UK FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (FCO) - BRITISH INDIAN OCEAN TERRITORY (BIOT) POLICY REVIEW
Public Meeting
19:30-21:00, 24/07/2013
Wythenshawe Forum, Manchester, UK

Speakers/Organisers:
Sangeeta Ahuja, FCO Policy Review Team Leader
Melanie Capelin, FCO Policy Review Team

Interpreter:
Claudia Naraina

Audience members:
Approximately 23 Chagossians, including: 
Cyndie Residu 
Mrs K Mandarin
Fabiola Alexis 
Rosemarie Sakir
Charline Carolin
Marie Murielle Alexis
Jean Patrice Alexis
Jerome Naraina
Jean-May Baptiste
Mary Joyce Broni
Yuan Alexis
Marcel Alexis 
Patrice Alexis
Melissa Alexis
Will Clement 
Jean-Luc Mandarin 
Edlay Lafoudre
Jimmy Elysee

Other participants:
Richard Dunne, Barrister and coral reef scientist
Rebecca Rotter, University of Edinburgh

Transcript of proceedings

Sangeeta Ahuja: Now that everyone’s relaxed and having a chat, I’m going to interrupt you and start the meeting. Can you hear me okay? 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Claudia’s going to interpret so I’m going to make sure I don’t speak too fast or say too much. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: But I can’t promise that the younger members of the audience will understand what I say!

[Laughter]
[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

So I know some of you are wondering who I am and why I’m here. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: My name is Sangeeta Ahuja.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: I work for the British government in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So as a government official I come here with the knowledge, consent, even the, you know, with the full backing of British government ministers. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: On the 20th of December last year, the Foreign Secretary said he was going to review the policy towards the resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: Since then there has been a discussion at the highest level on the future of BIOT and our evolving policy. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: Ministers have met to discuss BIOT policy and agreed that Her Majesty’s Government’s policy towards the resettlement of BIOT and towards the Chagossians should be reviewed. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: On the 8th of July, just a couple of weeks ago, Foreign Office Minister Mr Simmonds announced the government’s intention to commission a new feasibility study into the resettlement of BIOT 

[Repeats sentence for Claudia Naraina’s benefit. Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: So my role within government is to start the process of engaging with all those who have an interest in BIOT. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: This is part of the planning process for the review of the policy.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: And also to give ministers options on how to proceed. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: I aim to consult as widely as possible. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: This includes Chagossian communities in Mauritius where I visited a couple of weeks ago, those in the Seychelles, and those in the UK, which is why I am here today. 

[Claudia Naraina Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So I’d like to ask you for your views. I’m here to listen and I’m also happy to take any views by email and there is the email address and I believe some of you in the community already have that email address; Mr Mandarin for example. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Unidentified audience member: Thank you

[Claudia Naraina continues to translate into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So I’m going to stop talking and give the floor to you and I’m particularly interested to hear your views on resettlement and on the new feasibility study. Thank you.

[Audience discussion in Kreol] 

Audience member 1 (Mary Joyce Broni): How many years decision making will take place? How many years it will take place for the resettlement, the feasibility, everything?

Sangeeta Ahuja: You know we’re moving forward with this as quickly as possible but we can’t, I can’t say exactly what the timetable is now. I’ll put views to ministers and the intention is to move forward with the feasibility study once ministers have taken decisions. 

Mary Joyce Broni: Okay. So what happens if we decided to go? What about our children, those who were born here? How it will work?

[Claudia Naraina translates questions into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: And I would add to that that it’s important that the review is as thorough as possible. Mr Simmonds, when he announced the new feasibility study recently, said “it is important that we take this forward carefully. The last feasibility study ten years ago took eighteen months. The new study is unlikely to be concluded any more quickly”. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: And FCO ministers have undertaken to update parliament once this initial period of consultation has been completed. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Audience member 2 (unidentified) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Have you been to Mauritius and Seychelles?

Sangeeta Ahuja: I’ve been to Mauritius, not to the Seychelles.

Audience member 3 (unidentified) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: I was in Mauritius on holiday recently. When was the meeting? I didn’t hear about it.

Audience member 4 (unidentified) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Is the government in Mauritius involved in the review?

Sangeeta Ahuja: The government of Mauritius I understand is aware of the UK government’s plans. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: I should be clear that I’m taking this work forward on the review on behalf of the BIOT administration who have asked me to do this and to put options to ministers

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: but my work is conducted separately from the people working in the BIOT administration 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: and I personally have no prior knowledge of the issues 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: so I’m not prejudging the issues on the table. 

Audience member 5 (unidentified) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: If we are willing to go back to our islands, will we be able to settle our native islands?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well, let me ask that question of you. What does going back to live in BIOT mean to you? What kind of life do you envisage there?

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion]

Audience member 5 [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: I’d like to live as I’m living now, here, as I’m living here. I’d like to live the same life I’m living here on my island. 
Audience member 6 (Jerome Naraina) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Will we still be British citizens if we go back to our island? Are we still going to have the same citizenship?
Sangeeta Ahuja: That’s a good question and one that I will make sure that the BIOT administration are aware of. What are your views on that?

Jerome Naraina: I don’t know. It’s just a question, you understand.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Yeah

Claudia Naraina [Addresses audience in Kreol]: What do you think? What do you think?

[Discussion amongst Chagossians]

Mary Joyce Broni: British. We can’t go back with the Mauritian government because it’s the British who has the key. So we can’t leave here and go back to the Chagos to be in Mauritius. No, that one we will not, we will not agree. I don’t know for those who were born on the Chagos but for us, we have had an opportunity to have a British passport, to be here for ten years, twenty years, and now we will go back to be, like, Mauritian, under the Mauritian government? We will not allow that. 

Audience member 7 (unidentified): No, we will not allow

Audience member 8 (unidentified): What happened about the passport? What are they going to say about the passport?

Mary Joyce Broni: Claudia, translate? [Mary Joyce translates the previous comments into Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: They’ve asked the question and you know they’ve been translating it basically.

Sangeeta Ahuja: No, I understand that, that’s fine. That’s fine.

Claudia Naraina: Yeah

Audience member 9 (Jimmy Elysee): Why is the government want to do that survey amongst our Chagossian people?

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: You know I think you’ll be aware of what people have said in the past. The government does not justify what happened in BIOT over forty years ago. We’ve said it was wrong 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: and that is why significant compensation was paid…

[Audience discussion. Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: but we need to be practical about future options. 

[Audience member says ‘yes’, and begins to speak further]

Sangeeta Ahuja: If you’d just allow me please madam. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Several audience members pose questions]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: The government – the government has had – the government has had a consistent position that the arguments against resettlement on security and feasibility grounds are clear and compelling…

[Audience members make statements in Kreol about the lack of compensation from the government and the issue of terrorism]

Sangeeta Ahuja: If you’ll just let – 

[Audience discussion continues]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Can you repeat it now because they are talking at the same time?

[Claudia Naraina translates Sangeeta’s previous statement into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: but the government knows that people have strong views on these issues

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: and we’re not dogmatic. [Emphatically] And we are not dogmatic. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: And that is why the Foreign Secretary has announced a review of our policy. 

[Audience members make statements in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So the results of these consultations will inform directly the detailed shape of the new study.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Jimmy Elysee and Cyndie Residu pose questions in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: Since, you know, they’re talking about what happened forty years ago, since um, they’re asking why, why the government wants to do this now. Why are they asking for their views and asking them questions about what happened and about the issues that happened, you know, before?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well, it’s a ministerial decision. This is what the Foreign Secretary announced last December. He took that decision.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Audience member 11 (unidentified) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: So what happened forty years ago means that it’s been erased and we are starting everything new, everything fresh?

Unidentified audience member: Forty years ago, you know

[Unidentified audience members pose question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: Feasibility he said. Regarding Diego Garcia or the other islands as well?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well that’s a good question and one that ministers will need to take a decision on. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: What I do know is that independent views from all interested parties will be used when considering how we take this study forward. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Ministers intend to make the remit of the study as broad as possible.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Audience member 12 (unidentified): Is the Mauritian government…

Sangeeta Ahuja: So that – If you can just let me finish my sentence – so that all the relevant issues

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: ...practical, financial, legal, environmental and defence matters…

[Claudia Naraina and audience members exchange dialogue in Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja: I’d really like to finish what I’m saying and then I will give you the floor so that all of these different matters are given full and proper consideration. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: You wanted to ask a question. I’m sorry.

Audience member 12: No, I’m finished. No, I’m done. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: Are you sure?

Audience member 12: Yes. The young people can talk.

Sangeeta Ahuja: There was a lady at the back.

[Man in audience makes comment in Kreol about natives]

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What did he say?

Audience member 13 (unidentified): We have our family life like English people do. We miss our family in Mauritius because our family can’t come here. They have many rules. Now everyone works like a cleaner. A cleaner. How much money do we have? It’s not enough for us.

[Audience members make comments in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What did the guy over there say?

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: I forgot now

Sangeeta Ahuja [to audience]: Thank you for telling me, yeah.

Jerome Naraina [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Back then, the BIOT was BIOT, British territory, but back then they didn’t give people British citizenship. Instead they told people, actually they sent people to Mauritius instead of Britain. Maybe if people had the opportunity to come here a long time ago, our lives would be different now. Were they already British back then?
[Audience member poses question in Kreol] 

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What’s she saying?

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: She said they don’t really get it, why forty years ago, people instead of, you know, being sent to the UK, they’ve been sent to Mauritius. And then in 2002, after we’ve been given British citizenship, we’ve been given, you know, British passports which allowed us to come here, but now we are asked to go back to our islands. So we don’t really get it, what’s going on, really.

Audience member 14 (unidentified): Yeah, we don’t know.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Just to be clear: we are not asking you to go back.

Audience member 14: No, just a question. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: That’s not what is happening here. What minister... There have been a lot of views about people wanting, saying they want to go back to live on the British Indian Ocean Territory so we need to look again at the feasibility of that and that is what ministers have decided to do. But there will be ... no one will be forced to do that. It’s about the feasibility of resettlement. 

Audience member 15 (unidentified): The people who would like to go back in their island, they have no opportunity to go back to working on this island, just to, to work as cleaner, porter, everything. The island, people working have big money on this island. Save money here, you makes every day tired [claps hands together]. Every day tired, you know? Because...no, just, you say, just question. Now I would very like to go working on this island. You don’t know what happen, working there.

[Another Chagossian man talks simultaneously in Kreol about the people (Filipinos) working on the military base. Audience discussion in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: Why us? [Claudia addresses audience in Kreol] They are basically asking why the Chagossians weren’t allowed – and some of us I think aren’t still allowed – to go and work on our island while other people from other countries are allowed to work on it.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well as I understand it, you are, but as this is a concern I will take this back to the BIOT administration and make them aware of it. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: And likewise I will ensure that they are aware of the point you raised about passports and visas. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol. Audience discussion in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: They are spending a lot of money, you know, just to make their families come here.

Audience member 8: Yeah because we have to pay a lot of money just to bring our kids here. Because there’s no family. They left their family there. They’ve got kids. They’ve got wives, but they can’t bring them over here. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: I can see that these are difficult issues. 

Unidentified audience member: You know what I’m saying? 

Audience member 8: It’s really difficult. You have to work. 

Claudia Naraina [in Kreol]: One by one!

Audience member 8: Okay, sorry, alright. 

Claudia Naraina [in Kreol]: One by one...

Audience member 16 (Jean-Luc Mandarin) [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: About the Marine Protected Area - is there anything you can do about this? Is it why we can’t go there?

Sangeeta Ahuja [Reading from paper]: The so-called No-Take Marine Protection Area is not a bar on resettlement. It can be revised. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Jean-Luc Mandarin begins to respond in Kreol but is cut off by Sangeeta Ahuja]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Let me tell you about the MPA and then we can move on if that’s okay. As it stands the MPA allows for subsistence fishing. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Multiple audience members speak and pose questions in Kreol but are cut off by Sangeeta Ahuja]

Sangeeta Ahuja: In the event of a decision to resettle the – in the event of a decision to resettle the islands

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: steps would need to be taken to ensure that the provisions of the Marine Protected Area are consistent with this. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So let me ask you a question on this. Any feasibility study would have to include consideration of how to mitigate environmental risks of possible resettlement. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Audience member 3 poses question in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [simultaneously]: So what do you think are the key elements to —

[Audience member 3 continues to pose question in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So – so my question [to Claudia Naraina] so do you want to tell me what he said and then I’ll finish what I was saying?

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: He said since it’s a military base, are people really allowed to go and live there and fish there and you know about the Marine Protection Area?
Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: I didn’t understand that, you’ll have to repeat that sorry.
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: It’s like er, since the military base is there and the Marine Protection Area is there as well, but are people allowed to go there and live there with the military base and the Marine Protection Area?
Sangeeta Ahuja: These are questions that the feasibility study would need to look at [laughs slightly incredulously]

[Unidentified audience member addresses Claudia, poses question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Since there’s um ... you know in 2016, in 2016 they’re going to review about the policy about the Americans being there. So if they’re still there, so what would happen to us if we go live there, you know with the military base being there?

Sangeeta Ahuja: I really can’t pre-judge the outcome of the feasibility study or the process that ministers decide on, but the fact that you’re raising this is really valuable because I know that’s something that’s on your minds and it’s something that I can factor in to the options we put to ministers.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Unidentified audience member poses question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [translates into English for Sangeeta Ahuja]: Why the government has decided to do it now? Why not before then?

Sangeeta Ahuja: I wasn’t party to that decision sir, but I believe that ministers will have had very good reasons for taking it.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Jimmy Elysee: So what is the purpose of the government doing a survey now? What is it for?

Sangeeta Ahuja: It’s to assess the feasibility of the resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory and I think it’s fair to say that ministers want this to be done in a fair and transparent and open way.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion in Kreol. Question translated by Claudia Naraina]: To the Chagossian there are three leaders talking about resettlement and things like that, but after all this, after you’ve taken our views and questions and everything and after they review the study, what’s going to happen? Are you going to come out and tell us what is happening or do we have to turn to these people for them to tell us?

Sangeeta Ahuja: We will have to work out how best to communicate with you and you’re not the first person who has raised that, so it’s an important point. 

Mary Joyce Broni: Okay, that’s good. 

Jean-Luc Mandarin [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Apart from this, is there anything else still, you know in the process for us to go back to the Chagos, apart from the study that the government is planning now...oh...apart from the study that you, you know the government is planning to do now, is there anything else that they’re doing for, you know, for us to go back?
Sangeeta Ahuja: This is really outside the remit of my work but I believe that there are visits that take place.

Jimmy Elysee: No, he was talking like have we got any case going in the court at the moment against the British government?

Cyndie Residu: Have we got anything going on at the moment in the courts that we’re not aware of?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Um, I’m not really fully....aware...

Audience member 16 (Richard Dunne): I can answer that if you like. The answer is no, not at the moment. There was a Judicial Review on your behalf about the Marine Protected Area. That case was dismissed, was lost in what we call the High Court. So at the moment there are no more legal challenges, right now. 

Jimmy Elysee: When was that case dismissed? What date?

Richard Dunne: In April of this year.

[Multiple audience members ask ‘this year?’]

Richard Dunne: This year. April 22nd.

Sangeeta Ahuja: But the European Court of Human Rights…um, yep. 

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

[Claudia Naraina addresses the audience in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: They are asking why people in Crawley are allowed to go visit the Chagos rather than, you know, we people in Manchester don’t have the opportunity to go visit the Chagos. But they know that a lot of people have been allowed to go and visit the islands from Crawley.

Sangeeta Ahuja: That is really, as I said before, I’m just doing the review on resettlement but if you have particular things that you want me to feed in, then that’s the email address there. Feel free to let me know by email and I will ensure I forward your specific issues or concerns on to those who are responsible for these issues. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

[Richard Dunne quietly asks Sangeeta Ahuja ‘would you like me to ask them some questions directly, like would you like to go to Diego Garcia? Would you like to go to Salomon, or Peros Banhos? Would you like me to...? You might get some more direct views on...shall we try for a few minutes and if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. Yes? I’ll say who I am. So...some of them know. I’ll say I’m not part of the Foreign Office.’ Sangeeta Ahuja says ‘Yeah I don’t...you do what you feel comfortable with’. Richard Dunne says ‘I’m trying to get something more direct from them. What I’m going to try and do is say I’m not from the Foreign Office and shall I put some questions to them and see what views..?.’ Sangeeta Ahuja says to Claudia Naraina: ‘He’s planning to put some questions to them’. Richard Dunne continues ‘if they want to go to Diego Garcia, if they were given a chance, so she then has some answers’. Claudia Naraina says ‘okay’. Richard Dunne says to Claudia Naraina ‘and I’ll do it through you.’ Claudia Naraina says ‘yes, alright’. Richard Dunne says ‘We’ll try that, just for now, because you’re not getting a lot of views’. Claudia Naraina says ‘no, not really’]

[Claudia Naraina introduces Richard Dunne to the audience in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What are you saying to them about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: He’s not from...  
Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: He’s not from
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: your office
Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: No
Richard Dunne: Not from the FCO. So I shall say in English and then let [to Claudia Naraina] I forget your name again

Claudia Naraina [to Richard Dunne]: Claudia 

Richard Dunne: Claudia will translate. You may know me – some of you – probably not. Richard Dunne is my name. I am not from the Foreign Office but I have done a lot of work with Sabrina Jean in Crawley and Olivier Bancoult so I hope I am trying to help you, okay? Now

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol. Audience discussion in Kreol. Unidentified man makes a statement in Kreol]

Richard Dunne: So...can I ask you some questions?

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What did he say?
[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What did he say, sorry?
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: He said he doesn’t believe in these leaders anymore. 
Richard Dunne: No. I am...I am not a leader. I am not a leader.

Claudia Naraina: No, Bancoult. He was talking about Olivier Bancoult.

Richard Dunne: Okay, you don’t believe. I accept. I am not— 

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Richard Dunne]: I would like to hear what he has to say. 

Richard Dunne [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Please, sorry.

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Richard Dunne]: Thank you. [To unidentified man in audience] Please.

[Unidentified man in audience continues to speak in Kreol]
 
Claudia Naraina: Chagossian people don’t have any faith...don’t have faith or... you know they don’t believe in these leaders anymore. They would like to tell to people like you rather than talking to them. 

Richard Dunne: Good, good. But...but may I ask you questions? Not, not, not for Bancoult, not for – but just questions. Would you like to go back...If you were allowed to go back to the Chagos, would you want to go back to Diego Garcia?

Mary Joyce Broni: Yeah, those who were born there.

Cyndie Residu: Yeah, if we live like we are living now. We are not gonna go and start again. 

Richard Dunne: So if you went...Do you all understand? If you went to Diego Garcia, presumably you would like to live in the 21st century. You would like water, electricity, work, telephones, internet…

[Several audience members say ‘Facilities. Everything, yes. Everything. Education…’]

Richard Dunne: Schools? Hospitals?

[Several audience members say ‘Everything, everything’, ‘the same’]

Sangeeta Ahuja: What do you envisage you would do there?

Rebecca Rotter [to Richard Dunne and Sangeeta Ahuja]: Could you let Claudia interpret, just so that everybody? 

Richard Dunne [to Claudia Naraina]: Yes, sorry, do you want to go?

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol. Audience members respond in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja and Richard Dunne]: They’re basically saying that...they’re basically saying that, yeah, if they’re given the opportunity to —

[Audience discussion in Kreol. Claudia Naraina addresses the audience in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: If they’re given

Richard Dunne: Would you all

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: I’m okay now

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: You’re okay
Richard Dunne: Okay. Would you also like to go back to Peros Banhos, Salomon?

[Several audience members say ‘No, no’]

Mary Joyce Broni: (inaudible) born in Diego Garcia so only in Diego Garcia.

Audience member 17: Diego Garcia is the central, is the middle. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: Okay

Audience member 17: Everything is taken around.

Richard Dunne:  So you...

Mary Joyce Broni: Like my mum is born in Diego Garcia so we’re supposed to go where she was born, not in Peros, not in Salomon.

Richard Dunne: Okay, so most of you are from Diego Garcia?

[Several audience members say ‘Diego Garcia’]

Mary Joyce Broni: Yeah, the main island.

Richard Dunne: Most of you here?

Mary Joyce Broni: Yes.

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: This lady here has a question for you after. She’s told me (inaudible). 
Sangeeta Ahuja [to Richard Dunne]: Okay, can I let this lady ask me a question now and carry on with the (inaudible)
Richard Dunne [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Yes, yes, no, I’ll disappear.
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: She’s already asked the question. She’s said some time ago they’ve been told that people from the third generation…so first generation to us is those who were born there, and then um, the second generation is, you know, those who were born from those who come from the island. But third generation, most of them don’t have citizenship. But are you going to do anything about this? Are they going to be included in the study? Will they be allowed to, you know um, to come with their family or have citizenship as well?

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: As I said before, these types of details are ones that I will have to take back with me to London and speak to colleagues there. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: But can I ask you what you envisage doing in the event of a return? 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: How do you envisage life? How would you earn a living?

[Several audience members say ‘Family life’]

Sangeeta Ahuja: How would you earn a living?

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol. Audience discussion]

Jimmy Elysee: Training.

Cyndie Residu: See here? The way we are here. We are working to look after the children. Same life but living down there, not here.

Jimmy Elysee: We need training, like for younger children, like any training going on like [inaudible] on the island. 

Audience member 18: Because the island, because the island [inaudible] many more fish. The industry for fish for the island is, there’s the money.

Richard Dunne: Would you want, would you want to –

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Richard Dunne]: Er, excuse me, er, Richard, this lady over here is asking a question.

[Unidentified audience member poses question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: If those who were born there decide, you know, that they would like to resettle on the island and the younger generation don’t want to, what’s going to happen to the younger ones? Will they be er, still, you know, British or will they have to follow their parents and go back to the island, basically?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Nobody...This process isn’t about making anyone do anything or go somewhere [laughs], but a lot of people have been saying they want to go back so we want to look at whether it’s feasible for those who want to, to go. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: I mean, let me then ask you – how big a community do you think would want to actually go back and to live there?

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol. Audience members respond in Kreol]

Jimmy Elysee: All the natives want to go back 

Cyndie Residu: They’ve been waiting. 

Jimmy Elysee: With the second generation

Sangeeta Ahuja: If you could speak one at a time it would be really helpful so I can really hear, thank you.

Jimmy Elysee: I think all the natives want to go back to the island and er, about second generation I think it’s just something yeah individually because everyone’s got their own mind. Like some people want to go back, some people don’t want to. I think it will have to be decided on just individual case like, how people want to live their life. 

Claudia Naraina: I think it’s most…

Jimmy Elysee: Like you could see just there, some people might not want to go, some people want to go, so...

Sangeeta Ahuja: Okay, that’s fine. Thank you. There was a gentleman there. You wanted to say something.

[Unidentified audience member speaks in Kreol] 

Claudia Naraina: In Mauritius, we had an issue. Like here, if your parents are British, you are also British. But in Mauritius if your parents are, you know, have British citizenship and they’re not married, then the children aren’t allowed, you know, the citizenship.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Okay

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Rebecca Rotter: Could I ask a question? 

Sangeeta Ahuja: Hold on just a moment

Rebecca Rotter: Is anybody here Chagossian from Seychelles, or is everybody...

Audience member 19: Mauritius

Rebecca Rotter: Mauritius?

Audience member 19: Yeah

Rebecca Rotter: And in Manchester do you know anyone from Seychelles?

Claudia Naraina: Yes, yes, we have some, yes.

Sangeeta Ahuja: UK visa policy applies to everyone without exception. 

[Unidentified audience member makes comment in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [To audience member]: Okay I’ll answer you when you come back to the extent that I can. There was a lady at the back in a white t-shirt, you wanted to speak.

Mary Joyce Broni [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Will we get, if we ever have the chance to go back to the Chagos – we’re talking about the younger generation here – will we have the opportunity to develop our own business? You know like the younger generation will have er, the opportunity to erm, to have like training, you know to earn their own money, develop their own businesses, and we’ve got education and schools and er, hospitals and nurses and things like that? Develop our own island. 
Sangeeta Ahuja: Yeah, these questions about livelihoods development are important and I’m glad you raised them. Thank you.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: There was also someone over here who was wanting to speak when I –

Audience member 20 [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: Since Chagos is based in the UK, it’s a UK overseas territory, like the future generation, is it going to be counted as British, erm, are we going to be counted as British? Not only us, future generations, those who are going to be born there if we are allowed to go back of course? Are they going to be born British?

[Audience member 20 continues in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: There are sixty-five islands according to him and are all these sixty-five islands part of the BIOT and will we be still, you know, British citizenship and future generations, are they going to be British?

Sangeeta Ahuja: You know, at the moment we are clear about the sovereignty of BIOT.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So we are clear about the sovereignty of BIOT, but sovereignty issues are outside the scope of my work. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: But I hear how important these issues are to you and you are not the only person who has raised this question tonight. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: So I will ensure – that is the whole point of this consultation – I will ensure that those views are expressed.

[Audience members pose questions in Kreol]

[Claudia Naraina translates Sangeeta Ahuja’s statement into Kreol]

[Marcel Alexis? poses question in Kreol] 

[Audience members and Claudia Naraina say ‘British’]

Claudia Naraina: They said people who were born on these islands and on Diego Garcia, are they British? 

[Marcel Alexis? poses questions in Kreol] 

Claudia Naraina: Who are they?

[Will Clement? poses questions in Kreol] 

Claudia Naraina: They said because

[Marcel Alexis? poses questions in Kreol] 

Claudia Naraina: Because they were born...you know, the Chagossians who were born there, it’s their island. It belongs to them. 

[Marcel Alexis? poses questions in Kreol] 

Claudia Naraina: So he wants to know, basically, who these islands belong to.

[Marcel Alexis? asks what’s her [Sangeeta Ahuja’s] response?] 

Sangeeta Ahuja: But I already answered the question, so I will repeat that. We are clear about the sovereignty of BIOT.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: I don’t think it’s about sovereignty.

Sangeeta Ahuja: You’re asking me about nationality issues. 

[Several audience members say ‘Yes’]

Richard Dunne: Yes, in part.

Sangeeta Ahuja: In part.

[Audience members speak in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: They said since it belongs to the UK, why the government of Mauritius keeps saying that these islands belong to them?

Sangeeta Ahuja: But it is a question of sovereignty and that is not what I am here to discuss with you. But I understand- I have understood that these issues are really important to you: the question of the sovereignty of the islands, the nationality of any resettlers, and your desire to remain British and not Mauritian, which is something that the lady there mentioned. So I have heard that and I will ensure that I reflect that in the views that we put to ministers.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Will Clement makes a statement in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: He’s only...he’s not really asking a question. He’s just saying that since he was born under the British sovereignty, so he’s considered, you know, he knows that he’s British and he’s not Mauritian, since he was born there. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: Is there anything else that anyone would like to raise or to bring to my attention or to say about resettlement issues? 

Jimmy Elysee: What about, you know like, the natives, the old people, with their pension, they are classed as British citizens but when they go to Mauritius if they overstay six months, they [the UK government] cut the pension. So why is that?

Sangeeta Ahuja [Laughing]: I’m really not an expert in pension rules. This is not my area of expertise. Um.

Jimmy Elysee: I mean because I would like you, like you said, to express that question as well. Because some people want to go back sometimes to Mauritius sometimes and if they overstay six months, their pension is cancelled, so. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: I understand that, yeah.

Jimmy Elysee: I don’t think that’s fair at all, so.

Sangeeta Ahuja: As I understand it these rules are complex but are applied fairly, but I will ensure that I communicate that to my colleagues in London.

Audience member 21 [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: The Chagossians, the native ones who aren’t living here in the UK but living in Mauritius – and those who are living here actually – would like to live in Mauritius but, you know, still having their pension there and having the same lifestyle as they have here in this country. But this is not happening because they live there but because living there they are not entitled to anything that they are entitled here in the UK. 
[Audience member 21 continues in Kreol]
Claudia Naraina: Her parents aren’t happy here. They would rather live in Mauritius because they had, you know
[Audience member 21 continues in Kreol]
Claudia Naraina: But if they have everything that, you know, they’re getting here, they will rather live there but with the same, you know the same entitlements and everything. 
[Audience members speak in Kreol]
Claudia Naraina: And the weather condition as well, which is a factor. 
Mary Joyce Broni [in Kreol, translated by Claudia Naraina]: There’s a large community of Chagossians still living in Mauritius. Those who were able, you know, had the opportunity to have the money actually to come here, are here, but those who are left there are left there because they don’t have, you know, the opportunity or the money to come over here. But instead of doing all this, you know, why not take all these people from Mauritius and bring them over here for them to have a better life, rather than leaving them there or asking them to go back or asking them about their views on going back to their island? Why not looking for these people in Mauritius and bring them over here for them to have a better life?
[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: As I understand it this has come from a desire for people to go and live on BIOT so that is what this study…

Mary Joyce Broni: It will be like the, they will do like the fifth unroof again, you know? They have been unroofed from Diego Garcia to Mauritius, unroofed to Mauritius from here, and here….I know everybody don’t have the same mind to think because we are not [inaudible] for me myself instead to use a lot of money to do that feasibility everything, why don’t you give them the chance to be here, give them some work, give them a good quality of life? Instead now they want, after forty years they want to do feasibility, they want to send people back? It will not be the same.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Can I be clear? I don’t think this is about sending people anywhere. It’s about the feasibility of people who —

Mary Joyce Broni: If the feasibility was done and then they said they decided ‘okay, now we want to send them back because it’s okay for them to be on their island, we want to send them back’, so whatever they said, maybe it will be the same thing like they have done in the past: whether you like it or not you are going back.

Sangeeta Ahuja: I do believe that the world is a different place to how it was forty years ago and the kinds of decisions that were taken then would not be taken now. I do believe that. [To Claudia Naraina] if you could repeat that, if you could translate that.

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: What did he say?
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Can he ask a question?
Sangeeta Ahuja: Yah, please!

[Audience member 22 asks question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: He said the British government are helping a lot of people around the world but there are British citizens living in Mauritius and not getting any help from the British government. 
Sangeeta Ahuja: Okay. [To audience member 22] Thank you for raising that [To Claudia Naraina] Is there a question in there? Did he ask a question?

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Yes, actually, he said why the government aren’t helping these people to come here rather than come, Mauritius like the UK citizens living in Mauritius, they aren’t getting any help from the UK government but the UK government are doing a lot of things around the world for other people but not helping his own people, you know, that are trapped there. Why aren’t they given the opportunity to come here?

[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: They’re having a conversation amongst themselves.
[Claudia Naraina addresses audience in Kreol. Audience members respond in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: They think that Chagossian people aren’t very supported by the government, whether they are there or here. Some of them leave Mauritius and come here, they are not well supported when they come to the country, rather than other people are being given houses and they are being helped financially. But these people aren’t getting all these benefits.

[Audience member 23 speaks in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: Some people are working very hard to allow their family in Mauritius to come here, but now with all these new rules you have to earn so much for you to be able to bring your family over here. 

[Audience member 23 continues in Kreol; man in audience speaks at the same time] 

Claudia Naraina: Says that the Chagossians mustn’t be treated the same way as the others. 

[Audience member 23 continues in Kreol; man in audience speaks at the same time] 

Claudia Naraina: Chagossian people mustn’t be treated the same way as er, some, you know, other from a different –

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: [inaudible] did she?
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Yes, differently. Because they are not given the opportunities to come here as for other people. Some of them are allowed to come here for free, but since the Chagossians, they, you know, born in British territory, they must be allowed to come here for free or at least, you know, with help.
[Audience discussion in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: They know, they know that some of these questions aren’t related to your role, but since, you know, they are having the opportunity to raise a lot of issues, so they’re taking the opportunity to tell you what their views are.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Please do! Please do!

[Claudia instructs the audience to continue] 

[Several people speak. Mary Joyce makes statement in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: They would like to have somebody 
[Mary Joyce Broni continues to speak in Kreol]
Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Next time, they would like you to come back to bring somebody with you, you know, from maybe the immigration to discuss this issue more deeply actually. You know, that the Chagossians are treated differently from other foreign people.
Sangeeta Ahuja: I can’t make any promises on that, but I will take your points with me. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Audience members speak in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: Or somebody they could talk to – somebody they could talk to – relating to this issue. 

[Audience members speak in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: This is the main issue that they would like to raise actually, to tell the government about: that they have a lot of, you know, immigration issues – Chagossians are having a lot of immigration issues. Since they are Chagossians, they mustn’t be having these kinds of problems.

[Unidentified audience member speaks in Kreol] 

Claudia Naraina [to Richard Dunne]: This lady is actually talking to you now Richard. She is saying that since you have worked with Sabrina and you’ve worked with Olivier, maybe you know a lot more, you know, you know a lot more than us, and if you know anything about immigration or somebody that can come and talk to us about immigration issues, we would really appreciate it. 
Cyndie Residu: Do you think we can get somebody? 

Richard Dunne: I know it is extremely complicated and it is complicated because it is the law of this country in 2002, and the law of the country, when it comes to Chagossians, some changes were made in 2002 which allowed only some of your generations to come here, but excluded others, and all I can say is, um, I think it’s true that the Minister in Crawley, the Minister in Parliament there, Henry Smith, he knows and everyone in Crawley I think made pretty much the same points that you have made, that immigration is a problem. And it is true that Henry Smith, the MP, said he would go forward and he would talk with the Home Office – the people in this country who deal with it – but it is very complex. It isn’t really a problem, I know, for the Foreign Office. 

Mary Joyce Broni: No, we know. 

Richard Dunne: They can’t change it.

Mary Joyce Broni: This is what we are saying. 

Richard Dunne: But I think it’s heard –

Mary Joyce Broni: Our next step will be if nobody will do anything, we will a lodge a case ourselves. 

Richard Dunne: And Sabrina knows that it is a problem. All of those in Crawley – because I was there last week – the know it is a problem and – I can’t do anything but they are trying to.

Mary Joyce Broni: This is what we are trying to do. This is our problem. We will gather everybody and then we will lodge a case at the court and see where we can go. 

Richard Dunne: Well you, you, it’s not a case of going to court, I think. It’s a case of your Member of Parliament either here and there.

Mary Joyce Broni: No, we will see what we can do, you know. We will see. 

Richard Dunne: There is a –

Mary Joyce Broni: You know there’s a lot of people who have a good opportunity but for us...because they are using the island, they have money every year. They see that Chagossian people have closed their eyes, so now we will do what we can do. 

Richard Dunne: I understand fully, but the problem is –

[Mary Joyce Broni repeats what she said in Kreol]

Richard Dunne: It’s fifty years [To Sangeeta Ahuja] I mean you heard this again in Crawley, of course it’s not really something that you can, really the crux of stuff you need, but it’s something that Henry Smith the MP said he would take forward in Crawley, and it’s really for them here to go to their MP as well, but it’s hard to say with such a small community. Crawley is a big community and they can push Henry Smith but that, it’s politics, isn’t it, really? It’s difficult. Look what fifty years has done. It’s a mess.

[Audience member speaks in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: Chagossian community in Manchester feel really, really unsupported. It seems that Crawley, because they are a large, you know, a large community there, they seems to be getting a lot of help but since we are a small community here, we don’t know who to go to, you know, when we have a problem regarding anything. It could be anything but we don’t know who to go to, where to go to. But in Crawley it seems very easy to go see an MP or anybody.

Rebecca Rotter: Are you in contact with the groups in Crawley, like UK Chagos Support Association, CRG?

Claudia Naraina: No, we don’t.

Mary Joyce Broni: We have only one women’s group here and that’s it. 

Jimmy Elysee: First of all, like, how many group does the Foreign Office recognise, do you know, about the –

Mary Joyce Broni [simultaneously]: I have been with Olivier Bancoult and now we are separately talking with Toto but they know nothing about us. We don’t have any information. We want to have

Claudia Naraina [simultaneously]: There’s a lot of leaders that come here making a lot of promises then we don’t hear anything. We would like to go somewhere or to somebody to be able to raise issues and discuss about any problems we have.

[Audience discussion]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well I thank you all very much – sorry, you had another question, didn’t you? Sorry.

Jimmy Elysee: Yeah I wanted to know how many groups like the government recognises, Chagossian groups, like legally, d’you know?

Sangeeta Ahuja: I’m not I’m afraid but I know that I live in a democratic society where groups can form and it’s a matter of…

Richard Dunne: I think it recognises them all, but er –

Jimmy Elysee: And how many have we got?

Sangeeta Ahuja: I don’t believe that any of them are in any way proscribed organisations, are they?

Richard Dunne: No, they’re not excluded. I mean I know of- you probably all know, we have Allen – if I pronounce his name correctly – Vincatassin. We have him. We have UK Chagos Association, the government knows that exists and that’s Sabrina and many others. The CRG – Chagos Refugee Group – both in Mauritius and here. There are some more organisations in Crawley. I think there’s one called the Chagos Island Community one. 

Rebecca Rotter: There’s Toto and Jenny.

Richard Dunne: And so I know of about four or five or so, and I think the BIOT knows they all, the government knows they all exist.

Mary Joyce Broni: Who is the main body?

Richard Dunne: I don’t know. Well there isn’t one because you have so many, you see.

Unidentified audience member: Yeah, there are so many. That’s why we don’t know who. 

Richard Dunne: And, and you all have. It’s good. You all have different views, and the CRG has different views from Allen Vincatassin’s group. Because some of you are from Diego, some of you are from Salomon, some are from Peros. And what I have learned is that those who are from a particular island would like to go back to that island so Diego Garcians don’t want to go to Peros Banhos or Salomon but Peros Banhos and Salomon want to go back there. So you all have good, different views.

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: You’ve got to translate that.
Jimmy Elysee: Does the government fund the groups? 

Richard Dunne: No, I don’t think so. I very much doubt it. 

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Jimmy Elysee]: What did you say sorry?
Richard Dunne [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Do they fund those groups? And I think it’s very unlikely.

Sangeeta Ahuja: But we do, I am aware that the government does provide some funding for activities relating to…um…

Richard Dunne: Conservation

Sangeeta Ahuja: Cons...Well activities relating to BIOT and has taken some individuals on expeditions there. But would you be interested? I mean I think –

Richard Dunne: You are. You’re involved.

Sangeeta Ahuja: You’re involved, aren’t you?

Richard Dunne: Jimmy is with ZSL.

Jimmy Elysee: Up to now we’ve not had really no one from Manchester going. It’s all about Crawley. And we do have like Chagossians in Manchester who really want to go but we don’t hear about them things. I was asking about funding. So if they’re getting funding there, people in Manchester don’t benefit from that. 

Cyndie Residu: We don’t get anything else, no.

Richard Dunne: I don’t think they get funding directly, but as Sangeeta says…

Sangeeta Ahuja: There are programmes.

Richard Dunne: they organise visits to the Chagos.

Cyndie Residu: Not even that. We know about that but nothing been happened for here, even to visit Chagos or whatever.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well now you know how to get in touch.

Richard Dunne: Yes. But maybe you from this group need to talk to Sabrina and say ‘some of us, if there is a visit this October, some of us want to go’.

Jimmy Elysee: What I’ve heard about the visits is if you’re family with the person concerned, so obviously your name goes forward. It don’t matter. Obviously there’s native and there’s people there, I don’t think it’s been dealing in a fair way at all because like I say, it’s all about Crawley and we don’t know anything about it. 

Richard Dunne: Shall I, shall I say, tomorrow I will write to Sabrina and I will say please could she contact the Manchester people because I believe that there may be a visit later this year. I will say that some of you would like your names to go forward, yes? That’s the best I can do. And I will do it for you –

Rebecca Rotter: Also if you’re on Facebook, the UK Chagos Support Association has a page on Facebook and they do posts about things that are happening. Because they’re supposed to be like an umbrella, so they’re not, it’s not just CRG, it’s...it’s all the groups. 

Jimmy Elysee: What I would like to say as well as you can see in Crawley you’ve got a lot of Chagossian people but it’s all divided. You’ve got four or five groups. Like here in Manchester we’re just one. 

Richard Dunne: One big family

Jimmy Elysee: One community. And we just want to do like in whatsoever what the people in Crawley is benefiting, so we just want the same. Just us, we just unite altogether. There’s not like one group here, two groups there. It’s just the whole community are one in Manchester. So it will be good to do like, you came here personally today to speak to us, because otherwise people will just say what they want to say like they’ve been saying and we won’t know anything about it. 

Richard Dunne: It is true that [to Jimmy Elysee and Claudia Naraina] both of you two, I know, have been involved though in this conservation work through ZSL, which is BIOT-funded and supported. Are there any others? 

[Jean-Luc Mandarin is identified]

Richard Dunne: You too? Anymore?

Claudia Naraina: There’s Cyndie

Richard Dunne: You know as well? Yes.

Cyndie Residu: Yes

Richard Dunne: So three of them here, you have been involved to a small extent, yes? So far. The visits. I will tell Sabrina the visits. I will tell her.

Claudia Naraina [to Richard Dunne]: Can I ask you something, Richard? 

Richard Dunne: Yes

Claudia Naraina: Does Sabrina have anything to do with the Conservation Trust?

Richard Dunne: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I go along because I’m a scientist. I go to their meetings to listen to what is being done, and they will have a meeting, the Conservation Trust will have a meeting on the 18th of November and I will go to hear what work is being done. But Sabrina, I don’t think she has direct contact with them.

Claudia Naraina: But she organises visits to go to the islands?

Richard Dunne: No, she doesn’t organise them. What happens, as I understand it, is that the BIOT section gets in touch with the main group leaders so now it would be Sabrina – before it was Roch Evenor who was the leader – Allen, I think Olivier in Mauritius and maybe one or two others, and they ask for names to be put forward and I think there is a big visit being planned this year. 

Rebecca Rotter: I don’t think it’s happening. 

Richard Dunne: Oh, okay, Rebecca says she doesn’t think it’s happening. I don’t know. But what I will do is I’ll say that Manchester people, Manchester Chagossians want to be involved in those visits, and I’ll make it very clear, and that is the best I can do for you. 

Jimmy Elysee: Will the government help us, the people in Manchester, to build our own group and to deal directly with you? Because like we’ve heard a lot about people in Crawley, like I’ve just said. There’s a lot of division. We’re, at the end of the day we’re just one community so why have we got four or five groups? It don’t make sense at all. 

Richard Dunne: I understand, yeah.

Jimmy Elysee: I do understand that people have got different views but at the end of the day I think if...like here you can see the difference, everyone unites. I mean we’re all united, we’re just one community. There’s not like two, three, four, or five groups. 

Jean-Luc Mandarin: [inaudible] too much groups. This is one community [inaudible]. 

Jimmy Elysee: I think that way people in Manchester will benefit more rather than relying on people in Crawley which we don’t know nothing about. Nothing.

[Claudia Naraina asks the audience in Kreol whether there are any further questions]

Sangeeta Ahuja: We’ve just got another ten minutes or so, so please do make good use of the time. If you have any questions let me know.

[Unidentified audience member poses question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Since the American base is there, if we have the chance to go back to the islands, are we going to still to be under the UK government then, or?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well these are interesting, good questions and I, you know, as I said earlier when the same question was put, I have heard that that’s an issue for you. 

Cyndie Residu: What d’you think then?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well I’ll have to put options to ministers and assimilate these views. It’s not...what I think isn’t…

Cyndie Residu: Do you know how long that going to take us to get in touch with you again about what we’ve been talking about?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Well I, the period for this initial consultation I’ve set to the end of July, so if it is at all possible for you to write to me by then, I would really appreciate it. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

[Unidentified audience member poses question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Since now you’re taking the questions and views from us, Chagossians, how about our future generations, the younger ones? Are they going to be taken into account as well?

Sangeeta Ahuja: Yeah, I mean I think these are questions that will need to be factored into how the feasibility study will be conducted

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: and it will be for ministers to make these decisions.

[Marcel Alexis approaches the table at the front of the room where Sangeeta Ahuja and Claudia Naraina sit, and rests on edge of table. Addresses question to Sangeeta Ahuja in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: He said when we had the, when compensation was paid, you know forty years ago, when the compensation, you know, was paid to the Mauritian government. 

[Marcel Alexis continues in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: He thinks that, erm,

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Marcel Alexis]: Do take a seat, sir. Please take a seat.

Claudia Naraina: He says that he thinks that –

[Marcel Alexis continues in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: He believes that, er, the compensation that has been paid to them back then, you know, forty years ago, has been paid to the Mauritian government and they’ve not been really fair to them and they’ve not been given all the compensation that’s been given to them. 

[Marcel Alexis addresses Sangeeta Ahuja in Kreol. Audience members laugh]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: Did you get that?

Sangeeta Ahuja [to Claudia Naraina]: Yeah, I heard his statement, thank you. 

[Claudia Naraina confirms in Kreol that Sangeeta Ahuja understood. Marcel Alexis, who remains close to Sangeeti Ahuja at the table, poses another question to Sangeeta Ahuja in Kreol. Audience members laugh]

Claudia Naraina [to Sangeeta Ahuja]: What do you think? What do you think about it? About the compensation that has been paid –

Sangeeta Ahuja [sternly]: I am here sir, to talk to you about the feasibility study announced by Mr Simmonds on the 8th of July. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: The question of past historical compensation is not within the remit of my work. 

[Claudia Naraina translates into Kreol]

Sangeeta Ahuja: but I understand that that is an issue for you and I will make sure that that is communicated to my colleagues in London.

Marcel Alexis: Okay, okay. 

[Audience discussion, shushing]

[Unidentified audience member poses question in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: He thinks that there are too many groups in the Chagossian community. Too many groups and sometimes they don’t know who to go to and, er, where to go to. And er, if like we could be just one community and one person would come and talk to us as one, not as many groups, it would be good.

Sangeeta Ahuja: Thank you. Is there anyone else who has a question or has any views particularly?

[Unidentified audience member makes statement in Kreol]

Claudia Naraina: He would like to go and at least visit, see, the island, because since he was born there and then, you know, went to Mauritius, he has never seen it again.

Sangeeta Ahuja [tersely]: We understand that. That is why we organise visits so please do get in touch. 

[Audience discussion]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Anyone else have any further points on? So thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate your taking, erm, you know, the evening out to come and talk to me about these issues. Erm, thank you.

[Multiple audience members thank Sangeeta Ahuja]

[Meeting closes]

-END OF TRANSCRIPT-