CHAGOS REGAGNE (CHAGOS REGAINED)
Conference
10:00-16:30, 19/05/2011
The Royal Geographical Society, London, UK

Transcript of proceedings

Session 1: The Chagos Reef Ecology Now
Chair: Sue MacGregor 
Lead Speakers: Mark Spalding & John Turner

Philippa Gregory: Ladies and gentlemen, friends, welcome to this conference. I’m Philippa Gregory, my fellow patron is Ben Fogle. We’re both very, very pleased to see you here. Roch Evenor will speak to you in just a moment and then we’ll start the debate. But I have to do a few things. That was Ifield community college drummers. We’re very pleased that they could come. We’re going to see them a while later this afternoon. There are some people filming. We’ve got a film crew on the balcony, there are other people filming. If you do not want to be filmed, would you sit in that block of seats over there and you will not be filmed. If you’re happy about being filmed, i.e. not sneaked out of work for the day, you can sit anywhere you like. We’re expecting three buses with Chagos people: two from Crawley and one from Manchester. They’re not here yet but we expect them very, very shortly. We have working in the audience today a rapporteur for each debate. They’ll be making notes and these will be posted on a comment board. Anything that you agree with, disagree with, want to comment on, you can comment on the comment board as well as joining in the debate which will follow every single presentation. There are two microphones in the hall. I feel like an air hostess! There are two microphones in the hall. If you want to say something after the speakers have finished, please line up in front of the microphones and you will be called in order of joining the line. We are setting a very bad example with this first debate. We’re not starting on time. Hereafter we are going to start on time. We have to be out of here by four thirty, that’s the deal. All the filming that’s being done is going to be posted on the web and on various sites, and will be made publically available. That means that when you speak, you’re not just speaking to each other; you’re speaking to the world. Those of you who engage in the debate in what I would describe as a vigorous fashion – you know who you are – just bear that in mind. I can’t think of anything more important to do today than to try and have an open debate and to try and get to a consensus. Now I'd like to introduce Roch Evenor. Thank you. 

Roch Evenor: Thank you, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen. You’ve just been party to our social life back in Chagos some years ago. Anyway, we welcome you all to this important conference, the first ever it has been convened where Chagossians are driving the discussion and debate on how best to integrate an eco-friendly village and preserve a pristine environment. Therefore the theme is Chagos Regagne or Chagos Regained. We hope a consensus will be reached on how Chagossians can live on the Outer Islands. Let me remind you that all Chagossians living in Mauritius, Seychelles, England and all over the world are absolutely determined to conserve the Chagos environment. We want our homeland to always be the wonderful place that it is and we want to play our part in that by living there and guarding it. The creation of the Marine Protected Area was made – and I quote – ‘without prejudice’ to the return of Chagossians, and now we want to make that promise a reality. I have observed with interest (inaudible)...that started years before this conference. And I ask you here to put aside your differences and work together for the best outcome for the people and the environment. This is a chance for the Chagossian community to come together and see if we can plan for the future of the Chagos islands, which were declared a unique environment, and allow Chagos people to be able to return. This conference is a chance to break a deadlock which has left me and my people in exile far from our homes and unprotected by law. It’s going to be something for Chagossians but unfortunately they are not here. Therefore I declare the conference Chagos Regagne officially open and I introduce Sue MacGregor who will be chairing the first one, which is Ocean Diversities. Thank you.

[Applause]

Sue MacGregor: Roch, thank you very much indeed. My name is Sue MacGregor. I’m going to be chairing the first part of this conference. I heard a merry tinkle of mobile phones a moment ago. Could I just remind everybody please to turn theirs off and any other device you may be wearing that goes beep or tinkle or plays a tune, that would be much appreciated. We are also expecting, as I think Philippa said, two busloads of Chagossians, and I have a vision of them trying to find parking in amongst all the road works. This may be why they’re not with us. But we’ll try and get them in during our first presentation and debate, with as little interruption as possible. So don’t think there’s been a sort of takeover if you suddenly see a whole lot of people coming in.
 
An important element of today’s discussion of whether and when the return of Chagossians to their islands will be possible is what effect their return might have on the precious biodiversity of the islands, which includes the world’s largest coral atoll. Now, last year the British government created the world’s largest strict Marine Protection Area around the islands; a nature reserve with an area of a quarter of a million square miles. But it’s a marine park which many people here in the audience will know could well put paid to the resettlement claims of the Chagossians, which at the moment as you know are now before the European Court of Human Rights. According to a recent wiki leak – and who are we to doubt it – and as reported not long ago as a result of that in The Times, the marine park was created not just to save one of the most beautiful and richly diverse island areas of the world, but it was created with the express aim of excluding people and protecting the military base on Diego Garcia. 

Well, to learn more in this first session – and we're going to concentrate on the science here – about the rich biodiversity of the Chagos Archipelago, I’m joined by two scientists who know the area well. They’re each going to present their views - I think they have slightly different views, I’ll try and tease that out afterwards - about what a resettlement would do to the beautiful coral atoll, and we welcome, as Philippa said, your views, and the microphones are there and there. And I know Mark and John will be very happy to deal with your questions. On my left, Dr Mark Spalding of the Conversation Biology Group at the Department of Zoology at Cambridge University, and on my right, Dr John Turner of the School of Ocean Sciences at Bangor University in North Wales. I’m going to ask them to present in order, just about alphabetical order I think. Mark Spalding, please talk to us first. Dr Mark Spalding.

[Applause]

Mark Spalding: Thank you very much and thank you to all the organisers and everyone who’s here today. It’s fantastic to get this very diverse group together. I’ve got a lot of ground to cover so I’m going to be fairly quick. I’m going to start, really, by talking about coral reefs in a very pretty generic sense; what they are and what they mean to people. But I guess a major focus of what I’m going to talk about is the threat facing the world’s coral reefs. I’m scene-setting here, I’m trying to get us all to a common understanding which will I think fuel the discussions through the day. And I’m going to wind up talking about some of the future scenarios. My focus is general. John is going to take us in to think more mostly about Chagos in particular, but of course the way I’m talking is informed by Chagos and so Chagos underpins a lot of my thinking in this talk.

I don’t think one can start talking about coral reefs without a little bit of attention to the humble architecture of the coral reefs and the corals themselves. Corals are these really tiny atoms. They look like sea anemones. In the tropics they build communal organisms with a common skeleton. Many of them lay down a hard skeleton of limestone. Effectively they build rocks. Over time, those rocks, those skeletons, grow. These branching corals might grow at a few centimetres a year. After fifteen centimetres a year the more bulky corals like this are going to just grow a few centimetres a year. And over time, those corals start to grow into fantastic gardens, and they build coral reefs. Coral reefs are really the most diverse ecosystems on the planet. We know of about a hundred thousand species. There are probably a million, maybe two million species on the world’s coral reefs. Immensely diverse and with that comes a lot of importance. As they grow, they need sunlight to grow because living within their tissues they have some photosynthesising micro-organisms. So they grow in sunny, tropical waters, and they grow one on top of the other, gradually building up until they get to the sea surface, where of course they can’t grow. They’re marine organisations, they can’t grow in the air. But as they do, they continue to grow out and they build these wide platforms – we call that a reef flat. So you get these huge physical structures growing over thousands of millions of years. And islands are part of the coral reef system too. Many islands like Chagos are built entirely by the corals themselves - the coral reefs - including the islands, which are really washed up by storms, by currents and so on. You get a piling up of debris which forms the very islands on which Chagos and many other countries and places depend. 

People around the world depend on coral reefs hugely. A source of food for - we reckon about two hundred and seventy five million people around the world are reef-dependent people. But not just food. Tourism is a huge industry now, many coral reef countries supporting livelihoods, supporting wealth creation and so on. As I said already, corals build land on which people live and the beaches on which people lie. But they also defend many coastlines. They form a sort of rampart around many coastlines of the world, breaking waves and helping against storm damage. Tremendously important. Hidden within that immense diversity of coral reefs is the potential genetic diversity for building new drugs. We’re already finding drugs for cancer, for HIV, for malaria, so there’s a wealth to be had from coral reefs.

Unfortunately, we’re not looking after them, and this is a worldwide story of impacts from people, impacts from pollution – it’s sewage pollution, it’s toxins coming off the land, it’s sediments being washed off as we chop down forests, as we develop our coastlines too much. But probably the most widespread threat to the world’s reefs comes from fishing – really just too many people trying to catch too few resources. Over-fishing is almost ubiquitous, very widespread around the world’s coral reefs. And if we take too many fish off the reefs, we don’t just affect the fish; we affect the entire system. This is a reef that’s been over-fished, there’s nothing left to graze the algae, so algae grows on the coral, productivity drops. Not only biodiversity loses out but also people.

Fishing takes many guises. It’s the insanity of fishing with dynamite which is hammering reefs in Tanzania and large parts of South East Asia, when sure you catch a lot of fish but also you destroy the resource for future generations. And this is a photo of Chagos. There’s illegal fishing going on even on the most remote reefs around the world because some of them fish on reefs are so valuable it pays you to break the law, it pays you to drive your boats thousands of kilometres to get to more pristine resources and to fish them. 

So we know reefs are under threat. The challenge we have is to know how to really get a sense of the global scope and scale of these problems and I’m going to briefly talk you through a study we’ve just completed called Reefs at Risk. We visited, this is a horizontal study we did about thirteen years ago on the same lines. It’s really to look at the global state of the world’s reefs. And our challenge was to try and build this using modelling techniques. So it’s a model, it’s not the reality on the ground. We use a whole host of parameters: human population density, shipping lanes, land use practices, even patterns of rainfall and so on, and the location of markets and locations of hotels. We build a model. That model has been verified. About three hundred scientists contributed to this to review to make sure that it looked about right. And I’m going to show you some of the results for the Indian Ocean. This is just to give a big sweeping context of where Chagos lies in terms of the threats facing the world’s reefs. 

I imagine you all know where Chagos is but in case you don’t, that’s Chagos. This is one of the direct pressures on reefs that we mentioned. It’s the coastal development pressure. As you can see, it's pretty huge all around the margins of the Indian Ocean. Marine-based pollution – this is coming from shipping, from oil and gas installations and from cruise ships and so on. A lesser threat perhaps, and again Chagos is looking pretty good though you can see Diego Garcia is projected to be slightly under threat. It doesn’t mean it’s necessarily degraded yet but there’s a risk of degradation because of the shipping going on around. Watershed based pollution. This is what’s being washed off the land. Of course, there not being much land, you wouldn’t expect much pressure on Chagos but it’s a huge threat, all around, again, the Indian Ocean basin. And finally, unsustainable fishing: a huge problem pretty much everywhere.

So what we did with this series of problems is we basically piled them one on top of the other to get a global threat and this is what’s happening to the world’s coral reefs. Sixty-one percent of the world’s reefs are under these direct pressures; things happening on the ground from nearby to coral reefs, with over-fishing, here, the biggest threat of all. And as we zoom in on the Indian Ocean, we see that sixty five percent of the reefs in the Indian Ocean are threatened. But Chagos really stands out. Chagos makes up ten percent of the reefs of the Indian Ocean, almost entirely unthreatened or low threat. And so that’s a quarter of the low threat reefs in that region. It’s a very special place.

I want to talk about some other threats now: the threat, really, of global change. What’s happening with regards to climate change. We all know that human CO2 emissions, methane emissions and so on, are changing the global air temperatures. But they’re also changing sea temperatures. The sea is warming up as well, about point six degrees centigrade since the start of the industrial revolution. Corals are extremely sensitive organisms to the slightest changes in the normal temperature variation around the world. They have, as I mentioned, these microscopic animals living within their tissues and when it gets just a bit warmer than normal in the summer months, they bleach, they lose those organisms, they go a white colour. If they stay like that for more than a few weeks, they die.

Chagos isn’t immune from this. Chagos was hammered by a coral bleaching event in 1998. It’s been hit by subsequent bleaching events and I think John’s probably going to tell us a bit more about that. Climate change is having another impact as well, which we’re just beginning to understand and worry about, and that’s the change in the acidification of the oceans. About a third of all the carbon dioxide that we emit from running our cars and running our power stations, is dissolved into the surface water of the oceans. As it enters into the water, it forms a weak carbonic acid and what that does – and I’ve left out lots of the technical details here – essentially is reduces the concentration of essential minerals – here’s two, aragonite and calcite, which corals and other organisms – other shell-building organisms – need to grow their skeletons or shells. If those concentrations drop too much we believe that first of all, growth rates will slow, and eventually, they may start dissolving. 

We tried to build both climate change and warming and acidification into our models of Reefs at Risk. So these two models of future projected climate change. Yellow and upwards on these maps indicates a one in two chance of a bleaching event occurring every year. So that’s the projections for the 2030s and the 2050s. It looks pretty bleak by the 2050s; pretty much everywhere has a chance of bleaching every other year. And with the acidification again, anything yellow or above on these maps indicates very marginal conditions for corals to carry on growing. That’s today, the 2030s and the 2050s. These are all models, they can all be challenged, but they do look pretty bleak. And they’re not the radical end of the models. They’re probably fairly average. So we tried to build these. We tried to also build past bleaching events, because as I said, bleaching has already started to affect the world’s coral reefs. We tried to build past bleaching events into our models. And when we did so – remember Chagos was hit as well - it pushed up our estimate for the total threat to the world’s reefs today to be about seventy five percent of the reefs, by the 2030s ninety percent, and by the 2050s pretty much every reef on the planet being threatened by direct impacts and climate change. And you see Chagos is there and it’s still under what we call weak orange low to medium threat, but it’s still threatened. 

Sea level rise is another issue we’ve got to start getting our heads around. It wasn’t covered by the Reefs at Risk model. We were interested in underwater. But sea levels are rising and the trends appear to be accelerating. The IPCC tells us we might expect up to a sixty centimetre sea level rise by 20-100, but actually, it’s observations - so these are the sort of average models here – but observations are all at the top end of the projections. So it looks as though sea levels are rising faster than the models are predicting. And what does that mean for islands? It means three different things. It means, of course, inundation. This is Tuvalu in the Pacific where very high tides are now flooding the land. This is Chagos. The coastlines are also eroding. Even if things are above sea level, erosion will increase on the edges of islands. But it also affects the availability of fresh water. Under most of these islands there’s what we call a lens of fresh water. It floats on top of the seawater, it’s underneath, and that’s critical for the growing of plants and critical for the survival of people. So reefs are in a pretty powerless state and it's important to remember, to have that in context when you think about Chagos, because Chagos is so unique in being thus far in a fantastic state. But of course future warming and sea level rise are going to threaten all reefs worldwide.

So I’m now going to think about a series of questions. Firstly about whether reefs can survive climate change. Certainly we’ve got some time and we believe that there are various mechanisms we can put into our management of coral reefs that will buy us a bit more time. If we look after reefs better, if we reduce some of the other stresses on reefs, it appears that they bounce back quicker from bleaching events and so on. 

Can people live with reefs? Are there examples? Because I’ve kind of painted a picture of that wherever there are people, reefs tend to be degraded. Well there are many examples around the world where people are living with reefs. There are traditional examples from the Pacific Islands in particular, and there are more modern ones where we’ve got tourism. This is Chumbe Island in Tanzania, zero impact and actually a real force for good in protecting reefs. And perhaps a better model for us to think of than some of these islands which are in densely populated areas are some of the more remote islands where we’ve got people living on small islands with vast areas of reef all around and the impacts really can be very limited. 

What about sea level rise? Well the Carteret Islands in Papua New Guinea have created perhaps the world’s first climate change refugees. As sea levels started to rise, their crops started to fail and one and a half thousand peoples have been evacuated from the Carteret Islands. This is the president of the Maldives drawing attention to the risk of climate change, of sea rise, and here is Tuvalu again, where high tide is starting to flood the land. 

But, the story is more mixed. Some of the models predict that actually the central Indian Ocean will suffer less from sea level rise, certainly in the short term. There’s an interesting paper to come out that shows that islands in some cases will continue to grow. Remember these are very dynamic systems so the ways and processes that build islands will carry on, even as sea levels rise. We can also build to try and protect ourselves from sea level rise. So these are some fairly extraordinary examples from the Marshall Islands where people are just protecting their own coasts. This is some coastal fence being built here. This is in Kiribas where people are planting mangroves to try to stop coastal erosion. This is extraordinary. This is the Maldives have just signed a deal to create four floating islands, for tourism it will perhaps be the future….Not necessarily a future we want to consider but we need to have, I think, everything on the table.

So can Chagos be resettled? My answer is yes, but…There are huge risks. There are risks of isolation, poverty, food insecurity, and a real fear I would have is of double displacement: if people move back and then find sea level rise or other factors drive them away again. And there are risks to nature – the harm of pollution, all the things I’ve talked about. But again I think these can be overcome. Immense costs. There are some projections out there, some models out there. I think we’re talking hundreds of millions, really, to try and get something like this going. But potential benefits – policing, science, field conservation, restoring the native forests, controlling the invasives and so on. My final question, my final slide is: does Chagos need a marine protected area? I think the answer to this from us all needs to be an outstanding yes, of course it does. We’ve learned from area the world that protected areas can help. They can help reefs to be resilient against climate change, they can help people to survive and build more safe livelihoods and so on. So my hope is that wherever we go from here, we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. An MPA has been perhaps imposed on Chagos in a way that could have been done better but I think really we all need a protected area for Chagos no matter what its future. Thank you. 

[Applause]

Sue MacGregor: Mark Spalding, thank you very much. Just before you sit down Mark, I was going to stun you with a question but you’ve just answered it actually. Which was: are you for the return? It’s a very difficult decision and you’re not being a politician here but you are saying that the Chagos Islands could actually stand the return of a reasonably big population of the islanders? 

Mark Spalding: I think they could. My concern is that I’m a scientist who knows about risks. I think the decision needs to be made by someone other than me. I think there are ways to build resettlement that could be sustainable and could even be good for nature. 

Sue MacGregor: Well you raise lots of questions and I’m sure the answers will emerge before this session is finished. Thank you very much indeed. Well now, I don’t know if you’ll take a different view to Mark, on the last question, but let’s hear the science first from Dr John Turner of Bangor University. John, tell us what your experience is.

[Applause]

John Turner: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to this meeting. This presentation is based on a review by a great many scientists who have been working in the Chagos and I list them there but you won’t have time to read them all. I’d like to dedicate the talk in memory of John Topp, the founder of Friends of Chagos, a conservationist and botanist who would have enjoyed being here today, I’m sure. Now, building on what Mark has said, one thing we must remember is that these reefs actually build the islands. Darwin told us this with his subsidence theory which has since been proven correct. Essentially, that irons of an original volcanic origin, hotspot origin, will subside and this results in corals, the reefs, growing up and this tends to produce an atoll, which may have a series of small islands. They are actually produced by a living, healthy coral reef. Now these islands can be very tiny. This is an example of Egmont Atoll in the Chagos. Very small islands, some of them a few hundred metres across, but an interesting point about them is that these are produced by the coral on the top of the reed flat, the sediment builds up but these islands – certainly in Chagos and in areas where there’s high rainfall – and the centres of these islands actually are lower than the sea level and this is because the rain dissolves the sand. And in fact there’s an extreme example on Ile Anglaise in Saloman where there is a very wet and inundated area. 

But to give a sense of proportion, five atolls, four submerged atolls, there are fifty four islands, but the total land area is just under fifty three kilometres square, of which only half is actually consisted of Diego Garcia and its four islands. The other islands are very tiny indeed. In fact, if we superimpose the area on the UK there, or on mostly England, the areas that in green are actually submerged, the few black bits – Diego Garcia, Peros Banhos up here – are the areas that are exposed. And basically, the areas which are awash with sea water but shallow are about eight five kilometres square but then there’s a very large area of reefs and banks and lagoons, not necessarily reefs, of about sixty thousand kilometres square in the area in this region. 

And of course, these islands support a rich environment and biodiversity and I’m going to talk about some of these organisms and the science that has been done, because the scientists that have been there are trying to understand and protect the ecosystems of the Chagos. They want to try to understand the function of the Chagos in the Indian Ocean and the importance of Chagos to that ocean and to the people who surround it. And the total area included in the Marine Protected Area is actually five hundred and fifty thousand kilometres square. It’s illustrated here as a bathymetric chart, so what we’re seeing here are shallow areas, a very deep area here to the east of other six thousand meters. And the reefs that are in this area, in shallow areas in particular, are especially important. They are a very rich component of the Indian Ocean, as Mark has already indicated.

And the Chagos MPA is important because of its size. We’re actually falling behind in creating Marine Protected Areas. Over-fishing, as Mark has explained, and these other threats mean that we need to protect the marine environment and in fact here is a map which illustrates the formation of Marine Protected Areas since 1960. The red dots are those that have formed, the blue dots show the trajectory. There are some six thousand MPAs now around the world, but many of those are nor real; they’re only on paper, they’re not managed, they’re not enforced. And we’ve missed all the targets. The CBD – the Convention on Biological Diversity – target was to cover ten percent of all economic exclusive zones by 2010. We’ve missed that. They’ve now adjusted it to 2020. The World Parks Congress similarly have had to adjust their targets. And in fact these targets are not going to be met until well towards the end of the century when in fact we’re going to be having major changes in our climate anyway. 

So this brings us to the question actually of are the Chagos reefs actually pristine? We’ve gone to all this trouble to protect them but are they really worth protecting? Mark has indicated yes. I agree with him. But they’re not pristine. These results I’m going to show you very quickly show the percent of reef cover of different sorts of organisms in 1979 and 1996. The detail doesn’t matter but the point is that there has actually been a fall in the coverage of organisms. And at first it wasn’t understood why there was a decline, but now we realise that this has been due to sea water warming events which have caused, basically, degradation of the reefs, as Mark has explained. These are the dates of the events, the major one being in ‘97 and ‘98. And the effects of those sorts of impacts…this is Egmont Atoll in the Chagos this was - prior to 2003 or possibility 2005, I’m not sure when the bleaching event actually was - but this is what it looked like before and this is what it looked like afterwards. Most of the corals there are now dead. The greeny-coloured ones have got algae growing on them. Some are still alive but most have died. And in fact once the corals die and turn to rubble, that rubble keeps moving around for a long time until it’s washed off the reefs and this prevents the reefs recovering. Now, we can monitor coral recovery and scientists that have been going to Chagos have been doing that. Here we can see coral cover in 1978 and from the earlier studies, the ones I’ve just shown you, also coral cover from 1996. And we can see that there was a drop in those times, due, we think, to the increases in surface temperature. In fact, there’s a report from 1999 by the Fisheries Officers, who warned us that there was a national mortality event that they picked up in 1999 which probably happened in ’98, and in fact scientists went out to check that and sure enough, the coral cover had dropped, from those green lines down to just red lines, the levels of really quite low percentages: ten in shallow water going up to maybe about twelve percent in slightly deeper water. The reefs were looking like the picture up here.

By 2006 though, there was some recovery. The shallow terraces were recovering, the corals were growing back and the dead corals we have a slight increase now, a blue line, which shows that there was a lot more coral beginning to grow, particularly in shallower water, probably because there’s more light. And then in 2010, recent data illustrates that the corals are actually getting quite close to the 1996 levels, certainly at some depths. So there is good recovery, we’ve seen very high numbers of recruits which we don’t see on any other reefs. This sort of recovery has not been seen on too many reefs around the world. Will it return to the 1978 levels? Probably not. Probably never, because the coral is being continually knocked back by these temperature impacts. So I think it’s optimistic to think that that will happen. We also need to look not just at cover but at aspects like diversity and competition. There are lots of coral communities in competition. These are all things we have to monitor and some of my work has been involved in making archival videos so we can actually go back and look at what the reefs were like before. We can analyse these videos and we can plot out what each atoll actually looks like. 

But how do the reefs compare to those elsewhere in the Indian Ocean? And we’ve got Chagos in the top – and this really is the data Mark showed, exactly the same thing – the light blue areas are the healthy reefs. The dark blue area shown in the top corner here is effectively lost reef, basically rubble which keeps moving around. When there’s rubble like in the Seychelles, the coral doesn’t tend to recover very much. We’ve got reefs at a critical stage and then reefs at a threatened stage and reefs at a low threat level. The interesting thing here, as Mark said, is that half of the reefs in the Indian Ocean that are healthy are actually found in the Chagos. 

Now it’s not just coral. We’ve got some fish abundance as well. There been some excellent work done recently on coral fish abundances. Because, if the coral structure changes then the fish communities change. Now, here we can see the reef fish biomass for inside Marine Protected Areas, which is in red, and outside of those, in green, for lots of places around the Indian Ocean. We’ve got Mauritius over on the far side there, we’ve got the Maldives at this end here and lots of places in between. You will see that in general where we have no-take marine reserves, there is in most places more fish biomass than in the fished areas. But we've got to remember that the no-take areas are very small. They account for probably about point six percent of the ocean area. They are very tiny compared to the fished areas. Now let’s put Chagos on the map. We’ve got to shrink the whole scale of everywhere else to put on the fish biomass of the Chagos. It’s that impressive. It’s over five thousand kilograms of fish per hectare at a ten-metre depth. So that’s quite spectacular that there is that amount of fish in the Chagos and that is because it is not fished. It’s fashionable to say that subsistence fishing is centuries old, it has no effect. This is a delusion. Subsistence fishing is no less destructive to marine habitat than subsistence farming is to land. That was a quote by Ray, not recently; back in 1969. And what we’re seeing in this data is actually the difference. This is the exploitation gap. Yes we’ve got protected areas. People are doing wonderful fine things down here but this is what should be on those reefs. So this is the level that is being over-exploited. And in fact there’s an average of about one thousand two hundred kilograms on many of those reefs compared to Chagos.

Now we should also look at the islands, look at what’s happening there. If we look at some of them, the hardwoods are beginning to grow back in places. And the bird populations are very healthy. The Redfoot Booby has gone from three pairs in the early 1980s to over five thousand now. And there are eighteen species breeding, five species of global importance, there are ten important bird areas. And in fact, the birds are mostly on smaller islands that were not planted – coz those areas are now rat-infested – and because there wasn’t a change to the original habitat, these are the areas that birds can now use. And there are sheer waters, burrows in the ground for nesting, and there are very large numbers of birds in areas where this is still original habitat. 

Turtles – they’re coming back. We can see the graph here from the turn of the twentieth century, turtle exploitation. But now there are four hundred to eight hundred green and three hundred to seven hundred Hawksbill Turtles, mostly on Diego Garcia. The Robber Crab is coming back as well. This was very low numbers in the 1990s, we now have the highest densities of the coconut crab on Diego Garcia. 

There are of course other island problems. There’s sea level rise. There is evidence of sea level rise on Diego Garcia as illustrated by the graph here, showing a rise of about one millimetre a month, although it's the highest peaks at particular times that really are of concern. There’s also, of course, erosion and we can see eroded coasts and there is a problem in acidification. Diego Garcia is a special site. It is protected with the Ramsar site over much of the area. We can talk more about that later on perhaps. But what’s important with this Marine Protected Area is also the wider area. It extends to two nautical mile limit and it’s interesting that two hundred nautical miles does actually, according to literature that comes from the Pacific, does include the normal ranges of some of the fish like Skipjack and Yellowfin Tuna. Also in this region we have different environments; not just coral reefs. We have eighty-six sea mounts, two hundred and forty three knolls. Over half of all sea mounts that are in protected areas will be in the Chagos Marine Protected Area. And here they are protected from deep trawling. 

Similarly we can predict the pelagic species, things like these Longmans Beaked Whales – quite a rare whale - we can predict the habitats where that will be in this wider area around the islands. And I think it’s appropriate to mention something about connectivity. The Chagos is a long way from anywhere: over two thousand seven hundred kilometres from the next small islands, Cocos Keeling to the east, and one thousand seven hundred kilometres out towards the Seychelles in the west. But there are closer banks and these are within reach of larvae that will move in the water currents that for much of the year run to the west, although late in January and April they will run to the east. And what’s interesting is there are organisms that show connectivity. The Crown of Thorns Starfish is a good example, originally just one species, there are now four known and the ones in Chagos closely elide to the ones in the Seychelles as you can see by these coloured dots in this region, and we see similar stories with various species of fish. 

So I’ll finish by saying that the waters of Chagos are excellent, they are unpolluted, no invasives have been found, that the way forward is creating these ocean mega-sea reserves which has come about through the Chagos Environment Network and in fact there’s a meeting going on in Canada now where these are being discussed and their management is being covered. So I’d like to just end now with just a slide that illustrates perhaps some of the benefits of the Protected Area, some of the issues that we are no doubt going to be talking about and considering, and I’d like to thank you for your attention. I would be happy to answer questions on the science later on. Thank you very much. 

[Applause]

Sue MacGregor: John, I’m going to ask you – I don’t want to take any more time from the questions from the floor but - as a scientist, I take it from what you’re saying that you’re a little bit pessimistic about the effect of a return on the biodiversity?

John Turner: Yes, I think that is true, as a scientist. It's my role as a scientist to show the science that underpins the biodiversity, how it works, how it might be threatened, and if necessary to mitigate impacts that people might have on that biodiversity. I do feel that there are some places in the world where, really, the impact of people needs to be very low. It doesn’t necessarily mean there can’t be any people there, but I think we do have to consider that. Antarctica is a good example.

Sue MacGregor: Right well I’m sure there are going to be some challenging questions to that. John, could you please join me here? And Mark too. And nobody at the moment is standing at the microphones and I hope that there are…Oh I see, instant people arriving, certainly at that one. If I could ask you could you identify yourself please and if other people who want to ask questions would like to go to the other microphone it would be good to have you lined up. Yes sir.

Audience member 1 (Richard Dunne): Yes, thank you. My name is Richard Dunne. I have one question which really is for John Turner. You talked about sea level rise and the record from Diego Garcia, the tidal change which you illustrated and the fact that that has been analysed and shown to be one millimetre a month. Can I ask this question: You do realise that there are two tide gauge data sets at Diego Garcia and the analysis has combined both, and that in fact, the original tide gauge was replaced in 2003 after the failure in 2000, and that it’s been found that there’s a misalignment between those stages of about seventeen point nine centimetres. If you go and approach the people who owned the tide gauge in Hawaii, they will tell you that these are two data sets. If I could just go on?

Sue MacGregor: No, could you just make the point briefly because you’re making a statement and we want a question. You’re saying some of the data is unreliable.
	
Richard Dunne: The question is: are you aware that you’re actually dealing with two datasets?

John Turner: Yes, and the datasets have been analysed in a number of different ways. They're also very similar to the two tide gauges that are in the Maldives. They’re a comparable dataset. So I have no reason to disbelieve that data at this point in time.

Sue MacGregor: Which is showing a rise in the sea level. 

Richard Dunne: Could I make a statement as well?

John Turner: I think we just should remember as well is things are more complex than just a rise in sea level because in areas like this there can be quite a lot of movement of the actual islands, of the actual land mass as well, so it's far more complicated than just looking at that. 

Sue MacGregor: Are you saying that land mass can rise with the sea?

John Turner:  Not with the sea but it can rise with various processes that are going on, on a larger scale in the Indian Ocean. 

Sue MacGregor: Right, thank you John. I think you have a question.

Audience member 2 (Roch Evenor): My question – I mean, I want to make a statement. 

Sue MacGregor: Rather have a question if you wouldn’t mind. 

Roch Evenor: Yeah, yeah, it will be as a question as well. To Dr John Turner. You say that the Chagos Archipelago, I mean, the fishing, is very, very good. It shows, I mean, there is tuna licences that allows people to fish, MRAG, so despite that, it shows that…Am I right to say that despite that, the fishing stock is still very good? 

John Turner:  The reef fish biomass is very high, yes. There are obviously different sorts of fish that are fished. The Mauritian fisheries in the past, for instance, used rod and line. Some of that would have been in banks and so on. But a lot of the fishing wouldn’t have been directly on the reefs. There are a lot of pelagic species also taken. So yes, this fish biomass is very high and it takes - there’s evidence from papers from McLanahan and others - that it takes about twenty-two years or thereabouts for populations to get back to levels, if there was sufficient left for them to do that. 

Sue MacGregor: We did see in one of your slides an explosion and that wasn’t in one of the Chagos Islands I think, but people do fish by chucking explosives in. 

John Turner: That was in Mark’s presentation. That does happen in the Philippines and in various places, yes it does. 

Sue MacGregor: Sorry, wrong person. Mark. 

Mark Spalding: Just an extra point on that. John is quite right to show the difference between fished and unfished atolls. There are some fantastic stories – depressing perhaps stories from the Pacific as well - of the huge jump in biomass once you stop fishing on reefs. So I think there’s no point in trying to pretend it doesn’t happen. Humans have an impact on reefs. I think one thing that you really need to bear in mind in Chagos is the size of the reefs. Chagos has one and a half percent of the world’s coral reefs. That’s a huge area of reefs. And what we’re talking about is a relatively small island area, huge reef to island area ratio, which means that it’s quite conceivable that you could have resettlement and exploitation of a limited area of reefs and still have vast areas of reefs that you could keep totally unfished if you wanted to, and have that same exploitation gap that John showed us. 

Sue MacGregor: You don’t agree with that particularly John?

John Turner: In part. I think the problem when you fish a reef is that there is very intense effort on specific animals. You remove particular species from the system and that system can begin to break down. We don’t actually fully know the functional redundancy, that if you take one fish out, is there another fish or another species that plays the same role on the reef? Our understanding is not actually that good. There’s new work coming out that suggests that all sorts of other factors - some of them we’ve been talking about now - also affect fish biomass and in fact, if you’re fishing at a level that is about a quarter of the overall fish biomass then you can be subject - that population of fish is also subject - to all of these other environmental effects, which combined with the fishing might actually cause it to be unsustainable. 

Mark Spalding: Well, sorry, I’ve got to react a little bit to that. Let’s not forget Diego Garcia, which is being quite heavily fished and not being very well monitored. And let’s not forget the illegal fishing which is going on which could actually potentially be quite well policed if you have a resident population in the northern atoll, so you might actually reduce some of that illegal fishing which is taking out the top predators. 

Sue MacGregor: Well thank you for your question but we’ll move on to the gentleman there. 
 
Audience member 3 (David Snoxell): Thank you. My name is David Snoxell. Thank you Mark and John for two very illuminating talks. Mark, I’d just like to ask you a question on one point you made. You made a passing reference in this topic of the Chagos reef ecology now, to the costs. You said that you thought that it would cost hundreds of millions to resettle the people. Now of course that depends on what size of resettlement you’re talking about and what kind of infrastructure. Could you tell us where you get that figure of hundreds of millions from? Thank you.

Mark Spalding: Oh dear! No I can’t. To be honest, that figure comes from the top of my head and I’m a reef scientist more than an economist. I do think, however, that if one thinks of just maintaining a patrol vessel at a million pounds a year, the idea of settling people, of having regular transport, of providing infrastructure and so on, I think you’re talking huge amounts of money, but no, I can’t....

Sue MacGregor: Do you think that was an exaggerated figure?

David Snoxell: I think there is a big difference between five million and a hundred million, yes. But it depends on the size of the resettlement. 

Sue MacGregor: It does depend on the size, but John, you wanted to add something.

John Turner: Yes, David, I think it’s appropriate to mention that on Diego Garcia they are spending sums in the millions to do with protecting the island from erosion. So just the erosion matter can cost millions, never mind other infrastructure. It will be many millions, I’m sure.

David Snoxell: I think this will come up in the next session. Thank you. 

Sue MacGregor: I’m delighted to say that the Chagossians in the buses are just arriving. Welcome to you. But there’s a gentleman who I suspect may come from the Chagos Islands just behind the last questioner. May I ask you sir, if you have a question which is related to what we’ve just heard?

Audience member 4 (Olivier Bancoult): My question is based on…

Sue MacGregor: Could you give us your name please?

Olivier Bancoult: My name is Oliver Bancoult, I’m the leader of the Chagos Refugees Group based in Mauritius. We are representing the Chagossian community in Mauritius. 

Sue MacGregor: Thank you. 

Olivier Bancoult: My question is to both of you. You talk about sea level. You say that the, you mention that the everywhere we have sea level, we have climate change, but do you think that this will not affect Diego Garcia where we have a military base on Diego Garcia? What do you think about that? We understand that you are here just for the protection of the environment. It’s okay. But what do you think about the base on Diego Garcia?

John Turner: Can I say something on that? If the reefs are healthy then the islands will grow. We know that, that's how systems work. But they do also erode. We are facing probably periods of further sea surface temperature increases that will reduce the ability of the reefs to grow very well, acidification. Mark talked a little bit about – I didn’t get on to that – but acidification is almost certainly going to weaken the reefs as well. I think we have to be fairly pessimistic reefs are going to be weaker in coming times unless they’re going to acclimatise and adapt and there isn’t a huge amount of evidence for that. 

Mark Spalding: We need to be realistic about the future of reefs. We need to be aware that the Maldives, Tuvalu, Kiribas, other nations are talking about moving, about finding another place to live because of the threat of sea level rise and reef degradation. That doesn’t mean it’s imminent and it doesn’t mean it’s always going to happen everywhere, because it’s a very complex science. So that’s the first thing, let’s just be aware of that. The other part to that, I think your comment about Diego Garcia, of course if you throw enough money at the problem, you can probably deal with it in some way and you can live on a concrete block that gradually gets built up and up. That will cost a fortune, might not even be that pleasant. But yes, I think the Americans are going to be very capable of defending Diego Garcia for a very long time to come. It’s quite a lot to ask, probably, British taxpayers to pay for that. 

Sue MacGregor: But I think the good news in terms of recovery, Mark - you were talking earlier outside of this conference room - you have seen the remarkable ability of coral to reconstitute itself in the Seychelles. 

Mark Spalding: Yeah. Well no, in Chagos. John spoke to that quite well I think. Yes, I think healthy reefs are certainly going to be better at defending the coasts and even adding sediments and building up islands and so on. 

Sue MacGregor: There’s one here that will take hundreds of years but you’ve seen evidence that in ten years…

Mark Spalding: And John showed us the evidence. I think the fact that he was showing the coral was recovering back to ‘96 levels within ten years of a major bleaching event. But unfortunately the projections are that some of these things are going to become more frequent and therefore recovery might be slower. 

Sue MacGregor: So man was not a part of this equation. It was ocean temperature? 

Mark Spalding: Ocean temperature knocked out the reefs in ’98, and if you like, natural ecological processes allowed the reefs to bounce back. 

John Turner: But man is part of that in that if there are lots of man-made impacts on those reefs, they do not have the resilience to bounce back.  

Audience member 5 (Iain Orr): Thank you. My name is Iain Orr, I run a bio-diplomacy network I’m on the council of the UK Overseas Territories Conservation Board and I’ve spent a few years in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office ending up with a lot of work on environmental issues, environmental charters with the UK Overseas Territories. My question to both of the speakers is to do with the relationship between human communities and care of the environment. I know you can all find huge numbers of examples where the human pressures on islands, on coastal areas, have contributed a great deal to degradation, pollution, etc. Mark, in his presentation, gave one or two examples of the island communities that have done very well in looking after their environment. What I would like both speakers to say a little bit on is if they’ve any idea of what makes the difference between communities that really do care for their environment and those that don’t. And I would like to suggest that remoteness can be a very positive factor and I can think of three examples in UK Overseas Territories where the local community has been remarkably important for regeneration. Ascension Island, St Helena and Tristan da Cunha.

Sue MacGregor: Right, John, would you like to tackle that one first: the effect of humans. 

John Turner: Yes, humans can obviously create protected areas but they are tiny. I refer you back to my graphs of the disappointing record of creating Marine Protected Areas. We’re not doing enough. Point six – it depends whether you take strict marine reserves or broader protected areas - but we’re looking at maybe point six, up to one point four percent, of the oceans are actually protected by these means. And many of those are not really protected. And I’d also draw your attention as well to those graphs I showed for all the other Indian Ocean islands. There are good examples off the East African coast where - Mark showed one, Chumbe Island - where there’s wonderful protection. I dived those reefs just a few months ago. They’re not in that great shape. There’s a lot of protection going on but it doesn’t mean the reefs are excellent. And just remember that yellow bar for Chagos, that’s what happens if you’re not exploiting that environment. 

Sue MacGregor: Welcome to all the Chagossians who are arriving. Sorry you’ve missed some of this debate but you’re most welcome to join in if you wish to. While you’re settling down, Mark, let me ask you to tackle the question of human influence. 

Mark Spalding: Okay. John’s right and I think I alluded to it. If you look at some of those areas such as Chumbe Island off Tanzania, Apo Island in the Philippines, they’re often touted as environmental success stories. People have turned things around in some of those islands through good management, whether it’s a tourist or a fishery or whatever that’s being better controlled than it was, things are recovering. But John’s right – they’re still not a patch on Chagos…these are still…you won’t see many big fish and they’re not functioning properly. I think the fairer comparison to make, as I said before, is with these remote areas where you’ve got a small land area, a relatively small population, huge area of reef. So in a sense, yes, I agree with you that there are probably good examples, some of the best examples, of truly near-pristine examples, in remote places which are perhaps a better model for us. And actually, I would point us also to the Great Barrier Reef. It’s also run by a developed country. It’s a vast area of reefs, and there are two or three or four islands on the Great Barrier Reef which are managed for research and for limited tourism - I’m thinking Lizard Island, Orpheus Island - where the impact is pretty small because it’s well managed and where there’s a vast area of reefs. Sorry, one other point is that I think education and awareness of the problems is also really critical in this. The reason we’ve in a mess is because we haven’t known enough and local peoples haven’t known enough to do better.

Sue MacGregor: Philippa has just signalled to me that we can have another five minutes because we lost a bit of time right at the beginning. So sir, may I ask you your question and could you tell us who you are?

Audience member 6 (Bashir Khan): Thank you. My name is Bashir Khan from Chagos Refugees Group. Before I ask my question, I just wanted to get clarification. I understand that the MPA applies— 

Sue MacGregor: That is the Marine Protected Area.

Bashir Khan: …applies to the outer islands and not to Diego Garcia. I would like to see any scientist or any report justify how we could have a protection for the outer islands when the same, part of Diego Garcia which is part of the Chagos, does not apply, we don’t need to protect. So that’s another question. But my main question is not directly—

Sue MacGregor: Sir, can I just interrupt you for a second? Can anyone here confirm, does the MPA not apply to Diego Garcia?

[Several audience members shout ‘Yes’]

Sue MacGregor: That is correct?

John Turner: It does not apply.

Sue MacGregor: It does not apply?

[Audience member shouts ‘No’]

Sue MacGregor: Thank you, mam. You’re one of the experts here, we go to you...

Bashir Khan: So my question, although it’s not directly to Mark, but Mark ended up by saying ‘resettlement, yes, but…’. I hope it’s a very small but. Let us really be sincere with ourselves. This question should not be asked in the first place because we already have a settled community in the Chagos, which is a military settlement. So how could it be that a military settlement is acceptable when the lawful inhabitants are not allowed to settle there?

Audience member 7 (Sabrina Jean): I agree with him!

[Applause]

Bashir Khan: In other words, in other words, what we have, to put it in our current London climate of squatters, we have a military squatters having taken over the rightful inhabitants, inhabitation, of the Chagossians. 

Sue MacGregor: Sir, thank you for your comment. 

[Applause]

Sue MacGregor: I won’t ask the scientists, who are not politicians, to comment on that but there’ll be lots of debate throughout the day which at various points can be picked up. This is really about biodiversity as well as of course about your beloved home. Sir, can I ask you for your question just before the break. This will be the last question of the series. 

Audience member 8 (Phil Williamson): My name is Phil Williamson. I will now ask a reef science question to both John and Mark. In John’s graphs you showed the surface at the depth of twenty metres and the recovery rates over the last ten years or so. My question is in part a comment on the surveys of the corals below twenty metres – because I was surprised that that wasn’t brought out by either of the speakers. But my understanding is that the biodiversity of the Chagos at deeper than twenty metres - twenty metres to sixty metres - is particularly unusual and (inaudible). Although I appreciate the difficulties in surveying that but one of the aspects is the water clarity and the water clarity depends on the land run off of nutrients and pollution and (inaudible). But the question, the question is whether the recovery of the reefs after bleaching directly is influenced by having corals at a greater depth that are able to repopulate locally in deeper than twenty metres to the more surface corals. Is that the main mechanism for recovery?

Sue MacGregor: John, would you like to go to that? It’s the depth at which the corals are and how that affects how quickly they can recover. John. 

John Turner: Yes, of course, in Chagos there are corals down quite a lot deeper than twenty metres. We are limited to the depths at which we can work in such a remote location and the infrastructure to use more sophisticated methods to look deeper is not available to us in such a place. But you can see deeper and there is no doubt that there are many corals there. They are unique, some of them. They have been healthy but there has been bleaching at that depth. And if you noticed on the graphs - I didn’t have time to bring that out - but actually recovery has been poorer at the deeper depth. Umm, because the waters are very clear, we probably have quite a lot of photo as well as heat damage that has extended perhaps deeper than in other places. Interestingly, the lagoons on the islands are also deep in many places. But the corals have been less affected, particularly in the northern atolls in deeper water in the lagoons, perhaps because they are better acclimated to those conditions. 

Sue MacGregor: John, thank you. Mark. 

Mark Spalding: I agree with what John said. I think scientists are still feeling our way in understanding climate change impacts on reefs and the recovery of reefs. There’s quite a lot of evidence that there are refugia. Some of these species are hanging on in deeper waters and that’s how the recovery is quick. But I don’t think there’s much evidence from Chagos, so it’s a good question. There’s a lot we still need to learn. 

Sue MacGregor: Well there’s a lot still to discuss today. My very warmest thanks to the two first speakers in the first session; Dr Mark Spalding and Dr John Turner, and you for being such a good audience. The Chagossians have just arrived. Now is the time for a coffee break. We’re going to ask you to be as quick as possible. Out, coffee, and back as fast as possible. I think it might be a good idea if some of you, if you don’t mind, bring your coffee back in with you just to save a bit of time. The next session is due to start at eleven thirty. It may fall back a bit in time but that will be about the impact of humans. We’ve been talking mainly about the impact of climate change but not necessarily. So quick break, ten minutes or so. Thank you very much indeed.
Session 2: Human Impact Now
Chair: Rebecca Stott
Lead Speakers: William Marsden, John Howell & David Vine

Rebecca Stott: I’m going to be chairing this session today. Welcome to everyone. We have a room full of people with very diverse interests, experiences and specialisms and I think this is going to be another very interesting session. A couple of announcements before we begin. For the Chagossian people who are here today there is going to be a group photograph from the Guardian newspaper that will take place immediately after this session. So those of you who are going to be in that picture, please gather on the terrace after this session for what will be a double-page photo. Secondly, we are needing to do a translation of these papers and so as a result, our speakers have very kindly agreed to cut down their papers, shorten them, so we can allow time for translation. So please bear that in mind. Finally, just as in the last session, when we have finished the three papers – I’m going to introduce our speakers in a moment – when we’ve finished the three papers, if you have comments to make, questions to ask, please make your way to one of the two microphones and there will be, as in the last session, a queue, so please make your way to one of those microphones and I will take the questions and statements in turn. Okay, briefly then, I’m going to introduce our speakers. Further information about them is on your sheets. First of all we’re going to go in the following order: William Marsden, first of all, Chair of the Chagos Conservation Trust; John Howell, who is the economic advisor of the Chagos Refugees Group; and on my right here, David Vine, who is the author of ‘Island of Shame: The Secret History of the US Military Base on Diego Garcia’. And also, hello, Marie-France, our translator. So we’re going to go in that order, beginning with William Marsden. Thank you very much.

William Marsden: [Speaks in French, introducing himself]. I’ll speak in English. Thank you very much for inviting me to speak as a conservationist and Chairman of the Chagos Conservation Trust at this conference about the Chagos Marine Protected Area, Chagossians and the future. Ҫa va? Je continue?

David Vine: A little bit more slowly.

William Marsden: A little bit more slowly? Okay. I think you heard that but I think we can move on. I am Chairman of the Conservation Trust and I am also a conservationist. You might not have made that out from the programme because my details really airbrushed the last twelve years of my life when I’ve been so engaged in conservation. 

[Marie-France Bheeka translates into Kreol]

William Marsden: But I’m a conservationist with very much affection for the Chagossians and as I say, I’ve had the great pleasure over the last two years of being involved in quite a lot of events, including events with the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and your own events in Crawley, and also the scholarship programmes. 

[Marie-France Bheeka translates into Kreol] 

Marie-France Bheeka (to William Marsden): Was it the scholarships you were talking about?

William Marsden (to Marie-France Bheeka): The scholarships of the Chagossians who’ve been trained…

[Marie-France Bheeka translates into Kreol]

William Marsden: Today I will speak very, very briefly on the three subjects of which the themes of the conference: human impact which is the subject of this session; the marine protected area; and I shall have three practical proposals to suggest for greater Chagossian involvement. 

[Marie-France Bheeka translates into Kreol]

William Marsden: The Chagos Conservation Trust is a voluntary society which has the aims of conservation, science and education, and the Trust co-operates with many other individuals and organisations, and is a member of the Chagos Environment Network which is a group of other leading conservation and scientific organisations. 

[Silence]

William Marsden: Shall I go on? CCT and CEN seek to protect the rich biodiversity that is the natural life of the Chagos Archipelago and its surrounding waters. And they were extremely supportive of the British Government’s decision in April 2010 to create a Marine Protected Area. And on the Marine Protected Area, we see it as one of Britain’s greatest contributions in international efforts to protect the planet’s environment and to conserve the world’s oceans. It makes a significant contribution to specific international commitments, including the Royal Summit’s commitment to establishing national networks of Marine Protected Areas by 2012. 

[Silence]

William Marsden: [Asks in French whether he should speak in French]

Philippa Gregory: William, I’m so sorry. What we’re going to do is I’m taking notes. We’re going to give a report when you’ve finished; otherwise we’ll never get there. Thank you.

William Marsden: Okay. There is a lady called Sylvia Earle who some of us know and have met and she’s a sort of American combination of Ben Fogle and Sir David Attenborough.

The Labour government introduced the legislation for the Marine Protected Area in April 2010. Our present government, the Coalition government, reviewed many decisions taken by the previous government, including the designation of the Chagos Marine Reserve, and it announced in October 2010 that it stood fully behind the decision to establish the Marine Protected Area. Mr Henry Bellingham, the Minister responsible for the Overseas Territories, said the government believes that the Marine Protected Area is the right way forward for furthering the environmental protection of the territory and for encouraging other countries to do the same in important and vulnerable areas under their control. He explained that the BIOT administration, and the government behind it, is working in these areas: implementing legislation, enforcement arrangements, establishing administrative and scientific research frameworks, funding, dialogue with interested parties – some of them are here -, and exploring opportunities for involving representatives of the Chagossian community in environmental work in the territory. That’s all I will say about the MPA. 

Now on human impact. Neither CCT, my organisation, the Chagos Conservation Trust, nor the Chagos Environment Network, which is the wider group, a very distinguished - much more distinguished than us - group of organisations; none of them, on the basis of their constitutions, have ever taken a position on the legal and political principles of the right of Chagossian return or compensation. That is for government and courts. Our conservation work, and our conservation work with you, is done within whatever legal framework is set. For forty years the Chagossians have been denied the right to live in the Chagos. That policy pre-dates and is separate from the MPA. And here I would take a little issue with the comments by Sue MacGregor at the beginning of our meeting because, as I say, that policy long pre-dates the Marine Protected Area. The Marine Protected Area and indeed, conservation interests generally, have had absolutely no influence whatsoever on the creation of that policy. And very, very importantly for everybody, the Chagos Marine Protected Area is without prejudice, which is a sort of legal term, to legal and political decisions on Chagossian return. And that is really important now and for the future, because it means that appropriate modifications to the MPA can, and no doubt will, be taken and made to the MPA if Chagossian return is agreed. Meanwhile, the Marine Protected Area will make sure that the Chagos remains in the healthiest possible state for any future scenario. Nobody’s going to scoop up all the fish, smash the corals, pollute the waters. So Chagossians who do go to the Chagos will find it in the healthiest possible state that it can be. And that is certainly good for Chagossians who care about the protection of the Chagos. And it’s certainly good for millions of people in and around the Indian Ocean, who stand to benefit from the Marine Protected Areas’ positive effects on the ocean, including a positive effect for the Indian Ocean fishery stocks which have been so badly managed by the Indian Ocean arrangements, and drastically reduced. 

In practice, however, I think real modifications can only be sensibly planned – and somebody talked about – when the new scenario is better known; for example, when it becomes clear how many people, how many of you, will actually return, where precisely you’re going to go to, and what they will do when they're there. If there is resettlement, it would be for reasons, frankly, unconnected with conservation. Good reasons, no doubt. Because re-population of the Chagos is not necessarily for conservation. In fact – and I think that this was said by the earlier speakers – depending on how many people return, depend an awful lot on what they did kind of activities they’re involved in, it could well be detrimental for conservation. So given the value and viability of the Chagos Archipelago which the scientists talked about earlier, CCT, my organisation, and I think other conservation organisations, would no doubt look for a very low negative human impact from the new presence of people. They would surely not support resettlement proposals which stood to do significant damage to the ecology of the Chagos or to be unsustainable for people and the environment. And there have been some such proposals in the past, such as the Chagos Support Association, which is represented here. The Chagos Association’s report of 2008 ‘Returning Home: A proposal for the resettlement of the Chagos Islands’. This involved progressive immersion and extractive infrastructure, construction and development activity which was, it seemed to us, clearly incompatible with serious conservation. And such proposals may well be unsustainable in the long-term, given the delicate environment and sea level rise which has been much discussed today. It’s not impossible that a significant number of the tiny Chagos islands will be under water or without fresh water in the course of this century. So – and I end on this theme here – so further analysis of the risks is needed and also, I think, is needed is imaginative consideration of a realistic framework for the benefit of Chagossians, science, funding, outreach and enforcement, and I think it’s a very good thing that Ben and Philippa have brought us together today because that seems to me the kind of area that we really need to be thinking about.

Now finally, and briefly, I will make our – this is from the Chagos Conservation Trust - three positive proposals which we hope the organisers would include in the conference conclusions, obviously, alongside no doubt many other good proposals. The first one is more support for Chagossian involvement with conservation in the period before we know what the outcome on resettlement is going to be. The Diego Garcia and Chagos Islands Council which I think is pretty well represented here - and as I say, I live down the railway line from them - has made it clear their support for the Marine Reserve and their interest in being involved. And CCT, together especially with the RSPB who have been marvellous throughout in supporting this; Coral Cay Conservation, represented here by Pete Raines though he’s broken his leg and he’s walking around on crutches; and ZSL, the Zoological Society of London are working with the Diego Garcia and Chagos Islands Council for Conservation and we want to co-operate with other groups so do speak to us about areas where you would like to be involved in. 

We strongly and actively support with CCT and with CEN in this activity. This currently includes three areas: training Chagossian in conservation skills relevant to Chagos, and they’ve been some wonderful examples of that. Maybe some of the scholars are here tonight. Two is involving Chagossians in practical projects in the Chagos now, and I’m very glad to say that next month Chagossians will be visiting the British Indian Ocean Territory for actively being involved and working in the Barton Point Restoration project on the non-military side of Diego Garcia. And the third area is possible future employment for Chagossians, maybe for you, for some of your children who are now being educated perhaps in scientific areas, and that seems to be, for me, an important aspect. 

The second proposal is this: the text is with Simon Hughes. Simon, could you stand up? He’s got copies. This is for a scientific facility. We support it. I know that others do. The proposal put forward in 2008 by scientists with CCT support for such a facility remains valid. The problem then was that there was not enough money. A summary is available, we’ve got it. Much new science requires equipment which cannot simply be flown out on a temporary basis. It needs a non-humid, fixed location. This could respond to many requests from researchers and institutions, for measurements and readings. The facility would be much more effective in Diego Garcia than in an outer island. That is because of the logistic cost and environmental reasons, and with resources limited, the priorities for the reserve are essentially to more monitoring, science and enforcement, but this research facility could fit in with that. And it needs to be discussed with both the government and with the scientific advisory group. 

The third proposal is consideration of the Aldabra solution. As you know, there’s another atoll in the Indian Ocean, Aldabra. That might have been the American base but it turned out to be in the Chagos. Aldabra is managed in a way which involves limited and strictly controlled vessel-based scientific and touristic visiting. I know the British government doesn’t agree with this but I think that it is an area where we ought to be looking at something like that perhaps, for the benefit of the following kind of areas: Chagossians, income for the Marine Protected Area, science, outreach and involvement in employment. Thank you very much indeed and I hope that this conference continues to be as constructive as it has been so far.

Rebecca Stott: Okay, we’re going to have a very, very brief summary, translation.

[Marie-France Bheeka provides summary in Kreol]

Audience member 9 (Allen Vincatassin): No, that’s the wrong translation actually, sorry. That’s the wrong translation.

Audience member 10 (unidentified): Very stupid, it’s very stupid.

[Audience discussion]

Audience member 11 (unidentified): Allez, allez.

[Marie-France Bheeka continues to translate into Kreol]
 
[Audience discussion]

Sabrina Jean: If we say today, what will happen?

Philippa Gregory: Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute.

Rebecca Stott: If you could please, if you could keep…we’re translating. We’re not taking comments and questions yet. We’re going to listen to three papers. 

Audience member 12 (unidentified): [Asks question (inaudible)]

Rebecca Stott [Simultaneously]: We’ll be taking— We’ll be taking. Excuse me gentle—
Excuse me sir, if you could just wait until after the three papers, then we will take comments and questions. 

Audience member 12 (unidentified): If you could listen one second to what I have to say. 

Philippa Gregory: No, I’m sorry. We can’t, we have to have the panel first. 

Rebecca Stott: We’ll have the three— I will come back to your question, I promise you, and to any other comments that will be made. But we will do that after the three papers. 

Allen Vincatassin: Translation has to stop. If we have one, it should be at the same time or we don’t have one. Thank you.

[Marie-France Bheeka continues to translate into Kreol]

[Audience discussion and shouting]

Rebecca Stott: We’re going to move on to the second presentation now, which will be a short presentation by John Howell. We will also have a translation summary at the end of that presentation. 

[Audience discussion continues]

Rebecca Stott: We understand the frustration at the translation situation here so we’re going to try and have a go at simultaneous translation, which involves the presenters speaking at shorter lengths, so if you could be patient with us, we’ll try and do our best here, okay?

John Howell: Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, everybody. My name is John Howell. I have been an economic advisor for the Chagos Refugees Group but I’m speaking today in an independent capacity. I’m not speaking on behalf of the Chagos Refugees Group. The co-chairs have asked us to consider—

Laura Jeffery: John, could you do one sentence at a time?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: Now the co-chairs, in their introductions, have asked us to look at the new proposals on settlement involving a science facility and conservation management arrangements, and how Chagossians could be involved in those. William Marsden has alluded to those proposals in his talk.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: I too would like to move forward but I think we also should look back to the 2008 proposals on resettlement produced by the Chagos Refugees Group.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: The background to those proposals was this: that the British government’s position in court was that resettlement was not economically feasible, would be inordinate and costly and would be highly risky from an environmental point of view.
 
[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: We felt the weakness in the government position was that none of their feasibility studies had considered economic aspects of resettlement, had not considered costs, and had not consulted Chagossians. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: Our proposals were designed to create a dialogue with the British government and lead to a new independent study on the feasibility of resettlement. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: As you know, we didn’t have a dialogue, we haven’t had an independent study, we haven’t even had a letter of thanks, but there you go.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: Our starting point was: how many Chagossians would want to return and what would they do on return?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: We worked – and by we, I mean me and a number of very useful volunteers from Mauritius - worked for three days with small representative groups of Chagossians – around forty Chagossians – on different questions. And finally we had a full day meeting with the Executive of the Chagos Refugees Group.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: The framework we agreed upon was we would look at the resettlement of a hundred and fifty families on Peros Banhos over a five-year period. That was the planning framework that we used.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: And we would use that experience to look at next steps.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: We ruled out the idea of self-sufficiency. I know some people here might think we were wrong to do that, but self-sufficiency would not meet the reasonable expectations of Chagossians, but also self-sufficiency could lead to the serious risk of subsistence living on a survivalist basis, which could clearly do a good deal of damage to the environment that the Chagossians wish to protect.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: So we looked at: where would incomes for families come from, where would revenues for the islands come from?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: Now they are in proposals and I don't wish to go over those now because I want to look forward and I don’t think it would be productive to go over those particular proposals at this stage.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: But I do want to make two points about the consultation. Both relate to the extent to which Chagossians accepted the need for regulation. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: The right to resettlement is one thing. We were talking about the right to be allocated a house and a plot with that house. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol] 

John Howell: And it was agreed that only—

[Audience member shouts comment in Kreol]

John Howell: I’m very sorry. 

Laura Jeffery: Pardon?

[Audience member repeats comment in Kreol]

[Laura Jeffery laughs]

Laura Jeffery: He’s saying “we’ll go”.

John Howell: It was agreed that eligibility for housing and a plot would go to families with economically active members – not all economically active but economically active members. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: It was agreed that people who were allocated houses and plots, if they were not living there for long periods, they would forfeit the right to that house and plot.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: On the environment, Chagossians agreed there would be regulation of fishing and fishing zones. The talk was of regulated commercial fishing, not of subsistence fishing. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: There was agreement on the prohibition of the killing of crabs and turtles and of taking coral. There was agreement on the need to protect bird sanctuaries. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: I made these points about the Chagossian agreements because I was dealing with a serious-minded and mature group of people. The fears that people have about unregulated, uncontrolled resettlement are not borne out by my experience. There’s a real concern about making the resettlement work, being economically productive and protecting their environment.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: We were well aware of some of the risks in this proposal: the risk that private investment - even though we were looking at very small levels of investment in fresh fish exports and eco-tourism, if that investment was not maintained over a period of time and if Chagossians didn’t remain economically active, there would be risks to resettlement. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: When we look at the current proposals, we can consider whether some of those risks on private investment and on the numbers of Chagossians returning could be mitigated by a much slower start on resettlement based upon the creation of a research facility. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: But we also need to consider two points: one, how such a facility could be developed, both on international grounds and on Chagossian self-interest grounds, into a centre where a number of visiting scientists and post-graduate students would be able to spend time in the Chagos Islands.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: We need to generate long-term, permanent jobs for Chagossians in a range of skills that would support a small conference and research facility.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: But above all, we have to recognise that this is a question of redressing a major injustice and whatever compromises might be made on starting with a small facility, we need to keep in mind there is a much bigger picture here: Chagossian resentment is well documented and they will not be fobbed off by a minor role in a facility governed by others, by outsiders.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

John Howell: I have other points to make about how we can move forward but for now I think I will leave that so we can move on with discussion.

Rebecca Stott: Can I just thank you both very, very much, both for shortening your paper John, and for Laura who has stepped in. She is one of our speakers today. She is an academic, not expecting to simultaneously translate, who’s just done a fantastic job. Can I introduce our third speaker who is also going to try to shorten his paper so we can have a translation? Laura, you’re happy to continue translating? And then we will have discussion and questions after that.

David Vine: [Greets audience in Kreol]. Good afternoon everyone. [Thanks the organisers and participants in Kreol]. Thank you to everyone for coming today. [Speaks in Kreol]. I’m speaking today only with the help of my Chagossian friends. I’m going to try to speak quickly and, I think, with Laura’s help. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Audience members laugh]

David Vine: There’s no time for jokes. Today I’m going to try to answer the question: Why did the US and British governments remove the Chagossians from their homeland?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: And why are they preventing the Chagossians from returning today?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: I want to do four things: first, I’ll explain how and why the US government came up with the idea, ordered and paid for the Chagossians’ exile…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …why they did that for political and legal, rather than military, reasons.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Second, I’ll show how the Chagossians’ expulsion is part of a larger pattern of base-displacement…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …a pattern where the United States has repeatedly displaced local peoples to create military facilities outside the United States. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Third, I’ll show how this pattern of displacement illuminates the racism and imperialism underlying the Chagossians’ expulsion.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: And fourth, I will show how contrary to the claims of some US and British officials, there was no military necessity that required the expulsion of the Chagossians.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: There was no military necessity in the 1960s and ‘70s and there’s no military necessity that requires the continued ban today.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Let me begin by introducing you to Stuart Barber, the man on the right…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …a civilian who works in the US navy in the late 1950s…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …during the era of decolonisation

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Stuart Barber and others were growing increasingly concerned that the United States would lose many of its overseas military bases. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: As colonies like Mauritius were gaining their independence, Barber and others feared that new independent nations would evict the United States from bases.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Barber’s solution to this perceived problem was what he called ‘the strategic island concept’.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Instead of traditional military bases near populated areas…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine:…Barber argued the US military should focus on acquiring bases…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine:…on small, lightly populated islands.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: According to Barber, strategically located, remote island bases would protect the nation’s future freedom of military action...

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …and its dominant political, military and economic position in the world.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Barber searched around the world, as you can see, and found what he called ‘that beautiful atoll’ of Diego Garcia. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Quickly, many in the US government adopted Barber’s strategic island concept and his plan to build a base on Diego Garcia. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: For officials like these, strategically located island bases… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine:…offered a way to control areas around the Indian Ocean through military force. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: In short, US government officials think of local peoples like the Chagossians as the source of troubles, headaches and additional work. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: The strategic island concept proposed that the best solution to this problem…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …was simply to remove the Chagossians… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …and with them, governments like that of Mauritius, through the excision of Chagos from colonial Mauritius. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: The answer for US government officials was simple: remove them all. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: With the British government willing to do the dirty work of the removals, the United States would have, in their minds, almost a perfect base. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Strategically located,… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …free of any potentially troublesome population,… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …under de-facto US control…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …but with Britain ready to take any political criticism for the removals.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: It’s no wonder the US navy called Diego Garcia ‘Fantasy Island’.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: US officials began conversations about Diego Garcia in 1960. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: They suggested the creation of the British Indian Ocean Territory… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …with the help of a three million pound bribe for Mauritius.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: US officials next insisted that the United States gain…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …exclusive control without local inhabitants.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: This is an expulsion order, embedded in a parenthetical phrase.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: US and British officials next agreed the United States would secretly pay fourteen million dollars…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine:…for access to Diego Garcia and for the removals.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: And then, in 1971,… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …after the start of construction on Diego,…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …the highest ranking admiral in the US navy…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …gave the final expulsion order in three chilling words:…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …‘Absolutely must go’.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: Doing good. We must have some discussion and lunch.

David Vine: Okay. Quickly, let me point to eighteen other cases of base displacement like that affecting the Chagossians. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: What can we learn from this pattern?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: The Chagossians’ expulsion was an act of racism… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …because Chagossians were considered black...

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Audience applause]

David Vine: because they were small in number and lacked political and economic power, they were an easy target for removal. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: As the CIA put it, they were N-E-G-L: negligible.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Finally, US and British officials have often said the removal was a matter of military necessity. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: This is false… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: …and let me give you ten quick reasons why. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: First, there’s already a sizeable population of Mauritians and Filipinos and others living and working on Diego Garcia.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Audience applause] 

David Vine: Second, dozens of yachties harbour their yachts at any one time in the Archipelago. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Third, the Chagossians have initially asked only for the right to resettle the outer islands which are more than two hundred kilometres from Diego Garcia. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Fourth, bases around the world co-exist with local populations.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Here are two: Okinawa, Guantanamo Bay.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Fifth, as Chagossians have pointed out, they aren’t terrorists, as many US officials have alleged. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Audience applause]

David Vine: Sixth, in 2000, the UK and US governments allowed the Chagossians to return after the first Bancoult decision.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Seven, an eminent national security scholar, Lawrence Korb, and former Assistant Secretary of Defense, said ‘there is no good national security reason for not allowing Chagossians to return to all of Chagos, including Diego Garcia’.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Eighth, there’s another case in the Pacific Ocean where the US navy allowed a local population to return and live next to the base. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: The only difference in the Bonin Volcano Islands was the colour of the Islanders’ skin.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Ninth, perhaps the most important piece of evidence came in a 1991 letter. The letter said ‘there is no good reason for convicting the Chagossians’. Who wrote the letter? Stuart Barber, the originator of the plan to build the base on Diego Garcia. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: In another letter, finally, Barber said “the expulsion wasn’t necessary militarily”. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

David Vine: Merci beaucoup, thank you.

[Audience applause]

Rebecca Stott: Thank you to Laura, again, and to David for managing that brilliantly. Thank you, you did really well. I understand we’re now going to have a lunch break from one o’clock until one thirty. So I’m afraid that it’s a shorter lunch break but it goes give us a bit of time now to discuss three really interesting presentations that have come at this set of issues from very different angles. So those of you who want to speak, ask a question, make a comment, please make your way to one of the two microphones and I will take comments in turn. So, first gentleman.

Audience member 13 (Alan Donaldson): Is it working? My name is Alan Donaldson and I worked on Aldabra Atoll for a year, to my embarrassment in the end, because Aldabra was also chosen as a possible airbase for the US and I think we should remember that the Chagossians were evicted so that the tortoises and flightless birds on Aldabra could live on quietly, which is sad. My question is: do we know how much rent the British get from the US if they do get rent, and if they do, it should be going to the Chagossians to help them resettle.

[Applause and cheering]

Alan Donaldson: Does anybody know that? Nothing? There’s no lease?

Rebecca Stott: Does anybody have an answer to that question?

Audience member 14 (unidentified): Yes, there is no lease.

William Marsden: Yes, it’s rent-free I think. 

Alan Donaldson: Okay, there’s no lease, right. 

David Vine: The UK received fourteen million pounds in the 1960s and early 1970s.

Alan Donaldson: Philippa and I wish to make one five-second message. There’s an important man here. Could you stand up, John? Aged ninety. He’s come all the way from Northumberland. He’s been raising money for the Chagossian group for ten years. He was stationed on Diego Garcia in 1945 and may know some of your relatives. He’d love to meet you at lunch. We’ve got a little stall. There he is, ninety years old and still raising money for you.

[Applause] 

Rebecca Stott: Did you want to say something?

[David Vine translates Alan Donaldson’s message into Kreol]

Audience member 15 (unidentified): [Speaks in Kreol].

Sabrina Jean: Yes! Yeah! 

[Applause]

Audience member 15: [Continues in Kreol]. 

Audience members: Yeah!

Audience member 15: [Continues in Kreol]. What he talking about? [Continues in Kreol].

[Applause]

Audience member 15: [Continues in Kreol].

David Vine: [Poses question to Audience member 15 in Kreol].

Audience member 15: [Responds in Kreol].

Audience member 16 (unidentified): Sorry, could somebody translate into English?

Rebecca Stott: Yes, we’re just asking David to translate. And can I?

Audience member 15: That’s right, I need someone to translate, translate here. Everybody is (inaudible), okay?

Rebecca Stott: David is going to— Oh, Laura is going to translate.

Audience member 15: Yes, alright.

Audience members: Allez!

[Laura Jeffery and Audience member 15 clarify names of presenters in Kreol, engage in further discussion]

Laura Jeffery (to John Howell): He’s asking whether you represent the international human rights board.

John Howell: No.

Laura Jeffery: [Responds in Kreol] No, he’s independent.

Audience member 15: [Continues in Kreol].

Laura Jeffery: So this gentleman is saying that David Howell’s talk was about resettling Chagos and training Chagossians and building houses and so forth, but this gentleman is not interested in that. He would prefer to talk about the forty/forty-five years of suffering of the Chagossian people who are looking for compensation. 

Audience member 15: [Continues in Kreol].

Laura Jeffery: So he’s saying that the government of Seychelles managed to avoid Aldabra being used but the UK government treated the Mauritian government like pigs. 

Rebecca Stott: Thank you sir, we’ve heard this point. 

Audience member 15: Sorry! (inaudible) 

Rebecca Stott [Simultaneously]: I must allow other people. We have five minutes before lunch. 

Audience member 15: This situation now for Chagos people—

Rebecca Stott: There are other people. We understand that.

Audience member 15: This situation now, for people to explain what happened before, what they did. 

Rebecca Stott: I understand that sir but I’m going to move on to the next point now because my job is to ensure that we have plenty of comments from the floor and I need to move on now. 

Audience member 15 [Simultaneously]: I’m sorry! Yes, I’m sorry. But if you–

Rebecca Stott: There will be other opportunities later in the day for you to comment so can I take the next person please?

David Snoxell: Thank you. David Snoxell speaking. I do understand the emotions of many of our Chagossian friends here today but could I get back to a specific point? William Marsden, the Chairman of the Chagos Conservation Trust, said how much the Trust is doing for the Chagossians and he mentioned the scholarship programme. I think it would be very helpful for everybody here to know (inaudible) to say: how many scholarships are available, for how long, in what subjects, and whether they’re available for all Chagossians, whether they come from Mauritius or Seychelles. And I would also like to just add on the question of the Marine Protected Area—

[Audience discussion. Hushing]

Rebecca Stott: Could I ask people just to keep their voices down a little bit just so that we can finish this discussion before lunch? Could you listen to the question now please?

[Audience discussion continues]

David Snoxell: Okay, could you let me finish? Thank you. Indeed, William was quite correct to say that two hundred and seventy seven thousand people actually petitioned for a Marine Protected Area, but what does it mean? What I think we must also add is that of those two hundred and seventy seven thousand, two hundred and fifty four thousand six hundred also appealed to the Foreign Secretary to work with Chagossians to protect these important reefs and our oceans’ future. And indeed one of the petitions, from the Marine Education Trust which I represented, said in its petition ‘Any failure to include adequately the Chagossians and the government of Mauritius in the development of an MPA undermines the transparency of the process and threatens its long-term effectiveness’. Thank you.

[Minor applause]

Rebecca Stott: Could you translate? Thank you. 

Laura Jeffery: Yes. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

William Marsden: On the scholarship and training programme, the specific proposal that we have made is that other organisations should join us. We’re relatively small and the RSPB, are even increasing the size of the programme. But we’ve done pretty well. The main problem is to get a Chagossian out to the Chagos Islands costs an enormous amount of money, because they have to fly to Singapore, stay in a hotel and then go on an American Air plane to the Chagos and the American Air Force charges a lot of money. It’s something like eight thousand pounds to get one Chagossian out to the Chagos. Well, in June we’re doing two of that at sixteen thousand pounds, just to give you an idea of what the cost. Less expensive are the programmes that we have had with Chagossians on the Coral Cay Conservation; a wonderful programme of teaching the science of coral reefs and how to protect coral reefs, and the Coral Cay Conservation have done that with Chagossians in the Caribbean. I think those scholarships were a proven success. But again, they require nearly not so much. I think for two thousand pounds you can get along away on those. But the basic message from us for today is we want more organisations to be involved in supporting and expanding the programme. But it’s already pretty good. And the other question was such a long time ago. Ah, the petition! No, no, I absolutely agree with you. I think it is very good that in the petition there was a question asking people whether they wanted the Chagossians involved and a huge number of people said yes, and my gosh, we agree with it. 

Rebecca Stott: Laura, are you able to translate?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: I’ve been told that we need to move to lunch now but also to say that those of you who have waited to speak, you will have a chance to speak in the open session immediately after lunch and we would like you to do so, so please hold your questions if you would. And also I would like to thank all of our speakers here today who have given really fascinating and important contributions to this debate, but also to thank Philippa, Ben and Roch for their flexibility in enabling us to have the translation which is, of course, very important. And thank you too for all of your patience. I’m sure we’ll be able to iron out some of these kinks this afternoon. Thanks very much.
Session 3: Future Footprints
Chair: Rebecca Stott
Lead Speakers: Sean Carey, Laura Jeffery, Richard Dunne & Paul Gardiner

—Initial proceedings missing—

Unidentified speaker: There will also be postcards on which people can note the questions and any which are not answered today will be answered later. 

[Roch Evenor translates into Kreol]

Unidentified speaker: We accept that people are very passionate about the cause today and we want to respect that and to capture that passion for the future, to drive this programme forward. 

[Roch Evenor translates into Kreol]

Unidentified speaker: Rebecca will now continue to chair the programme. Thank you. 

[Roch Evenor translates into Kreol]

[Laura Jeffery asks the audience in Kreol whether they would like her to continue to translate. Audience members respond affirmatively]

Rebecca Stott (to Laura Jeffery): You’re going to translate?

Laura Jeffery (to Rebecca Stott): Apparently.

Rebecca Stott: Okay. Hello again. My name is Rebecca Stott, I am a historian of science and I am here simply to chair this session and I’m very pleased to be here.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: I will just explain a little of how this session is going to work. We’ve already run over time and so my job is to try to enable our four speakers to speak today and for us to make sure that we have discussion time as well, question time afterwards. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: So we will have our four speakers, who I will introduce in a moment. And then if people would like to speak, make comments or ask questions, once our four speakers have finished, please make your way to the microphone; particularly those people who had comments to make in the last session when we ran out of time. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: I will only ask for one thing, which is that the comments that are made, if you could keep them short and very precise so that we have an opportunity for as many voices as possible. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: And now I’m going to introduce the three speakers. First of all we’re going to have Paul Gardiner, who— you have information about him on your programme, but he is involved in running various companies that are involved in sustainable tourism of various different kinds, and he’ll explain to you about that in a few minutes. Then we’re going to have Sean— sorry…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: And then we’re going to have Sean Carey and Laura Jeffery, who are both here as social anthropologists. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: And finally we will have Richard Dunne, who is a barrister, a former naval officer and coral reef scientist, and he’s been involved in both legal and scientific aspects of setting up the MPA. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: So first of all, Paul Gardiner. 

Paul Gardiner: Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. It’s an honour to be part of today and I’m going to tell you a little story that’s been part of my life for the past twenty years. It’s affected my life in many ways, all for good reasons, and it relates to tourism. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: Right, I’m going to ask you to journey back to the eighteen hundreds, what happened in Britain at the time and of course Europe, we were encountered by the Napoleonic Wars and there was a huge socio-economic crisis in Europe.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: So the British looked for a solution and they sent four thousand Brits down to South Africa. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: So these are just some images which reflect the time, of them arriving in South Africa. Now the Eastern Cape in this particular region which I’m going to be talking about is - I’m sure you all know where Cape Town is - this is about seven hundred kilometres east of Cape Town. Now the four thousand families or individuals that travelled to the Eastern Cape, obviously a couple of hundred years ago, this is what they encountered. It was a very harsh land and a very difficult time. They encountered incredible wildlife on their journeys. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: There of course existed an unspoken balance between indigenous man of the area and the wildlife. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, then with the arrival of the Europeans – we had the Dutch, the British and many Germans that settled in the area – of course, what would happen was, if any community settled in the area, agriculture became the order of the day.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: So what happened as a result of that, a lot of hunting took place in our area.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: And all the wildlife was practically wiped out. 

[Audience chatter]

Paul Gardiner: And of course, the result of that, you know, there wasn’t much left. It was agricultural land and the wildlife had been completely wiped out.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Audience member 17 (unidentified): In South Africa?

[Laura Jeffery confirms in Kreol]

Several audience members (unidentified): Not Chagossians? We’re not talking about Chagossians?

Laura Jeffery (to Paul Gardiner): They’d like to hear about Chagos.

Paul Gardiner (to Laura Jeffery): Chagos?

[Audience discussion intensifies]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, I’m just trying to draw— no, that’s okay, I’m trying to draw parallels to our project as it evolved because I think there are, there are several parallels. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Audience member 17: Only one and a half hours to go. 

Laura Jeffery: Pardon?

Audience member 17: One and a half hours to go. We feel we want to talk something.

Audience member 18 (unidentified): Yeah, we want to talk!

Audience member 17: Only one and a half hours.

Paul Gardiner: Alright, that's fine. I’m going to stop the presentation and I’ll tell you about it rather. I think it’s more appropriate. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol].

Audience member 18: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Audience member 17: Definitely. Thank you, thank you.

[Audience chatter continues]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, so what happened was, what happened was, we had this area and back in 1990, we were offered the opportunity to buy a big piece of land - this is my family, right? 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, so we purchased a farm with Sierra wildlife. All the wildlife had been destroyed as I mentioned previously.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: We then added onto that and the land grew and grew and grew, but there was still no wildlife so what we realised we should do there, recognised we should do there, is start creating a tourism project, because there was zero tourism in that province. 
[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: And we therefore did a feasibility study on the area and recognised all the wildlife that had existed there over two centuries ago, and we started bringing back these animals to create, re-create, an attraction which had been destroyed. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, now obviously what happened there was we, as a family, now were bringing back wild animals – lions, leopards, elephants - to an area where they’d been destroyed for some time. It was very difficult for the community and the surrounding farmers to understand this and they laughed at us when we started bringing all these animals back. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, now our turning point in South Africa – and there are slides for this - we came out of apartheid which separated blacks and whites - I'm sure you all know that story - and the turning point for us was in 1992 when we had our first re-elections and the country turned. The eyes of the world were watching South Africa and tourism began flying back to our country as a result of the positiveness of apartheid being crushed. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: So with that, the result was that we had many tourists starting to come to South Africa and we were in the right place at the right time. We had the most incredible location. We were now the closest game reserve to Cape Town. We were a malaria-free game reserve. We had all these incredible animals. We had an alignment with the Born Free Foundation, which gave us mega publicity in the United Kingdom. And so what happened was the project started bubbling over and we started getting many, many tourists to our region. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: In a period of twenty years we moved the number of tourists from a mere fifty thousand to over five hundred thousand, to this particular province that I’m talking about where our game reserve, Shamwari, is today, which I think alone is a successful story, because traditionally, in South Africa, all the tourists would go to an area called the Kruger National Park. They now had an alternative destination to come to. So that area of the Eastern Cape was literally not on the map and we put it on the map through a very successful tourist project. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: Okay, now I’m just going to finish off very quickly to say it was all very well us creating this magnificent tourist project, but the most important thing behind it was that we had to empower the community and educate the community so that we didn’t just put them back there and think that they could go and run a five star luxury game reserve with seven lodges, run a conservation department to look after the animals, run a Born Free Foundation and so on and so forth. We put very strict measures in place to train those communities, because that, to us, was probably the right solution. And it’s worked. Everybody has embraced the project today. They realise that tourism - or the tourist - is so important to the sustainability of this area today. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Paul Gardiner: And that, today, is the story of Shamwari Game Reserve, which has allowed us to grow into a hotel group of fourteen hotels spread around the world today from this one successful project. Our family knew nothing about conservation, nothing about wildlife and nothing about tourism, so I think there’s a lot of hope for this project. I’m privileged to be here. There’s going to be a lot of challenges as I’ve experienced. I only walked in at lunchtime, before lunch, and I heard all the conservation going on. It takes a big person to stand up here and to give us a big push, because I remember when my father stood up twenty years ago. To think that he could bring wildlife back to the Eastern Cape – everybody laughed at him. Every single farmer thought ‘what the hell? Is this guy bringing elephants and giraffes and everything back to the Eastern Cape?’. And today every single one of those farmers have torn down their fences and re-introduced the same wildlife. So I wish you all the best with this project and I hope this has been a little bit more enlightening.

[Laura Jeffery attempts to begin translation]

[Applause]

Rebecca Stott: Thank you very much.

[Laura Jeffery attempts to begin translation]

[Several audience members ask questions in Kreol]

[Laura Jeffery responds in Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: Please do keep your questions until after the presentations. We’re going to have the presentations - short presentations - with translation and then questions for all four speakers afterwards. Okay, I’m now going to introduce Sean and Laura. 

Laura Jeffery: Shall I— can I finish the— Can I say the last bit from the previous point?

[Laura Jeffery translates Paul Gardiner’s final statement into Kreol]

[Applause]

Rebecca Stott: We’re now going to hear from Sean Carey and from Laura Jeffery, who are both social anthropologists.

Sean Carey: Yeah, I’m from Roehampton University and I’m going to be very brief. I won’t take much of your time. But it’s just a bit of history and some population statistics. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Several audience members ask questions and make comments in Kreol]

[General low-level audience discussion]

Audience member 19 (unidentified): Continue Laura!

Rebecca Stott: Yeah, we’re going to continue with the next short presentation. 

Sean Carey: Okay. Yep, you’ll see that slaves originally came from Madagascar and Mozambique, but they came from Mauritius and Seychelles and they came to work on the plantations in Chagos and they arrived in roughly 1783, so late eighteenth century.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: So, abolition of slavery in Mauritius in 1835 meant that some African workers left the workforce and they were replaced by a small number of indentured labourers of Indian origin from Mauritius. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: So, by the turn of the twentieth century – so we’re talking nineteen hundred and something – there was a population of nearly a thousand people in Chagos and there were six villages on Diego Garcia alone.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: Okay, so now we come to the removal and I just thought it would be interesting to talk about some rough numbers. So, you’ll see from the first quote – and this is from Peter Sand, from his book ‘Britain and US in Diego Garcia’ which came out in 2009 – but there were more than one thousand five hundred people living on Diego Garcia and some of the other Chagos Islands. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: Now some of these are undoubtedly some of the temporary workers who had been recruited from Mauritius and the Seychelles but the core of the population had its ancestry since the late eighteenth century. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: Yep, so from 1968 to ’73, the – I think that’s right, yep – the Chagossians were removed. Now what I don’t know actually – maybe Laura knows – is how many people who were not removed who’d gone to the islands before then. But anyway we can leave that to later on.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: But the legal people think - if you look at the last paragraph - the legal people think there were roughly two thousand people there, of whom at least eighty percent had been born on the Chagos Islands, so that’s sixteen hundred people. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: Okay. So the extended Chagossian population today – this means, obviously, people born on Chagos but also second and third generation, and also their spouses and civil partners…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: …and the Chagos Refugee Group estimate for 2007 was nearly five thousand people in the extended Chagossian community. Roughly a thousand— ah, right, okay - a thousand of them, nearly a thousand or just over a thousand, were born in Chagos and of those, seven hundred and twenty five lived in Mauritius; one hundred and seventy five in the Seychelles; and seventy five in the UK.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: Yep, so if we take the population as roughly five thousand, then you’ve got roughly – this is in 2007 – roughly four thousand live in Mauritius; four seven five - or five hundred - in the Seychelles; and six hundred in the UK. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Audience member 20 (unidentified): [Speaks in Kreol]. Why this distribution all people? Why some people in Mauritius, some people in Seychelles, some people in…I don’t know. Why? Question about that.

Rebecca Stott: We’ll come to that discussion very shortly. 

Sean Carey: So we think that in recent years the population distribution has shifted and this will have probably shifted in favour of the number of people living in the UK. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Audience member 21 (unidentified): Now it’s 2011.

Audience member 22 (unidentified): Because the passport is giving (inaudible). 

[Audience chatter]

Sean Carey: Passport figures, here they come.

Rebecca Stott: Passport figures are coming up.

[Some audience members make further comments (inaudible)]

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: So the Administrator of the British Indian Ocean Territory said last year, in May, that they have issued seventeen hundred and ten passports to Chagossians. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: And you’ll see that the number of passports being issued is declining, but we’ll leave aside what the meaning of that is; whether people have already got their passports and are happy sitting on them.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: And then you’ve got a hundred and eighty-one passports were issued to Chagossians in the Seychelles.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Audience member 20: Why give it 2004? Why not give it 1965? Why? Question about that.

Rebecca Stott: Can we let Sean just finish his presentation first?

Sean Carey: I think I might skip this bit. This is just about criteria for British citizenship. 

Laura Jeffery: Yeah, I think you should. 

Sean Carey: So, the question now is how many people live where. And we think that sixty percent live in Mauritius. Now, if there are five thousand people roughly, then that gives us a population figure of three thousand. Five percent in the Seychelles, that’s two hundred and fifty. Thirty percent in the UK, mainly Crawley, Greater London and Manchester, I’m sure you know that. That’s fifteen hundred. Four percent in other European countries, mainly French-speaking countries – France, Belgium and Switzerland – so that gives us two hundred. And we think there might be one percent in Canada, mainly Quebec, so that would give you a population of fifty or so. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Sean Carey: Okay, thank you very much.

[Applause]

Rebecca Stott: Thank you. Now we’re going to hear from Laura Jeffery, to whom we are already extremely grateful for so much of today’s translation. 

Laura Jeffery: [Speaks in Kreol]. I’ll speak in Kreol first and then translate it. [Speaks in Kreol]. What I’m going to talk about today is slightly different from some of the other talks because I’m not talking about history. I’m talking about the project that I’m currently involved in on the future of the Chagossian community. [Speaks in Kreol]. My project is funded by the Economic and Social Research Council. [Speaks in Kreol]. So I’m doing some work on what Chagossians want for their future. [Speaks in Kreol]. So from my previous work, I know that Chagossians can be seen in lots of different ways for what they want for their future: there are Chagossians who want to return to Chagos, Chagossians who want to move to or remain in the UK, and Chagossians who want to return to or remain in Mauritius and the Seychelles. [Speaks in Kreol]. Today I focus on plans for return. [Speaks in Kreol]. So one of my research questions – my first research question – is: What do Chagossians want for their lives, their futures, their children’s and families’ lives, the future of the Chagossian community and the future of Chagos? [Speaks in Kreol]. So my second question is: What ideas do those who want to resettle Chagos have for making settlement of Chagos that is viable and sustainable for the future? [Speaks in Kreol]. My third question is: What would environmental scientists like to tell Chagossians about what they know about Chagos? [Speaks in Kreol]. The third question there, obviously, is one of the ones that a meeting like this is trying to address, but obviously it’s extremely difficult for reasons such as the large numbers of people and the need for translation. [Speaks in Kreol]. So my forth question is: What would Chagossians like to tell environmental scientists about what they know about the environment of the Chagos? [Speaks in Kreol]. 

So one of the things that I would quite like to take out of this presentation is to get some ideas from the floor about what other important questions there are that people think ought to be addressed and I might be able to address through my research. [Speaks in Kreol]. I’m just starting on participant observation with the Chagossian communities in Mauritius, Seychelles, Crawley and Manchester. [Speaks in Kreol]. So I’m organising formal meetings and semi-structured interviews with Chagossians, environmental scientists, government representatives and other stakeholders. [Speaks in Kreol]. So the third thing I’m doing is focus groups with small groups of Chagossians, to try and discuss and develop plans for the future. I’m doing this in two ways: firstly, through the Chagossian groups, and secondly with non-affiliated Chagos Islanders and their descendants. [Speaks in Kreol]. So I’m also going to organise a public consultation to bring together various stakeholders, including Chagossians primarily, and also environmental scientists, government representatives and experts from the fisheries and tourism industries. And I’m going to be organising a meeting like that in Mauritius on the fifteenth of June so I’d be very glad if anybody wants to come. [Speaks in Kreol]. Just to finish with, if anyone has got any ideas for other methods that might help this research to move forward, I’d be very grateful to hear them. [Speaks in Kreol]. So that’s me just finishing. It’s a slightly different presentation but it’s about how we can find out more about what Chagossians want for their futures and what ideas they have about how to make that work.

[Applause]

Rebecca Stott: Thank you very much. In relation to those questions, please do note down anything that you want to feed back to Laura, either individually in later parts of the day or in open discussion after we’ve had the next speaker. Can I introduce Richard Dunne?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. My brief presentation today is to introduce you in more detail to possible ways that we can develop the new Chagos Marine Protected Area to become the pre-eminence of the world; to advance scientific research in the area; and to aid conservation on the islands; and also to allow some return of Chagossians to those islands.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: It involves the idea of a marine park base and a scientific station in the outer atolls. Some parts of my presentation are intended to be an outline only, for development in further discussions today. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Firstly, the concept of a scientific research station – facility, should I say – is not a new idea. It has been proposed at least as far back as 2008 by the Chagos Conservation Trust.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And this has been re-iterated more recently by Charles Sheppard, the BIOT Conservation Advisor. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And if we look at the BIOT Environment Charter from 2001, signed by Alan Huckle, the BIOT Commissioner at the time, and Baroness Amos, we find the principle of the need to study the environmental heritage of the BIOT. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: The concept and idea of a marine park base is a more recent idea which arises from this forum, and it addresses the perceived need for additional resources to adequately patrol the new MPA. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: At present, there is a single patrol vessel, the Pacific Marlin, and in 2008 the Chagos Conservation Trust again remarked that one fishery protection vessel is inadequate for such a huge area. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: If we look at the expenditure on this enforcement, the red line on this graph shows the annual cost from 1992 to 2009 and this is reasonably consistent in recent years, at about one point six million pounds.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: To offset these costs, the BIOT granted commercial fishing licences, which in recent years have brought in about seven hundred thousand pounds per year, as shown by the blue line.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: The net enforcement costs to the public purse have therefore been about nine hundred thousand pounds.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: With the cessation of licences in November of last year, the Deputy BIOT Commissioner announced that BIOT was facing real financial difficulty as a result of the loss of this money. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: This has subsequently been alleviated by a three and a half million pound donation by the Bertarelli Foundation to offset this cost, but this is clearly not a long-term solution.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And a scientific paper in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in 2004 looked at the typical running costs of MPAs throughout the world. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: By using the data and relationships from that, we can estimate that the realistic running costs of the new Chagos MPA is twelve point eight million pounds per year, suggesting that the present spend is at least eightfold too low.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Within the archipelago, the US military base at Diego Garcia where the BIOT control vessel is based, is about a hundred and ten nautical miles south of the outer or northern atolls, principally Peros Banhos and Salomon. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Peros Banhos is the larger of these two atolls; about thirteen nautical miles or twenty-four kilometres across; and Salomon; four nautical miles or seven kilometres. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Let us now turn to consider a possible location for any research station and marine park base in these northern atolls. What might the criteria governing any choice be?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: This slide lists six possible criteria, by no means the only ones but likely the more important.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Firstly, the supply of water of a suitable capacity and quality; a protective anchorage; the possibility of co-locating with the existing yacht anchorages; considerations of island size and elevation; the use of any existing infrastructure; and the possible landing of a patrol aircraft. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: From the extensive 2002 resettlement feasibility study conducted on behalf of the FCO, we have a detailed evaluation of the two most likely locations in Peros Banhos and Salomon. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: The two islands investigated were Ile du Coin in Peros Banhos, shown here in this chart extract in the bottom left-hand corner…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: …the red circles are the yacht anchorages.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And this is the Ile Boddam in Salomon.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And from a fresh water viewpoint we know that both of these islands can support populations of up to three thousand people in the Ile du Coin and one thousand five hundred people on Ile Boddam.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: We also know that both atolls afford reasonable protection from the prevailing wind and wave climate around the Chagos, although Salomon and Ile Boddam is better in this respect.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And we can get a picture of both of these locations. Firstly, Ile du Coin, looking north across the yacht anchorage…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: …and secondly, Ile Boddam, looking from the old settlement, the beach on the old settlement across again to where the yachts are anchored. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And we know that both of these islands are similar, with a maximum elevation of about three and a half metres above chart datum, and most of the land at two metres. Ile du Coin is slightly larger in size than Boddam.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: So is there any existing infrastructure that might be used?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: On Ile Boddam, much of this infrastructure that existed in the 1970s before the Chagossians were removed, has been taken over by nature, as these photographs show. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And this picture from the old plantation manager’s house on Ile du Coin and the jetty on Ile du Coin.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: So I want to now look at the infrastructure that might be needed for this joint facility. Clearly some of the requirements are going to be common between the two functions, so I’ll look at those first. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Firstly, for a marine park base, clearly the water supply which can be from wells in the fresh water lens and rainwater collection; sewerage disposal facilities; waste disposal facilities, and I’ll just point out there that already, the Pacific Marlin collects waste from these islands which are deposited there by the yachts… 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: …cold storage; fuel storage for diesel and petrol; and of course living quarters for staff and families and visiting scientists; and finally, a jetty for re-supply from vessels like the Pacific Marlin…

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: …from a power point of view, the use of something like solar PB and wind turbines to supply renewable energy; and a back-up diesel generator. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: From a communications aspect, there’s a possibility of something like a lattice tower which could be used for both radar and radio communications. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And from the point of view of patrol, fast dories and inflatable boats, together with a larger vessel such as is seen here in the top right-hand corner, for inter-island, inter-atoll patrols. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And finally, the possibility of a patrol aircraft, such as this Cessna Amphibian, which has a range of eight hundred and twenty nautical miles and a speed of a hundred and sixty-five knots, and which could also double as emergency medical transport.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: From the point of view of a scientific research station, what we have in mind is a small self-contained science laboratory which could either be ashore or barge-mounted in the lagoon, together with diving facilities and environmental monitoring equipment such as tide-gauges, weather stations and further sea surface temperature monitors. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Additionally, there might be considerations, if families were allowed there, for a school for children, the possibility of refurbishing the existing chapel, and of course, medical support facilities.

[Audience chatter]

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: What sort of staffing are we looking at for this facility?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Firstly, in terms of manpower numbers, we’re talking under a hundred, in the order of about fifty. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Naturally, we are looking at Chagossians to start this facility, who would either be from the United Kingdom, Mauritius and the Seychelles, and we know that the UK government is generally favourable about involving Chagossians in the future of the islands. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: In terms of visiting scientists, we know that the Pacific Marlin has a capacity of about ten to twelve, so it seems sensible that if it is to be used as a research vessel for the more distant parts of the Chagos, that we work on these sorts of figures. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And a small laboratory could have a capacity of supporting about three to four scientists. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Finally, we turn to the concept of finance. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: This is necessarily very sketchy because we don’t have the actual details of what we’re looking at, but clearly a marine park base is going to cost millions and, I would suggest, in double figures. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: The other components seen here can be costed and you see the values over there. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Running costs. The annual running costs, on the basis of about fifty people, we’re looking at about one point five million pounds, and for logistic support, a further one million.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: And with continuation training for replacement personnel, equipment replacement and maintenance and scientific support costs, the total is likely to rise into the order of about four and a half to five million a year. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Well that concludes what I have to say for this proposal. I point out that these are simply ideas, which are put forward for further discussion today, to ascertain what might or might not be realistic. Thank you very much. 

[Applause]

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Applause]

Rebecca Stott: Thank you very much for a very concrete, specific paper. I meant to say before and I apologise that I didn’t do so; it’s been suggested to me that we run these sessions together and that whilst there’s coffee and tea available now, that we continue to have the discussion that we need to have. So if anyone wants to go and get a quick coffee or tea, it is being served outside now, so please do that, but we will actually go straight into a discussion now and run straight into the next session….So if people have comments or questions for any of our speakers up here, please make your way to the microphones. 

[Audience chatter]

Audience member 23 (Xavier Siatous): The Chagossian people (inaudible)…because we sacrificed the (inaudible)….and the Chagossian Islands, the (inaudible) Islands is far from the security of the world. (inaudible). I’d like you to respect (inaudible), respect the law of the world because (inaudible)…stop the terrorism, give the world security and give the people the security. (inaudible). The first danger (inaudible)…The second danger (inaudible). The second danger is the (inaudible). The people like the security of the world. (inaudible) 

[Audience outcry and discussion]

Xavier Siatous: (inaudible). The second key of the world for the terrorism, yes? The people like the security of the world and give the people the security of the world, no one can die. Because if no danger for the people, they can (inaudible).

Rebecca Stott: Thank you, thank you. Sir. 

Audience member 24 (Solomon Prosper): My name is Salomon. Um, basically there’s quite a few things to say but to start with, what is the value of the marine park in terms of financial...What is the value?

Rebecca Stott: So...is this a question…?

Solomon Prosper: Yes, to Mr Dunne, is it?

Rebecca Stott: Yes, Mr Dunne, Richard Dunne. 

Solomon Prosper: (inaudible) the proper value…

Richard Dunne: So you're asking me what is the value of the Marine Protected Area?

Solomon Prosper: Yes, yes.

Laura Jeffery: Can you translate, Salomon, can you translate your question into Kreol as well?

Solomon Prosper: Okay. [Repeats question in Kreol].

Richard Dunne: Well, that’s a question I can’t actually answer here. I do know that we’ve got someone in the audience and I’m going to deflect it, if I may, to Mark Spalding. Can you in any way possibly help us there? What is the value of a Marine Protected Area? I take it you’re talking monetary terms?

Solomon Prosper: Yes.

Richard Dunne: How many million pounds…

Solomon Prosper: Yes, in terms of the value of…

Richard Dunne: It’s not my area of expertise, I’ll admit that. Can I ask Mark and Sue Wells, I see you there. Are you able to confer and give some indication?

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: I think I can say, Solomon, that it is very complex because you see, it depends on the size of the Marine Protected Area, it depends on the location, I think I’m right in saying. Do I get nods from Sue and Mark? There are a lot of factors which you can’t necessarily just place a value on, say, one kilometre squared of Marine Protected Area. 

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Richard Dunne: Do you want to let Sue Wells come to the microphone and she will give you an answer, hopefully.

Sue Wells: I just think it’s a very good question and one that needs to be considered in this. There is a lot of work that’s been done on this. I must apologise. I haven’t personally worked on this but I do know the papers. What I’d like to suggest is we get some figures because I think if we have, perhaps we could go and see the communities. As Richard has said, it’s very variable. It does depend very much on how you try to set up and manage the Marine Park and I think that needs to be considered in the future plan. What will be the value of the different grades at which it might be managed, involving, obviously, tourism, fisheries, all sorts of aspects come into it. The economic value of a marine park can be very, very high. So I apologise I can’t provide the figures today but we could make those available.

[Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

[Audience member poses question to Laura Jeffery in Kreol]

[Laura Jeffery seeks to clarify question]

Solomon Prosper: Um, sorry, I’ve got a question… 

Rebecca Stott: Do you have another question? Yes, please go ahead and then I will move…

Solomon Prosper: Yes, what is the current value of the reef wildlife? What is the current value of the reef wildlife? How much money…can you give an estimation of how much money the area, the value of the reef for the whole world?

Rebecca Stott (to Laura Jeffery): Can you translate the question?

Solomon Prosper: What is the value of the rainforest, your national forest? What is the value, the money value of the rainforest? The importance of it for the whole world, that’s the point.

[Laura Jeffery asks Solomon Prosper to repeat the question in Kreol]

Solomon Prosper: [Repeats question in Kreol]

Rebecca Stott: Mark, do you want to answer that question?

Mark Spalding: I can have a go. It’s extraordinarily complex and (inaudible). There’s a paper out by a guy called Stanton (inaudible)…it depends how many (inaudible) basic questions. As I said in my first talk today, reefs mean lots of things to lots of people. We don’t always have proper values for those numbers. But when we try to work it out, the numbers are impressive. We’re talking many trillions of dollars per year, we’re talking many trillions of dollars per year for the world’s coral reefs. Of course, that’s how much the investment value, and trying to get people to pay that money is much harder to do…so it’s quite a challenge to answer that question. But they are extremely valuable and we can give you more on that, as Sue said, in the follow up. 

Solomon Prosper: Yes, so this raises another question: so trillions of dollars every year…But what is the value of life itself? What is the value of our life itself? [Continues in Kreol].
	
Rebecca Stott: I understand the rhetoric of that question. It’s not one that can be answered, I don’t think, by anybody today. It's a very powerful question.

Solomon Prosper [Simultaneously]: You cannot measure the importance of (inaudible). It's the same thing as you cannot put a value in terms of (inaudible) the importance of the Barrier Reef or the marine park or the rainforest. So basically what we’re saying is we’ve (inaudible). We’ve been sacrificed once for the security of England and America, we are being sacrificed a second time now. For what? For the world. And (inaudible) this is what they're going to do now: use Chagos as a reference point for the world. (inaudible) your presentation (inaudible) earlier, Chagos, Diego Garcia, has got the highest points of fishery, fish cover, fish and reef biomass, and we (inaudible) which I guess is your centre of reference for the whole world. If the whole world is benefiting from the Chagos (inaudible). 

[Laura Jeffery asks Solomon Prosper to translate question into Kreol]

Solomon Prosper: I’ll translate it later, yeah.  If you try and use Chagos as a reference point for the whole world—

Richard Dunne: Can I answer that as best I can? Yes, it’s true. Chagos and the Chagossians have already been sacrificed to US military might and to the British government, in the past. All we can do now, today, because we know that the House of Lords - which is the highest court in this country - has said that what the British Government did again in 2004 was not illegal, not unlawful, all we can do actually today is to say ‘how can we get Chagossians back on those islands, back doing things which will benefit them and will benefit the islands?’ And that’s the only thing that we’re trying to do today. It is an enormous compromise. I can’t, no one here, can promise Chagossian resettlement, but we can actually work towards something which will be, hopefully useful for Chagossians. I’m sorry, you know, that's the best that can be done. 

Solomon Prosper: Okay, what I want to say…[Continues in Kreol]. So the point is, the question is, if like what you say, you… 

Rebecca Stott: Could you summarise this quite quickly now because I have other people who also need to be heard?

Solomon Prosper: Yes, they are the ones benefiting from our Chagos Islands. Why can’t the world pay the bill?

Richard Dunne: I quite agree. I would like to see the United States, to see them paying a very substantial sum of money for their use of the military facility on Diego Garcia. They pay absolutely nothing at the moment and have never paid anything. But this a political, you see, this is a political question which the FCO and the politicians have to answer. It is perfectly capable of re-negotiating the agreement, which comes up for renewal in 2016, with the Americans. Can we move on?

Solomon Prosper: That’s the first thing, that’s the first one. The Americans, they owe us a lot of money for the use of our place. The second thing is the world, the Indian Ocean itself, or United Nations should finance the Chagos people, if they plan to use our Diego Garcia or the Chagos Atoll, as a base, as one of the reference points for the rest of the world. So you’ve got your billions of money for the Chagos people every year.

Richard Dunne: I agree, I agree. 

Rebecca Stott: We have agreement here, but we have to move onto the next questioner because my job is to make sure everybody gets a chance to speak here. So I’m going to move across. Thank you for that.

[Applause]

Sabrina Jean: I’m Sabrina Jean, Chairperson of the Chagos Refugees Group in UK. My question for Richard today is: I can see you said you will recruit fifty workers to go and work on the marine park from the Chagossian people. That is a good idea, yeah. But I would like to know how they will pay us? By US dollars or by pounds? Because I have been on a visit recently on Diego Garcia. Our pound doesn’t work there. You need to use just US dollars. I would like to know, for me to work for two hundred US dollars, it’s not enough for me. Thank you….I will fight for my community, I will fight for my people, but make sure the British Government knows what they’re doing. Because for me, the British government is nothing. The US military…

[Cheering and applause]

Richard Dunne: That’s a very good point. Can you put that in Kreol for everybody else?

Sabrina Jean: Yes. [Repeats question in Kreol].

Sabrina Jean: I’m a second generation, born from a British parent. My father was born on Peros Banhos. [Continues in Kreol].

Richard Dunne: Can I answer that, possibly? This is a personal opinion: my opinion is that, as I said in my talk, the Foreign Office, the British government, needs to face up to the fact that it has to pay more for this Marine Protected Area. Part of that cost is to pay for marine research station staff and marine park staff. If those are Chagossians then clearly they must be paid and I think, personally, they need to be paid by the government. Whether or not conservation groups, the United Nations and the European Union can also find funds which can be made available for that, then so be it. But I think the main point of what I’m saying there is that this is under-funded. They’re not spending enough. We have a Marine Protected Area which the government are using to great (inaudible) effect worldwide, but they’re not fronting up to their responsibilities which are to pay you Chagossians to go back. 

Rebecca Stott: Thank you. We have a next question and do give us your name please.

Audience member 25 (Adeline Jaffar): [Asks question in Kreol]

Laura Jeffery: So Adeline is saying that she’s speaking in the name of the Chagossians and also their children and grandchildren. So she’s hearing that there are groups that would like to help the Chagossians. 

[Laura Jeffery addresses Adeline Jaffar in Kreol]

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol].

Laura Jeffery: That there’s an illness, a sickness that is not able to be cured.

[Audience laughter]

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol].

[Audience cheering and applause]

Laura Jeffery: So she’s saying if a mother and a father are together and create a child then it's their child. In other words, it’s their responsibility. 

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol].

[Loud cheering and applause]

Laura Jeffery: She’s talking about a glitch in the law whereby unmarried Chagossian parents, sometimes their children are unable to get UK passports. 

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol]

[Loud cheering and applause]

Laura Jeffery: So the problem is that for various reasons, most Chagossians are not married so often their children have trouble getting passports.

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol]

[Loud cheering and applause]

Laura Jeffery: She’s saying that it’s because Chagossians have black skin that the government wasn’t in agreement for giving everybody UK passports. 

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol]

[Loud cheering and applause]

Laura Jeffery: So she’s saying that Chagossians born on Chagos didn’t want to go to Mauritius, they didn’t want to go to the UK, they didn’t want to have their land sold. 

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol].

[Loud cheering and applause]

Laura Jeffery: So finally she’s saying that…

[Audience members shout comments in Kreol]

Laura Jeffery: …when people were exiled they were treated them like animals and moved, some of them to Mauritius and some of them to Seychelles, which is not what they wanted. 

[Laura Jeffery addresses Adeline Jaffar in Kreol] 

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol].

Rebecca Stott: Thank you. We need to move on. 

Adeline Jaffar: [Continues in Kreol].

[Cheering and applause]

Rebecca Stott: Thank you, thank you. Madam.

Laura Jeffery: She’s just saying that when Chagossian people go to Mauritius they don’t have to learn to Kreol but when Mauritian people are coming to the UK they are forced to learn English. 

Rebecca Stott: We’re going to take our next question now. If you could say your name.

Olivier Bancoult: My name is Olivier Bancoult. I am the leader of the Chagos Refugees Group in Mauritius. My question is about all the fees that I’ve been seeing about the plan for the Marine Protected Area. But what is ridiculous, you say that for more than twenty-five years, the British Government has held money as fishing licences. During that time we have never seen that, this time we will not either. And when England implements the Marine Protected Area, he don’t have any money. He have to beg to have money. To raise this issue. 

Sabrina Jean: It’s ridiculous!

Olivier Bancoult: It’s something that makes British (inaudible), maybe the British government, ashamed. It’s a shame for British government. How not to respect the fundamental rights of the Chagossians, who have been (inaudible). How much thinking only about chartering Pacific Marlin? What about the Chagossians? What British government are doing for Chagossians who is still living in huge poverty? This is the main problem that I think we need to be...Before we embrace any Marine Protected Area, we should be consulted. It should not be like in the past, decisions have been taken on our heads (inaudible). We will not, we will never accept this kind of (inaudible).

[Applause]

Richard Dunne: Before we translate into Kreol, can I just ask a very quick question? Am I right in saying that you’re saying ‘why are the fishing licences, why have they been ended for Mauritian and Chagossian fishermen?’ Is that part of the question?

Olivier Bancoult: No. 

Richard Dunne: Oh sorry. 

Olivier Bancoult: All the revenues… 

Richard Dunne: All the revenues, yeah.

Olivier Bancoult: Is it included, the mooring fees, or are we only talking about only the fishing licences? Is it only included that mooring fees, which every yacht in Peros Banhos have got, is it paid to the government? We want to know about that.

[Laura Jeffery addresses Olivier Bancoult in Kreol]

Olivier Bancoult: [Repeats question in Kreol].

Rebecca Stott: Thank you very much for that. It’s a very important contribution and it’s appreciated and understood. Thank you. 

[Applause]

Richard Dunne: Can I just…I’m going to ask Olivier and I’m going to ask Laura to translate all of that so I get a very clear picture. Can I talk to you afterwards, or do you want me to address the floor? Afterwards? I’d be delighted to do that. I’ll get Laura to tell me exactly what you said. Thank you very much. 

Philippa Gregory: In order for us to hear from the lawyers who are representing you at the European Court of Human Rights, and the Mauritian lawyer who is representing the government of Mauritius against the UK, I think we have to hear from them now. Would those people who are waiting to ask a question come up again at the open debate, and make a contribution then?

Audience member 26 (Hengride Permal): Excuse me, I just want to…My name is Hengride Permal from the Chagos Island Community Association. We are coming, we are here all the way from Crawley. What I just want to say is you can see the frustration in this room today. It’s because we the Chagossian people, we are feeling that we are going round like on a carousel shall we say, and we fall into the same place every time. So the Chagossian people, they are getting very tired of this. That’s why they are very frustrated today. It’s like we have been having people doing a feasibility study for us, for our return, in the past. And then what’s happened? We fall on our feet again. We are still at the same place today and we are in 2011. 

So it’s just a comment I want to say because…don’t take it personally. I know you people here, you are trying to help us to see how you can…to help us to get what we want and to get our island back, but it is very tiring. It has been more than forty-two years and lots of native people, they are dying. And you know, they are talking about again, what…if we can put...some buildings on the Salomon Islands and Peros Banhos and I have been to Diego Garcia last month, I mean in March, and with some of my colleagues and we have seen also on the two outer islands, Salomon and Peros Banhos, the weather you know is changing, like the climate, like you talk about. Like the water is raising. So this is also a big issue for us. But the main island, Diego Garcia, which is, we can see that people are living there, the military base is there, and people are working. They have everything like in any other island. So this is where I think the people, the Chagossian people should go if they want to go somewhere and live, because people are living there. Like, they have showed, you guys have showed us earlier, that there are people living on the base area and they don’t have any problem with that. And also the Chagossian people, they are tired because nobody is hearing what they want to…what they want, you know…what they want to come out of this problem that we are facing. Especially the compensation. Like, so many countries where they have been victims in different ways, today they have been compensated. And the Chagossian people has never been compensated the way they should have been, and this is an injustice. So that’s why the Chagossian people they are so angry about all these things. They want to see something done, and they want like you know, they want to see action. There has been talking, talking, talking and we’re tired of talking.

[Cheering and applause]

Hengride Permal: We want action on the ground, you know…That’s why we are so frustrated today. You know, because it’s time, you know. It’s time to say enough is enough. We want to see some action. Thank you. 

[Loud cheering and applause]

Richard Dunne: Thank you very much. I think there are a lot of people here today who agree with everything you say. The only question I ask here is are you supportive – is the Chagossian community supportive – of the idea that you can go back to the islands with a marine park base and to work on those islands? We ask for support from you for that concept. Until, of course, you can be resettled on those islands. I’m going to have to end now. 

[Audience chatter]

Rebecca Stott: We need to finish this session now and Philippa will take over, but I just wanted to say, personally, thank you very much for that last contribution, and to the speakers. 

Session 4: Legal position
Chair: Philippa Gregory
Lead Speakers: Philippe Sands & Richard Gifford

Philippa Gregory: I’d like to thank the panel for their contribution and now I’d like to call upon the Mauritian lawyer, Philippe Sands, and the UK lawyer, Richard Gifford.  

 [Laura Jeffery translates into Kreol]

Philippa Gregory: First of all Philippe Sands...This is Philippe Sands. He will talk to you about the legal case for Mauritius.

Philippe Sands: Bonjour messieurs-dames. Hello ladies and gentlemen. My name is Philippe Sands. I’m a Professor of Law at the University of London, I’m a barrister-advocate in Chambers, and I am counsel for Mauritius. I listened very carefully to what the lady just said about action. The government of Mauritius is taking action. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The government of Mauritius is supporting a full right of return of all Chagossians. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: And it is partly for that reason that last December, the government of Mauritius stated legal proceedings against the United Kingdom at a United Nations Tribunal. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Let me explain what the case is about and what is happening. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The history of the dispute is set out in a notification of the twentieth of December 2010. We are distributing it. You will all now have copies. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The case attacks as manifestly illegal the Marine Protected Area purportedly established by the United Kingdom. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: And I must say, I listened with great interest this morning to Mr Marsden and thought that I may have been watching a Monty Python sketch, taken back to the 1930s as a gentleman explains what the people of Chagos can and cannot do. That is not right. 

[Minor applause]

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Audience outcry]

Philippe Sands: The objective of the case is to obtain a declaration from the United Nations Tribunal that the United Kingdom is and has acted illegally. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: For three reasons. First, the Marine Protected Area adopts prohibitions that are unlawful under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: There are illegal for many reasons, but one of the reasons is the Marine Protected Area prohibits the right of return of Chagossians, to do what they want on the island. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Secondly, the Marine Protected Area is illegal because the United Kingdom is not a coastal state under the 1982 Convention. It has no right to declare a Marine Protected Area. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The case dates back to 1965 when, as many of you in this room know, the United Kingdom dismembered the territory of Mauritius. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: It did so in breach of international law, as the 1965 United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2066 made clear. Dismemberment is illegal. The British Indian Ocean Territory is illegal. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Between 1968 and 1973 the United Kingdom forcibly removed the entire population of the Chagos Archipelago. Its actions were illegal. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Every Chagossian has a right of return under international law, period.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The real problem with the Marine Protected Area is that it is intended to support an unlawful United Kingdom claim to sovereignty, and to prevent your right of return.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Mauritius supports the objectives of genuine efforts at conservation, not this sham. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The real purpose of this Marine Protected Area, as you heard this morning from a number of speakers, is not conservation. It is about maintaining British sovereignty over the area and preventing your right of return. 

Allen Vincatassin: Sovereignty of what?

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: As Mr Colin Roberts put it, and I quote, ‘establishing a marine park would, in effect, put paid to resettlement claims of the Archipelago’s former residents’. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The so-called consultation that was carried out by the British government, was a sham, and it did not meet international standards. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The decision was a fait accompli. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Mr Gordon Brown, made an undertaking to the Prime Minister of Mauritius, that the Marine Protected Area would not go ahead. That undertaking was broken. This is why the case was brought.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The sovereignty of Mauritius over the islands is reflected in the Constitution of Mauritius. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: It is also supported by the majority of countries around the world. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Most recently, the Assembly of the African Union adopted Resolution Number One in January, just a few months ago. You can see the Resolution on the screen and we are distributing copies. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: You will note that every country in Africa, without exception, recognises the Chagos Archipelago as an integral part of the territory of Mauritius. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Every African country has expressed grave concern about the Marine Protected Area. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Every African country has expressed the view that the Marine Protected Area is inconsistent with international law. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: And every single country in Africa and the Maldives decided to support fully the action of the government of Mauritius at the United Nations General Assembly, with a view to enabling Mauritius to exercise its sovereignty over the archipelago. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: There is a related matter that I’m bound to address. The United Kingdom is not acting alone. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The government of Mauritius has noted that a number of non-government organisations (NGOs) are providing high-end support to the British government in its patently illegal Marine Protected Area.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: In legal terms, this is known as ‘aiding and abetting an illegal act’.

[Audience murmur and laughter. A few audience members clap]

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: One organisation is at the epicentre of this project and it’s the Pew Charitable Trust. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: I regret deeply having to say that because I have, for many years, worked closely with Pew Charitable Trust. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Audience member shouts comment (inaudible)]

Philippe Sands: The government of Mauritius has sought to engage with Pew. Those efforts have been rebuffed. You can see on the screen - and I am authorised by the Prime Minister to distribute to you today - an exchange of letters between the government of Mauritius and the Pew Charitable Trust. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The government of Mauritius wrote to the President of Pew, this Rebecca Rimel, noting amongst other things…

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: …that the Trust, and I quote, ‘has chosen to put the interests of purported conservation above the rights of Mauritius and the fundamental human rights of forcibly displaced persons’.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The government of Mauritius also expressed deep regret that the Trusts, that the Pew Trust, appeared to have chosen to lend its support to the last vestige of colonialism in the Indian Ocean. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Mauritius invited the President of the Pew Charitable Trust to meet to discuss these matters, and you can see on the screen now what her reply was. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: ‘I do not feel our involvement is appropriate and therefore respectively decline your offer of a meeting’.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: In twenty-five years of acting for governments in international disputes, I’ve never seen such a letter before. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: It is readily apparent that Pew has not recognised the gravity of the situation into which it is now stumbling. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Let us be clear: Pew is involved in this dispute over sovereignty and the right of return.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Pew has taken sides and Pew is directly undermining the right of return of any person who wants to go back. 

[Audience member shouts comment (inaudible)]

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Other organisations that are supporting this Marine Protected Area are similarly lending their support to patently unlawful action. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: This is now becoming a major international dispute which will be heard on the floors of the United Nations and every other specialised agency that deals with these issues.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: In conclusion, the arbitral Tribunal has now been constituted and it will proceed to hear the case. The case will last some time.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: On the subject of action, two things need to happen immediately. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: First, the right of all Chagossians must be seen as paramount. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: They should be entitled to exercise their right of return in accordance with international law with immediate effect.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: The interests of conservation do not and cannot trump these fundamental human rights in this way. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: And second, all work on the Marine Protected Area should be suspended with immediate effect and every organisation should cease and desist from providing any support to the United Kingdom in its promotion. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Let us not forget that the Tribunal has the power to award interim relief to protect the rights of Mauritius and of those who are entitled to return. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Let me conclude in a personal capacity, not speaking on behalf of the government of Mauritius. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Let us call a spade a spade. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: As someone said to me the other day, when it looks like a racist and colonial policy, it probably is a racist and colonial policy. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippe Sands: Thank you very much.

[Applause and booing]

Philippa Gregory: Philippe Sands, thank you very much. Now we’re going to hear from Richard Gifford, who is representing the Chagos people at the European Court of Human Rights.

Richard Gifford: Well, good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Richard Gifford. I’m the solicitor for the Chagos Refugees Group in Mauritius and the Chagos Social Committee in the Seychelles. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Both of these groups now have branches in the United Kingdom, I’m pleased to say as a result of the one gain that we have made for Chagossians in the last ten years, namely British passports. 

[Minor applause. Audience members shout comments (inaudible)]

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Applause. Audience members shout comments (inaudible)]

Richard Gifford: It remains an outrage that neither group has a branch in the Chagos Islands. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: When in 1997, Olivier Bancoult, Robin Mardemootoo and I decided to challenge the deracinement, we found an extremely difficult legal position. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: In those days….

[Audience members shout comments indicating disagreement (inaudible)]

Richard Gifford: …in those days you could count on the fingers of one hand, in all probably, those people in England who knew about the deracinement of the Chagossian population.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: I assume from that account of the gentlemen from the Foreign Commonwealth Office - they were saying nothing… 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: and I assume from their accounts that the ladies and gentlemen of what was then called The Friends of Chagos…

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Audience members shout comments in Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Chagos had remained a secret garden for scientists and retired officials for the last thirty years. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: The situation is very different today. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Audience members shout comments in Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Over the twelve years that the Chagossian population have had to take their case to the English courts... 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: …the British public and world opinion has been progressively sensitised to the outrage which they have suffered. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: I congratulate Philippa and Ben and Roch in bringing together the different factions who now have a passionate interest in the future of this people and these islands. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Minor applause]

Richard Gifford: During this exile and decade of litigation…

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: …no less than twelve English judges have ruled upon the Chagossian right of return. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Nine out of the twelve judges have considered the Islanders to have been illegally removed. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Unfortunately, the grounds on which they held it to be so has been many and varied.  

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: ‘Beyond the powers of good governance’, said two judges in November 2000.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: ‘Irrational’, said two further judges in May 2006.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Finally, ‘an abuse of power’.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: But, by the litigation system we have…

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: …three judges in the House of Lords can outvote nine of their brethren.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Do we wonder why the Chagossian people have a sense of outrage and an impassioned desire to return and to seek compensation?

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Audience murmur]

Richard Gifford: In 2004, the government took further measures against the Chagossian population. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: After banning the right of abode in 2010, a Marine Protected Area was declared.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: The case of the Chagos Islanders is now pending before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Not just the treatment by the government but the treatment by the courts is for Strasbourg to consider.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Article 3 protects the right to private and family life.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: In another case, Durgan v. Turkey, the European Court has held…

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: …that a government that expels villagers must allow them to return.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: And most importantly, must adopt measures to facilitate that return.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Under other international law instruments…

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: …the forced relocation of people is a crime against humanity.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Audience murmur]

Richard Gifford: We say that is the fate of the Chagossian people and the British government is responsible. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: The European Court has the power to order the return of the population and to award compensation to the people concerned. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: We hope for a decision later this year. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: I look forward to meeting all of you again when a victory has been achieved

[Audience murmur]

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Richard Gifford: Thank you. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

[Applause]

Session 5: Agreeing the Way Forward
Open Debate
Chair: Philippa Gregory

Philippa Gregory: Okay ladies and gentlemen, we’re now going to go to the open debate. The floor is yours. If you want to ask the lawyers questions, that’s possible too. You’ve been very patient, thank you. 

Allen Vincatassin: The very first thing is that the representative here for Mauritius, [Repeats in Kreol]. I want to give this message [Repeats in Kreol]: we the Chagossians [Repeats in Kreol], we do not support sovereignty of Mauritius over our homeland [Repeats in Kreol].

[Loud applause]

Allen Vincatassin: [Speaks in Kreol]. I am here to defend the cause of the Chagossian people because we have the right of self-determination. It belongs to the people, not to the state of Mauritius [Repeats in Kreol].

[Loud applause]

Allen Vincatassin: And we have established a provisional government-in-waiting…[Repeats in Kreol].

[Audience members shout objections: no, no, no]

Allen Vincatassin: The mandate of the government-in-waiting [Repeats in Kreol] is for Chagossians to be able to go back and to govern their own homeland… 

[Applause and audience members shout objections in Kreol]

Allen Vincatassin: [Continues in Kreol]. Our door is open [Repeats in Kreol] and we can go to everybody…[Repeats in Kreol]…and we want…

[Audience shouting/discussion]

Philippa Gregory: Okay, can we let the speaker finish?

[Audience shouting/discussion continues]

Philippa Gregory: Ladies and gentlemen, I want to hear the voice of the Chagos people. I cannot hear your voices because you’re all speaking at once. Mr Vincatassin, one minute and that’s it, because I want to hear everyone, okay? 

Allen Vincatassin: Yeah. 

[Audience shouting/discussion continues]

Philippa Gregory: You have one minute.

Allen Vincatassin: I believe that I am prepared for an open debate for another occasion [Repeats in Kreol].

[Audience shouting/discussion continues]

[Some audience members reply: ‘Okay’, ‘okay, that’s good’]. 

Allen Vincatassin: My message this afternoon is: our door is open, we want to get people on board. Any groups that want to help. It’s for the interest of all Chagossians [Repeats in Kreol]. My main enemy here, I will say enemy [Repeats in Kreol] is not the Chagossians, is not the leaders of the groups [Repeats in Kreol]. My enemy here is the government of Mauritius. 

 [Loud cheering and applause]

Philippa Gregory: Thank you very much for your contribution. 

[Cheering and applause continues]

Allen Vincatassin: [Speaks in Kreol] I have opened the door for any person who wants to work, we can come on board together, we can work, because it’s for Chagossians. 

[Loud cheering and applause]

[Audience discussion] 

Philippa Gregory: Okay, I have to remind you that we have to leave this building at half past four. Should we not hear from somebody else? Should we not hear from somebody else?

[Audience discussion continues]

Allen Vincatassin: [Speaks in Kreol].

[Audience discussion continues]

Philippa Gregory: Thank you. 

Allen Vincatassin: [Speaks in Kreol].

Philippa Gregory: Thank you very much. Thank you.

[Cheering and applause]

[Audience discussion]

Philippa Gregory: Okay, silence for the next speaker please. This lady here. What's your name?

[Hushing]

Audience member 27 (unidentified): I’m (inaudible) from the (inaudible). 

[Audience discussion continues. Hushing]

Audience member 27: ...I was going to (inaudible) quite similar to that I guess (inaudible)…It's wonderful to see everybody here working together to find out how and ways that Chagossians could be involved in the area, and not just involved but manage and (inaudible) and right the wrongs of (inaudible). But I would really like also to ask a question about the marine reserve. And I would like more clarity from Mr Sands as to why the marine reserve should be finished now despite the judgement on the court cases. Surely it would make more sense to protect the area and end the exploitation that’s been happening, that’s been happening there while Chagossians have had no (inaudible), while they haven’t been there. Why should it be fished by foreign vessels, whether UK, Mauritian, Spanish or French?

[Minor applause]

Philippa Gregory: Thank you. Would you like to answer that?

Philippe Sands: I can say very quickly that there’s no evidence at all that the fishing activity that has taken place over the last ten or twenty years has caused any difficultly at all. It was evidence from what we heard this morning. You have a situation in which one state has declared a Marine Protected Area, in which another state objects to that. Each will go to the Tribunal. If the United Kingdom wants to continue to engage in its Marine Protected Area, it can do so but in the full knowledge that it is now acting illegally and it will be responsible for the consequence. In the meantime, what is surprising is that NGOs somehow seem willing to be able to associate themselves with the position of the United Kingdom, because that is the argument we will take to the Tribunal. So I don’t think that your argument is grounded in scientific evidence and I don’t think it’s grounded in political strategy.

Philippa Gregory: Okay. Thank you. Sir. 

Audience member 28 (Selmour Cheri): [Speaks in Kreol].

[Applause]

Robin Mardemootoo: What the gentleman has said was the reason they are here today is because of the government of Mauritius. If the government of Mauritius had considered the interests of the Chagossian people, they would not have been here today. 

[Minor applause]

Selmour Cheri: [Continues in Kreol].

[Cheering and applause]

Robin Mardemootoo: The gentleman is saying that he saw people arriving on the docks of Mauritius in the late 1960s and they had nowhere to go. People slept everywhere and the government of Mauritius did nothing at that time. And today the government of Mauritius is claiming sovereignty. He wants to know where was the government of Mauritius when the Chagossians arrived in Mauritius. 

Selmour Cheri: [Continues in Kreol].

[Applause]

Selmour Cheri: [Continues in Kreol].

[Cheering and applause]

Selmour Cheri: [Continues in Kreol].

[Cheering and applause]

Philippa Gregory: Thank you, thank you. I’m so sorry. I have to thank you for your contribution. We have ten minutes and then we have to stop. Can we hear from someone else? Can we hear from you Roch?

[Audience discussion]

Roch Evenor: My point is that…(inaudible)

[Selmour Cheri continues speaking in Kreol]

 [Audience member shouts 'Translate this please']

 [Applause. Audience discussion continues]

Roch Evenor: Umm, Mr Cheri has, I mean, said that there’s a case that Mauritius has put, I mean the National Court of, I mean (inaudible), umm, what happen if the Mauritians is successful? Will the Mauritians give the Chagossians a chance for referendum to see which, umm...this is coming from all Chagossians saying that we should have the chance of having a referendum to see which government we want to support…[Continues in Kreol]…And I’ve got another question as well. This is for Richard. Richard, what will happen if we win the case at the European Court of Human Rights? Can the, I mean, can the British government, they can appeal so that…[Continues in Kreol].

Richard Gifford: What will happen if the Chagossians win their case and the government decides to appeal? Well there’s a very limited form of appeal in the European Court, to the grand chamber, but one mustn’t anticipate that. We have to look at the judgements first and see what they say. If the government is ordered to allow and facilitate the return of the Chagossians, it can be enforced through the Council of Ministers. We have known the government wants to, in some cases, disregard the judgements of the European Court. But I think that they would be extremely unlikely to do this and the signs are, probably, that they won’t. So let’s hope that they will succeed.

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Hengride Permal: Look, I just want to say something. We have been standing here for a while now. My question is to Mr Gifford. Earlier you mentioned now you have, the Chagossian people have got British passports, but something you don’t know is that the Chagossian people with this British passports have been divided… 

[Cheering and applause]

Hengride Permal: …some of us, even if they are from partners or they are from one parent, they don’t get the British passport. Your British passport, we are saying we have got so many people are suffering with that. They are being divided, some of their children are still in Mauritius, and some are here, some are still somewhere else. So I don’t know whether you were negotiating the passport for us? Did you have a clause where they have put all the conditions of the passport, because you were our service leader at that time. So, because, today, because of your mistake, we are being suffering and being divided.

[Cheering and applause]

Hengride Permal: …And also, I would like to say we are talking about the Pew, now is with the British government. So they have also asked for the Mauritian government before to be on their side. So what we see now, the Chagossians, they are like guinea pigs, we should say, you know. We are played, being played both with British government and Mauritian government. So they don’t care about the Chagossian people, what they care is about their business, their politics. It’s not that issue of racism I can see; it’s political. It’s where I can get advantage from one country to another. They don’t care about the human beings. It’s the human beings, the Chagossians, that they have to care. Everybody, every, all governments are looking for their own advantages, which is not right for the Chagossians. So it’s about time now, Chagossian people have to have their say in what they want. Enough is enough with these governments!

[Cheering and applause]
 
Richard Gifford: Well if that’s a question to me, Hengride, I’m very happy to answer it. I—

Hengride Permal: I’ve been contacting you before for so many times, I never get any…you told me that you will send me the clause of what has been happening in the court. When we contacted your office, until today we have been waiting, and I’m not the only group that have done that. Different groups in the UK have contacted your office. We never have got any closer and today our children are suffering, our families are being divided.

[Loud cheering and applause]

Richard Gifford: I think I can tell you that—

Hengride Permal: You are not in our shoes. Don’t say it’s unfair…You are not in our… (inaudible) Richard, he’s our lawyer. How much money have you make from the legal aid, Richard? How much money have you made on top of the Chagossians' head?

[Cheering and applause, chanting]

Allen Vincatassin: Okay, I’m talking. I agree with what my friend has just said, and even now Richard has not told us the truth. Right now.

[Screams and applause]

Allen Vincatassin: (inaudible) On one thing [Repeats in Kreol]...which we know [Repeats in Kreol].

[Audience members shouts comments in Kreol]

Richard Gifford: What is that Allen?

Allen Vincatassin: Yeah, I’m going to tell you. Because this is the most important thing that you missed in your presentation. [Repeats in Kreol]. Right. First thing we heard…[Continues in Kreol]…

[Audience member makes comment in Kreol]

Allen Vincatassin: …and there is one thing. Are we not waiting for a case, and I don’t know this hundred percent [Continues in Kreol], are we not waiting for a case about Iraq, so that our case will then take…?

Richard Gifford: Yes, yes of course we are. What happened was that after we'd exchanged the pleadings...

Allen Vincatassin: Yeah, now you’re talking!

Richard Gifford: …at the beginning of last year… at the beginning of last year…

Allen Vincatassin: [Simultaneously speaks in Kreol].

Richard Gifford: the President of the Court ruled that they would consider the case of the Chagos Islanders against the United Kingdom before the summer, last year. When they did do that, they decided that they would wait until another decision had been given in what’s called Al-Skeini, which is the Iraqi civilian deaths case. That case was argued in June and we’re still waiting for a decision in that case. So, unfortunately the case of the Chagos Islanders and the UK has been simply delayed yet further. I’m extremely sorry. I’m very frustrated and I write lots of letters to the Court and I get very unhelpful answers. 

[Audience members make comments in Kreol]

Audience member 33: Richard, I have a question for you, alright. How long we have to take permission with the British Government to visit our homeland? Always when we want to visit, we have to get the permission. Is it the homeland? Is it for the British Government or for the Chagossian people?

Richard Gifford: We have always claimed the Chagos Islands to be the homeland of the Chagos people. We say they are indigenous people and have all the rights to live on the territory and exploit the resources of the territory. There is for example an International Covenant on the Rights of Indigenous People, which entitles them to a fair share of the resources of their homeland. We’ve never ceased to hold that position and to assert it whenever we can. 

Philippa Gregory: Yes.

Audience member 29 (Alistair Gammell): Um, Alistair Gammell from Pew Environment Group and I just wanted to regret the remarks of Philippe Sands concerning Pew at this meeting, particularly since we and everybody else came here in a constructive spirit. Notwithstanding anything he’s said, I stand by the reply of my colleague Rebecca Rimel. As an NGO, we have no standing at the United Nations. We have no standing in the dispute between the United Kingdom and Mauritius. And therefore, as she said, I think our involvement in that matter would indeed be inappropriate. Thank you.

 [Minor applause]

Philippa Gregory: Jeremy Corbyn. 

[Minor applause]

Jeremy Corbyn: Thank you, thank you very much Philippa. Jeremy Corbyn MP, Chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on the Chagos Islands. And first of all I want to say congratulations to you Philippa, Ben and Roch for organising today’s conference, and for everyone that’s attended it, because just having the conference and having the discussion is a very important part of the whole issue, of the whole campaign. And I think the point that Richard made, that up until the court case of 2000, the number of people in Britain who were seriously interested in Chagos Islands was very small. The number of people in the parliament was very small indeed. And when Tam Dalyell stepped down from Parliament, we lost somebody who was a great supporter of the Chagos Islanders, and I think we should all thank Tam for all the work he did for many years in supporting the right of return to the islands. When the British government made its utterly cynical decisions in the 1960s and 1970s to depopulate the islands, they probably thought that was a minor problem that would resolve and it would never bother them ever again. And I think it is a tribute to the steadfastness of all of the Chagossian people that over all these years, they’ve never given up, they’ve managed a campaign, they’ve managed a demand. And the victory of the courts – the High Court in 2000 – was absolutely crucial and as a result of that campaign. The following year, the British government, the then-government, introduced the Overseas Territories Bill, which after a lot of lobbying, a lot of work, we managed to get inserted into that Bill the right of all those people from the islands, to have access to British passports. There was a mistake in the drafting of that. The mistake was drawn to the attention of the Foreign Office by Richard, by Robin Mardemootoo, by myself and a number of others. There was an error at that time which we are still living with the consequences of. And I think it is - that’s why I took issue with one of the previous speakers - it is not the fault of Richard Gifford the way in which that legislation was drafted. He, along with myself and many others, did our best to get that legislation properly drafted. 

[Audience member asks question (inaudible)]

Jeremy Corbyn: Sorry?

Audience member 30 (unidentified): Are you (inaudible)?

Jeremy Corbyn: Well, we will continue, obviously, to try to change it. I do understand what the issue is. Now, the next thing I just want to say very briefly. The All Party Parliamentary Group was formed to try to support the case of the right of return. The Orders in Council that were made May 2004 were utterly wrong and utterly disgusting. They were Orders in Council, were a way of bi-passing council debate. The two Orders in Council on Constitution and Immigration were a way of bi-passing parliamentary procedures. That is why we’ve now ended up with a situation where we’re going to the European Court of Human Rights and I hope and expect we’re going to get success there and we will then be in a position to force the British Government to enable the right of return, because it will effectively be overturning those two Orders. The declaration of the Marine Protection Area in 2010 was done with some degree of fanfare. I was extremely concerned about it, not because I’m opposed to marine protection; quite the opposite. I’m absolutely in favour of protecting the pristine environment, recognising the unique nature of that environment, but I would also say that the right of return is not the opposite of protection of that environment. I think the two things go together. The people best able to protect the environment of the islands and the archipelago altogether are those that live there, love it and want to preserve it in that way. And so I think the two things actually go together and I have to say that that is the view of the All Party Parliamentary Group. We’ve expressed that view, both to the (inaudible) of international government and to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The issues now are to campaign to get a good decision at the European Court of Human Rights; to reverse the 2004 Orders in Council which I’ve already mentioned; and a study into the practicality of resettlement and the numbers of people wishing to resettle and how it would be done, and involving Chagossians in conservation and marine protection work, because that seems to me part of what the issue of what this conference is about. An historical wrong was made by a combination of the British and the US governments, over the base at Diego Garcia, the depopulation of the islands, and the disgraceful treatment of the Islanders ever since. And I’ve been involved in numerous meetings and conferences, including representations to the UN Human Rights Council – or Human Rights Commission as it was then called – on this issue. And our group will continue to campaign on this issue in the parliament, continue to put that pressure on, and that pressure is important and necessary. We do need to get this historical wrong corrected, recognise the need for strength and support and unity in this, and also just knock on the head the idea that conservation is the opposite of the Islanders actually being allowed to live there. The two things, I believe, can go hand in hand, and will, I believe, go hand in hand, because if we don’t right this injustice, the campaign will go on, the grievance will go on, and from the British government’s point of view, it won’t go away, not least because we won’t let it go away. Thank you very much. 

[Applause]

Philippa Gregory: Ladies and gentlemen, it has been a mixed pleasure working with you this afternoon. Will you translate? Would you translate?

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippa Gregory: It has been fun and it has been noisy. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippa Gregory: But the main thing is that the people who want to see the Chagos Reef preserved and the Chagos people returned to Chagos, have come together. 

[Robin Mardemootoo translates into Kreol]

Philippa Gregory: And so to say goodbye to everyone, I’d like to welcome your patron Ben Fogle and the choir of Ifield Community College. Thank you. 

Closing Address
Ben Fogle
Olivier Bancoult
Ifield Community College Choir

Ben Fogle: Wow, what else can I say, really? I was going to ramp this up but given what we’ve just had, I thought we’d leave on a slightly lighter note and I’d like to say a very Happy sixty-sixth Birthday – birthday, I can’t even talk now – to Annecy. Would Annecy like to come up here to collect her birthday cake?

[Applause]

[Audience sings ‘Happy Birthday’ to Annecy]

Ben Fogle: Before I give a kind of final address, I’d like to invite Olivier Bancoult up to address everyone for five minutes or so. Olivier. 

[Applause]

Olivier Bancoult: Chagos around the globe, members of the Managing Committee, Mr Ben Fogle and Mrs Philippa Gregory, ladies and gentlemen, and [uses Kreol term] Chagossians. It is great honour to be among you today. Once upon a time there lived two thousand five hundred inhabitants on my homeland, the Chagos Archipelago. We were happy and living in harmony with nature. My mother, who is now eighty-five years old, and more often than not she will remember how those days when we once had a place called home. At least I am fortunate enough to have a mother who is able to answer my question, whereas when my son asked me one day ‘Dad, when will we return home?’ and I could not answer, but I could say was ‘One day we will’. 

[Minor applause]

Olivier Bancoult: Today I am delighted (inaudible) that so many well-known scientific ecologists, scholars and yet I am just simple man simply seeking, asking to go home. Joseph Brodsky, a well-known jurist once said, ‘no matter under what circumstance you leave it, home does not cease to be home. No matter how you leave there - well or poorly’. Since 1983 the Chagos Refugees Group have been fighting our right to return to our own homeland. In our community we present here two ladies who have, just have, one hundred and one hundred years respectively. They may be old yet their eyes shine intensely at the mention of their return to their homeland. They have faith, they have belief, and more importantly, despite (inaudible), the trials of justice will be done. Most of you present will look into the issue from different place, whether political, scientific, scholar or legal…as Chagossians, the Chagos Archipelago represents our identity, our culture, our heritage, language and base of actually place. Everywhere we hear that natural marine resources must be protected and preserved (inaudible). I reason, I ask myself: who will protect the Chagossians from destruction? We want to know: who will protect the rights of Chagossians? 

Our poli- poli- population have estimated (inaudible) and recently from our total population have only about seven hundred and eighty natives. We the Chagossians ask for the protection and preservation of the environment. We understand and appreciate the fact that we must do our utmost to protect our environment but we refuse to accept the exception that protection must be at our expense. The Chagossian people have always lived, worked and protected the Chagos Islands. 

The relationship between Chagossians and our environment is one of mutual respect. We will be happy to train as scientific conservationists. In 2000, I was invited— in 2008 I was invited to give a royal address in the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs. I testified that the Chagossians are the true guardians of the environment. Nobody can love Chagos more than Chagossians. Nobody knows the land better than Chagossians. Ladies and gentlemen, we communicate with nature. We do not seek to control it. We understand it. We nurture it. And more importantly, we keep it free. We allow nature to breath the liberty of freedom. 

The fact is that we the Chagossians not launch legal...if not launch a legal proceeding in 1977, the fight of the Chagossians would now remain  obscure. At time we have been deported (inaudible) the installation of the US military base and others prevented from returning due to a sudden interest in the protection of the environment. We regret the fact that our fundamental rights are not being recognised. We have always acted in good faith. History attests to the fact that we are constantly being victims of sheer manipulations. In May 2007, the Master of Rolls just recently described the right of return to one’s homeland as the most fundamental liberties known to man.

We are all aware that BIOT has created the area as a Marine Protected Area. It is incurring upon a state to conduct consultation with the relevant stakeholders. Failure to carry out the consultation process renders the MPA (inaudible). We have established international law. Indeed, on the fourth of March, I repeat on the fourth of March 2010, a meeting was held with the ex-Euro facilitator and I expressed my concern that the designation of the area as a Marine Protected Area (inaudible) legitimate interests of the Chagossians. Yet on the first (inaudible) when the MPA was enacted, a blanket prohibition on fishing was (inaudible) declared. Ladies and gentleman, an absolute ban on fishing was taken despite the facts according to an official finding in what country that fisheries development appeared to have the best potential to support a settled population. And the most promising enterprise will involve adapting the current onshore fishing so that partly island based. Self-enabled fishing is the key to our living and yet again (inaudible) are creating many obstacles to prevent us from exercising our traditional fishing rights. This state of affairs appears dubious to more so in the light of facts that the UK have been issuing fishing licences for more for the past twenty five years. The conclusion of the primary marine study is that the resettlement of one or both atolls is physically possible, but only if a number conditions are met. These include confirmation that a safe, available and affordable water source can be given, the nature and scale of settlement will not damage the environment, public moneys available to finance prefecture and basic services, and one more, private investors are willing to develop viable enterprise which can generate sufficient income to pay the investment of the current cost of settlement. 

Consultation doesn’t merely mean being given an opportunity to voice our thoughts. The concept of free, prior and informed consent, which is the very raison d'etre of a consultation process, (inaudible) that any decision must be taken on consent. Therefore (inaudible) and completely bypass our suggestions. Our consent (inaudible). While again I believe it is important to emphasise that the Chagossians are not against the MPA itself but we are against the preservation and protection…we are not against the preservation or protection of the environment but we believe that environmental protection and human rights are mutually exclusive. 

It was stated that the Chagos Archipelago will treat, will be treated with no less strict regard (inaudible). That place actually (inaudible) World Heritage Site.  Yes, (inaudible) have been officially (inaudible). And people are living there peacefully while ensuring the environment is not jeopardised. Here is the crystal clear that man and nature can live harmoniously together. The argument (inaudible).

This situation cannot and should not be repeated. The future of the Chagos, be it conservation, be it political status, be it compensation, cannot take without the Chagossians being a key, essential stakeholder from start to finish. This a position of principle. We must be consulted properly and not treated as (inaudible). 

And I would like to cite all those who have been working hard to make this forum a success. We want, we need to know who is at our side. We are not acting on any government because we Chagossians know about our difficulties. But what I have to say is that together we can and together we will. We must have, we must have, we must dedicate to do that. Everything should be in accordance. We must know who is against us. We are not making any mistakes. Our fundamental rights have been banished by the British government and by others. It’s clear. But we need to know who is our enemies. [Continues in Kreol]

[Audience member asks question in Kreol]

Olivier Bancoult: [Continues in Kreol]

[Audience member asks question in Kreol]

Olivier Bancoult: [Continues in Kreol]

[Audience murmur]
 
[Applause]

[Audience discussion]

Ben Fogle: Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed colleagues, I would like to thank you all very much for coming today, particularly a lot of the conservation and environmental groups, I really appreciate all of you coming and I regret any personal attacks on individual organisations. I would just like to thank you all for being here. Thank you also to the Islanders, for coming so far to be here today. We understand your frustrations. We understand your frustrations. And together we can win. Today’s debate was open and honest and it was about clearing the air and I hope that you will take something away from this and you will understand that together we can win. There’s an old saying: divide and conquer. The reverse of that is unite and succeed. I’ll leave you with that thought. But to leave us on a thoroughly nice note, we’ve got Ifield Community College Choir, which it would be very nice to be quiet for. Jason here is going to come up and he’s going to introduce this wonderful choir in Kreol. Jason, would you like to come up?

Jason: [Speaks in Kreol]

[Applause]

Patrick Allen (Ifield Community College Choir Choirmaster): We’ll be two minutes. Please don’t go because they’ve come up from Crawley to do this, thank you. 

[Ifield Community College Choir perform drumming]

Patrick Allen: Okay, this one is called ‘The Storm is Passing Over’ and it’s a song about exile actually, but it’s also about working your way through troubled times. So here we go. 

[Ifield Community College Choir perform song]

Patrick Allen: OK the next one is ‘Calling my Children Home’. This is a song also about exile and it’s a very quiet and moving song arranged from an American spiritual scholar. 

[Ifield Community College Choir perform song]

[Applause and cheering]

Patrick Allen: We are all from Crawley and Crawley is a town where there’s a lot happening now. And this a cross-section of our school and about a third of our choir is from the Chagossian community, and our drumming group, which we’ve had going for a couple of years now, all started when Andy arrived and he showed his skills on the ravanne and then his other friends joined in and it’s all gone from there. It’s absolutely fantastic for us to have the Chagossian community in our school and in our community. It’s been really wonderful. And it’s great to show you. We’ve got a lot of events coming up this summer. We’ve got a BBC prom in the park. I hope you can come to that. It’s all on our website. And the students have got leaflets about what we do so you can hear more on the website and so on. But thank you very much for hearing us. Thank you. 

[Applause. Conference closes]

—END OF TRANSCRIPT—