UK FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (FCO) - BRITISH INDIAN OCEAN TERRITORY (BIOT) POLICY REVIEW
Public Meeting
19:30-21:00, 18/07/2013
Charis Centre, Crawley, UK

Speakers/Organisers:
Sangeeta Ahuja, FCO Policy Review Team Leader
Melanie Capelin, FCO Policy Review Team
Lowri Griffiths, FCO Legal Adviser
Martin Longden, BIOT Deputy Commissioner
Jo Bowyer, Acting BIOT Administrator
Henry Smith, MP for Crawley 

Interpreter: 
Pascaline Cotte

Audience members:
Approximately 250-300 Chagossians, including
Sabrina Jean, UK Chagos Refugees Group
Joseph Bertrand, British Chagossian Community Crawley
Allen Vincatassin, Diego Garcian Society Crawley
Bernadette Dugasse, Chagos Seychelles Committee UK
Frankie Bontemps, Chagos Islands Welfare Group
Hengride Permal, Chagos Island Community Association
Other interested parties, including:

Other participants:
Richard Dunne, Barrister and coral reef scientist
Rebecca Rotter, University of Edinburgh
Philippa Gregory, Patron UK Chagos Support Association
Lou Dawson, UK Chagos Support Association

Transcript of proceedings

Henry Smith: I hope to see the possibility of resettlement for people who want to return. I don’t believe the MPA is necessarily a barrier to resettlement. The government wants to hear questions and comments on feasibility of resettlement of the Chagos. If anyone needs help, I am always ready to help. On the issue of visas, which is a separate issue from what we’re talking about tonight, I am hoping to establish a meeting with Home Office ministers soon to discuss that. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: On the 20th December 2012 William Hague said he would review the policy of resettlement of BIOT. Ministers have discussed the British government policy and agreed that the policy towards the Chagossians should be reviewed. On 8th July 2013 Mark Simmonds announced his intention to do another feasibility study into resettlement of BIOT. My role is to start a process of engaging with all those with an interest in BIOT. The purpose of this part of the planning of the review is to give ministers options for how to proceed. In the consultation process I will speak to as many people as possible, including Chagossians in Crawley, Seychelles and Mauritius. I would like to hear your views on resettlement and a new feasibility study. 

Audience member 1 (Bernadette Dugasse): I would like to know what was wrong with the old feasibility study you did a couple of years ago.

Sangeeta Ahuja: I personally am not from the BIOT administration so I’m not fully engaged or have a history on all of these policies. I know there have been different views on the past feasibility study and ministers have decided to conduct a new one. What do you want it to cover? What are the questions you’d like to see addressed?

Audience member 2 (Frankie Bontemps): Is the feasibility study just for Diego Garcia or the whole of Chagos? 

Sangeeta Ahuja: I don’t know the answer. It will be ministers to decide when we put options to them. What would you like to see the feasibility study cover?

Frankie Bontemps: The whole archipelago including 55 islands

Audience members: 65

Frankie Bontemps: I am Frankie Bontemps, Chairman of the Chagos Islanders Welfare Group. The main objective of the group is the right of return, free movement including to Diego. We don’t envisage a security threat with the presence of Chagossians as there are already around 2,000 civilians working at the military base. We are not against the presence of the base – it is an opportunity for Chagossians to get jobs. Many Chagossians are still not settled in the UK and still face problems such as the immigration issue. Although it’s not the right forum, I have to address the problem because we have representatives of the FCO here. We think that there should be an exception in the British nationality law concerning the Chagossians because the Chagossians are the only British citizens who cannot go whenever they want to their country. There are language barriers as English is not the first language. In Crawley there are 2,000-3,000 Chagossians, and there are sometimes housing issues. Sometimes there are even staff from the Crawley Borough council who tell Chagossians to go back to their land. The British government has not done anything to welcome the Chagossians in the UK, to facilitate their integration into society. For these obvious reasons, we don’t feel we are settled here and that is why we want to go back. If we go back, we want the whole archipelago; not the outer islands but all 65.

[Applause]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Thank you. You raised some issues that are relevant for resettlement. We are listening, taking a note. Perhaps later I’ll give an opportunity to my colleagues from BIOT on the broader issues raised that are outside the scope of my work. I’d like to hear from others in the room.

Audience member 3 (Sabrina Jean): I am Sabrina Jean, Chairperson of the CRG UK. I want to know what is the position of the US government concerning the BIOT policy review on the resettlement plan? The UK government doesn’t have enough power. The MPA was declared without the inclusion of the Chagossians. For this reason, CRG and other groups are fighting for the MPA. We want Chagossians to be included. Now we are doing training for young people. When we go to Chagos, we only visit Salomon, Peros and Diego. Those who do the training are visiting 35-38 islands. I would like Chagossians to have the preference to visit all the islands if needed, just as the trainees do. Like Frankie said, we would like a full resettlement including Diego Garcia. We can live there with the base because it’s far from areas that would be settled. Filipinos and Sri Lankans can stay. Why not Chagossians? We face lots of problems in the UK. The big problem is housing, where it’s very expensive for us. I would like if the UK government can build houses for Chagossians. We are waiting for our right of return. 

[Applause]

Bernadette Dugasse: My name is Bernadette Dugasse. I was born on Diego Garcia. When we return, I would like the government to rebuild our houses, rebuild roads, hospitals, schools. We want to be taught in English and French. We want to work with the Americans. We want to be free like we were before. We want them to give us transport so we can go in and out of our island when we want and we don’t want them to pressure us to go as soon as possible. We want to go when we are ready. What I want most of all: you promised us a pension for life. We want our pension now. 

[Applause]

Audience member 4 (Rena Anest): I’m a descendent. We don’t want to be sent back and forth all the time. We’re humans. When you finished establishing your base there it was our ancestors who were there - if they return, what will they do? 

[Applause] 

[Rena Anest says the remainder of her statement in Seychellois Kreol (English translation inaudible)]

Henry Smith: I receive hundreds of emails every day but it’s very usual not to get a response. Perhaps you have my wrong email address. I’ll give you my details now.

[Henry Smith gives Rena Anest his card]

[Applause]

Rena Anest: Thank you very much. Concerning people like us, the young people, descendants with passports. We still have children behind us that we have to support. There are a lot of people that don’t speak English here. When these people go places they're treated like dogs. We don't want to just sit here and listen to you: listen to us as well.

[Applause]

Audience member 5 (Xavier Siatous): My name is Xavier. These people sacrificed their life to give the world security and give these people the security of the world. 

[Pascaline Cotte seeks to clarify. Xavier Siatous continues but the meaning of his statements is difficult to decipher. Audience members ask him to stop. Sangeeta Ahuja says that she wants to hear what he has to say. Xavier Siatous walks to the front of the room to speak to Sangeeta Ahuja]. 

[Audience commotion]

Xavier Siatous: The point is that if we return back home, it’s very dangerous. The first danger is world security and terrorism. The second danger is the radioactivity of the islands. The third danger is tsunamis. 

Sabrina Jean: I would like to say that of all the people here today, most of us would like to return back to our islands.

[Applause. Audience commotion. Pascaline Cotte repeats the points Xavier Siatous raised. Applause]

Audience member 6 (Unidentified): Supposedly we got passports to remove us from difficulty, but it's a further uprooting because some people get them and other people do not...I've got 5 brothers and 2 sisters, amongst whom only 3 have got passports, the rest are in Mauritius... To make my family come here I think I need £18,000 in my hand...We were supposed to be given a passport. The passport has split us again. Some of us have it, some of us don’t. It’s dividing us. How am I supposed to get hold of £18,000 to get my family to England? What’s the point of giving me a passport if my family is in Mauritius and I’m here? 

[Applause]

Sangeeta Ahuja: I’m sure there are many other people who would like to speak but I’d like to pause for a moment and address some of the points that have been made. I’d like to underline that the MPA – the so-called No Take MPA – is not a bar on resettlement. It can be revised. In the event of a decision to resettle the islands, steps would need to be taken to ensure that provision for the MPA would be made. Any future feasibility study will need to include a consideration of how to mitigate environmental impacts. 

Sabrina Jean: I’d like to say something about what you said. When you said you will have a review about the MPA, it’s good. But it will be a review where all Chagossians will be allowed to fish, because most Chagossians like fishing?

Sangeeta Ahuja: As it stands, the MPA does allow for artisan fishing. It’s not entrenched, which is a legal term, and therefore does allow flexibility. I’m not here to make commitments to you. The results of these consultations will inform the detail of any new study. This study will be commissioned by the government and we will ensure that independent views from all interested parties will be used when considering how we take the study forward. As I understand it, Ministers intend to make the remit of the study of resettlement as broad as possible, so that all the relevant issues – practical, financial, legal, environmental and defence – are given proper consideration. I will consolidate the views I hear throughout the consultation and put those to ministers. There are some issues raised today that are outside the remit of my work and I would turn to my colleague from the BIOT administration to speak to those.

Henry Smith: The main purpose of this evening is to hear your views on the study of resettlement of the Chagos islands. I recognise there are other issues the Chagos community in Crawley are facing. Two have already been mentioned – housing and passports for second generation members of the community. On housing: if anyone has an issue and the council can’t help them, please let me know. On passports: I’m seeking a meeting with the Home Office because the issue of passports for second and third generations Chagossians is a unique situation so it needs special attention. 

Sangeeta Ahuja: One small point – some are more expert than me. The current regulation of the MPA allows for subsistence fishing, not artisan fishing. I apologise for my mistake. 

Audience member 7 (Unidentified): What’s the difference?

Sangeeta Ahuja: I don’t know. I think it’s the terminology. Can I say that if you’d like me to found out what subsistence fishing means, I can find out for you and get back?

Audience member 8 (Richard Dunne): Can I speak? Some of you know me. My name is Richard Dunne. I’ve been working on the Chagos for two years. Under the regulations of the MPA, it is not artisan fishing as known internationally. Artisan fishing means that you can fish, you can sell your fish, you can give it away, you can make a living from your fishing. There is a law in the Chagos called the 2007 Fishery Ordinance and that allows you to fish for personal consumption for three days and fish cannot be frozen, bartered, sold or bought. That is what Sangeeta says when she says subsistence fishing. 

[Applause]

Sangeeta Ahuja: Thank you. In the event of resettlement, steps would need to be taken to ensure that provision for the MPA was consistent with resettlement. 

Martin Longden: My name’s Martin Longden and I’m the Deputy Commissioner for the British Indian Ocean Territory. Some questions, all of which have been very relevant and important, I might be able to answer. Some of them I can’t answer. This is a personal comment: When this British government think about what happened in the Chagos islands in the 1960s and 1970s, it’s very difficult, it’s very hard to explain and to justify. There are lots of generations in this room today. People of my generation and younger – I was born in 1973 when the last people left Chagos – all of it is desperately uncomfortable and ministers have said that what happened was wrong. Working out today as Sangeeta and colleagues are trying to do about how you make that right is more difficult, honestly. You know that the British government has taken a consistent view that it’s not feasible or practical to resettle the islands, and there are also the other defence considerations. It would be tempting with you all here to make promises and I’m not going to do that. I will make one promise: that we will look at all of these issues fairly, we will look at these issues with you, and we will be more transparent and more open and more honest about how we reach the conclusions in the future. A lot of you have talked about passports, nationality, pensions and housing. In Mauritius I was talking to Olivier Bancoult and Fernand Mandarin and they raised many of the same issues. But I’m afraid I’m not really responsible for those issues. They are complicated issues and things like nationality law and social security law are well above my own understanding. I will make sure that ministers are told about the issues you’ve raised. One more point – somebody spoke about the Americans. The Americans are important stakeholders for us too in BIOT for obvious reasons. I went to Washington recently to talk to them about this review and I told them honestly and they understood that we want to have another look at this issue and it’s important that we look at this issue and other issues that relate to BIOT and the US, we will have to wait and see what comes out of these discussions. We’ll need to do the review first before we talk about other issues. I am having very frank and open discussions with the US and will continue to. 

[Applause]

Sangeeta Ahuja: We’re here to hear your views. I know that there are people waiting. 

Audience member 9 (Jacqueline Chetty): they just spoke about what they’ve done to us and they say that they wish they could make it right. Let me tell them now they’re never going to make it right, because they’ve destroyed the Chagossian people, they’ve destroyed our families, they’ve destroyed our culture and they’ve destroyed our dignity 

[Applause]

Jacqueline Chetty: It’s been more than forty years and we’ve been struggling to try and at least prove to you that we own a country like everyone else in this whole world and I’ve never heard in history that a people can’t belong to their country. Now you’ve come to say that you want to talk with us, hear our views on the resettlement of the islands. I want to ask you one question: it’s a well-known fact to the British government that these people here are naive and this is why you keep playing with us. At least this time give us something concrete. Stop having us come to meetings like this and nothing is done.  
	
Audience member 10 (Jose Alexi): Exactly! Yes!

Jacqueline Chetty: These people, all of the natives, are getting older and after forty years, after the British government destroyed our lives, we now we are here, after between twelve and fifteen years in the UK we’re still struggling. Our families are still split. We still don’t have anywhere to live. We’re still begging and we’re still like dogs like she (Rena Anest) said earlier. 

Rena Anest: Yeah, we are not dogs!

Jacqueline Chetty: When you took us from our island and after this court settlement and everything you wanted to do, you never got us involved and you never wanted to hear our opinion. Why now this time do you want us to come here and hear our views on resettlement? What do we have there in Diego Garcia or the Chagos islands? It’s all been destroyed. I’m talking as a native, not as a descendent. I don’t want to go back there because what I had there has been destroyed. I’ve got nothing left there. The only good thing that this government has probably done is this MPA, which a lot of people don’t understand the good behind it. That’s the only thing good that’s been done for the islands. Pretending that they’re protecting our island when they’ve already destroyed it. Taking us as fools as usual. One more thing: when you did all this, taking us from the islands and all the settlement that’s happened over the years, there’s always been discrimination. Why is it that different groups of people – like people from the Seychelles – have never been recognised? We were born in Chagos the same. If I was Mauritian I would still feel ashamed. The British government should be ashamed. What you gave the people of Mauritius was nothing. It didn’t improve their lives. They are still the same, although I think they should have given more, we never got a cent from the British government. 

Jose Alexi: I don’t believe anything about you. Sorry. You are liars. 

Jacqueline Chetty: This is why I want to know now why do we have to come here and listen to you and believe the words you say? Most of us live in Crawley. We are just as poor as we were in Mauritius and Seychelles. We’re still struggling. Nothing has been improved. Why didn’t you leave us in Seychelles and Mauritius? Why give us the passport to come here, making all those people believe they can have a better future when it’s worse for them? It’s worse because they can’t speak English, they can’t get a proper job. They’re like slaves, we all are. So it’s time to stop this slavery. Come up with something concrete and when you have it, come and discuss it with us. 

[Applause]

Jose Alexi: If you were conscious of what you did, you would take responsibility for it. We still don’t know how the government has paid compensation. Deportation like animals ... The people here today still don't know how much was paid to Mauritius (Government)... There were imbeciles...If there hadn't been leak in the judiciary, then the Courts, and the European Court would have passed... Your judiciary has a leak (?), your judiciary is not controlled, your judiciary is not good. No justice. 

[Applause]

Jacqueline Chetty: How do you feel when you don’t belong to anywhere? 

Audience member 11 (Joseph Bertrand): I'd like to know: does the Foreign Office have a plan for the future of Chagossians tomorrow? People have been uprooted and died of sadness waiting for the Foreign Office to make an effort for the Chagossians... We want to return to our place with our families.

Audience member 12 (Lindsay Cotte): What I would like to know is that in the feasibility study, who will be eligible to go back to the Chagos? Under the current immigration legislation in this country all the first born in Chagos are British citizens. Unfortunately the second generation don’t cover everybody. It’s all about when you were born and as we all know we don’t choose the day that we are born so the legal system is wrong. In the event that the Chagossians can return to their islands one day, we all know that BIOT is a British sub-territory. The same immigration laws cover all British territory. So what will happen? Will we still be under the control of the immigration law? Our spouses and children and grandchildren which form part of our family are not all British and the current legislation is that we can’t even bring them to the UK. As my colleague already said about the 18,000, in England more than 60% of people are living under that roof. So why should we have this law on our spouses and children? We have to learn English. It’s good for people to learn another language but you can’t force me to know another language.

Audience member 13 (unidentified): This is what they are doing to us

Lindsay Cotte: I work in further education. I learned English back home, not here. I have seen many people in mainstream education who have done their GCSE and they are not special needs people but they can’t read or write English properly. So why should I have a level of English to be accepted in this country? My language doesn’t come from my citizenship; it comes from where I was born. The Chagossians are only here because they can’t live where they were born. If Chagossians have married Mauritian people, it’s just people of the decision of the British government. It was not a choice they made in their lives. So the British government must recognise what they’ve done - they have chosen the future of a nation against our will. So my concern is who will go there. All these immigration regulations should not be applied to us, because we Chagossians are another case. We are not British like every British. 

[Applause]

Sangeeta Ahuja: I thank you for your openness. On your specific question about the remit of the feasibility study, it’s yet to be decided. That’s why I’m here talking to you. It will be for ministers to decide. I really want to hear from you about what you think are the key policy issues, challenges and questions you’d like to see addressed relating to resettlement.  The feasibility study has been announced – what do you want from it?

Audience member 14 (Annecy Jaffar): I've listened to you all talking, even though I come from Chagos, I was born on Salomon, but I've heard you all talking, what I understand in my language, I understand with my head, I'm not hearing any progress. Firstly, everything that's said we've heard before...(inaudible)... We're talking of what's new, but...(inaudible)... Because we're a people which has been uprooted. Plus married families are broken up: people who have married a Mauritian have to separate; even our children - I have 6 children, just 2 get passports, the others don’t...(inaudible)... He was talking about passports, but more than 1 year has gone past, how many years? You talked of a Marine Park, but if we had stayed in Chagos we wouldn¹t need a Marine Park because we could catch fish with our hands...(inaudible)... Waiting for us to die... 

Sangeeta Ahuja: For people in the back of the room, there are seats at the front. I’d like to remind you of why we’re here, perhaps for those who weren’t here at the beginning. There is going to be a feasibility study on the resettlement of BIOT. I’ve heard some of your views relating to that but what we’d do in the event of return is a key question. What kind of life do you envisage there? What do you envisage doing? I would really welcome views from you on these issues.

Audience member 15 (Christopher): My name is Christopher. I know this isn’t the first feasibility study you’re doing. For the past fifty years the British government has stopped the Chagossians from returning to the islands. What’s the difference now? 

[Applause]

Christopher: A feasibility study sounds good but it’s just words for the Chagossians. Sorry for saying that but it’s just feeding them hope again, like for the past fifty years. I’ve heard Henry Smith and others saying that what was done to the Chagossians is wrong, but why for the past fifty years has the Chagossian voice not been heard by the government? What makes us so sure that what we’re saying today is going to be included in the feasibility study?

Jose Alexi: Because you’re liars

Christopher: I’m young. I’m a descendent. What will be the hope there for me? What work will I do? Would I just be a simple worker as I am here? Will it be other people that will be benefiting from my island, my mother’s land? Bear in mind that many of our youngsters don’t have any qualifications. Here in England you need qualifications to go wherever you want to go. Will there be some sort of courses for the young people to improve, to get a chance to be included in the feasibility study and work there, not just as a simple worker but to really develop? And next time it would be good to make the Chagossians see really what’s waiting for them there, because if you keep asking them what they want they will just tell you they are suffering. That’s what you’re going to get really. 

[Applause]

Christopher: I really hope that something will come from this feasibility study because for the past fifty years we have just been hearing things without seeing things. 

[Applause]

Audience member 16 (unidentified): We work in England. We don't eat, we don't drink, to save money to bring our children... 

[Applause]

Henry Smith: The issues of visas for second and third generation Chagossians is a unique situation and that’s why as I said earlier I’m having a meeting with the Home Office to discuss this. It’s an issue that a lot of members of the community ask me about and we need to speak with the Home Office to find a solution. 

Audience member 16: We don't get £12,000...

Henry Smith: We recognise there is a problem with visas and passports. As I said at the very beginning of the meeting, I’m not a member of the government and I don’t represent the government but I’m trying to get that situation worked out with the Home Office. I think it’s very important to concentrate this evening on your views on the feasibility study for resettlement. I think this is the best opportunity that the community has had in forty years of realising resettlement.

Audience member 16: [Speaks in Seychelles Kreol (English translation inaudible)]

Audience member 17 (Mylene Augustin): My name is Mylene Augustin and I am a president of an organisation and youth group. We also have a youth club where we meet every week. Since you uprooted us from our islands, we have been to Mauritius. We were trouble for you in Mauritius because we did a lot of protesting and so you decided to give us passports and you thought that because we never did anything, we would never come to England. We’re in England now and we’re going to keep on fighting. I always tell the children remember your culture. This is where you come from. When you’re renting a land or a house, you have to pay some kind of rent. Since the US are using our land, what kind of rent are they paying?

Audience member 18 (unidentified): (inaudible) 

Audience member 19 (Allen Vincatassin): I am Allen Vincatassin, the President. I fully support what people have been saying about the citizenship problems and I think the MP has already said that he will work with the minister. I will work with him on that and other group leaders must make sure that this situation is addressed by the ministers. Tonight I want to say that there are people who want to return to Chagos. There are others who want to stay in this country. Same thing for those in Seychelles and Mauritius. What I will put in my submission to the Policy Review Unit is to ask the government to ask the Americans to pay rights for using Diego Garcia and that money should be used for our affairs in this country, Mauritius and the Seychelles. We’ve heard tonight about all these problems, so the Americans can’t have a base free of charge at this time. I will make sure that this goes into my submission. The next thing is on the 5th of February when discussing the right of return with the Overseas Territories Minister, I have asked for a practical feasibility study. People need to be given the opportunity to go there and try to live and see in reality how this will happen. We don’t want to see the theory, the findings. We want to see a practical reality - for those who want to go there, how will they do it? That’s why when I negotiated the feasibility study with the Minister, I made it very clear that we have to see the practical. We must have the free will to choose return. Not everybody will return but those who do not must be looked after by the UK government. 

[Applause]

Sangeeta Ajuha: I’m going to draw the meeting to a close. I’d like to thank you all for attending. I can hear that some of these issues are very personal and I appreciate your taking the time to come here this evening. I’ll invite my colleagues if they’d like to say a couple of words.

Henry Smith: Can I also extend my thanks to everybody for coming and for giving your opinions. Please be assured that as a member of parliament for Crawley, I will continue to fight for the righ to resettlement of the Chagos islands and I’ll continue to work on some of the other issues that have been discussed this evening such as passports and housing. If I can help members of the community, please get in contact with me.

[Meeting closes]

-END OF TRANSCRIPT-