to Diego Garcia being considered as a possible site of resettlement.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So at this stage that is– that is– that is the situation, that is what we can tell you, that they are aware, the US government, that this study is taking place.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And– and I would assume that as we do our work, gather information and do our research, it will become clearer what the– the– the possibilities for resettlement on Diego could look like in detail.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: But as I, I said at the very start, that doesn’t mean we can guarantee that Diego Garcia would be selected by the Foreign Office when they come to make their decision.

[Audience laughter]

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Marie Aimée Navarre Aldolphe speaks in Kreol. Audience applause]

[Rekha Narula addresses audience in Kreol. Audience discussion in Kreol]

Rekha Narula [Referring to Marie Aimée Navarre Aldolph]: The lady, the lady’s very happy that, you know, the discussion of resettlement of Diego Garcia is being done, the project is being carried out

Marie Aimée Navarre Aldolphe [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: But our generation, a lot of our generation are dying out. We have been waiting decades. Some of us have children in Mauritius who have no rights to come here, who have no passport, who cannot get a visa to come here. And we, as Chagossians, were born under the British flag, we were not born under the independent flag of Mauritius, because by then the excision had happened, the separation had happened, and we were born under the British flag, we had every right to have that British flag. When we got it, it was a minor miracle for us to be given that British flag. And then we were separated from our children. Husbands were separated from their wives. Wives were separated from their husbands, and families were separated. And the other thing is, this resettlement issue in Diego Garcia, what potential is there, what potential is there for our children, who if they have no passports, how can they possibly– and no possibility of educating themselves and getting a decent enough education to be able to go and resettle in Diego Garcia, to go and settle in Diego Garcia and to get the kind of work that is being proposed? What is that going to entail, what is that, what purpose will that serve if they, our children, have no future in that sense? Erm, we are not a large population of people, we are a small population and many of us are dying out. 

Rekha Narula [Referring to Marie Aimée Navarre Aldolph]: As the lady said, my own husband is ill in hospital, what is he going to do to go and resettle Diego Garcia? The only thing that will happen is he’ll be buried there. And, we, there was a comment that was made about there are no more horses and there are no more donkeys. There are no more– the horses and the donkeys have all been eaten up, basically. And there’s not a lot of (inaudible) there. Er but (inaudible) but essentially what this lady has said is that what future is there for us? We the older generation are dying out. We are a dwindling and small population, and there is no future even for our children, for the next generations.

Richard Dunne: Can I just ask, my understanding is that although the Americans are not putting any formal block in the way of the resettlement, they have actually told the Foreign Office that resettlement can’t rely on US infrastructure on Diego Garcia. Am I right or wrong on that?

Matthew Boyle: That is correct, so what we would need to do, if we were to put forward an option that included in some way Diego Garcia…

Richard Dunne [Referring to Rekha Narul]: Maybe she ought to translate it first, sorry.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: OK. So we would need to reflect that in whatever option we put presented, just to make it clear that any supporting infrastructure – in terms of health and education services, housing, security – that would have to be accommodated separately rather than supported by the Americans.

Richard Dunne: And an airport, and a port?

Matthew Boyle: Well the airport is the one exception which we understand that they would potentially make.

Richard Dunne: And the port?

Other audience members: the port

Matthew Boyle: The port – I’m not sure. That’s to be clarified. But the airport, the airport, there is a possibility that that would be accommodated.

[Audience members pose questions (inaudible)]

Matthew Boyle: The Americans

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified man: We need a port, how else will we go fishing?

Sabrina Jean: So even on Diego Garcia it will take long, not resettlement, not resettlement on Diego Garcia will be like 2 months / 3 months, it will take long, same like Peros Banhos and Salomon then.

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Um, I think we are actually finishing off Question 1 on the community, um, focus group guide, but um, I don’t really know how we will have this, but if we can have some comments and opinions about resettling that some of you have

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: and Part 2 of that question is: what are your major concerns? We just heard about an airport or port, and any of your major concerns.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Education for children

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Animals

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: The citizenship issue is not resolved. That is the major, major...

Unidentified man: The first step of resettlement

Sabrina Jean: Yeah, it’s the first step

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Until that is resolved, nothing else can be resolved.

Nancy Laatunen: I want to make a comment about that. It’s, it’s a peculiar study because the citizenship or the nationality it’s called in the Terms of Reference, in our Terms of Reference, the nationality question, it’s under Exclusions. It’s not something that we are allowed to study, so it comes up at every meeting, we are told to study about health, education, income, er, environment, um, er, all these, but the nationality question is, is not part of what we are supposed to do.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Audience members express discontent with exclusion of nationality question from TOR]

[Audience members encourage Allen Vincatassin to speak in Kreol]

Allen Vincatassin [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So, if I understood correctly, what Nancy was saying was that you (or she) does not have the authority, the right to examine the question of nationality, [to Nancy Laatunen] that’s what you said. Erm, however, when people move, for example, when we move from the United Kingdom to Chagos, we will be moving because we are natives of that country, or our children are, and/or our children, and even though you might not have the right to examine the question or to consider it, you can suggest to them, to the Foreign Office, that when we move we move wholesale: we and our children.

Matthew Boyle: Yes, just, just to respond to, to that. It’s, it’s a fair question, and what I would say is that as part of the process of developing and costing the resettlement options which we present to the Foreign Office.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Our team – including our economist in particular who is doing our modelling and costing work for us

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: he needs to think about the, the numbers of people who are interested and keen to resettle.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: We need to know those numbers, otherwise we can’t figure out the kinds of services that are required and the kinds of investment that would be needed.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: So that in turn means that we will need to make some assumptions based on what we learn from you about who returns, from which generation, um, whether it’s members of the older generations or entire families.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Joseph Bertrand [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: We all want to go.

[Audience discussion in Kreol stresses that they should not separate natives and the younger generations]

Matthew Boyle: So in our report we will be making some assumptions about the, that issue that you have raised, the question of who should be eligible to return, but the policy decision is not something that we can decide.

Nancy Laatunen: But it doesn’t make much sense if it’s just first generation.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion in Kreol mistranslated by Rekha Narula]: The third generation, especially the third generation but also – [Audience discussion and hushing]

Allen Vincatassin [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]: Can we have some clarification on this airport issue, because um, have the Americans said that they have no objection for us to use that airport, because is the airport American and British, does it belong to the UK and the USA? [Allen Vincatassin continues in English] No, no, I provided the answer. I provided the answer. The answer is: the UK has a right to use that airport. Yeah, in their communication [Audience members make comments in Kreol. Audience discussion and hushing. Allen Vincatassin continues in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So the Americans have said that Britain can use that airport. That is, that is what, that is stated, it’s not a question. This is something which the Americans have already said: that the British can use the airport. You ought to know that.

Matthew Boyle: Is this a, is this a question or … ?

Rekha Narula: It’s a statement

Sabrina Jean: It’s a statement

Rekha Narula: It’s a statement and a question, i.e, it’s his statement because this is what this gentleman understands the Americans have said and have you understood the same?

Matthew Boyle: I have understood that when the Americans said there was no objection to this study going ahead, it was on the basis that they would consider the use of their air facilities, but that any other services would have to be separately costed for and provided for outside of the American base. So my reading of that is that they are open to the possibility that the US airstrip could be used by any resettled population. Now I don’t take that as a, as a final decision that says yes they are firmly committing to it, but they are open to considering it once our report has been submitted and they have seen the options that are being presented.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified woman [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Okay, so when will, how long will it take to get an answer?

Matthew Boyle: Well, we can’t speak for the Foreign Office. Our report will be submitted in January. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Our understanding is that they want to debate and take a decision before the next election takes place next year, but the timing is not something for which we can give you any guarantees.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Allen Vincatassin [in Kreol, followed by agreement from audience; Rekha Narula translates into English]: The matter of [Audience members continue to voice their agreement]

Rekha Narula [Referring to Allen Vincatassin]: What this gentleman says is that the airport issue is an extremely vital one. You’ve given an answer but I am not at all satisfied with your answer, and –

Sabrina Jean: And I agree.

Rekha Narula: And Sabrina agrees, as do several others, and that lady said, in all of that, that it would seem that every year they are going to come and, shall we say, interfere with us

Unidentified woman: Play games

Rekha Narula: and play games with us, yes.

Matthew Boyle: Well, I, I, I can only, I can only say so much at this early stage of the process, but as I think Nancy said, the fact that the Foreign Office has recruited us in the first place to, to, to talk to you and to go through this process suggests that we need to take it seriously. And can I ask at this stage – because I know Nancy is keen to try and continue with, with, with, ah, the series of questions...

[Mylene Augustin begins to speak in Kreol. Others interject. Sabrina Jean tells Mylene Augustin to continue. Mylene Augustin continues in Kreol]

Rekha Narula [Referring to unidentified woman]: Okay, so, what that lady over there has said is that not only have they been playing games with us, it seems that they are getting our hopes up all the time and then dashing them. [Referring to Mylene Augustin] The interpreter did not get a chance to speak your reply, but what this lady has just finished saying is that it seems as though, erm, you know, we are asking questions and you can’t give us the answers or you were unable to give us the answers to the questions. And as [Referring to unidentified man] the gentleman said, we need people who can give us the answers. And then [Referring to Mylene Augustin] what the lady was continuing to say was that what’s going to happen to us? Is this going to continue (inaudible) like this ad infinitum? Are we going to be sent back to Diego, or not? And are they just waiting for us to die off one by one, because this situation is just year after year, day after day, just continuing, and stagnating (inaudible)?

Matthew Boyle: In answer to your question, as part of this process, once we have gone through these initial discussions with you – and I appreciate that at this stage we can’t give you many firm answers, we’re not in a position yet because this study has just got started 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: once our team has done its analysis we certainly want to be able to present back and discuss with you in detail what these possible options would look like. So as this process continues in the coming weeks and months, there will be more information and it will become more concrete but you have to bear with us and be patient because we are in our early stages at the present time.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Mylene Augustin: How much patience do we have to have? Do you know how patient we have been so far? [Several audience members speak in Kreol. Mylene Augustin continues in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English] When they sent us from Diego they just put us on the ships, they just put us on the ships, and now they’re asking us to be patient!

Richard Dunne: Could I, could I just say one thing? As a person who has supported you for four years, the significant thing about this study is it’s the first time the Foreign Office have ever allowed consultants to talk to Chagossians.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Back in 2000 and 2002 the supposed feasibility studies then, the consultants weren’t allowed to go and meet you, they weren’t allowed to talk to you. So this is a very significant step, and if I could say, I think you have to trust these people and I think you have to tell them what you want out of resettlement, how many of you want to go back.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Okay, can I, can I move onto the next question so that we can get – we actually have more consultations tomorrow, so (inaudible)

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Okay, and this is again, and let’s somehow try to figure out the um, the way to present the answers and we’ll, we’ll keep an eye on hands. For those of you that would like to permanently return, where is your first choice of returning?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion in Kreol asserting that everyone wants to return depending on conditions]

Sabrina Jean [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Diego, Salomon, Peros Banhos. 

[Audience discussion in Kreol asserting that people want to return to all 55 islands]

Danny [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: So are we, are we trying to establish, have we started to ask these questions and complete this questionnaire? How can, how can you complete the form with only 5% or so of the community here present?

Nancy Laatunen: Yes, we’re, this is pre-consultation, this is very standard and normal, we have plans to consult with other members of the community. It’s the premier rendezvous. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Danny continues to speak in Kreol; not translated into English]

Nancy Laatunen: We are not saying that it’s representative of all of the views, but we have to start from somewhere.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion and dissent in Kreol, continues for some time; Rekha Narula does not translate into English. Rekha Narula repeats translation of Nancy Laatunen’s statement]

Rekha Narula: Okay Nancy

Nancy Laatunen: Any other comments on that?

Rekha Narula: All the other islands, yeah. 

Nancy Laatunen: Um, I wanna ask you now something about education. What priorities would you set for education and training? [Audience discussion continues] What education priorities will we set?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Joseph Bertrand: Mo pe ale la, sorry. 

[Joseph Bertrand and several others leave the room and stand outside talking audibly]

Unidentified man: What she mean by priority of the education, because (inaudible)? [Continues in Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen [Interrupting]: Many, many, many communities set primary education as pri, as their priority.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: We need that base, we need the foundations first, the primary, secondary, we need the foundations.

Unidentified man [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: In terms of education, the educational priorities, it would depend on how the islands are going to be developed. That is to say, if the British government’s intention is to develop them as a tourism spot then education would (inaudible) foundations so it would reinforce that, but if it’s going to be centred on business, education (inaudible)...

[Audience discussion, people get up to leave]

Laura Jeffery: The reason for this exodus at the moment is that – I’m sure that you know (inaudible) have concerns about the questionnaires – and so the reason for this exodus is that people feel that this community group discussion is a way of getting people to fill in the questionnaires, fill in the forms, without you being open about it. So it might be worth discussing the difference between what you’re trying to do now and the questionnaires that (inaudible).

[Audience discussion, shushing]

Nancy Laatunen: This is a formal community meeting guide.

Laura Jeffery: Yeah, but they’re not clear on that, so they think that you’re filling in the questionnaires that they have said that they don’t want to fill in, on the basis of this discussion. So it’s just that that’s not clear.

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen: Well for anyone who is listening, there are, this is a community meeting, er, it’s a focus group guide for me, it’s a focus group guide. It is not the socio-economic questionnaire. That is a separate, second questionnaire that I have now just heard from Laura that you don’t want to complete. The first I’ve heard about it. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

[Unidentified man addresses Nancy Laatunen in Kreol]

Rekha Narula: What this gentleman has said before is going back to the education question: is that the basis for the education, whatever, the development of (inaudible) is that you need good administration, okay?

Nancy Laatunen: I’ve got that, okay. 

Rekha Narula: But as he’s also just said twice, is that you – we are not all, er disinterested 

Nancy Laatunen: Okay

Rekha Narula: in, er, in not completing the questionnaire. 

Nancy Laatunen: It’s not– this is not– it’s just a– it’s an inter– it’s a community meeting guide with er– general questions: what are your– the question on health is ‘what do you consider the minimum and basic health services that should be available to your family?’

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen [Emphatically, interrupting Rekha Narula]: a doctor, a nurse, a pharmacist?

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Nancy Laatunen [Speaking over Rekha Narula]: you know, whatever, the basics.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Jacqueline Chetty [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: You are the experts. You are going to present a proposition to the Foreign Office. You are going to apply the minimum international standard whether it’s education, health, work. Stop– we are not protected by international, we don’t have any international protection. We don’t have any– stop asking us questions and – the interpreter has to interpret exactly what was said

Nancy Laatunen: No problem.

Jacqueline Chetty [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Stop pissing us about. If we, if you’re asking us what the minimum we want to work is, we can say 1 rupee. International law might say 5 rupees. So you’re the experts, so stop farting about with us and, you know, tell us, you protect us, you stop asking us what we want, you give your expert opinion and voice, because we don’t have international protection.

[Unidentified man speaks in Kreol; not translated into English]

Unidentified woman [in Kreol; not translated into English]: Ask them if they would leave their families and go somewhere else?

[Audience discussion]

[Rekha Narula address the audience in Kreol, says that Matt will close this meeting now, and tomorrow morning at 9am in Crawley Library there are consultations. Audience members respond (inaudible). Rekha Narula tells the panel that there are about three more people with questions] 

[Unidentified woman addresses Nancy Laatunen in Kreol]

Rekha Narula: What she said is that (inaudible) that if these people who have left have left it’s because they feel that they have been pissed about too often for too long. She is not Chagossian, she is married to one, and you know she respects the choices of those who want to return and those who may not wish to return, but she said the position is that we have – they have all suffered, that is to say the native Chagossians, wherever they might be living, have suffered for so long and so they’re now fed up with you.

Frankie Bontemps [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: You went to Chagos in June and visited several of the islands. So, um, you visited the islands. How many islands are being considered as part of the resettlement process? And Diego Garcia was mentioned as a potential option. How many options would there be because we don’t want to find at the end when you’re presenting your report that (inaudible) Diego Garcia there’s no longer an option.

Matthew Boyle: We – we visited a total of 14 islands

Rekha Narula [to Matthew Boyle]: One-four?

Matthew Boyle [to Rekha Narula]: One-four, yes. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: and that includes Diego Garcia, we visited Salomon, we visited Peros Banhos and we visited several other islands too.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: and those islands were, um, in part chosen on the basis of feedback which we received from, ah, the community, um

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: The, the Chagos Refugees Group in particular made several suggestions, er, of islands that we should see, and we responded, we visited those islands. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Now as for the number of options that we will be including in our report

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: I think it will probably be something like 3 or 4 options.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Um but that, that is to be – that is to be decided based on this process of engagement with you.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: Right, OK, so we know that – you know, we understand that we do not want our standard of living to go down, nobody would want that when they’re going from one country to another, displaced from one country to another, and elements – factors such as education and health are basic human rights which we enjoy in this country already, but what has not been made clear is that once we return, how are we going to have facilities that we enjoy and benefit from over here, and how are those going to be transplanted over there? It’s a jungle out there. What are the infrastructure aspects which are going to be there, put in place? Ours is a new case for you. You’ve already mentioned that you have moved people from one country to another but that is because the other, the receiving country, already has infrastructure in place – 

Nancy Laatunen [sotto voce]: No

Lindsay Cotte [in Kreol; Rekha Narula translates into English]: It’s not clear been made clear what your action plan is going to be and there isn’t a reference point in historical terms where people have been displaced and then repatriated to their country of origin. So it’s not clear what you’re going to do, what your action plan is.

Nancy Laatunen [sotto voce]: Well, he’s wrong on that, anyway.

Matthew Boyle: Well certainly as part of the process of developing these options we need to think very carefully about the infrastructure needs, the service requirements, all of these things. So when we set out the options in our report there will be an awful lot of explanatory information that makes clear exactly what needs to be done, what kind of investment is required to make these things sustainable if, if, if people do return.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: If, if I could perhaps just try to– to– to bring things to– to a close and I think first of all I want to thank you again for all your contributions. You’ve obviously got a lot of questions at this early stage, are keen to try and understand exactly what this study team is going to be doing in the coming months, and I want to reassure you that this is the first opportunity of many that you will have to talk to us and, and to see what we’re doing. We certainly want to be as open and transparent as, as possible with you. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: As a first step tomorrow we will be at the Crawley Library for a series of meetings, um, we will be there I– I think for a large part of the day starting– starting tomorrow morning through until the middle of the afternoon.

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: And I believe that a– a number of people have already requested one-to-one meetings with us

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: and we are certainly looking forward to that

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: but I would add that, um, our team is– is– is always available should you wish to talk to us. We are happy to come down and spend as much time in Crawley as is necessary in the coming weeks, so please do not hesitate to reach out to us. 

[Rekha Narula translates into Kreol]

Matthew Boyle: Thank you very much everyone for your– for your time this evening. 

[Meeting closes]

-END OF TRANSCRIPT-